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On May 01 2021 09:16 JimmiC wrote:It looks like J&just is also having quality control issues. The Canadian JJ shipment is held afterAZ material found in, it was.mamufactured where they alsondo AZ. Had my AZ vaccine yesterday, side effects were pretty crappy but way less then covid and much shorter. I'm already feeling better I think I'll be 💯 tomorrow.
did you actually get covid?
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yeah this is the kind of shit that makes me want to rip my australian passport up and just move to korea. what a fucking embarrassment. this country has been low key socialist for a while but now this is just straight up communist dictatorship
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Norway28736 Posts
What? When did that happen? I think you're adding economic theories to your statements that have no relation to the chosen policies of your government - Morrison certainly isn't a socialist.
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On May 01 2021 19:05 Liquid`Drone wrote:
What? When did that happen? I think you're adding economic theories to your statements that have no relation to the chosen policies of your government - Morrison certainly isn't a socialist.
the socialism isnt to do with morrisons appointment as pm. its more to do with the terrible employment legislation, welfare policies and (lack of) regulation in major industries. all of this combined leads to a society where employees are less incentivised to work harder, small companies are discouraged from growing and the quality of everything we do is just shit. obviously government policy on immigration, infrastructure, energy and tech etc. also play a massive part and for many years not enough has been done.
not a discussion for this thread but theres a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes which make it clear australia is more socialist than people recognise, regardless of the whether the government intended it.
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That is all true but it still doesn’t have much to do with citizens potentially being jailed for just trying to return home.
Anyway yet another quarantine covid case via security guard here reported four hours ago by Premier McGowan.Guard was living with 7 (!) housemates in a property.Will reveal if there is another lockdown tomorrow.Why they keep these covid patients in Hotels in the middle of the CBD is still a mystery.
Should note it was McGowan who was pushing last week for the feds to bar all Indians from arriving, although the harsh penalties were the feds idea I guess.
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On May 01 2021 19:39 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2021 19:05 Liquid`Drone wrote:
What? When did that happen? I think you're adding economic theories to your statements that have no relation to the chosen policies of your government - Morrison certainly isn't a socialist. the socialism isnt to do with morrisons appointment as pm. its more to do with the terrible employment legislation, welfare policies and (lack of) regulation in major industries. all of this combined leads to a society where employees are less incentivised to work harder, small companies are discouraged from growing and the quality of everything we do is just shit. obviously government policy on immigration, infrastructure, energy and tech etc. also play a massive part and for many years not enough has been done. not a discussion for this thread but theres a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes which make it clear australia is more socialist than people recognise, regardless of the whether the government intended it.
I have to say that my impression is that brutal restrictions on people's freedoms during this pandemic come from all over the political spectrum, with a possible exception for the populist right.
I would not get into affiliations other wrongdoings you think your country's politicians do, there is more than enough to discuss
just focussing on this topic.
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On May 01 2021 20:12 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
That is all true but it still doesn’t have much to do with citizens potentially being jailed for just trying to return home.
Anyway yet another quarantine covid case via security guard here reported four hours ago by Premier McGowan.Guard was living with 7 (!) housemates in a property.Will reveal if there is another lockdown tomorrow.Why they keep these covid patients in Hotels in the middle of the CBD is still a mystery.
Should note it was McGowan who was pushing last week for the feds to bar all Indians from arriving, although the harsh penalties were the feds idea I guess.
yeah i just wanted to vent about our governments incompetence. quarantine control is supposed to be a federal responsibility but they delegated it to the states. then they refused to support the states and now rather than provide additional support to accommodate increased demand theyd rather just ban their own citizens from returning to the country and hope they dont die while they wait.
and somehow we will never see even a single picket sign in protest of these draconian measures
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On May 01 2021 22:22 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2021 17:34 evilfatsh1t wrote:On May 01 2021 09:16 JimmiC wrote:On May 01 2021 00:44 andrewlt wrote:Did a bit more digging and it does look like the issue with the Sputnik vaccine in Brazil is quality control. They found the cold virus used was able to replicate. That's a manufacturing error. https://apnews.com/article/health-global-trade-brazil-russia-business-b92f2914cc338beb44e594b6472cf42fHere in CA, a lot of people I know, including me, got the Moderna vaccine. They don't have the global reach that Pfizer has but I think they are doing really well for the countries that bought their vaccine. It looks like J&just is also having quality control issues. The Canadian JJ shipment is held afterAZ material found in, it was.mamufactured where they alsondo AZ. Had my AZ vaccine yesterday, side effects were pretty crappy but way less then covid and much shorter. I'm already feeling better I think I'll be 💯 tomorrow. did you actually get covid? Yes, and it was fucking awful, but no hospitalization needed. This week alone in my 100k city we had a 17 year old girl and 45 year old man with no prior heath conditions die. To the Australians complaining about the travel restrictions, we've had various restrictions for more than whole year AND people are still getting super sick. 0 covid I'm sure sucks, but not nearly as bad as the bend the curve or lets the virus run rampant. Also, socialism does not mean authoritarian, that can happen at both ends.
interesting. ive only heard of 2 other cases "around me" but both of them showed no symptoms.
we dont complain about the travel restrictions when its actually justified. when we had cases last year (still almost nothing compared to the rest of the world), you can accept that there will be restrictions. however when our daily cases in community transmission hits zero and the government still puts out announcements that even with a vaccination program there wont be borders reopening, then thats a problem.
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Okay, so I'll go on a little rant here because I'm completely fed up with how governments handle the situation.
Perhaps other people can chip in on what they think could be better.
Reports of people dying with no prior health condition always makes my skin crawl. Not having a medical record != ubderlying issues like slight hypertension or some kind of weird physiological manifestation that only surfaces because of this kind of infection. Granted, it's near impossible to check up on this, but this is an issue. We have people catching COVID who have no problems and we have people catching COVID dying. It's the same problem we face when therapeutics are developed. Only broad strokes are possible because niche cases of 1/1000000 where people get an aneurysm from a medicine cost too much money to investigate.
And here we reach a bullshit paradigm: finding out actual physiological mechanisms for why our bodies fail in these situations is mostly a waste of time and money. It's why certain therapies literally cost millions.
And this is, in my opinion, one of the key points of why we're handling this so poorly.
Governments can spend millions on labs trying to figure out the 'exact' pathophysiology of the virus-host interaction. They can also find out how genetics translates to people being more or less at risk: these sets of genes give you a more likely chance of having a worse outcome when contracting COVID.
There are obvious ethical issues here, but we've had lockdowns and curfues that weren't entirely morally and legislatively sound either, so I think a case can be made here.
My second big grievance is that we only retro-actively act on situations. We slowly see numbers go up and then roll out soft/hard measures. If governments had started random population testing (which is literally every statistician's wet dream), you'd have, next to numbers from local outbursts, a nice overview of silent spreaders. You can then map at risk subpopulations and take measures accordingly.
If you couple the course data (statistics at population level) with detailed data (at individual level), I think we'd be able to handle this Sars-cov2 thing way better. We'd be able to provide nuance to a society which desperately needs it, instead of broad stroking it and making these random decisions like opening up contact jobs like hair salons only to almost immediately close them after 2 weeks because things are getting worse again! It makes no sense at all.
How is it that schools only became big spreaders after the UK strain became prevalent in Belgium? Is it because it's the case? Or is it because the original strain spread more silently among teens and it went unnoticed? Random trials would have found out about this! Anonymous genetic/physiological tests could build an actual robust/nuanced model on risk factors instead of the "obsese/hypertension/elderly/frail lung" risk factors we have now.
Bottom line: governments could've done way more to be competent with pro-active moves, developing actual models instead of watching which numbers go up where and acting in a kneejerk fashion, throwing parts of society under the bus that shouldn't.
Contact tracing is a nice system though.
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On May 01 2021 22:22 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2021 17:34 evilfatsh1t wrote:On May 01 2021 09:16 JimmiC wrote:On May 01 2021 00:44 andrewlt wrote:Did a bit more digging and it does look like the issue with the Sputnik vaccine in Brazil is quality control. They found the cold virus used was able to replicate. That's a manufacturing error. https://apnews.com/article/health-global-trade-brazil-russia-business-b92f2914cc338beb44e594b6472cf42fHere in CA, a lot of people I know, including me, got the Moderna vaccine. They don't have the global reach that Pfizer has but I think they are doing really well for the countries that bought their vaccine. It looks like J&just is also having quality control issues. The Canadian JJ shipment is held afterAZ material found in, it was.mamufactured where they alsondo AZ. Had my AZ vaccine yesterday, side effects were pretty crappy but way less then covid and much shorter. I'm already feeling better I think I'll be 💯 tomorrow. did you actually get covid? Yes, and it was fucking awful, but no hospitalization needed. This week alone in my 100k city we had a 17 year old girl and 45 year old man with no prior heath conditions die. To the Australians complaining about the travel restrictions, we've had various restrictions for more than whole year AND people are still getting super sick. 0 covid I'm sure sucks, but not nearly as bad as the bend the curve or lets the virus run rampant. Also, socialism does not mean authoritarian, that can happen at both ends.
There's around 9000 Aus citizens in India where the disease is running rampant trying to get home, that are unable to get home because the govt has made it illegal.So the complaining... is just showing compassion for those stuck in a third world country in the current environment.But the feeling here about the new law is universal and i think it will be amended next week so I won't talk about it further.
As for yourself you've had COVID and you've had a pfizer vaccine (or both?) So after both do you still do the masks and the social distancing? At what point can you stop doing that.How much more immune can you get than that really.
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On May 01 2021 23:39 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2021 22:22 JimmiC wrote:On May 01 2021 17:34 evilfatsh1t wrote:On May 01 2021 09:16 JimmiC wrote:On May 01 2021 00:44 andrewlt wrote:Did a bit more digging and it does look like the issue with the Sputnik vaccine in Brazil is quality control. They found the cold virus used was able to replicate. That's a manufacturing error. https://apnews.com/article/health-global-trade-brazil-russia-business-b92f2914cc338beb44e594b6472cf42fHere in CA, a lot of people I know, including me, got the Moderna vaccine. They don't have the global reach that Pfizer has but I think they are doing really well for the countries that bought their vaccine. It looks like J&just is also having quality control issues. The Canadian JJ shipment is held afterAZ material found in, it was.mamufactured where they alsondo AZ. Had my AZ vaccine yesterday, side effects were pretty crappy but way less then covid and much shorter. I'm already feeling better I think I'll be 💯 tomorrow. did you actually get covid? Yes, and it was fucking awful, but no hospitalization needed. This week alone in my 100k city we had a 17 year old girl and 45 year old man with no prior heath conditions die. To the Australians complaining about the travel restrictions, we've had various restrictions for more than whole year AND people are still getting super sick. 0 covid I'm sure sucks, but not nearly as bad as the bend the curve or lets the virus run rampant. Also, socialism does not mean authoritarian, that can happen at both ends. There's around 9000 Aus citizens in India where the disease is running rampant trying to get home, that are unable to get home because the govt has made it illegal.So the complaining... is just showing compassion for those stuck in a third world country in the current environment.But the feeling here about the new law is universal and i think it will be amended next week so I won't talk about it further. As for yourself you've had COVID and you've had a pfizer vaccine (or both?) So after both do you still do the masks and the social distancing? At what point can you stop doing that.How much more immune can you get than that really. using masks and distancing after getting the vaccine isn't about your own immunity. Its about preventing that you spread it to others.
Just because you have been vaccinated doesn't mean you are now unable to spread it to others.
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On May 02 2021 00:07 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2021 23:39 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On May 01 2021 22:22 JimmiC wrote:On May 01 2021 17:34 evilfatsh1t wrote:On May 01 2021 09:16 JimmiC wrote:On May 01 2021 00:44 andrewlt wrote:Did a bit more digging and it does look like the issue with the Sputnik vaccine in Brazil is quality control. They found the cold virus used was able to replicate. That's a manufacturing error. https://apnews.com/article/health-global-trade-brazil-russia-business-b92f2914cc338beb44e594b6472cf42fHere in CA, a lot of people I know, including me, got the Moderna vaccine. They don't have the global reach that Pfizer has but I think they are doing really well for the countries that bought their vaccine. It looks like J&just is also having quality control issues. The Canadian JJ shipment is held afterAZ material found in, it was.mamufactured where they alsondo AZ. Had my AZ vaccine yesterday, side effects were pretty crappy but way less then covid and much shorter. I'm already feeling better I think I'll be 💯 tomorrow. did you actually get covid? Yes, and it was fucking awful, but no hospitalization needed. This week alone in my 100k city we had a 17 year old girl and 45 year old man with no prior heath conditions die. To the Australians complaining about the travel restrictions, we've had various restrictions for more than whole year AND people are still getting super sick. 0 covid I'm sure sucks, but not nearly as bad as the bend the curve or lets the virus run rampant. Also, socialism does not mean authoritarian, that can happen at both ends. There's around 9000 Aus citizens in India where the disease is running rampant trying to get home, that are unable to get home because the govt has made it illegal.So the complaining... is just showing compassion for those stuck in a third world country in the current environment.But the feeling here about the new law is universal and i think it will be amended next week so I won't talk about it further. As for yourself you've had COVID and you've had a pfizer vaccine (or both?) So after both do you still do the masks and the social distancing? At what point can you stop doing that.How much more immune can you get than that really. using masks and distancing after getting the vaccine isn't about your own immunity. Its about preventing that you spread it to others. Just because you have been vaccinated doesn't mean you are now unable to spread it to others.
This. We simply don't know yet, we haven't done human trial challenges yet (afaik).
I also don't see why the zero covid strategy is to blame for people not being allowed to return home to a country that follows that strategy from a country that has done the complete opposite (India completely opened up before their most recent wave) and as a result has too much covid. An alternative would be to let them all in and take a huge gamble on them spreading the disease far and wide (which I'd say would be pretty much a certainty), so that's not an option - less-than-perfect border control is most likely one of the reasons why new variants have been spreading in so many different countries. Another alternative would be to quarantine and then track and trace all of them. But how? Does Australia have the realistic means for that?
I'd argue this much rather makes a case in favor of a zero covid strategy. If India had done it, Australia would likely allow their citizens to return home under quarantine.
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australias intake of travellers from abroad was already limited. this cap changed depending on the severity of situations abroad as well as our own quarantine capabilities.
therefore our quarantine facilities wouldnt be overloaded by allowing travel from india because the country literally doesnt allow more people on planes than the facilities can handle. by continuing to do this you at least allow a small number of residents to return to the country, albeit at a slow pace.
to completely deny access to your own residents is absolutely shameful and moves past simple biosecurity matters. its straight up abandonment of your own countrymen. the only reason this has happened is because the federal and state governments are not only completely incompetent at managing quarantine to begin with, but they want to distance themselves of the responsilibity of having to actually do a good job.
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On May 01 2021 23:07 Uldridge wrote:
Okay, so I'll go on a little rant here because I'm completely fed up with how governments handle the situation.
Perhaps other people can chip in on what they think could be better.
Reports of people dying with no prior health condition always makes my skin crawl. Not having a medical record != ubderlying issues like slight hypertension or some kind of weird physiological manifestation that only surfaces because of this kind of infection. Granted, it's near impossible to check up on this, but this is an issue. We have people catching COVID who have no problems and we have people catching COVID dying. It's the same problem we face when therapeutics are developed. Only broad strokes are possible because niche cases of 1/1000000 where people get an aneurysm from a medicine cost too much money to investigate.
And here we reach a bullshit paradigm: finding out actual physiological mechanisms for why our bodies fail in these situations is mostly a waste of time and money. It's why certain therapies literally cost millions.
And this is, in my opinion, one of the key points of why we're handling this so poorly.
Governments can spend millions on labs trying to figure out the 'exact' pathophysiology of the virus-host interaction. They can also find out how genetics translates to people being more or less at risk: these sets of genes give you a more likely chance of having a worse outcome when contracting COVID.
There are obvious ethical issues here, but we've had lockdowns and curfues that weren't entirely morally and legislatively sound either, so I think a case can be made here.
My second big grievance is that we only retro-actively act on situations. We slowly see numbers go up and then roll out soft/hard measures. If governments had started random population testing (which is literally every statistician's wet dream), you'd have, next to numbers from local outbursts, a nice overview of silent spreaders. You can then map at risk subpopulations and take measures accordingly.
If you couple the course data (statistics at population level) with detailed data (at individual level), I think we'd be able to handle this Sars-cov2 thing way better. We'd be able to provide nuance to a society which desperately needs it, instead of broad stroking it and making these random decisions like opening up contact jobs like hair salons only to almost immediately close them after 2 weeks because things are getting worse again! It makes no sense at all.
How is it that schools only became big spreaders after the UK strain became prevalent in Belgium? Is it because it's the case? Or is it because the original strain spread more silently among teens and it went unnoticed? Random trials would have found out about this! Anonymous genetic/physiological tests could build an actual robust/nuanced model on risk factors instead of the "obsese/hypertension/elderly/frail lung" risk factors we have now.
Bottom line: governments could've done way more to be competent with pro-active moves, developing actual models instead of watching which numbers go up where and acting in a kneejerk fashion, throwing parts of society under the bus that shouldn't.
Contact tracing is a nice system though.
It goes both ways. The astronomic resources thrown at covid-19 are completely irrational if you compare it to any other area of healthcare.
One example: One test which can save lives is to offer colonoscopy to males around 50 to catch early stage cancer, but it is generally considered not worth it. A close friend of mine, father of 3 young boys, recently died of... colon cancer, and it was discovered too late. He is one of the people who were "sacrificed" for that policy.
Then, don't let us go into exercise, smoking, healthy eating etc...
As many deaths Covid causes, most people still die from other causes, but we don't care unless we know them, as we always have.
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On May 02 2021 01:33 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2021 23:07 Uldridge wrote:
Okay, so I'll go on a little rant here because I'm completely fed up with how governments handle the situation.
Perhaps other people can chip in on what they think could be better.
Reports of people dying with no prior health condition always makes my skin crawl. Not having a medical record != ubderlying issues like slight hypertension or some kind of weird physiological manifestation that only surfaces because of this kind of infection. Granted, it's near impossible to check up on this, but this is an issue. We have people catching COVID who have no problems and we have people catching COVID dying. It's the same problem we face when therapeutics are developed. Only broad strokes are possible because niche cases of 1/1000000 where people get an aneurysm from a medicine cost too much money to investigate.
And here we reach a bullshit paradigm: finding out actual physiological mechanisms for why our bodies fail in these situations is mostly a waste of time and money. It's why certain therapies literally cost millions.
And this is, in my opinion, one of the key points of why we're handling this so poorly.
Governments can spend millions on labs trying to figure out the 'exact' pathophysiology of the virus-host interaction. They can also find out how genetics translates to people being more or less at risk: these sets of genes give you a more likely chance of having a worse outcome when contracting COVID.
There are obvious ethical issues here, but we've had lockdowns and curfues that weren't entirely morally and legislatively sound either, so I think a case can be made here.
My second big grievance is that we only retro-actively act on situations. We slowly see numbers go up and then roll out soft/hard measures. If governments had started random population testing (which is literally every statistician's wet dream), you'd have, next to numbers from local outbursts, a nice overview of silent spreaders. You can then map at risk subpopulations and take measures accordingly.
If you couple the course data (statistics at population level) with detailed data (at individual level), I think we'd be able to handle this Sars-cov2 thing way better. We'd be able to provide nuance to a society which desperately needs it, instead of broad stroking it and making these random decisions like opening up contact jobs like hair salons only to almost immediately close them after 2 weeks because things are getting worse again! It makes no sense at all.
How is it that schools only became big spreaders after the UK strain became prevalent in Belgium? Is it because it's the case? Or is it because the original strain spread more silently among teens and it went unnoticed? Random trials would have found out about this! Anonymous genetic/physiological tests could build an actual robust/nuanced model on risk factors instead of the "obsese/hypertension/elderly/frail lung" risk factors we have now.
Bottom line: governments could've done way more to be competent with pro-active moves, developing actual models instead of watching which numbers go up where and acting in a kneejerk fashion, throwing parts of society under the bus that shouldn't.
Contact tracing is a nice system though. It goes both ways. The astronomic resources thrown at covid-19 are completely irrational if you compare it to any other area of healthcare. One example: One test which can save lives is to offer colonoscopy to males around 50 to catch early stage cancer, but it is generally considered not worth it. A close friend of mine, father of 3 young boys, recently died of... colon cancer, and it was discovered too late. He is one of the people who were "sacrificed" for that policy. Then, don't let us go into exercise, smoking, healthy eating etc... As many deaths Covid causes, most people still die from other causes, but we don't care unless we know them, as we always have.
None of those examples are contagious diseases though, and they don't cause hospitals to overflow to the point where people are dying in the streets during surges. You may be right from a coldly rational point of view but emotion from seeing mass graves and medical workers in hasmat suits understandably affects people's response.
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I passed my last pre-vax test of will. A few of my friends who have had their second shot but not 2 weeks ago are getting together for drinks in Portland, sitting outside. I'm still 2 days away from 2 weeks after second dose. It was really tempting. But I didn't avoid all in-person contact for 14 months just to get whiny now.
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