Alt-right terminology / symbolism - Page 7
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crnm95
37 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States42201 Posts
On November 04 2019 03:10 crnm95 wrote: Oh look another debate between neurotic “No Fun Allowed”-authoritarians and those less hysterically unreasonable I think the subject is a bit more nuanced than that though, considering dog-whistling is a very real thing, politically and culturally. | ||
Pistolen-Luuk
32 Posts
Actually an early meme was made by artist David Horvicz in 2009. If you google 241543903 you'll see people sticking their heads in freezers. | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada15564 Posts
On November 03 2019 01:43 Xxio wrote: I searched for an objective description of the alt-right and found this article by Oxford Research Group: https://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.uk/blog/the-alt-right-an-introduction-part-i. I'm glad for the dry, academic analysis. Does anyone have good resources for understanding what the alt-right is? They seem kind of like the antifa of the other side of the spectrum, both being militant and amorphous. from your link. `the “alt-right” generally rejects Christianity and free market/capitalist policies as universalist and destructive of the West. ` The far-right or alt-right guys that i knew didn't offer a fully functional social system to replace the current one. All they had were polemics. So they reject the free market and capitalism without offering an alternative. This makes the whole thing untenable. At least the Communists offer an alternative system. At least the Communists offer a coherent alternative. Its impossible to take these alt-right guys seriously when they don't offer a coherent alternative and they just complain about everything being wrong. | ||
Pistolen-Luuk
32 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11334 Posts
The system of the alt right is fascism. You have a social hierarchy, but instead of it being based on the pretense of a meritocracy like liberalism, it's based on identity traits. By virtue of having an identity that the fascists like, you get to be on top of society, regardless of your individual skills. It won't be a fully free market cause you have to do national preference and some forms of discrimination but capitalism is compatible with that; you don't really need to change the system, just tweak it a little. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20677 Posts
On November 03 2019 16:24 IgnE wrote: No I disagree. There have been plenty of productive, socially well-adjusted people who are sports fans for decades and decades before computer games. Games, on the other hand, encourage a withdrawal from society (apathy towards works, towards hobbies that are not virtual, towards meeting new people, etc.) in a way that fandom does not. I was more making the point that there’s having a hobby, and there’s having it form part of your identity and how you see yourself, nothing positive or negative about the particular activities themselves. Any as per your point yes it is a hobby that can be detrimental for the ways you mentioned. On the other hand plenty of people have bad social skills, anxiety and all sorts and can find themselves less isolated than they would otherwise through activities like gaming. | ||
pmh
1344 Posts
On November 03 2019 16:24 IgnE wrote: No I disagree. There have been plenty of productive, socially well-adjusted people who are sports fans for decades and decades before computer games. Games, on the other hand, encourage a withdrawal from society (apathy towards works, towards hobbies that are not virtual, towards meeting new people, etc.) in a way that fandom does not. You are very right. Games are a "problem" and have quiet an impact on the direction in which society goes. I think games play an important role in the individualization of society in general. It is no longer awkward and boring to sit in your room alone,now you have something to do. You no longer need other people to give your life meaning,the game provides all your emotional needs,your highs and your lows. | ||
DarkPlasmaBall
United States42201 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28254 Posts
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Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
On November 03 2019 02:57 Danglars wrote: I just need to know you're serious when you called JimmyJRaynor Then you're well underestimating the 25-45% of far right parties. Taking JJR as somebody basically far right, I'd say far right parties number in the 60%+ range. This wouldn't be the first time I thought your characterizations are profoundly silly. First things first: many people mean "alt-right" in purely terms of political games. Label your opposition alt-right, act outraged or shocked that normal people support them or that they're allowed a voice on TV and events, and (hopefully) reap more political power. Secondly, more people won't investigate their views or policies because they're this alt-right boogeyman unworthy of much attention. Now this discussion can continue after removing the alt-right-as-political-weapon, because there are some real people in the world holding views that are accurately described as alt-right. From the article, thoughts and where I stand on them:
Thanks for writing it out like that. A lot of it looks fine to me. Of course there are people in that grouping who, in my opinion, take it too far - just as there are people who take leftist positions too far. It seems to me that antifa, communists, anarchists and so on on the far left are given the benefit of the doubt, the bad actors are usually ignored, and there is assumption of good will. The opposite lens is cast on the alt-right or any right wing initiative. Maybe it comes down to perceived intent outweighing actual results and behavior. I think the Douglas Murray quote makes a very good point. Overall, I wish people would think much more about culture and much less about race. | ||
crnm95
37 Posts
On November 04 2019 03:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I think the subject is a bit more nuanced than that though, considering dog-whistling is a very real thing, politically and culturally. I didnt believe but I just opened up TwitchChat thereby exposing myself to Pepe memes. YOU WERE RIGHT!!! I AM NOW AN ALT-RIGHT FASCIST!!! PepeHands User was banned for this post. | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada15564 Posts
On November 04 2019 05:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Rejecting Christianity is absolutely not one of the tenets of the alt-right, and there is plenty of overlap between Christians and alt-righters. the Alt-righers i know ... most are atheists and blame christianity for all kinds of stuff. This aligns with Gray's research which I got from another poster's link. This also aligns with others who've done in depth research into the movement. You, otoh, claim rejecting christianity "is absolutely not one of tenets" of this movement. This is just one example of how ill defined this "alt-right" is. I asked these guys how the monetary system is supposed to work in this amazing new world. They had no coherent answers. I asked about the foundation of the legal system. Again, no coherent answers. So ya, its hard to take these guys seriously. I suggested they get some expert lawyers, expert economists and expert accountants into their little "movement". To their credit they agreed they need to do that. I suspect the far righties, far leftiies, communists and alt-righters all draw from the same pool of low self esteem, zero life experience, socially maladjusted, angry young people. There will always be crazy ideologies floating around. I wouldn't get too excited about this latest wave of stupidity. There is another wave coming next decade just as there was every previous decade. The best preventative measure against the crazy incoherent ideologies is strong children who are raised by strong families. | ||
Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On November 04 2019 05:32 Xxio wrote: Thanks for writing it out like that. A lot of it looks fine to me. Of course there are people in that grouping who, in my opinion, take it too far - just as there are people who take leftist positions too far. It seems to me that antifa, communists, anarchists and so on on the far left are given the benefit of the doubt, the bad actors are usually ignored, and there is assumption of good will. The opposite lens is cast on the alt-right or any right wing initiative. Maybe it comes down to perceived intent outweighing actual results and behavior. I think the Douglas Murray quote makes a very good point. Overall, I wish people would think much more about culture and much less about race. I also agree with the connection between true alt-right proponents and antifa-associates in taking nuanced truths too far in a direction. You can take the Murray point too far right and come out in favor of white ethnic enclaves, white pride marches, anti-trade/globalism. The thinking errs on oversimplicity. Similarly, on the left, you can go too far in the "everything but white males deserve celebration, so shut up you oppressors," and come out in favor of beating up journalists, shutting down marches, and silencing dissent to save society. This isn't really a novel thought of mine, it's been said a million times by others since Trump's election. It's much easier to give good will to people with real economic gripes that just look like frustration. This antifa guy probably won't own a house like his parents, raise a family on a single income like his parents, and pay off his student loans fairly quickly after graduation. It's hard to see how he'll search out the good aspects of capitalism, or blame market failure on distinctly anti-capitalistic trends. That looks like someone you might sympathize with, just misguided and driving further down a wrong road. Just reading down the list of alt-right diagnostic criteria, I pick up quite a few that just disgusts me at a core level. My current revulsion at the alt-left or far-left groups is more taught or acquired by contrast. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20677 Posts
On November 04 2019 05:14 pmh wrote: You are very right. Games are a "problem" and have quiet an impact on the direction in which society goes. I think games play an important role in the individualization of society in general. It is no longer awkward and boring to sit in your room alone,now you have something to do. You no longer need other people to give your life meaning,the game provides all your emotional needs,your highs and your lows. I’d personally view it as a symptom than a cause. Aside from a decline in community social hubs like churches, there’s been an expansion of the expectations of capitalism too. 24/7 convenience living requires workers to service it, and social lives suffer as a consequence. Plus the rather disposable nature of zero hours contracts, non-fixed hours etc. I’ve had periods where I had tons of free time but was a complete social recluse. Night shifts do not dovetail well with having any kind of social life, so I played a lot of games as I had fuck all else to do. Now I’m on a schedule similar to my friends I basically only game with my kid when he’s over to visit. People, especially older people like to complain about the youth being on their phones and a lack of community cohesion, but they’re completely oblivious to their culpability in this state of affairs. | ||
Nebuchad
Switzerland11334 Posts
On November 04 2019 05:32 Xxio wrote: Thanks for writing it out like that. A lot of it looks fine to me. Of course there are people in that grouping who, in my opinion, take it too far - just as there are people who take leftist positions too far. It seems to me that antifa, communists, anarchists and so on on the far left are given the benefit of the doubt, the bad actors are usually ignored, and there is assumption of good will. The opposite lens is cast on the alt-right or any right wing initiative. Maybe it comes down to perceived intent outweighing actual results and behavior. I think the Douglas Murray quote makes a very good point. Overall, I wish people would think much more about culture and much less about race. Antifa is good. You'll find that we hear less about violence from the left not only because the left is less violent, but also because we generally hear less from the left altogether, radical or otherwise. The radicalism from the right is given an undue importance in the discourse, and then it's blamed and criticized, because it's irrational and morally reprehensible. This creates an enemy for liberalism that liberalism is very obviously superior to, and that's part of a strategy. | ||
Nebuchad
Switzerland11334 Posts
On November 04 2019 05:34 crnm95 wrote: I didnt believe but I just opened up TwitchChat thereby exposing myself to Pepe memes. YOU WERE RIGHT!!! I AM NOW AN ALT-RIGHT FASCIST!!! PepeHands No of course not. But we now perceive leftwingers to be shrill idiots who complain about nothing, and this is making us less likely to hear them out. They keep us from just enjoying our games and our community, fucking social justice warriors, I just want to beat some protosses ffs. Let's ostracize them, so that we don't have to hear from their nonsense again. And this other dude also, I know he's been a gamer for years but he seemed to agree with the leftist dude, probably should remove him as well, probably undercover. Also this nazi dude, he uses the same symbols as us, he is part of our community. He is humanized. Is he really a nazi? He could be an ironic nazi, isn't that a funny meme, after all who is a nazi? Those ideas are atrocious, universally condemned, no one is a nazi really. Remember how hysterical the left is? I bet they called him a nazi because they're hysterical, I bet they called him a nazi because they think everyone right of Stalin is a nazi. His ideas are probably not as bad as they say, he could be just a tradcath that is being maligned. I suddenly know a lot about the subtle differences between far right political ideologies, I wonder how that came to happen. The left is the real enemy, even if we don't agree on everything we could probably work together. Also he raised a good point about cultures the other day, and since we've chased all the leftists from the community because they were hysterical, nobody answered. If nobody answered I see no reason to assume that he was wrong there. That's interesting. | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada15564 Posts
On November 04 2019 06:19 Danglars wrote: It's much easier to give good will to people with real economic gripes that just look like frustration. This antifa guy probably won't own a house like his parents, raise a family on a single income like his parents, and pay off his student loans fairly quickly after graduation. It's hard to see how he'll search out the good aspects of capitalism, or blame market failure on distinctly anti-capitalistic trends. That looks like someone you might sympathize with, just misguided and driving further down a wrong road. Just reading down the list of alt-right diagnostic criteria, I pick up quite a few that just disgusts me at a core level. My current revulsion at the alt-left or far-left groups is more taught or acquired by contrast. i was born in '87 in southern Ontario. Since forever up until 1994 Canada had an extremely high median standard of living. From 1994 to 2008 the standard of living rose by 22.4% in Canada and by even more in southern Ontario. Southern Ontario is the epicenter of economic opportunity in Canada. And yet, the internet cafe where I hung out had a Communist group, a far right group and an alt-right group. All the guys in these groups whined and complained like they were living in a slave society. personal story details + Show Spoiler + i knew guys who hadn't graduated from high school who had $30/hour construction jobs at age 17. One guy punched out his construction foreman boss. A week later he got another construction job for $30/hour. Employers were mega desperate for employees. I got a part time job in high school doing software testing for database software apps. In my last year of high school their main database programmer demanded $150/hour. They offered me the job. So when I was 17 i was building database software apps. Mainly, it was because employers were so desperate for hard working employees. The apps were not super sophisticated and mastering ANSI SQL isn't exactly rocket science. Driving force behind me getting any kind of work in database software applications as a teenager was ... employers were desperate. so listening to these whiners with these bizarre ideologies moan and whine about how horrible Ontario and Canada were... it was really comical. Like most people growing up during that era I took advantage of the great economic conditions and amazing opportunities. A small minority of people did not; some of those guys gravitated to these extreme groups even in the face of very favourable conditions. Southern Ontario was just fine. These sad weak people are the problem. In my view it boils down to poor self esteem , lack of life experience, and lack of will power. These people would rather just blame "the system". It is a lot easier that way. "Making it" is hard work. Its easier to bitch, moan, whine and complain. | ||
CoupdeBoule
73 Posts
On November 04 2019 06:55 Nebuchad wrote: No of course not. But we now perceive leftwingers to be shrill idiots who complain about nothing, and this is making us less likely to hear them out. They keep us from just enjoying our games and our community, fucking social justice warriors, I just want to beat some protosses ffs. Let's ostracize them, so that we don't have to hear from their nonsense again. And this other dude also, I know he's been a gamer for years but he seemed to agree with the leftist dude, probably should remove him as well, probably undercover. Also this nazi dude, he uses the same symbols as us, he is part of our community. He is humanized. Is he really a nazi? He could be an ironic nazi, isn't that a funny meme, after all who is a nazi? Those ideas are atrocious, universally condemned, no one is a nazi really. Remember how hysterical the left is? I bet they called him a nazi because they're hysterical, I bet they called him a nazi because they think everyone right of Stalin is a nazi. His ideas are probably not as bad as they say, he could be just a tradcath that is being maligned. I suddenly know a lot about the subtle differences between far right political ideologies, I wonder how that came to happen. The left is the real enemy, even if we don't agree on everything we could probably work together. Also he raised a good point about cultures the other day, and since we've chased all the leftists from the community because they were hysterical, nobody answered. If nobody answered I see no reason to assume that he was wrong there. That's interesting. Telling that you seem to think this is a left/right issue and not an authoritarian (such as -you guessed it!- nazis) vs freedom issue. | ||
Nebuchad
Switzerland11334 Posts
On November 04 2019 07:07 CoupdeBoule wrote: Telling that you seem to think this is a left/right issue and not an authoritarian (such as -you guessed it!- nazis) vs freedom issue. Yes of course. Nazism isn't only defined by its authoritarianism, it's also a fascist ideology, and therefore reactionary and rightwing. You will always recruit nazis through social views first, and then tell them that the authoritarianism is necessary to save the nation from all the bad people, progress, and the jews. | ||
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