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Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
On October 08 2021 13:23 xM(Z wrote:
the virus does not avoid vaccinated people.
the vaccine doesn't create a shield around vaccinated people that prevents them from catching covid.
if someone infects you, vaccinated or not, the virus gets in you.
While this is true, it is also kind of misleading. Sure, viruses get in. But in any virus infection, the viruses that get in themselves are rarely the problem. What is problematic and make you sick are the generations and generations of their offspring hijacking cells in your body until your immune response eventually takes them all out.
When you are vaccinated, the immune response is ready much earlier, and thus takes those multiplying generations of viruses out much quicker, often before you get sick.
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On October 08 2021 13:23 xM(Z wrote:
the virus does not avoid vaccinated people.
the vaccine doesn't create a shield around vaccinated people that prevents them from catching covid.
if someone infects you, vaccinated or not, the virus gets in you.
Its not 0 or 1. More protection means your body fights it better and your outcome is better. This is like saying if 1 soldier gets over the border, it is the same as being invaded. If an army of 1000 attacks, it is not equivalent to 1,000,000.
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On October 08 2021 13:33 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2021 13:23 xM(Z wrote:
the virus does not avoid vaccinated people.
the vaccine doesn't create a shield around vaccinated people that prevents them from catching covid.
if someone infects you, vaccinated or not, the virus gets in you. While this is true, it is also kind of misleading. Sure, viruses get in. But in any virus infection, the viruses that get in themselves are rarely the problem. What is problematic and make you sick are the generations and generations of their offspring hijacking cells in your body until your immune response eventually takes them all out. When you are vaccinated, the immune response is ready much earlier, and thus takes those multiplying generations of viruses out much quicker, often before you get sick.
Yes, getting virus into your body and being infected are 2 different things. The severety of the infection also matters.
The vaccines don't create a virus shield, but they do a damn good job at preventing us from becoming virus super-factories, making less virus present in the first place.
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On October 08 2021 13:33 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2021 13:23 xM(Z wrote:
the virus does not avoid vaccinated people.
the vaccine doesn't create a shield around vaccinated people that prevents them from catching covid.
if someone infects you, vaccinated or not, the virus gets in you. While this is true, it is also kind of misleading. Sure, viruses get in. But in any virus infection, the viruses that get in themselves are rarely the problem. What is problematic and make you sick are the generations and generations of their offspring hijacking cells in your body until your immune response eventually takes them all out. When you are vaccinated, the immune response is ready much earlier, and thus takes those multiplying generations of viruses out much quicker, often before you get sick.
Virus = Zerg Roach/ Ravager allin attacking you
Not vaccinated = You have a bunker full of Marines
Vaccinated = You have a tank line set up with liberators and a 100 supply of 3/3 Marine Marauder Medivac
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Has anyone had a 3rd (booster) vaccine yet? Im thinking of getting one for myself, so curious how did it go for you?
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On October 08 2021 12:13 RKC wrote:
It's fair for people to seek more info on the causal relation between side effects (or lack thereof) with efficacy. To allow people to moderate their behaviour. Some of my friends who recently got the jab also had little or no side effect, and prefer to stay home as much as possible to avoid being higher risk carriers and infecting others. Not sure if they are overreacting. That's why clarity from health authorities would be nice. Yeah, its a perfectly normal question and there could be some more attention to answering it from authorities.
I heard it come by on the radio at some point but not seen/heard much else about it.
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On October 08 2021 17:36 FreakyDroid wrote:
Has anyone had a 3rd (booster) vaccine yet? Im thinking of getting one for myself, so curious how did it go for you?
Mine went great. My reaction was similar to my first. Just felt kinda crummy throughout the day but nothing major.
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On October 08 2021 13:33 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2021 13:23 xM(Z wrote:
the virus does not avoid vaccinated people.
the vaccine doesn't create a shield around vaccinated people that prevents them from catching covid.
if someone infects you, vaccinated or not, the virus gets in you. While this is true, it is also kind of misleading. Sure, viruses get in. But in any virus infection, the viruses that get in themselves are rarely the problem. What is problematic and make you sick are the generations and generations of their offspring hijacking cells in your body until your immune response eventually takes them all out. When you are vaccinated, the immune response is ready much earlier, and thus takes those multiplying generations of viruses out much quicker, often before you get sick. sure, but i don't think it's misleading. i mean, you got it, others somewhat got it ...
there are other things here way more misleading.
Ex: the protection offered from being infected+cured/healed 'naturally', is better than the one obtain via vaccines; but a vaccinated person can still get the full benefits(more/better ways by which the virus is detected/dealt with) of being infected by the actual/live virus when what i said in my previous post, happens.
the misleading part here is that the success is wholly attributed to the vaccine while your own immune system that does all that extra work gets ignored.
stupid(reactive) people panic, overreact then drink bleach 'cause you make them feel defenseless.
(we can argue here about percentages of X people in Y categories, and about 'small' 'little' white lies that are needed because <exceptional circumstance>, but the point will still be valid.)
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'natural' immunity is not superior to vaccination, in fact the opposite is true. Even people who were previously infected and recovered should get their vaccinations because it significantly helps prevent re-infection.
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html
Ironic that in a post where you complain about people misleading, you mislead people.
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On October 09 2021 01:14 Gorsameth wrote:'natural' immunity is not superior to vaccination, in fact the opposite is true. Even people who were previously infected and recovered should get their vaccinations because it significantly helps prevent re-infection. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.htmlIronic that in a post where you complain about people misleading, you mislead people.
This is not true. Natural immunity IS superior and its proved already. Less than 1% of people with natural immunity get reinfected and you cant even compare with vaccine immunity.
EVEN if its true what about if you are vaccinated and you get infected like myself right now? I've gotten my 2nd shot 10 weeks ago and im recovering from covid right now. Should i get a 3rd shot and then get vaccinated every 4 months till the rest of my life?
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On October 09 2021 01:37 SkelA wrote:This is not true. Natural immunity IS superior and its proved already. Less than 1% of people with natural immunity get reinfected and you cant even compare with vaccine immunity. EVEN if its true what about if you are vaccinated and you get infected like myself right now? I've gotten my 2nd shot 10 weeks ago and im recovering from covid right now. Should i get a 3rd shot and then get vaccinated every 4 months till the rest of my life?
What negative connotations do you think having people getting booster shots has? I'm genuinely curious about what misinformation people are spreading about getting booster shots and why the time frame for the intervals of getting them is always much shorter than anyone is proposing.
Also why do you think you making a statement somehow contradicts the source that someone else provides and are you aware people get a new flu shot every year?
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I would also like to add that the vaccine makes it a lot safer to get the immunity after infection.
If you are vaccinated, you are far less likely to have serious consequences from getting the virus. I think it is likely that even with vaccinations, everyone will eventually get infected. If that is the case, it is a lot better to get infected after being vaccinated instead of getting infected without being vaccinated.
So even if you think that your immunity after getting infected is better (I think this is not as fringe of a position as people make it out, our top corona guy in Germany Drosden also mentioned that (I think he specifically spoke about immunity after getting infected after vaccination being better than immunity just after infection, though)), getting vaccinated is still a very good idea.
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Article from today about it:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/prior-infection-vs-vaccination-why-everyone-should-get-a-covid-19-shot/
In one study Ars reported on back in June of last year, researchers looking at SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in people who had recovered found that the difference between the highest and lowest levels varied by a factor of over 1,000. The researchers saw even more variability when they looked at neutralizing antibodies—those known to bind to the virus and prevent it from infecting cells. Neutralizing antibody levels in recovered people varied over a range of 40,000-fold, and up to 20 percent of people didn't have any detectable level of neutralizing antibody.
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The CDC researchers found that people previously infected but unvaccinated were 2.34 times more likely to get reinfected than people who were previously infected and fully vaccinated.
Yes, potentially you could be protected. You could also have little protection as well.
Get your fucking vaccine, it reliably protects you, to an extent that an earlier infection does not.
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On October 09 2021 04:14 Simberto wrote:
I would also like to add that the vaccine makes it a lot safer to get the immunity after infection.
If you are vaccinated, you are far less likely to have serious consequences from getting the virus. I think it is likely that even with vaccinations, everyone will eventually get infected. If that is the case, it is a lot better to get infected after being vaccinated instead of getting infected without being vaccinated.
So even if you think that your immunity after getting infected is better (I think this is not as fringe of a position as people make it out, our top corona guy in Germany Drosden also mentioned that (I think he specifically spoke about immunity after getting infected after vaccination being better than immunity just after infection, though)), getting vaccinated is still a very good idea.
It's hard to find any info on whether breaktrough infections improve your immunity and by how much (compared to just vaccines). Anyone know any good sources? But if that was the plan for herd immunity surely we would heave heard about it? Must be unlikely then?
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Lmui just yesterday posted a study done in BC that shows far higher death rates among the unvaccinated, including age groups all the way down to 20 years.
Studies on this have been conducted in other parts of the world, too. Here's one from the US showing that the rate of death is 11 times greater among unvaccinated people as compared to fully vaccinated people. Hospitalization among vaccinated people is 10 times less likely and infection is 5 times less likely.
And that is despite findings that protection offered by vaccines has gone down since the Delta variant became dominant. According to the numbers, the vaccines are still highly effective.
https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2282
Furthermore, natural immunity is also shown to be less than optimal. It makes sense that previously infected people get vaccinated to boost their immunity.
Here's an important quote:
Q: "For those who have already had COVID-19 in the past, why would a vaccine still be necessary?"
A: "The vaccines still lower your risks. We have evidence showing that if you've been naturally infected with COVID-19 and you aren't vaccinated, your risk of getting reinfected with symptomatic disease is about 2.5–fold higher. When you introduce the vaccine to someone who's already had COVID-19, the body says, "Hey, I remember that, I'm going to stimulate the immune response so you're protected." You're pumping up your antibodies to higher levels so they can stop the virus before it enters your system."
https://hub.jhu.edu/2021/09/10/infection-from-covid-vs-vaccines/
Basically this compares to how we memorize the things we learn. We remember things better if we repeat them every so often, and it seems that the immune system works in a similar way.
Another quote from that article:
"With the delta variant, we're seeing many more young people on ventilators in hospitals and dying, Durbin says. And declining the vaccine is more than just a personal decision: An infected person can easily transmit the virus to others, including immunocompromised people at higher risk for grave illness and children under 12 who can't yet access the vaccines."
So vaccines also save the lives and health of young people. I know, the go-to response to that is "I'm healthy, so I don't need to worry". First of all we don't know if that's actually true, so you're still gambling with your health. Secondly, vaccination doesn't enhance your risk of infection, so why spend more time arguing to stay unvaccinated than actually getting vaccinated? Also consider that your words have an effect on others, who then might choose to stay unvaccinated, too. It seems irresponsible to me.
And if you do get infected and you don't get meaningful health issues, you're still infectious to others, who are then at risk. So from that viewpoint it still makes sense to get vaccinated because then there's a reasonable chance that you won't infect others (if you can fight off the infection before it spreads in your body). The research on that isn't quite conclusive yet, but I'm beginning to believe that this is in fact true (and it would make sense, because most vaccines in general reduce transmission rates).
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Some more information's coming out on myocarditis from mRNA vaccines. Seems likely that the cause of it is accidental injection of vaccine into a vein instead of being intramuscular, at least in mice models. Given the rarity of the events, it's probably an avenue to explore for the mRNA, and other vaccine types as well (maybe it also causes the clots in AZ? If better injection training can be done to prevent mycarditis and clots, we might be able to start using other vaccines more widely.
Results: Though significant weight loss and higher serum cytokine/chemokine levels were found in IM group at 1 to 2 days post-injection(dpi), only IV group developed histopathological changes of myopericarditis as evidenced by cardiomyocyte degeneration, apoptosis and necrosis with adjacent inflammatory cell infiltration and calcific deposits on visceral pericardium, while evidence of coronary artery or other cardiac pathologies was absent.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34406358/
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On October 09 2021 04:52 teeel141 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2021 04:14 Simberto wrote:
I would also like to add that the vaccine makes it a lot safer to get the immunity after infection.
If you are vaccinated, you are far less likely to have serious consequences from getting the virus. I think it is likely that even with vaccinations, everyone will eventually get infected. If that is the case, it is a lot better to get infected after being vaccinated instead of getting infected without being vaccinated.
So even if you think that your immunity after getting infected is better (I think this is not as fringe of a position as people make it out, our top corona guy in Germany Drosden also mentioned that (I think he specifically spoke about immunity after getting infected after vaccination being better than immunity just after infection, though)), getting vaccinated is still a very good idea. It's hard to find any info on whether breaktrough infections improve your immunity and by how much (compared to just vaccines). Anyone know any good sources? But if that was the plan for herd immunity surely we would heave heard about it? Must be unlikely then?
More exposure to (blank) will always improve your body's ability to fight (blank) unless it is fundamentally unable to fight (blank) as is the case with HIV. The reason a 3rd dose drastically increases antibody levels is your body realizing this is a persistent issue that needs to be treated as something more serious and permanent. This is a fundamental part of immunology. I could link you textbooks.
The more likely outcome is that we get our covid booster each year with our flu vax. If delta ends up being the final major strain, as appears to be the case (knocks on wood), it will likely be sufficient to just get a booster each year. As it currently stands, I don't intend to get a 4th dose in a few months. I would get a 4th dose in 3 months if I thought this was going to be more persistent.
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On October 08 2021 16:36 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2021 13:33 Simberto wrote:On October 08 2021 13:23 xM(Z wrote:
the virus does not avoid vaccinated people.
the vaccine doesn't create a shield around vaccinated people that prevents them from catching covid.
if someone infects you, vaccinated or not, the virus gets in you. While this is true, it is also kind of misleading. Sure, viruses get in. But in any virus infection, the viruses that get in themselves are rarely the problem. What is problematic and make you sick are the generations and generations of their offspring hijacking cells in your body until your immune response eventually takes them all out. When you are vaccinated, the immune response is ready much earlier, and thus takes those multiplying generations of viruses out much quicker, often before you get sick. Yes, getting virus into your body and being infected are 2 different things. The severety of the infection also matters.
That's wrong.
The virus being in your body means you are infected, you don't need to have symptoms or anything. What you mean is the difference between being infected and having a breakout.
Or, to be more precise, you're talking about "viral load". You can have the virus in you, but not enough to get it over a certain threshold needed to "get ill". In short, the higher the viral load, the worse your infection becomes. But you're "infected" the second the virus enters your body, regardless of "how much virus".
https://www.medicinenet.com/infection/definition.htm
https://www.news-medical.net/health/What-is-Viral-Load.aspx
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On October 09 2021 06:19 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2021 16:36 Slydie wrote:On October 08 2021 13:33 Simberto wrote:On October 08 2021 13:23 xM(Z wrote:
the virus does not avoid vaccinated people.
the vaccine doesn't create a shield around vaccinated people that prevents them from catching covid.
if someone infects you, vaccinated or not, the virus gets in you. While this is true, it is also kind of misleading. Sure, viruses get in. But in any virus infection, the viruses that get in themselves are rarely the problem. What is problematic and make you sick are the generations and generations of their offspring hijacking cells in your body until your immune response eventually takes them all out. When you are vaccinated, the immune response is ready much earlier, and thus takes those multiplying generations of viruses out much quicker, often before you get sick. Yes, getting virus into your body and being infected are 2 different things. The severety of the infection also matters. That's wrong. The virus being in your body means you are infected, you don't need to have symptoms or anything. What you mean is the difference between being infected and having a breakout. Or, to be more precise, you're talking about "viral load". You can have the virus in you, but not enough to get it over a certain threshold needed to "get ill". In short, the higher the viral load, the worse your infection becomes. But you're "infected" the second the virus enters your body, regardless of "how much virus". https://www.medicinenet.com/infection/definition.htmhttps://www.news-medical.net/health/What-is-Viral-Load.aspx
An infection by a virus requires two steps: active virus entering a host AND also entering the host's cell(s). Both conditions need to be met. Without the latter, there's no infection. When the second stage happens, the cell(s) produce more virus, which then gets released with a chance to infect more cells.
Vaccines are meant to train a host to prevent the second stage specifically (the invasion of cells by a virus). Sometimes the host can prevent the infection altogether, sometimes it only reduces the severity of an infection (i.e. minimizes the outbreak and/or the symptoms of it). In the latter case an infection has taken place. In the former case it hasn't, even though the virus is inside the host.
Vaccines do NOT prevent the entering of virus matter into a host altogether. Anyone - vaccinated or not - can breathe in virus matter (or trough other means, depending on the virus).
tl;dr active virus entering a host does NOT by itself constitute an infection. The host's cells being invaded must be part of that process.
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EPT
