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Coronavirus and You - Page 19

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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control.

It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you.

Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly.

This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here.

Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better.
don_kyuhote
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
3006 Posts
March 11 2020 05:23 GMT
#361
Looks like more and more US colleges are shutting down and moving to online classes for the rest of the semester. My school, Univ. of Arizona, has not issued such measures yet since Arizona hasn't been hit hard so far, but we will see.

There was supposed to be this outdoor fair called Tucson Festival of Books on campus, and they spent all week last week setting up many big tents in the center of the school, but now it's cancelled and they started taking down the tents. https://tucson.com/news/local/coronavirus-fears-force-cancellation-of-tucson-festival-of-books/article_cad7f800-622f-11ea-85ff-ff32b775c57f.html
Bummer.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27149 Posts
March 11 2020 05:24 GMT
#362
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/bruce-aylward-coronavirus-who-covid-19-1.5492085

This is an interview with a Canadian who led the WHO efforts against Ebola and Zika, as well as the WHO corona mission to China earlier this year.
ModeratorGodfather
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
March 11 2020 06:45 GMT
#363
California (as I gather the rest of the country) has been having trouble testing patients that pass the several step screenings. Also, the screening in hospitals that I have seen mainly focus on people that have recently been in contact with someone from outside the country who appeared sick, or people currently showing symptoms. No in-community transmission screening, and no nonsymptomatic people recently returned from foreign countries. That's just my very small sample size.

The big story around here is the NYT's recent compilation of bureaucratic failures leading to shutdowns in labs currently testing for COVID19. The odd duck in the chain of mishaps is the FDA. The regulations intended to protect patients, prevent scares, and make orderly progress in situations like this, ended up slowing everything down and needlessly burdening researchers. The story is a bit long.
Dr. Helen Y. Chu, an infectious disease expert in Seattle, knew that the United States did not have much time.

In late January, the first confirmed American case of the coronavirus had landed in her area. Critical questions needed answers: Had the man infected anyone else? Was the deadly virus already lurking in other communities and spreading?

As luck would have it, Dr. Chu had a way to monitor the region. For months, as part of a research project into the flu, she and a team of researchers had been collecting nasal swabs from residents experiencing symptoms throughout the Puget Sound region.

To repurpose the tests for monitoring the coronavirus, they would need the support of state and federal officials. But nearly everywhere Dr. Chu turned, officials repeatedly rejected the idea, interviews and emails show, even as weeks crawled by and outbreaks emerged in countries outside of China, where the infection began.

By Feb. 25, Dr. Chu and her colleagues could not bear to wait any longer. They began performing coronavirus tests, without government approval.

What came back confirmed their worst fear. They quickly had a positive test from a local teenager with no recent travel history. The coronavirus had already established itself on American soil without anybody realizing it.

“It must have been here this entire time,” Dr. Chu recalled thinking with dread. “It’s just everywhere already.”

In fact, officials would later discover through testing, the virus had already contributed to the deaths of two people, and it would go on to kill 20 more in the Seattle region over the following days.

Federal and state officials said the flu study could not be repurposed because it did not have explicit permission from research subjects; the labs were also not certified for clinical work. While acknowledging the ethical questions, Dr. Chu and others argued there should be more flexibility in an emergency during which so many lives could be lost. On Monday night, state regulators told them to stop testing altogether.

The failure to tap into the flu study, detailed here for the first time, was just one in a series of missed chances by the federal government to ensure more widespread testing during the early days of the outbreak, when containment would have been easier. Instead, local officials across the country were left to work in the dark as the crisis grew undetected and exponentially.

Even now, after weeks of mounting frustration toward federal agencies over flawed test kits and burdensome rules, states with growing cases such as New York and California are struggling to test widely for the coronavirus. The continued delays have made it impossible for officials to get a true picture of the scale of the growing outbreak, which has now spread to at least 36 states and Washington, D.C.

Dr. Robert R. Redfield, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said in an interview on Friday that acting quickly was critical for combating an outbreak. “Time matters,” he said.

He insisted that despite the rocky start, there was still time to beat back the coronavirus in the United States. “It’s going to take rigorous, aggressive public health — what I like to say, block and tackle, block and tackle, block and tackle, block and tackle,” he said. “That means if you find a new case, you isolate it.”

But the Seattle Flu Study illustrates how existing regulations and red tape — sometimes designed to protect privacy and health — have impeded the rapid rollout of testing nationally, while other countries ramped up much earlier and faster. Faced with a public health emergency on a scale potentially not seen in a century, the United States has not responded nimbly.

The C.D.C.’s own effort to create a system for monitoring the virus around the country, using established government surveillance networks for the flu, has not yet built steam. And as late as last week, after expanding authorizations for commercial and academic institutions to make tests, administration officials provided conflicting accounts of when a significant increase in tests would be available.

In states like Maine, Missouri and Michigan, where there are few or no known infections, state public health officials say they have more than enough tests to meet demand.

But it remains unclear how many Americans have been tested for the coronavirus. The C.D.C. says approximately 8,500 specimens or nose swabs have been taken since the beginning of the outbreak — a figure that is almost certainly larger than the number of people tested since one person can have multiple swabs. By comparison, South Korea, which discovered its first case around the same time as the United States, has reported having the capacity to test roughly 10,000 people a day since late February.

As soon as the genetic sequence of the coronavirus was published in January, the C.D.C.’s first job was to develop a diagnostic test. “That’s our prime mission,” Dr. Redfield said, “to get eyes on this thing.”

The agency also released criteria for deciding which individuals should be tested for the virus — at first only those who had a fever and respiratory issues and had traveled from the outbreak’s origin in Wuhan, China.

The criteria were so strict that the sick man in the Seattle area who had visited Wuhan did not meet it. Still, worried state health officials pushed to get him checked, and the C.D.C. agreed. Local officials sent a sample to Atlanta and the results came back positive.

Officials monitored 70 people who were in contact with the man, including 50 who consented to getting nose swabs, and none tested positive for the coronavirus. But there was still the possibility that someone had been missed, said Dr. Scott Lindquist, the state epidemiologist for communicable diseases.

Around this time, the Washington State Department of Health began discussions with the Seattle Flu Study already going on in the state.

But there was a hitch: The flu project primarily used research laboratories, not clinical ones, and its coronavirus test was not approved by the Food and Drug Administration. And so the group was not certified to provide test results to anyone outside of their own investigators. They began discussions with state, C.D.C. and F.D.A. officials to figure out a solution, according to emails and interviews.

Dr. Scott F. Dowell, a former high-ranking C.D.C. official and a current deputy director at the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, which funds the Seattle Flu Study, asked for help from the leaders of the C.D.C.’s coronavirus response. “Hoping there is a solution,” he wrote on Feb. 10.

Later, Dr. Lindquist, the state epidemiologist in Washington, wrote an email to Dr. Alicia Fry, the chief of the C.D.C.’s epidemiology and prevention branch, requesting the study be used to test for the coronavirus.

C.D.C. officials repeatedly said it would not be possible. “If you want to use your test as a screening tool, you would have to check with F.D.A.,” Gayle Langley, an officer at the C.D.C.’s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Disease, wrote back in an email on Feb. 16. But the F.D.A. could not offer the approval because the lab was not certified as a clinical laboratory under regulations established by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, a process that could take months.

Dr. Chu and Dr. Lindquist tried repeatedly to wrangle approval to use the Seattle Flu Study. The answers were always no.

“We felt like we were sitting, waiting for the pandemic to emerge,” Dr. Chu said. “We could help. We couldn’t do anything.”


As Washington State debated with the federal officials over what to do, the C.D.C. confronted the daunting task of testing more widely for the coronavirus.

The C.D.C. had designed its own test as it typically does during an outbreak. Several other countries also developed their own tests.

But when the C.D.C. shipped test kits to public labs across the country, some local health officials began reporting that the test was producing invalid results.

The C.D.C. promised that replacement kits would be distributed within days, but the problem stretched on for over two weeks. Only five state laboratories were able to test in that period. Washington and New York were not among them.

By Feb. 24, as new cases of the virus began popping up in the United States, the state labs were growing frantic.

The Association of Public Health Laboratories made what it called an “extraordinary and rare request” of Dr. Stephen Hahn, the commissioner of the F.D.A., asking him to use his discretion to allow state and local public health laboratories to create their own tests for the virus.

“We are now many weeks into the response with still no diagnostic or surveillance test available outside of C.D.C. for the vast majority of our member laboratories,” Scott Becker, the chief executive of the association, wrote in a letter to Dr. Hahn.

Dr. Hahn responded two days later, saying in a letter that “false diagnostic test results can lead to significant adverse public health consequences” and that the laboratories were welcome to submit their own tests for emergency authorization.

But the approval process for laboratory-developed tests was proving onerous. Private and university clinical laboratories, which typically have the latitude to develop their own tests, were frustrated about the speed of the F.D.A. as they prepared applications for emergency approvals from the agency for their coronavirus tests.

Dr. Alex Greninger, an assistant professor at the University of Washington Medical Center in Seattle, said he became exasperated in mid-February as he communicated with the F.D.A. over getting his application ready to begin testing. “This virus is faster than the F.D.A.,” he said, adding that at one point the agency required him to submit materials through the mail in addition to over email.

New tests typically require validation — running the test on known positive samples from a patient or a copy of the virus genome. The F.D.A.’s process called for five. Obtaining such samples has been hard because most hospital labs have not seen coronavirus cases yet, said Dr. Karen Kaul, chair of the department of pathology and laboratory medicine at NorthShore University HealthSystem in Illinois.

She said she had to scramble to obtain virus RNA from a laboratory in Europe. “Everyone is trying to figure out what we can get to help us gather the data that we need,” she said.

The F.D.A. has disputed that it moved too slowly, saying that it provided emergency authorization for two laboratory-developed tests within 24 hours of a completed submission — one was the C.D.C.’s test and the other a test developed by New York’s Wadsworth laboratory after it had trouble verifying the C.D.C.’s test.

On the other side of the country in Seattle, Dr. Chu and her flu study colleagues, unwilling to wait any longer, decided to begin running samples.

A technician in the laboratory of Dr. Lea Starita who was testing samples soon got a hit.

“I’m like, ‘Oh my God,’” Dr. Starita said. “I just took off running” to the office of the study’s program managers. “We got one,” she told them. “What do we do?”

Members of the research group discussed the ethics of what to do next.

“What we were allowed to do was to keep it to ourselves,” Dr. Chu said. “But what we felt like we needed to do was to tell public health.”

They decided the right thing to do was to inform local health officials.

The case was a teenager, in the same county where the first coronavirus case had surfaced, who had a flu swab just a few days before but had no travel history and no link to any known case.

The state laboratory, finally able to begin testing, confirmed the result the next morning. The teenager, who had recovered from his illness, was located and informed just after he entered his school building. He was sent home and the school was later closed as a precaution.

Later that day, the investigators and Seattle health officials gathered with representatives of the C.D.C. and the F.D.A. to discuss what happened. The message from the federal government was blunt. “What they said on that phone call very clearly was cease and desist to Helen Chu,” Dr. Lindquist remembered. “Stop testing.”

Still, the troubling finding reshaped how officials understood the outbreak. Seattle Flu Study scientists quickly sequenced the genome of the virus, finding a genetic variation also present in the country’s first coronavirus case.

The implications were unnerving. There was a good chance that the virus had been circulating silently in the community for around six weeks, infecting potentially hundreds of people.

On a phone call the day after the C.D.C. and F.D.A. had told Dr. Chu to stop, officials relented, but only partially, the researchers recalled. They would allow the study’s laboratories to test cases and report the results only in future samples. They would need to use a new consent form that explicitly mentioned that results of the coronavirus tests might be shared with the local health department.

They were not to test the thousands of samples that had already been collected.

The same day, the F.D.A. said it would relax its rules and allow clinical labs to begin using their own coronavirus tests as long as they submitted evidence that they worked to the agency. Under that new policy, according to an agency representative on Tuesday, it had heard from 14 labs, with 10 already beginning patient testing.

On March 2, the Seattle Flu Study’s institutional review board at the University of Washington determined that it would be unethical for the researchers not to test and report the results in a public health emergency, Dr. Starita said. Since then, her laboratory has found and reported numerous additional cases, all of which have been confirmed.

As new samples came in, Dr. Starita’s laboratory also worked their way backward through some older samples that had been sitting in the freezers for weeks, finding cases that date back to at least Feb. 20 — seven days before public health officials had any idea the virus was in the community.

The scientists said they believe that they will find evidence that the virus was infecting people even earlier, and that they could have alerted authorities sooner if they had been allowed to test.

But on Monday night, state regulators, enforcing Medicare rules, stepped in and again told them to stop until they could finish getting certified as a clinical laboratory, a process that could take many weeks.


+ Show Spoiler [rest of story] +
In the days since the teenager’s test, the Seattle region has spun into crisis, with dozens of people testing positive and at least 22 dying — many of them infected in a nursing home that had unknowingly been suffering casualties since Feb. 19.

The availability of testing for coronavirus remains uneven, with some people able to easily obtain tests in certain parts of the country while others have been turned away. Some state officials fear that the virus is spreading far faster than the capacity for testing is increasing.

Looking back, Dr. Chu said she understood why the regulations that stymied the flu study’s efforts for weeks existed. “Those protections are in place for a reason,” she said. “You want to protect human subjects. You want to do things in an ethical way.”

The frustration, she said, was how long it took to cut through red tape to try to save lives in an outbreak that had the potential to explode in Washington State and spread in many other regions. “I don’t think people knew that back then,” she said. “We know it now.”

NYT
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4730 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-03-11 07:43:55
March 11 2020 07:42 GMT
#364
There has not been a single case reported yet in my city but as preventive measures local government has ordered all theaters, operas, cinemas, fairs and philharmonic to shut down. At the same time Church is increasing number of services....it is retarded.....
It is hard for me as i go to philharmonic every week, i think i will miss at least two concerts. I know it isnt much really but this is something really important for me. Anyway it feels like creeping *something*. Since it was observed in Italy every day it is getting closer and is affecting me in stronger way. I am worried about my mother who is already in retirment age but is still working and on top of that in public administration so has conatct with plenty of people every day.
Pathetic Greta hater.
Harris1st
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany6931 Posts
March 11 2020 07:43 GMT
#365
Germany is building Drive-In centers for testing.

You drive there and stay in your car the whole time while someone comes and does the test. Then you drive home and wait there for the results which should be available in the next 7 seven days or something.
Go Serral! GG EZ for Ence. Flashbang dance FTW
Uldridge
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium4787 Posts
March 11 2020 09:54 GMT
#366
On March 11 2020 15:45 Danglars wrote:
California (as I gather the rest of the country) has been having trouble testing patients that pass the several step screenings. Also, the screening in hospitals that I have seen mainly focus on people that have recently been in contact with someone from outside the country who appeared sick, or people currently showing symptoms. No in-community transmission screening, and no nonsymptomatic people recently returned from foreign countries. That's just my very small sample size.

The big story around here is the NYT's recent compilation of bureaucratic failures leading to shutdowns in labs currently testing for COVID19. The odd duck in the chain of mishaps is the FDA. The regulations intended to protect patients, prevent scares, and make orderly progress in situations like this, ended up slowing everything down and needlessly burdening researchers. The story is a bit long.
+ Show Spoiler +
Dr. Helen Y. Chu, an infectious disease expert in Seattle, knew that the United States did not have much time.

In late January, the first confirmed American case of the coronavirus had landed in her area. Critical questions needed answers: Had the man infected anyone else? Was the deadly virus already lurking in other communities and spreading?

As luck would have it, Dr. Chu had a way to monitor the region. For months, as part of a research project into the flu, she and a team of researchers had been collecting nasal swabs from residents experiencing symptoms throughout the Puget Sound region.

To repurpose the tests for monitoring the coronavirus, they would need the support of state and federal officials. But nearly everywhere Dr. Chu turned, officials repeatedly rejected the idea, interviews and emails show, even as weeks crawled by and outbreaks emerged in countries outside of China, where the infection began.

By Feb. 25, Dr. Chu and her colleagues could not bear to wait any longer. They began performing coronavirus tests, without government approval.

What came back confirmed their worst fear. They quickly had a positive test from a local teenager with no recent travel history. The coronavirus had already established itself on American soil without anybody realizing it.

“It must have been here this entire time,” Dr. Chu recalled thinking with dread. “It’s just everywhere already.”

In fact, officials would later discover through testing, the virus had already contributed to the deaths of two people, and it would go on to kill 20 more in the Seattle region over the following days.

Federal and state officials said the flu study could not be repurposed because it did not have explicit permission from research subjects; the labs were also not certified for clinical work. While acknowledging the ethical questions, Dr. Chu and others argued there should be more flexibility in an emergency during which so many lives could be lost. On Monday night, state regulators told them to stop testing altogether.

The failure to tap into the flu study, detailed here for the first time, was just one in a series of missed chances by the federal government to ensure more widespread testing during the early days of the outbreak, when containment would have been easier. Instead, local officials across the country were left to work in the dark as the crisis grew undetected and exponentially.

Even now, after weeks of mounting frustration toward federal agencies over flawed test kits and burdensome rules, states with growing cases such as New York and California are struggling to test widely for the coronavirus. The continued delays have made it impossible for officials to get a true picture of the scale of the growing outbreak, which has now spread to at least 36 states and Washington, D.C.

Dr. Robert R. Redfield, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said in an interview on Friday that acting quickly was critical for combating an outbreak. “Time matters,” he said.

He insisted that despite the rocky start, there was still time to beat back the coronavirus in the United States. “It’s going to take rigorous, aggressive public health — what I like to say, block and tackle, block and tackle, block and tackle, block and tackle,” he said. “That means if you find a new case, you isolate it.”

But the Seattle Flu Study illustrates how existing regulations and red tape — sometimes designed to protect privacy and health — have impeded the rapid rollout of testing nationally, while other countries ramped up much earlier and faster. Faced with a public health emergency on a scale potentially not seen in a century, the United States has not responded nimbly.

The C.D.C.’s own effort to create a system for monitoring the virus around the country, using established government surveillance networks for the flu, has not yet built steam. And as late as last week, after expanding authorizations for commercial and academic institutions to make tests, administration officials provided conflicting accounts of when a significant increase in tests would be available.

In states like Maine, Missouri and Michigan, where there are few or no known infections, state public health officials say they have more than enough tests to meet demand.

But it remains unclear how many Americans have been tested for the coronavirus. The C.D.C. says approximately 8,500 specimens or nose swabs have been taken since the beginning of the outbreak — a figure that is almost certainly larger than the number of people tested since one person can have multiple swabs. By comparison, South Korea, which discovered its first case around the same time as the United States, has reported having the capacity to test roughly 10,000 people a day since late February.

As soon as the genetic sequence of the coronavirus was published in January, the C.D.C.’s first job was to develop a diagnostic test. “That’s our prime mission,” Dr. Redfield said, “to get eyes on this thing.”

The agency also released criteria for deciding which individuals should be tested for the virus — at first only those who had a fever and respiratory issues and had traveled from the outbreak’s origin in Wuhan, China.

The criteria were so strict that the sick man in the Seattle area who had visited Wuhan did not meet it. Still, worried state health officials pushed to get him checked, and the C.D.C. agreed. Local officials sent a sample to Atlanta and the results came back positive.

Officials monitored 70 people who were in contact with the man, including 50 who consented to getting nose swabs, and none tested positive for the coronavirus. But there was still the possibility that someone had been missed, said Dr. Scott Lindquist, the state epidemiologist for communicable diseases.

Around this time, the Washington State Department of Health began discussions with the Seattle Flu Study already going on in the state.

But there was a hitch: The flu project primarily used research laboratories, not clinical ones, and its coronavirus test was not approved by the Food and Drug Administration. And so the group was not certified to provide test results to anyone outside of their own investigators. They began discussions with state, C.D.C. and F.D.A. officials to figure out a solution, according to emails and interviews.

Dr. Scott F. Dowell, a former high-ranking C.D.C. official and a current deputy director at the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, which funds the Seattle Flu Study, asked for help from the leaders of the C.D.C.’s coronavirus response. “Hoping there is a solution,” he wrote on Feb. 10.

Later, Dr. Lindquist, the state epidemiologist in Washington, wrote an email to Dr. Alicia Fry, the chief of the C.D.C.’s epidemiology and prevention branch, requesting the study be used to test for the coronavirus.

C.D.C. officials repeatedly said it would not be possible. “If you want to use your test as a screening tool, you would have to check with F.D.A.,” Gayle Langley, an officer at the C.D.C.’s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Disease, wrote back in an email on Feb. 16. But the F.D.A. could not offer the approval because the lab was not certified as a clinical laboratory under regulations established by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, a process that could take months.

Dr. Chu and Dr. Lindquist tried repeatedly to wrangle approval to use the Seattle Flu Study. The answers were always no.

“We felt like we were sitting, waiting for the pandemic to emerge,” Dr. Chu said. “We could help. We couldn’t do anything.”


As Washington State debated with the federal officials over what to do, the C.D.C. confronted the daunting task of testing more widely for the coronavirus.

The C.D.C. had designed its own test as it typically does during an outbreak. Several other countries also developed their own tests.

But when the C.D.C. shipped test kits to public labs across the country, some local health officials began reporting that the test was producing invalid results.

The C.D.C. promised that replacement kits would be distributed within days, but the problem stretched on for over two weeks. Only five state laboratories were able to test in that period. Washington and New York were not among them.

By Feb. 24, as new cases of the virus began popping up in the United States, the state labs were growing frantic.

The Association of Public Health Laboratories made what it called an “extraordinary and rare request” of Dr. Stephen Hahn, the commissioner of the F.D.A., asking him to use his discretion to allow state and local public health laboratories to create their own tests for the virus.

“We are now many weeks into the response with still no diagnostic or surveillance test available outside of C.D.C. for the vast majority of our member laboratories,” Scott Becker, the chief executive of the association, wrote in a letter to Dr. Hahn.

Dr. Hahn responded two days later, saying in a letter that “false diagnostic test results can lead to significant adverse public health consequences” and that the laboratories were welcome to submit their own tests for emergency authorization.

But the approval process for laboratory-developed tests was proving onerous. Private and university clinical laboratories, which typically have the latitude to develop their own tests, were frustrated about the speed of the F.D.A. as they prepared applications for emergency approvals from the agency for their coronavirus tests.

Dr. Alex Greninger, an assistant professor at the University of Washington Medical Center in Seattle, said he became exasperated in mid-February as he communicated with the F.D.A. over getting his application ready to begin testing. “This virus is faster than the F.D.A.,” he said, adding that at one point the agency required him to submit materials through the mail in addition to over email.

New tests typically require validation — running the test on known positive samples from a patient or a copy of the virus genome. The F.D.A.’s process called for five. Obtaining such samples has been hard because most hospital labs have not seen coronavirus cases yet, said Dr. Karen Kaul, chair of the department of pathology and laboratory medicine at NorthShore University HealthSystem in Illinois.

She said she had to scramble to obtain virus RNA from a laboratory in Europe. “Everyone is trying to figure out what we can get to help us gather the data that we need,” she said.

The F.D.A. has disputed that it moved too slowly, saying that it provided emergency authorization for two laboratory-developed tests within 24 hours of a completed submission — one was the C.D.C.’s test and the other a test developed by New York’s Wadsworth laboratory after it had trouble verifying the C.D.C.’s test.

On the other side of the country in Seattle, Dr. Chu and her flu study colleagues, unwilling to wait any longer, decided to begin running samples.

A technician in the laboratory of Dr. Lea Starita who was testing samples soon got a hit.

“I’m like, ‘Oh my God,’” Dr. Starita said. “I just took off running” to the office of the study’s program managers. “We got one,” she told them. “What do we do?”

Members of the research group discussed the ethics of what to do next.

“What we were allowed to do was to keep it to ourselves,” Dr. Chu said. “But what we felt like we needed to do was to tell public health.”

They decided the right thing to do was to inform local health officials.

The case was a teenager, in the same county where the first coronavirus case had surfaced, who had a flu swab just a few days before but had no travel history and no link to any known case.

The state laboratory, finally able to begin testing, confirmed the result the next morning. The teenager, who had recovered from his illness, was located and informed just after he entered his school building. He was sent home and the school was later closed as a precaution.

Later that day, the investigators and Seattle health officials gathered with representatives of the C.D.C. and the F.D.A. to discuss what happened. The message from the federal government was blunt. “What they said on that phone call very clearly was cease and desist to Helen Chu,” Dr. Lindquist remembered. “Stop testing.”

Still, the troubling finding reshaped how officials understood the outbreak. Seattle Flu Study scientists quickly sequenced the genome of the virus, finding a genetic variation also present in the country’s first coronavirus case.

The implications were unnerving. There was a good chance that the virus had been circulating silently in the community for around six weeks, infecting potentially hundreds of people.

On a phone call the day after the C.D.C. and F.D.A. had told Dr. Chu to stop, officials relented, but only partially, the researchers recalled. They would allow the study’s laboratories to test cases and report the results only in future samples. They would need to use a new consent form that explicitly mentioned that results of the coronavirus tests might be shared with the local health department.

They were not to test the thousands of samples that had already been collected.

The same day, the F.D.A. said it would relax its rules and allow clinical labs to begin using their own coronavirus tests as long as they submitted evidence that they worked to the agency. Under that new policy, according to an agency representative on Tuesday, it had heard from 14 labs, with 10 already beginning patient testing.

On March 2, the Seattle Flu Study’s institutional review board at the University of Washington determined that it would be unethical for the researchers not to test and report the results in a public health emergency, Dr. Starita said. Since then, her laboratory has found and reported numerous additional cases, all of which have been confirmed.

As new samples came in, Dr. Starita’s laboratory also worked their way backward through some older samples that had been sitting in the freezers for weeks, finding cases that date back to at least Feb. 20 — seven days before public health officials had any idea the virus was in the community.

The scientists said they believe that they will find evidence that the virus was infecting people even earlier, and that they could have alerted authorities sooner if they had been allowed to test.

But on Monday night, state regulators, enforcing Medicare rules, stepped in and again told them to stop until they could finish getting certified as a clinical laboratory, a process that could take many weeks.


+ Show Spoiler [rest of story] +
In the days since the teenager’s test, the Seattle region has spun into crisis, with dozens of people testing positive and at least 22 dying — many of them infected in a nursing home that had unknowingly been suffering casualties since Feb. 19.

The availability of testing for coronavirus remains uneven, with some people able to easily obtain tests in certain parts of the country while others have been turned away. Some state officials fear that the virus is spreading far faster than the capacity for testing is increasing.

Looking back, Dr. Chu said she understood why the regulations that stymied the flu study’s efforts for weeks existed. “Those protections are in place for a reason,” she said. “You want to protect human subjects. You want to do things in an ethical way.”

The frustration, she said, was how long it took to cut through red tape to try to save lives in an outbreak that had the potential to explode in Washington State and spread in many other regions. “I don’t think people knew that back then,” she said. “We know it now.”

NYT


Aaaaaaah. How bureaucracy fucks up progress and initiative. I feel like these labs, if they KNOW 100% what they're doing, should've just said fuck your rules I'm helping my country and the world.
Taxes are for Terrans
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18828 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-03-11 11:36:55
March 11 2020 11:36 GMT
#367
On March 11 2020 18:54 Uldridge wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 11 2020 15:45 Danglars wrote:
California (as I gather the rest of the country) has been having trouble testing patients that pass the several step screenings. Also, the screening in hospitals that I have seen mainly focus on people that have recently been in contact with someone from outside the country who appeared sick, or people currently showing symptoms. No in-community transmission screening, and no nonsymptomatic people recently returned from foreign countries. That's just my very small sample size.

The big story around here is the NYT's recent compilation of bureaucratic failures leading to shutdowns in labs currently testing for COVID19. The odd duck in the chain of mishaps is the FDA. The regulations intended to protect patients, prevent scares, and make orderly progress in situations like this, ended up slowing everything down and needlessly burdening researchers. The story is a bit long.
+ Show Spoiler +
Dr. Helen Y. Chu, an infectious disease expert in Seattle, knew that the United States did not have much time.

In late January, the first confirmed American case of the coronavirus had landed in her area. Critical questions needed answers: Had the man infected anyone else? Was the deadly virus already lurking in other communities and spreading?

As luck would have it, Dr. Chu had a way to monitor the region. For months, as part of a research project into the flu, she and a team of researchers had been collecting nasal swabs from residents experiencing symptoms throughout the Puget Sound region.

To repurpose the tests for monitoring the coronavirus, they would need the support of state and federal officials. But nearly everywhere Dr. Chu turned, officials repeatedly rejected the idea, interviews and emails show, even as weeks crawled by and outbreaks emerged in countries outside of China, where the infection began.

By Feb. 25, Dr. Chu and her colleagues could not bear to wait any longer. They began performing coronavirus tests, without government approval.

What came back confirmed their worst fear. They quickly had a positive test from a local teenager with no recent travel history. The coronavirus had already established itself on American soil without anybody realizing it.

“It must have been here this entire time,” Dr. Chu recalled thinking with dread. “It’s just everywhere already.”

In fact, officials would later discover through testing, the virus had already contributed to the deaths of two people, and it would go on to kill 20 more in the Seattle region over the following days.

Federal and state officials said the flu study could not be repurposed because it did not have explicit permission from research subjects; the labs were also not certified for clinical work. While acknowledging the ethical questions, Dr. Chu and others argued there should be more flexibility in an emergency during which so many lives could be lost. On Monday night, state regulators told them to stop testing altogether.

The failure to tap into the flu study, detailed here for the first time, was just one in a series of missed chances by the federal government to ensure more widespread testing during the early days of the outbreak, when containment would have been easier. Instead, local officials across the country were left to work in the dark as the crisis grew undetected and exponentially.

Even now, after weeks of mounting frustration toward federal agencies over flawed test kits and burdensome rules, states with growing cases such as New York and California are struggling to test widely for the coronavirus. The continued delays have made it impossible for officials to get a true picture of the scale of the growing outbreak, which has now spread to at least 36 states and Washington, D.C.

Dr. Robert R. Redfield, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said in an interview on Friday that acting quickly was critical for combating an outbreak. “Time matters,” he said.

He insisted that despite the rocky start, there was still time to beat back the coronavirus in the United States. “It’s going to take rigorous, aggressive public health — what I like to say, block and tackle, block and tackle, block and tackle, block and tackle,” he said. “That means if you find a new case, you isolate it.”

But the Seattle Flu Study illustrates how existing regulations and red tape — sometimes designed to protect privacy and health — have impeded the rapid rollout of testing nationally, while other countries ramped up much earlier and faster. Faced with a public health emergency on a scale potentially not seen in a century, the United States has not responded nimbly.

The C.D.C.’s own effort to create a system for monitoring the virus around the country, using established government surveillance networks for the flu, has not yet built steam. And as late as last week, after expanding authorizations for commercial and academic institutions to make tests, administration officials provided conflicting accounts of when a significant increase in tests would be available.

In states like Maine, Missouri and Michigan, where there are few or no known infections, state public health officials say they have more than enough tests to meet demand.

But it remains unclear how many Americans have been tested for the coronavirus. The C.D.C. says approximately 8,500 specimens or nose swabs have been taken since the beginning of the outbreak — a figure that is almost certainly larger than the number of people tested since one person can have multiple swabs. By comparison, South Korea, which discovered its first case around the same time as the United States, has reported having the capacity to test roughly 10,000 people a day since late February.

As soon as the genetic sequence of the coronavirus was published in January, the C.D.C.’s first job was to develop a diagnostic test. “That’s our prime mission,” Dr. Redfield said, “to get eyes on this thing.”

The agency also released criteria for deciding which individuals should be tested for the virus — at first only those who had a fever and respiratory issues and had traveled from the outbreak’s origin in Wuhan, China.

The criteria were so strict that the sick man in the Seattle area who had visited Wuhan did not meet it. Still, worried state health officials pushed to get him checked, and the C.D.C. agreed. Local officials sent a sample to Atlanta and the results came back positive.

Officials monitored 70 people who were in contact with the man, including 50 who consented to getting nose swabs, and none tested positive for the coronavirus. But there was still the possibility that someone had been missed, said Dr. Scott Lindquist, the state epidemiologist for communicable diseases.

Around this time, the Washington State Department of Health began discussions with the Seattle Flu Study already going on in the state.

But there was a hitch: The flu project primarily used research laboratories, not clinical ones, and its coronavirus test was not approved by the Food and Drug Administration. And so the group was not certified to provide test results to anyone outside of their own investigators. They began discussions with state, C.D.C. and F.D.A. officials to figure out a solution, according to emails and interviews.

Dr. Scott F. Dowell, a former high-ranking C.D.C. official and a current deputy director at the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, which funds the Seattle Flu Study, asked for help from the leaders of the C.D.C.’s coronavirus response. “Hoping there is a solution,” he wrote on Feb. 10.

Later, Dr. Lindquist, the state epidemiologist in Washington, wrote an email to Dr. Alicia Fry, the chief of the C.D.C.’s epidemiology and prevention branch, requesting the study be used to test for the coronavirus.

C.D.C. officials repeatedly said it would not be possible. “If you want to use your test as a screening tool, you would have to check with F.D.A.,” Gayle Langley, an officer at the C.D.C.’s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Disease, wrote back in an email on Feb. 16. But the F.D.A. could not offer the approval because the lab was not certified as a clinical laboratory under regulations established by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, a process that could take months.

Dr. Chu and Dr. Lindquist tried repeatedly to wrangle approval to use the Seattle Flu Study. The answers were always no.

“We felt like we were sitting, waiting for the pandemic to emerge,” Dr. Chu said. “We could help. We couldn’t do anything.”


As Washington State debated with the federal officials over what to do, the C.D.C. confronted the daunting task of testing more widely for the coronavirus.

The C.D.C. had designed its own test as it typically does during an outbreak. Several other countries also developed their own tests.

But when the C.D.C. shipped test kits to public labs across the country, some local health officials began reporting that the test was producing invalid results.

The C.D.C. promised that replacement kits would be distributed within days, but the problem stretched on for over two weeks. Only five state laboratories were able to test in that period. Washington and New York were not among them.

By Feb. 24, as new cases of the virus began popping up in the United States, the state labs were growing frantic.

The Association of Public Health Laboratories made what it called an “extraordinary and rare request” of Dr. Stephen Hahn, the commissioner of the F.D.A., asking him to use his discretion to allow state and local public health laboratories to create their own tests for the virus.

“We are now many weeks into the response with still no diagnostic or surveillance test available outside of C.D.C. for the vast majority of our member laboratories,” Scott Becker, the chief executive of the association, wrote in a letter to Dr. Hahn.

Dr. Hahn responded two days later, saying in a letter that “false diagnostic test results can lead to significant adverse public health consequences” and that the laboratories were welcome to submit their own tests for emergency authorization.

But the approval process for laboratory-developed tests was proving onerous. Private and university clinical laboratories, which typically have the latitude to develop their own tests, were frustrated about the speed of the F.D.A. as they prepared applications for emergency approvals from the agency for their coronavirus tests.

Dr. Alex Greninger, an assistant professor at the University of Washington Medical Center in Seattle, said he became exasperated in mid-February as he communicated with the F.D.A. over getting his application ready to begin testing. “This virus is faster than the F.D.A.,” he said, adding that at one point the agency required him to submit materials through the mail in addition to over email.

New tests typically require validation — running the test on known positive samples from a patient or a copy of the virus genome. The F.D.A.’s process called for five. Obtaining such samples has been hard because most hospital labs have not seen coronavirus cases yet, said Dr. Karen Kaul, chair of the department of pathology and laboratory medicine at NorthShore University HealthSystem in Illinois.

She said she had to scramble to obtain virus RNA from a laboratory in Europe. “Everyone is trying to figure out what we can get to help us gather the data that we need,” she said.

The F.D.A. has disputed that it moved too slowly, saying that it provided emergency authorization for two laboratory-developed tests within 24 hours of a completed submission — one was the C.D.C.’s test and the other a test developed by New York’s Wadsworth laboratory after it had trouble verifying the C.D.C.’s test.

On the other side of the country in Seattle, Dr. Chu and her flu study colleagues, unwilling to wait any longer, decided to begin running samples.

A technician in the laboratory of Dr. Lea Starita who was testing samples soon got a hit.

“I’m like, ‘Oh my God,’” Dr. Starita said. “I just took off running” to the office of the study’s program managers. “We got one,” she told them. “What do we do?”

Members of the research group discussed the ethics of what to do next.

“What we were allowed to do was to keep it to ourselves,” Dr. Chu said. “But what we felt like we needed to do was to tell public health.”

They decided the right thing to do was to inform local health officials.

The case was a teenager, in the same county where the first coronavirus case had surfaced, who had a flu swab just a few days before but had no travel history and no link to any known case.

The state laboratory, finally able to begin testing, confirmed the result the next morning. The teenager, who had recovered from his illness, was located and informed just after he entered his school building. He was sent home and the school was later closed as a precaution.

Later that day, the investigators and Seattle health officials gathered with representatives of the C.D.C. and the F.D.A. to discuss what happened. The message from the federal government was blunt. “What they said on that phone call very clearly was cease and desist to Helen Chu,” Dr. Lindquist remembered. “Stop testing.”

Still, the troubling finding reshaped how officials understood the outbreak. Seattle Flu Study scientists quickly sequenced the genome of the virus, finding a genetic variation also present in the country’s first coronavirus case.

The implications were unnerving. There was a good chance that the virus had been circulating silently in the community for around six weeks, infecting potentially hundreds of people.

On a phone call the day after the C.D.C. and F.D.A. had told Dr. Chu to stop, officials relented, but only partially, the researchers recalled. They would allow the study’s laboratories to test cases and report the results only in future samples. They would need to use a new consent form that explicitly mentioned that results of the coronavirus tests might be shared with the local health department.

They were not to test the thousands of samples that had already been collected.

The same day, the F.D.A. said it would relax its rules and allow clinical labs to begin using their own coronavirus tests as long as they submitted evidence that they worked to the agency. Under that new policy, according to an agency representative on Tuesday, it had heard from 14 labs, with 10 already beginning patient testing.

On March 2, the Seattle Flu Study’s institutional review board at the University of Washington determined that it would be unethical for the researchers not to test and report the results in a public health emergency, Dr. Starita said. Since then, her laboratory has found and reported numerous additional cases, all of which have been confirmed.

As new samples came in, Dr. Starita’s laboratory also worked their way backward through some older samples that had been sitting in the freezers for weeks, finding cases that date back to at least Feb. 20 — seven days before public health officials had any idea the virus was in the community.

The scientists said they believe that they will find evidence that the virus was infecting people even earlier, and that they could have alerted authorities sooner if they had been allowed to test.

But on Monday night, state regulators, enforcing Medicare rules, stepped in and again told them to stop until they could finish getting certified as a clinical laboratory, a process that could take many weeks.


+ Show Spoiler [rest of story] +
In the days since the teenager’s test, the Seattle region has spun into crisis, with dozens of people testing positive and at least 22 dying — many of them infected in a nursing home that had unknowingly been suffering casualties since Feb. 19.

The availability of testing for coronavirus remains uneven, with some people able to easily obtain tests in certain parts of the country while others have been turned away. Some state officials fear that the virus is spreading far faster than the capacity for testing is increasing.

Looking back, Dr. Chu said she understood why the regulations that stymied the flu study’s efforts for weeks existed. “Those protections are in place for a reason,” she said. “You want to protect human subjects. You want to do things in an ethical way.”

The frustration, she said, was how long it took to cut through red tape to try to save lives in an outbreak that had the potential to explode in Washington State and spread in many other regions. “I don’t think people knew that back then,” she said. “We know it now.”

NYT


Aaaaaaah. How bureaucracy fucks up progress and initiative. I feel like these labs, if they KNOW 100% what they're doing, should've just said fuck your rules I'm helping my country and the world.

Bureaucracy is indeed troubling when the people in charge are unwilling or don't know how to exercise the discretion they're given to respond to emergencies. Which of course begs a series of questions separate from those of bureaucracy.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-03-11 12:01:48
March 11 2020 11:59 GMT
#368
Well, things went from 0 to 100 real quickly here (Romania).
There arent any deaths, there are about 25 cases (0 in my county), the following precautions were made:
1. Events with 1000+ people banned.
2. Schools, pre-schools and some universities closed.
3. Some public places like markets, arenas, swimming pools etc closed.
4. There's a red list for places (including the whole of Italy, parts of China, South Korea, Spain, Germany etc), if u come from there 14 days special quarantine, if u come from yellow zones, then 14 day self quarantine.
5. There are police cars now at the border that follow people till they get home (no idea how many of them, no way they have enough people to do it for everyone)
6. Some businesses are sending their workers home if they can do home-office. My employer offered it as an option.

All this was instituted in the past 24-48 hours, when the government found out that tens of thousands people are returning (have returned) from Italy, most of them went unchecked (lied about their stay, avoided checkpoints etc).

I dont think it's an overreaction, since the health infrastructure is quite underdeveloped, so the best (or only if i want to be honest) strategy is to try and contain/minimize the spread. Cuz if there's gonna be suddenly thousands of cases, there s absolutely 0 chance that the current capacity of the hospitals could hold up.

Needless to say, my Barcelona trip is a goner, I got a full refund from the airbnb, cant really get a refund for the airplane and train tickets. Maybe if there's a forced cancellation, then i might get the price of the plane-tickets back.
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
March 11 2020 12:12 GMT
#369
On March 11 2020 16:43 Harris1st wrote:
Germany is building Drive-In centers for testing.

You drive there and stay in your car the whole time while someone comes and does the test. Then you drive home and wait there for the results which should be available in the next 7 seven days or something.

I've seen that in SouthKorea, seemed like a pretty good way
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21691 Posts
March 11 2020 12:13 GMT
#370
On March 11 2020 20:59 Geo.Rion wrote:
Well, things went from 0 to 100 real quickly here (Romania).
There arent any deaths, there are about 25 cases (0 in my county), the following precautions were made:
1. Events with 1000+ people banned.
2. Schools, pre-schools and some universities closed.
3. Some public places like markets, arenas, swimming pools etc closed.
4. There's a red list for places (including the whole of Italy, parts of China, South Korea, Spain, Germany etc), if u come from there 14 days special quarantine, if u come from yellow zones, then 14 day self quarantine.
5. There are police cars now at the border that follow people till they get home (no idea how many of them, no way they have enough people to do it for everyone)
6. Some businesses are sending their workers home if they can do home-office. My employer offered it as an option.

All this was instituted in the past 24-48 hours, when the government found out that tens of thousands people are returning (have returned) from Italy, most of them went unchecked (lied about their stay, avoided checkpoints etc).

I dont think it's an overreaction, since the health infrastructure is quite underdeveloped, so the best (or only if i want to be honest) strategy is to try and contain/minimize the spread. Cuz if there's gonna be suddenly thousands of cases, there s absolutely 0 chance that the current capacity of the hospitals could hold up.

Needless to say, my Barcelona trip is a goner, I got a full refund from the airbnb, cant really get a refund for the airplane and train tickets. Maybe if there's a forced cancellation, then i might get the price of the plane-tickets back.
They want to get ahead of it, rather then play catchup which is imo a good choice.

We're doing pretty much the opposite in the Netherlands. The virus is spreading and control has been lost but the government is only willing to take small steps and keep tries to keep life and the economy going as normal. As a result it will no doubt keep spreading and before long we will be another Italy.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Harris1st
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany6931 Posts
March 11 2020 12:42 GMT
#371
On March 11 2020 20:59 Geo.Rion wrote:
All this was instituted in the past 24-48 hours, when the government found out that tens of thousands people are returning (have returned) from Italy, most of them went unchecked (lied about their stay, avoided checkpoints etc).


But why? I can somewhat understand US Citizens because their health care is shit and everyone knows it.

Why lie? Why not get tested? Don't people wanna know? I don't get it

Go Serral! GG EZ for Ence. Flashbang dance FTW
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
March 11 2020 12:59 GMT
#372
On March 11 2020 21:42 Harris1st wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 11 2020 20:59 Geo.Rion wrote:
All this was instituted in the past 24-48 hours, when the government found out that tens of thousands people are returning (have returned) from Italy, most of them went unchecked (lied about their stay, avoided checkpoints etc).


But why? I can somewhat understand US Citizens because their health care is shit and everyone knows it.

Why lie? Why not get tested? Don't people wanna know? I don't get it


People are stupid...
Even before these new strict rules were implemented, there was a policy, that If u came home from certain parts of Italy, you should self-quarantine, meaning stay home for 2 weeks.
Some people heard about quarantine and understood = hospitals/jails, and wanted to avoid it at all cost. Lot of those who went to work abrod are low skilled labourers, they dont follow current events, and arent aware about stuff like you could manifest sympthoms days later...
In their head, it was something like : "Italy was pretty good place till now, but it's bad now, so we go home and wait it out".

Now obviously, this is only a portion of those people who came back, some were just regular tourists and whatnot, some followed the procedure, but it doesnt take many idiots to start the spread
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25405 Posts
March 11 2020 16:24 GMT
#373
On March 11 2020 16:42 Silvanel wrote:
There has not been a single case reported yet in my city but as preventive measures local government has ordered all theaters, operas, cinemas, fairs and philharmonic to shut down. At the same time Church is increasing number of services....it is retarded.....
It is hard for me as i go to philharmonic every week, i think i will miss at least two concerts. I know it isnt much really but this is something really important for me. Anyway it feels like creeping *something*. Since it was observed in Italy every day it is getting closer and is affecting me in stronger way. I am worried about my mother who is already in retirment age but is still working and on top of that in public administration so has conatct with plenty of people every day.

It’s frustrating, everything feels a bit over the top, least over here.

There are not a huge amount of restrictions on shopping/working commutes etc over here, just on the arts and sport and social activities.

Is it serious or is it not? Will London’s Underground running as normal with people confined in cramped spaces, many of whom probably aren’t 100% heathy really be less of a risk than x sporting event going ahead?
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
March 11 2020 16:28 GMT
#374
My work closed their salad bar over it. (Ohio)
Bonyth
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland565 Posts
March 11 2020 16:35 GMT
#375
How are shops looking in the infected countries? Food, water, toilet paper, basic stuff. My mum is freaking out, and I want to have another point of view from other more infected statistically countries.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
March 11 2020 16:40 GMT
#376
--- Nuked ---
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
March 11 2020 16:41 GMT
#377
On March 12 2020 01:35 Bonyth wrote:
How are shops looking in the infected countries? Food, water, toilet paper, basic stuff. My mum is freaking out, and I want to have another point of view from other more infected statistically countries.

In the US, the hardest things to buy are toilet paper (especially any decent brands), hand sanitizer, and isopropyl alcohol. Other necessities like food and soap are in short supply, but there are enough forms of non-perishable food out there that it’s not hard to find something acceptable.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21691 Posts
March 11 2020 16:46 GMT
#378
On March 12 2020 01:24 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 11 2020 16:42 Silvanel wrote:
There has not been a single case reported yet in my city but as preventive measures local government has ordered all theaters, operas, cinemas, fairs and philharmonic to shut down. At the same time Church is increasing number of services....it is retarded.....
It is hard for me as i go to philharmonic every week, i think i will miss at least two concerts. I know it isnt much really but this is something really important for me. Anyway it feels like creeping *something*. Since it was observed in Italy every day it is getting closer and is affecting me in stronger way. I am worried about my mother who is already in retirment age but is still working and on top of that in public administration so has conatct with plenty of people every day.

It’s frustrating, everything feels a bit over the top, least over here.

There are not a huge amount of restrictions on shopping/working commutes etc over here, just on the arts and sport and social activities.

Is it serious or is it not? Will London’s Underground running as normal with people confined in cramped spaces, many of whom probably aren’t 100% heathy really be less of a risk than x sporting event going ahead?
Metro systems look like a massive area for infection. But shutting it down will have a big economic impact on everything while shutting down sporting events is much more limited.

Its not about containing the virus, its about trying to limit economic damage. But I can't help but wonder if the economic cost isn't lower if you shut down the country for 2 weeks, stop it from spreading and give everyone that is infected time to show symptoms so they can quarantine themselves and then start back up.
Taking half measures that we know have already failed elsewhere just leads to the same result, it spreads like wildfire anyway and you still need to shut down the country but now many more people are infected. See Italy.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
VHbb
Profile Joined October 2014
689 Posts
March 11 2020 16:48 GMT
#379
I'm from Milan, Italy. I currently live in France.

The situation I'm living is close to absurd. I speak with my family/friends from Milan daily, and they are all staying home, going out only for essentials (buying food every once in a while). Many of my friends are doctors working in various hospitals, and what they are telling me is that they are already at full capacity for intensive care, so there is simply no more place. There is no strong sense of panic, but speaking with people in the healthcare system the clear message is that this is going to get much worse before it gets better. With the current strict measures in place we could see an improvement in roughly 1 week, but before that the # of cases which requires intensive care will keep growing exponentially, meaning they will have to triage and reserve intensive care units for serious, but not too serious to be beyond hope, cases.
Waiting time for ambulances has gone up from minutes to up to 1hour. All of this is clearly already a problem for the hospital system (even for non covid19-cases).
This is just part of the view, but it should give an idea.
Food is still in the supermarkets, there is no shortage, and many people are still not taking the measures seriously and going out, etc.


On the other side, here in France people are *not* worried. I have many friends from the region, even doctors (don't know why I have many doctor friends, I'm not in the field...) who keep going to concerts / restaurants / taking public transports.. the general feeling is that if possible one should find a way to avoid the very light restrictions imposed by the french government. E.g., since events with more then 1000 people are banned, they organize events with *just* 1000 people.


I sincerely hope that this will hit France lighter than Italy, but at this point it seems impossible. We (in France) are simply ~ 10 days behind, nothing else.
I speak with people here and they tell me I'm just exaggerating. Then I talk to my family and I hear that it's worse and worse. The disconnect between the two perceptions is very troubling.
I don't really know what I can do other than keep talking with people here, and take my own personal measures to reduce / avoid contacts, but the feeling is a bit frustrating and disheartening ...

My life for Aiur !
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25405 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-03-11 16:57:53
March 11 2020 16:54 GMT
#380
On March 12 2020 01:46 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2020 01:24 Wombat_NI wrote:
On March 11 2020 16:42 Silvanel wrote:
There has not been a single case reported yet in my city but as preventive measures local government has ordered all theaters, operas, cinemas, fairs and philharmonic to shut down. At the same time Church is increasing number of services....it is retarded.....
It is hard for me as i go to philharmonic every week, i think i will miss at least two concerts. I know it isnt much really but this is something really important for me. Anyway it feels like creeping *something*. Since it was observed in Italy every day it is getting closer and is affecting me in stronger way. I am worried about my mother who is already in retirment age but is still working and on top of that in public administration so has conatct with plenty of people every day.

It’s frustrating, everything feels a bit over the top, least over here.

There are not a huge amount of restrictions on shopping/working commutes etc over here, just on the arts and sport and social activities.

Is it serious or is it not? Will London’s Underground running as normal with people confined in cramped spaces, many of whom probably aren’t 100% heathy really be less of a risk than x sporting event going ahead?
Metro systems look like a massive area for infection. But shutting it down will have a big economic impact on everything while shutting down sporting events is much more limited.

Its not about containing the virus, its about trying to limit economic damage. But I can't help but wonder if the economic cost isn't lower if you shut down the country for 2 weeks, stop it from spreading and give everyone that is infected time to show symptoms so they can quarantine themselves and then start back up.
Taking half measures that we know have already failed elsewhere just leads to the same result, it spreads like wildfire anyway and you still need to shut down the country but now many more people are infected. See Italy.

I’d be inclined to agree there. Go hardcore early on, especially as we’re seeing it play out in other countries first and we’re merely lagging behind a bit.

‘The economy’ can take a hit for a week or two. The Chancellor was talking today about pumping a ton of extra money into the NHS and for businesses/people to afford sick pay to stay at home etc. Seems easier to just nip it in the bud and quarantine as many people as possible as early as possible.

Can’t speak for what it’s like elsewhere, I’m frankly sickened by the hoarding and the lack of restrictions on such behaviour. We’ve only got 28 confirmed cases over here it’s crazy!
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
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