EPTOregon sports teams requiring vaccination in order to attend. The trend is clearly going that direction. More and more businesses will adopt this. We will continue to choke out anti-vax through financial and cultural pressure.
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
Oregon sports teams requiring vaccination in order to attend. The trend is clearly going that direction. More and more businesses will adopt this. We will continue to choke out anti-vax through financial and cultural pressure. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On August 18 2021 07:02 Mohdoo wrote: https://www.oregonlive.com/sports/2021/08/portland-timbers-and-thorns-will-require-proof-of-covid-19-vaccination-for-entry-at-providence-park.html Oregon sports teams requiring vaccination in order to attend. The trend is clearly going that direction. More and more businesses will adopt this. We will continue to choke out anti-vax through financial and cultural pressure. I like this approach more than holding them down to be honest. I'd rather ostracize than radicalize. With how covid is now, the ends really justify the means with respect to vaccination. We aren't likely getting out of this without having at least 4/5 people fully vaccinated, in addition to the unvaccinated people catching it. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46206 Posts
On August 18 2021 07:19 Amui wrote: I like this approach more than holding them down to be honest. I'd rather ostracize than radicalize. With how covid is now, the ends really justify the means with respect to vaccination. We aren't likely getting out of this without having at least 4/5 people fully vaccinated, in addition to the unvaccinated people catching it. Yeah, the more inconveniences that unvaccinated people end up experiencing, the more likely they'll cave to social pressure and do the right thing, even if they only do it for selfish reasons. For example, in my school, vaccinated teachers can freely travel to other states without needing to quarantine upon return; while unvaccinated teachers need to jump through a bunch of additional hoops just so they won't need to quarantine. Additionally, if unvaccinated teachers need to quarantine, then they need to use their sick days to cover those out-of-school days (even if they teach remotely, from home, like we all did last year), which is pretty much the ultimate consequence for teachers. Vaccinated teachers don't need to use their sick days in those scenarios. If vaccinations aren't going to be mandatory, at least provide benefits/rewards for those who are vaccinated, and costs/punishments for those who are not. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On August 18 2021 07:19 Amui wrote: I like this approach more than holding them down to be honest. I'd rather ostracize than radicalize. With how covid is now, the ends really justify the means with respect to vaccination. We aren't likely getting out of this without having at least 4/5 people fully vaccinated, in addition to the unvaccinated people catching it. If keeping anti-vax out of restaurants, bars, offices and everything else works, great. If it doesn't work, hold them down or deport them. If we had other options, I would advocate for those. Nothing else is working. At one point you need to escalate. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On August 18 2021 08:29 Mohdoo wrote: If keeping anti-vax out of restaurants, bars, offices and everything else works, great. If it doesn't work, hold them down or deport them. If we had other options, I would advocate for those. Nothing else is working. At one point you need to escalate. I hope you realize that your position is not only controversial, but also radical. It's one thing to create incentives for people (that don't result in them being unable to function respectably in society), it's another to enforce a medical procedure on them. If you realize that it's a radical position, then please also understand that people will rightfully give you a lot of pushback. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27201 Posts
On August 18 2021 13:28 Magic Powers wrote: I hope you realize that your position is not only controversial, but also radical. It's one thing to create incentives for people (that don't result in them being unable to function respectably in society), it's another to enforce a medical procedure on them. If you realize that it's a radical position, then please also understand that people will rightfully give you a lot of pushback. It’s great, libertarians love to espouse that collective desires and market forces will naturally gravitate to the best outcomes, so it’s quite funny to see them being so resistant to the market speaking here. In a more sober sense, yeah. Minus some new even worse variant arising, I’m not sure it’s quite that bad to do things like enforced vaccinations. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On August 18 2021 13:28 Magic Powers wrote: I hope you realize that your position is not only controversial, but also radical. It's one thing to create incentives for people (that don't result in them being unable to function respectably in society), it's another to enforce a medical procedure on them. If you realize that it's a radical position, then please also understand that people will rightfully give you a lot of pushback. I wouldn't say that bothers me really. I think most people have incredibly naive, uneducated perspectives. I don't really suffer in any way when people disagree with me. | ||
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Geisterkarle
Germany3257 Posts
But keeping customers out of their businesses because of ... reasons ... I'm not sure! Or because of free markets, shops are allowed to do "no blacks"? Or is that racist and not allowed? But medical conditons? So, "no entry if in wheelchair" would be ok? I would tread very lightly! | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On August 18 2021 14:14 Mohdoo wrote: I wouldn't say that bothers me really. I think most people have incredibly naive, uneducated perspectives. I don't really suffer in any way when people disagree with me. My father isn't "uneducated" or "naive", and yet he doesn't want to get vaccinated and he believes it's wrong to force people to get vaccinated. It's not about education. The people who are in support of vaccines aren't necessarily better educated about vaccines. Maybe on average they are, I don't know, but certainly not in all individual cases. There are also cases where pro-vaxxers are less educated than anti-vaxxers. Many people choose to get vaccinated simply because they happen to believe that it's the best choice. Their justification for that belief is often as flimsy and "uneducated" as the justification for those who abstain. When there exist two equally bad paths of reasoning, it's certainly possible that one of these paths leads to a good conclusion while the other leads to a bad conclusion. The reasoning would then still be equally bad in both cases, one just so happens to end more favorably. This has nothing to do with education. Sure, at the most radical ends do we see a very clear problem with misinsformation. But the people in between typically have reasonable arguments, regardless of what they choose to do for themselves at the end. The reason is that most people, pro- and anti-vaxxers alike, receive their information about vaccination from interpreters of science, and not directly from scientific papers. How would people know which interpretation is valid and which one isn't? For that they'd have to read the papers. To people who have significantly greater than average insight into viruses, epidemics, vaccination, etc. it may seem as if people are uneducated only on one side, not the other. But that perception is biased, because we've already come to a conclusion from the evidence. The conclusion could've been very different, from very similar looking data. The devil's in the details. We're judging this from hindsight, having the advantage of additional insight. Many people don't have the time, interest or means (that includes pro-vaxxers) to figure it out for themselves, so they decide to simplify the process and go with the flow. That flow can lead to many different, often contradictory conclusions. It seems obvious to think people who disagree are just ignorant or naive. But often that's not the real reason. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On August 18 2021 15:01 Geisterkarle wrote: I'm basically waiting for someone to go to court to stop this "gatekeeping"! Where is the law that allows keeping people outside? Companies wanting their workes vaccinated could be possible, but I expect lawsuits too. And it will not be clear who wins... But keeping customers out of their businesses because of ... reasons ... I'm not sure! Or because of free markets, shops are allowed to do "no blacks"? Or is that racist and not allowed? But medical conditons? So, "no entry if in wheelchair" would be ok? I would tread very lightly! I see it as no different from a drunk, unruly customer at a restaurant/bar. Bars/restaurants have a right to "discriminate" by kicking people out if they are being disruptive/harmful towards others. I am not sure why unvaccinated people should be a protected class to begin with. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On August 18 2021 15:33 Magic Powers wrote: My father isn't "uneducated" or "naive", and yet he doesn't want to get vaccinated and he believes it's wrong to force people to get vaccinated. It's not about education. The people who are in support of vaccines aren't necessarily better educated about vaccines. Maybe on average they are, I don't know, but certainly not in all individual cases. There are also cases where pro-vaxxers are less educated than anti-vaxxers. Many people choose to get vaccinated simply because they happen to believe that it's the best choice. Their justification for that belief is often as flimsy and "uneducated" as the justification for those who abstain. When there exist two equally bad paths of reasoning, it's certainly possible that one of these paths leads to a good conclusion while the other leads to a bad conclusion. The reasoning would then still be equally bad in both cases, one just so happens to end more favorably. This has nothing to do with education. Sure, at the most radical ends do we see a very clear problem with misinsformation. But the people in between typically have reasonable arguments, regardless of what they choose to do for themselves at the end. The reason is that most people, pro- and anti-vaxxers alike, receive their information about vaccination from interpreters of science, and not directly from scientific papers. How would people know which interpretation is valid and which one isn't? For that they'd have to read the papers. To people who have significantly greater than average insight into viruses, epidemics, vaccination, etc. it may seem as if people are uneducated only on one side, not the other. But that perception is biased, because we've already come to a conclusion from the evidence. The conclusion could've been very different, from very similar looking data. The devil's in the details. We're judging this from hindsight, having the advantage of additional insight. Many people don't have the time, interest or means (that includes pro-vaxxers) to figure it out for themselves, so they decide to simplify the process and go with the flow. That flow can lead to many different, often contradictory conclusions. It seems obvious to think people who disagree are just ignorant or naive. But often that's not the real reason. I'm sure you've had a wonderful life with your dad but he's either naive or uneducated if he doesn't want to get vaccinated. If he had a complete knowledge of the biochemistry of mRNA vaccines and the epidemiology of covid, he would be vaccinated. There's really just not 2 ways to it. Either he lacks information or he's got major issues with decision making. People can accidentally make the right decision while being uneducated by not being naive. Plenty of dumbasses who say "I don't know shit, but the scientists tell me to do it, so I'm doing it". Totally valid perspective. In a world of unknowns, the scientists will always have more information than anyone else. If your dad has failed to apply that kind of logic, I don't really know what to say. Trying to be polite here. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
If my theory that delta's primary mechanism of chaos is extremely high concentrations, makes sense why fresh 3rd vax is really helpful. Also explains why fully vaxed people still getting dumpstered in certain cases. Simplified explanation: think of vaccines as a hole in a bucket. Large holes in the bucket make it easier to prevent the bucket from getting full. But if you have a really huge source of water filling the bucket, if the holes in the bucket aren't big enough, the bucket fills up. Vaccines help your body have a robust antibody response, meaning you actively fight covid really strongly when it shows up. But what if there is just an insane amount of covid in you? That would mean the vaccine helped you a ton but you still ended up in a "bad" position. Way better than without vax. So if you are vaccinated but you spend the weekend with someone who is very infectious, only so much a vaccine can do. If you're essentially butt chugging covid, you're gonna get sick. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5837 Posts
On August 18 2021 15:01 Geisterkarle wrote: I'm basically waiting for someone to go to court to stop this "gatekeeping"! Where is the law that allows keeping people outside? Companies wanting their workes vaccinated could be possible, but I expect lawsuits too. And it will not be clear who wins... But keeping customers out of their businesses because of ... reasons ... I'm not sure! Or because of free markets, shops are allowed to do "no blacks"? Or is that racist and not allowed? But medical conditons? So, "no entry if in wheelchair" would be ok? I would tread very lightly! A car rental company has the right to not rent its car to a drunk person. The logic is similar here. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4427 Posts
On August 18 2021 14:14 Mohdoo wrote: I wouldn't say that bothers me really. I think most people have incredibly naive, uneducated perspectives. I don't really suffer in any way when people disagree with me. So in a country with 100 million gun owners, capable of owning military grade weapons, would you like to go door to door injecting them against their will? Who is naive here? | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On August 18 2021 15:54 Mohdoo wrote: Alabama reporting 12% of people in the hospital for covid are fully vaccinated: https://www.wsfa.com/2021/08/17/alabama-has-negative-icu-beds-available/ If my theory that delta's primary mechanism of chaos is extremely high concentrations, makes sense why fresh 3rd vax is really helpful. Also explains why fully vaxed people still getting dumpstered in certain cases. Simplified explanation: think of vaccines as a hole in a bucket. Large holes in the bucket make it easier to prevent the bucket from getting full. But if you have a really huge source of water filling the bucket, if the holes in the bucket aren't big enough, the bucket fills up. Vaccines help your body have a robust antibody response, meaning you actively fight covid really strongly when it shows up. But what if there is just an insane amount of covid in you? That would mean the vaccine helped you a ton but you still ended up in a "bad" position. Way better than without vax. So if you are vaccinated but you spend the weekend with someone who is very infectious, only so much a vaccine can do. If you're essentially butt chugging covid, you're gonna get sick. This is what a lot of people here don't understand. "I DON'T HAVE TO WASH MY HANDS OR WEAR A MASK BECAUSE I'M VACCINATED" is the prevalent view here. Add to that that people who wanted to spend the summer abroad were encouraged to get vaccinated. It caused long queues (wtf in itself) of young people, preventing the people most at risk from getting a turn for vaccination. It's just such a shitshow that I'm speechless. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On August 18 2021 15:39 Mohdoo wrote: I'm sure you've had a wonderful life with your dad but he's either naive or uneducated if he doesn't want to get vaccinated. If he had a complete knowledge of the biochemistry of mRNA vaccines and the epidemiology of covid, he would be vaccinated. There's really just not 2 ways to it. Either he lacks information or he's got major issues with decision making. People can accidentally make the right decision while being uneducated by not being naive. Plenty of dumbasses who say "I don't know shit, but the scientists tell me to do it, so I'm doing it". Totally valid perspective. In a world of unknowns, the scientists will always have more information than anyone else. If your dad has failed to apply that kind of logic, I don't really know what to say. Trying to be polite here. There are a number of virologists who draw false conclusions from the current studies. One of them says that children should not receive the new vaccines, while instead advocating for them to get infected naturally. I strongly disagree with her conclusion and I'm completely convinced she must've misread the research. But that shows how easy it is for scientists to get something wrong while inspecting the data. Her name is Christine Stabell Benn, a 52-year-old "professor of global health at the University of Southern Denmark and long-time researcher in vaccines", according to this article: https://www.bt.dk/debat/professor-det-er-godt-for-immuniteten-at-boern-faar-corona You can read more about her credentials here: https://danish-ias.dk/people/christine-stabell-benn-danish-ias/ Do you understand now why this is not as simple as people being uneducated? Many of the people who conclude that the vaccines are potentially dangerous receive their information from experts. This is why they don't want to vaccinate their children, and it's why they remain hesitant to get vaccinated themselves. It's not them being uneducated, they're being mislead. Ironically by some experts, who apparently rely on outdated ideas. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22454 Posts
On August 18 2021 15:01 Geisterkarle wrote: I have no clue of the legal side of things but for my personal opinion the difference is choice.I'm basically waiting for someone to go to court to stop this "gatekeeping"! Where is the law that allows keeping people outside? Companies wanting their workes vaccinated could be possible, but I expect lawsuits too. And it will not be clear who wins... But keeping customers out of their businesses because of ... reasons ... I'm not sure! Or because of free markets, shops are allowed to do "no blacks"? Or is that racist and not allowed? But medical conditons? So, "no entry if in wheelchair" would be ok? I would tread very lightly! race, gender, sexual orientation. Those things are not a choice. anti-vaxxers, outside of those unable to do so for medical reasons, are making an active conscience choice not to be vaccinated. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22454 Posts
On August 18 2021 18:07 Magic Powers wrote: Some American states running out of paediatric beds because of Covid makes me think that having Covid parties for kids instead of vaccinations is probably a really bad idea...There are a number of virologists who draw false conclusions from the current studies. One of them says that children should not receive the new vaccines, while instead advocating for them to get infected naturally. I strongly disagree with her conclusion and I'm completely convinced she must've misread the research. But that shows how easy it is for scientists to get something wrong while inspecting the data. Her name is Christine Stabell Benn, a 52-year-old "professor of global health at the University of Southern Denmark and long-time researcher in vaccines", according to this article: https://www.bt.dk/debat/professor-det-er-godt-for-immuniteten-at-boern-faar-corona You can read more about her credentials here: https://danish-ias.dk/people/christine-stabell-benn-danish-ias/ Do you understand now why this is not as simple as people being uneducated? Many of the people who conclude that the vaccines are potentially dangerous receive their information from experts. This is why they don't want to vaccinate their children, and it's why they remain hesitant to get vaccinated themselves. It's not them being uneducated, they're being mislead. Ironically by some experts, who apparently rely on outdated ideas. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28854 Posts
On August 18 2021 18:07 Magic Powers wrote: There are a number of virologists who draw false conclusions from the current studies. One of them says that children should not receive the new vaccines, while instead advocating for them to get infected naturally. I strongly disagree with her conclusion and I'm completely convinced she must've misread the research. But that shows how easy it is for scientists to get something wrong while inspecting the data. Her name is Christine Stabell Benn, a 52-year-old "professor of global health at the University of Southern Denmark and long-time researcher in vaccines", according to this article: https://www.bt.dk/debat/professor-det-er-godt-for-immuniteten-at-boern-faar-corona You can read more about her credentials here: https://danish-ias.dk/people/christine-stabell-benn-danish-ias/ Do you understand now why this is not as simple as people being uneducated? Many of the people who conclude that the vaccines are potentially dangerous receive their information from experts. This is why they don't want to vaccinate their children, and it's why they remain hesitant to get vaccinated themselves. It's not them being uneducated, they're being mislead. Ironically by some experts, who apparently rely on outdated ideas. Which is why the rational thing to do is to go by scientific consensus, not by individuals with some scientific credentials. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On August 18 2021 18:13 Liquid`Drone wrote: Which is why the rational thing to do is to go by scientific consensus, not by individuals with some scientific credentials. That argument would work if people knew what the scientific consensus is at all times. They can't know it, because they're getting informed by interpreters of science, not by scientists themselves. Those interpreters get things wrong way more than the scientists do, because they're often not experts in the respective field themselves, and they don't know how to select good information over bad information. When you look at the situation from that perspective, you can see why so much misinformation takes place. Irrationality is not necessarily what causes people to be anti-vaxx, one of the main reasons is that there's no perfect system that always conveys the best information to everyone. | ||
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