EPTCoronavirus and You - Page 326
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control. It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you. Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly. This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here. Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On January 06 2021 06:54 BlackJack wrote: The other thing that's worth mentioning is do we really need to get to herd immunity? We really need to get to a point where the healthcare systems are not being overrun by COVID, which I think is a much smaller % than the 80-90% that is theorized to provide herd immunity. We definitely should be pursuing herd immunity rather than a long-term "flatten the curve" operation. It would save tens of thousands of lives in the long run. | ||
|
BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On January 06 2021 08:32 LegalLord wrote: We definitely should be pursuing herd immunity rather than a long-term "flatten the curve" operation. It would save tens of thousands of lives in the long run. Yes, that would be optimal | ||
|
RKC
2848 Posts
My Mom doesn't intend to take one, despite my best urgings. She's worried that it's not fully being tried and tested. She's willing to wait out. Her hometown is doing well. She rarely goes out. She takes precautions. She takes more medication. She's in the pink of health. More importantly, she's lived a full life. She's lived long enough to live through worst crises - war, and even past epidemics more deadly to our region before. Who am I to judge her for being silly, stubborn, or even senile? She's lived much longer than me. Sometimes, I feel she knows more about my health than my own self. She's not a doctor. She has no science degree. She's no shaman or witch either. She just has good instincts on what it takes to lead a long healthy and happy life. At first, I was very taken aback about her reluctance on taking the vaccine. And then I realise her peers share the same philosophy. And as an aging town, they're faring much better than we young vibrant know-it-all city folks. Who am I to doubt them? Humanity has survived worst crises than this before. Keep calm and carry on. Live and let live. Life finds a way. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
Uldridge
Belgium5194 Posts
I want the people who need and want the vaccination to be vaccinated before I get it, since I'm so low risk imo. | ||
|
evilfatsh1t
Australia8913 Posts
On January 06 2021 18:13 Uldridge wrote: I'm also waiting vaccination out because I'm very healthy, young and don't necessarily indulge in 'risky' behavior (like meeting with people that often or going to parties). I try to maintain social distancing when commuting to work, even in public open spaces, like train stations etc. I don't visit at risk people period. I want the people who need and want the vaccination to be vaccinated before I get it, since I'm so low risk imo. your decision to refuse a vaccine that has been made available to you is going to make absolutely zero difference to whether someone "in need" gets a shot. your logic is flawed | ||
|
Biff The Understudy
France8148 Posts
There is one thing every skeptic and hesitant person I have met have in common: it's always a "me me me me me" reasoning. You get the thing so that you don't infect someone vulnerable, and that we all get out of this mess. It's not aaaaaall about you, your situation, your opinion and so on. | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On January 06 2021 19:07 Biff The Understudy wrote: The notion that the vaccines hasn't been thoroughly tested is wrong. Don't people know that? They have been extensively tested, if anything on larger scale than normal vaccines. There is one thing every skeptic and hesitant person I have met have in common: it's always a "me me me me me" reasoning. You get the thing so that you don't infect someone vulnerable, and that we all get out of this mess. It's not aaaaaall about you, your situation, your opinion and so on. They have been thoroughly tested, but only for emergency use. The FDA hasn't yet approved any of the vaccines because the final trial phase is still technically ongoing. This might be part of the reason why many people are still skeptical, at least I hope it is. | ||
|
Furikawari
France2522 Posts
Now for the more classical techniques based vaccines I don't know enough. Also, does that mean that I won't take the vaccine? No, I will take it when my turn will come (welle seeing how it goes here - France - I'll probably die of aging waiting...). But the true problem here is that if anything goes wrong in the long term, we'd be in deep trouble with the anti vaxxers for dozens of years. It's more than just the covid that is at stakes here. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland27227 Posts
On January 06 2021 11:33 RKC wrote: Get a grip, people. Not every one hesitant to take the vaccine now is an anti-vaxxer. My Mom doesn't intend to take one, despite my best urgings. She's worried that it's not fully being tried and tested. She's willing to wait out. Her hometown is doing well. She rarely goes out. She takes precautions. She takes more medication. She's in the pink of health. More importantly, she's lived a full life. She's lived long enough to live through worst crises - war, and even past epidemics more deadly to our region before. Who am I to judge her for being silly, stubborn, or even senile? She's lived much longer than me. Sometimes, I feel she knows more about my health than my own self. She's not a doctor. She has no science degree. She's no shaman or witch either. She just has good instincts on what it takes to lead a long healthy and happy life. At first, I was very taken aback about her reluctance on taking the vaccine. And then I realise her peers share the same philosophy. And as an aging town, they're faring much better than we young vibrant know-it-all city folks. Who am I to doubt them? Humanity has survived worst crises than this before. Keep calm and carry on. Live and let live. Life finds a way. I feel you make some decent points here. On the other side of the coin, it’s very, very frustrating for many of us if we’re within sight of the promised land and the very people we’ve been dragging along for months don’t want to take that final step. As an individual position I totally understand and sympathise, as a representative of a wider group who’ve lived their lives and us young folk have had to sacrifice a huge chunk of a year of ours for, it’s a mite frustrating. I mean I don’t know if I’ll take the vaccine if it takes any chasing up or effort on my part, so I can’t criticise too much! Unlike health workers, where people tend to behave around, us retail workers have a public that absolutely disregards good practice, swarms us, mask uptake has been patchy etc. Christmas was absolutely horrendous for us in this regard, and exceptionally aggravating. Whole extended families out for a leisurely shop during a pandemic? For most of me and my colleagues we’ve been operating on a que sera sera basis as per contracting Covid. Plus on a personal note I value mental health above physical health (I was once institutionalised for a year so, understandable I think.) I would absolutely get the vaccine to prevent others from catching it, but I’m somewhat skeptical that my spot in the queue will really help in that regard. By the time I’m up in the queue all the vulnerable groups should be protected. | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On January 06 2021 19:25 Furikawari wrote: I've worked for a startup that did clinical trials. Those vaccine (mRNA ones) have NOT been tested extensively, it's bullshit. Afaik know, no clinical trial for medicine last less than 6 monthes, it's bullshit. We were developing an in vitro diagnostic kit and we were already going for years long trials. Now for the more classical techniques based vaccines I don't know enough. Also, does that mean that I won't take the vaccine? No, I will take it when my turn will come (welle seeing how it goes here - France - I'll probably die of aging waiting...). But the true problem here is that if anything goes wrong in the long term, we'd be in deep trouble with the anti vaxxers for dozens of years. It's more than just the covid that is at stakes here. The fatality rate for healthcare workers is much higher than for the general population (even outside of the high-risk demographic) because their infection rate is much higher. It is estimated that 10% of covid-19 fatalities are made up of doctors and nurses (although currently I can't confirm that exact number). So even though the vaccines aren't yet FDA approved it makes very little rational sense for a healthcare worker to refuse vaccination while continuing to work at the front lines. One of the participants of the phase three trial for AstraZeneca was a 28 y/o doctor who worked in several hospitals. He died from covid-19 complications, not long after he was given a different (non-covid-19) vaccine as part of the trial. It can be assumed that he likely got infected by a covid-19 patient or perhaps by a colleague. There's also the fact that many healthcare workers are overworked right now, with even some leading experts only sleeping 4-6 hours a day. This adds to the likelihood of a more severe course of the disease. Could perhaps be part of the reason why the aforementioned doctor died. Unfortunately I don't know where to find a breakdown of the age of deceased healthcare workers. Here's information on the difference in infection rates among healthcare workers compared to non-healthcare workers. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/11/201116125608.htm | ||
|
BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On January 06 2021 19:48 Magic Powers wrote: The fatality rate for healthcare workers is much higher than for the general population (even outside of the high-risk demographic) because their infection rate is much higher. It is estimated that 10% of covid-19 fatalities are made up of doctors and nurses (although currently I can't confirm that exact number). So even though the vaccines aren't yet FDA approved it makes very little rational sense for a healthcare worker to refuse vaccination while continuing to work at the front lines. One of the participants of the phase three trial for AstraZeneca was a 28 y/o doctor who worked in several hospitals. He died from covid-19 complications, not long after he was given a different (non-covid-19) vaccine as part of the trial. It can be assumed that he likely got infected by a covid-19 patient or perhaps by a colleague. There's also the fact that many healthcare workers are overworked right now, with even some leading experts only sleeping 4-6 hours a day. This adds to the likelihood of a more severe course of the disease. Could perhaps be part of the reason why the aforementioned doctor died. Unfortunately I don't know where to find a breakdown of the age of deceased healthcare workers. Here's information on the difference in infection rates among healthcare workers compared to non-healthcare workers. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/11/201116125608.htm 10% of COVID deaths being healthcare workers seems incredibly overestimated and I'm not surprised you can't confirm this number. The link you provided seems to directly refute it: As of Nov. 15, 2020, according to the CDC, there were more than 216,000 confirmed COVID-19 cases among health care workers in the United States, leading to at least 799 deaths. For reference there are about 20 million healthcare workers in the USA | ||
|
Uldridge
Belgium5194 Posts
On January 06 2021 18:58 evilfatsh1t wrote: your decision to refuse a vaccine that has been made available to you is going to make absolutely zero difference to whether someone "in need" gets a shot. your logic is flawed Ok, let me put it in harsher, more controversial terms: I don't need the vaccine because of my circumstances. I'm currently (because I know it can still turn) in an extremely comfortable and privileged position and I don't feel like I'm doing anything overly irresponsible for my immediate environment as to possibly carry it over to them. Then again, I might be having some high bias since I've never even had the flu and have never been vaccinated for it either. I heavily support vaccination in general by the way. | ||
|
DarkPlasmaBall
United States46235 Posts
| ||
|
BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On January 06 2021 19:25 Furikawari wrote: I've worked for a startup that did clinical trials. Those vaccine (mRNA ones) have NOT been tested extensively, it's bullshit. Afaik know, no clinical trial for medicine last less than 6 monthes, it's bullshit. We were developing an in vitro diagnostic kit and we were already going for years long trials. Now for the more classical techniques based vaccines I don't know enough. Also, does that mean that I won't take the vaccine? No, I will take it when my turn will come (welle seeing how it goes here - France - I'll probably die of aging waiting...). But the true problem here is that if anything goes wrong in the long term, we'd be in deep trouble with the anti vaxxers for dozens of years. It's more than just the covid that is at stakes here. Everything I had read about drug development before this past year was that most drugs fail in clinical trials, take many years to produce, cost billions of dollars, etc. Now we have 3 first-of-its-kind vaccines developed by 3 different companies and all approved in a matter of months. If they didn't cut any corners that is truly remarkable. P.S. I just want to point out that this user also said he would take the COVID vaccine, so his incredulity over the thoroughness of the process has nothing to do with some "anti-vaxxer" conspiracy | ||
|
Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9956 Posts
On January 06 2021 20:13 Uldridge wrote: Ok, let me put it in harsher, more controversial terms: I don't need the vaccine because of my circumstances. I'm currently (because I know it can still turn) in an extremely comfortable and privileged position and I don't feel like I'm doing anything overly irresponsible for my immediate environment as to possibly carry it over to them. Then again, I might be having some high bias since I've never even had the flu and have never been vaccinated for it either. I heavily support vaccination in general by the way. If you're at train stations (presumably to catch a train) I disagree. | ||
|
evilfatsh1t
Australia8913 Posts
On January 06 2021 20:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: If a person's primary reason for not getting vaccinated happens to be that they're under the impression these vaccines haven't been tested properly, then please educate and correct them (nicely)... Don't be silent and complicit. if only it were that easy. for a lot of people its like telling a trump supporter not to support trump. it doesnt help that the pharmaceutical companies have been indemnified for the vaccines in many countries. indemnity is not new but it doesnt exactly breed confidence in the general public On January 06 2021 20:22 BlackJack wrote: Everything I had read about drug development before this past year was that most drugs fail in clinical trials, take many years to produce, cost billions of dollars, etc. Now we have 3 first-of-its-kind vaccines developed by 3 different companies and all approved in a matter of months. If they didn't cut any corners that is truly remarkable. P.S. I just want to point out that this user also said he would take the COVID vaccine, so his incredulity over the thoroughness of the process has nothing to do with some "anti-vaxxer" conspiracy i think this is the biggest issue, and its a point raised by everyone, not just the anti vax community. full approval hasnt been given for any of the vaccines in any country yet so final results are still to be confirmed, but so many people are just hoping that the vaccines will work as intended because theyve passed with flying colours until now. i dont know what the allocation of resources towards covid vaccines were like during development compared to any other vaccine development but the results seem "too good to be true" when you consider the success rate of vaccine development in general | ||
|
warding
Portugal2396 Posts
As far as long-term side effects, what vaccines have caused serious long-term side effects at a significant rate (that would even make us reconsider the above-mentioned cost-benefit analysis)? Haven't all the claims of vaccination causing autism and diabetes been debunked? We now have 20 vaccines in or past phase 3 trials and apparently none of them have experienced significant safety issues and so far all seem to work (with the exception of Sanofi's for 55 year olds?). I'd say it's increasingly looking like we're actually being way too cautiuous about vaccines, not too little. For approved vaccines, the only acceptable logic I think there would be for refusing one is if you know you have been infected in the past, and know from a serological test that you already are immune. Sure, in that case wait 6-12 months before taking the vaccine, your immunity probably is going to hold up. For everyone else, it's not even about being selfish, it's just ignorance. On January 06 2021 20:22 BlackJack wrote: Everything I had read about drug development before this past year was that most drugs fail in clinical trials, take many years to produce, cost billions of dollars, etc. Now we have 3 first-of-its-kind vaccines developed by 3 different companies and all approved in a matter of months. If they didn't cut any corners that is truly remarkable. Or maybe something was truly remarkably wrong about the clinical trial and drug approval process. Or injecting billions on a scientific/technical problem sometimes actually works. It's like when wars cause countries to heavily invest on R&D and all of a sudden the rate of scientific and engineering progress increases at a way faster rate. Nothing like a good incentive. | ||
|
DarkPlasmaBall
United States46235 Posts
On January 06 2021 20:35 evilfatsh1t wrote: if only it were that easy. for a lot of people its like telling a trump supporter not to support trump. it doesnt help that the pharmaceutical companies have been indemnified for the vaccines in many countries. indemnity is not new but it doesnt exactly breed confidence in the general public Totally agree. I just mean that the stakes are too high to not even bother trying to fix the misconception. Once you realize that some/most of them won't change their minds at all, then it's likely time to move on (and avoid them like the plague, irony intended). | ||
| ||
