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The problem with this discussion is that nearly everyone is stuck in the same rat maze of Modern and inherently derivative post-Modern ideas. It seems everyone agrees that the Titanic (Modernity) is sinking but disagree if by fire or ice. The Right, it seems to me is flopping around, trying to find an alternative, while the Left is punching that Higher Taxes button from Office Depot.
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On November 04 2019 09:03 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2019 07:45 CoupdeBoule wrote:On November 04 2019 07:13 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2019 07:07 CoupdeBoule wrote:On November 04 2019 06:55 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2019 05:34 crnm95 wrote:On November 04 2019 03:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 04 2019 03:10 crnm95 wrote:
Oh look another debate between neurotic “No Fun Allowed”-authoritarians and those less hysterically unreasonable I think the subject is a bit more nuanced than that though, considering dog-whistling is a very real thing, politically and culturally. I didnt believe but I just opened up TwitchChat thereby exposing myself to Pepe memes. YOU WERE RIGHT!!! I AM NOW AN ALT-RIGHT FASCIST!!! PepeHands No of course not. But we now perceive leftwingers to be shrill idiots who complain about nothing, and this is making us less likely to hear them out. They keep us from just enjoying our games and our community, fucking social justice warriors, I just want to beat some protosses ffs. Let's ostracize them, so that we don't have to hear from their nonsense again. And this other dude also, I know he's been a gamer for years but he seemed to agree with the leftist dude, probably should remove him as well, probably undercover. Also this nazi dude, he uses the same symbols as us, he is part of our community. He is humanized. Is he really a nazi? He could be an ironic nazi, isn't that a funny meme, after all who is a nazi? Those ideas are atrocious, universally condemned, no one is a nazi really. Remember how hysterical the left is? I bet they called him a nazi because they're hysterical, I bet they called him a nazi because they think everyone right of Stalin is a nazi. His ideas are probably not as bad as they say, he could be just a tradcath that is being maligned. I suddenly know a lot about the subtle differences between far right political ideologies, I wonder how that came to happen. The left is the real enemy, even if we don't agree on everything we could probably work together. Also he raised a good point about cultures the other day, and since we've chased all the leftists from the community because they were hysterical, nobody answered. If nobody answered I see no reason to assume that he was wrong there. That's interesting. Telling that you seem to think this is a left/right issue and not an authoritarian (such as -you guessed it!- nazis) vs freedom issue. Yes of course. Nazism isn't only defined by its authoritarianism, it's also a fascist ideology, and therefore reactionary and rightwing. You will always recruit nazis through social views first, and then tell them that the authoritarianism is necessary to save the nation from all the bad people, progress, and the jews. You mind walking me through how you define fascism? (Offtopic but im really curious after reading what you wrote) As for people falling prey to dangerous ideology and extremism, Im more of a believer in “pray for broader shoulders, not lighter burdens” - lets lay out to people why something leads nowhere good instead of going after people being silly just because some alt-right crazies decided to try to claim some of the perfectly innocent symbols. Think of all political ideologies as they relate to social hierarchies. Leftwing ideologies think social hierarchies are bad, and should be eliminated or reduced. Rightwing ideologies think social hierarchies are either a necessary evil or a good thing, and that they should be maintained or increased. The main social hierarchy today is capitalism. From that starting point: Far right is when you want a radical change in society, so that there is an increased level of importance for social hierarchies compared to liberal capitalism. There is a helpful line that we use to define the limit where you stop being rightwing and start being far right: in liberalism, you are (supposed to be) where you are in society because of the amount of effort you've put into where you are (american dream, meritocracy, all that bullshit). In the far right, there is some element of your identity that becomes relevant to where you are in the social hierarchy. It can be anything; religion in theocracies, race in nazism, it can even be something really vague like tradition or culture in the far right forms of conservatism. Note that even our liberal center right systems generally retain some far right elements because your identity typically has some influence on where you are likely to be in society - this is where privilege comes in, but also more generally you're better off as a citizen than as an immigrant in every liberal country as far as I know, that was the whole point of having those immigration waves in the first place. The ideal society for the far right is one where there is a rigid social hierarchy, where "you and the people you like", however defined, are on top, and the others are second class citizens, below you. They are to be exploited and discriminated against. Fascism ostensibly has "the nation" as the people they like, but it also borrows from the traditional social hierarchies in that man > woman, straight > queer, cis > trans, white > black (in the first world). It recognizes that authoritarianism is necessary to create the society that it wants, so it is also authoritarian. Fascism isn't very distinct from other far right ideologies in how it functions, but it's distinct in its propaganda, and that's due to the propaganda of WW2 mostly. Like all far right ideologies, fascism is intellectually bankrupt and definitionally irrational, in that it posits an ideal society that isn't based on any kind of rational analysis of the world, just on what you feel good about and what you feel bad about. But fascism has embraced this irrationality and uses it to posit a mythical worldview. The modern world is plagued by degeneracy, there was a specific time in the somewhat distant past where the world was good and moral and it is crucial that we come back to that point no matter the means. It's kind of an epic tale, with grandiose fights and crusades that other far right ideologies don't necessarily have. Which makes it both more attractive to people with far right inclinations, and arguably more dangerous, as the mythology creates a concrete goal and a sense of urgency that you don't find in, for example, traditional religious conservatism.
I agree with a lot of how you have framed this, but I don't see any real sense of balance. You don't seem to address what level of "Rightness" is appropriate or what positive relationship it has as a balance to the Left.
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On November 07 2019 17:57 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2019 09:03 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2019 07:45 CoupdeBoule wrote:On November 04 2019 07:13 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2019 07:07 CoupdeBoule wrote:On November 04 2019 06:55 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2019 05:34 crnm95 wrote:On November 04 2019 03:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 04 2019 03:10 crnm95 wrote:
Oh look another debate between neurotic “No Fun Allowed”-authoritarians and those less hysterically unreasonable I think the subject is a bit more nuanced than that though, considering dog-whistling is a very real thing, politically and culturally. I didnt believe but I just opened up TwitchChat thereby exposing myself to Pepe memes. YOU WERE RIGHT!!! I AM NOW AN ALT-RIGHT FASCIST!!! PepeHands No of course not. But we now perceive leftwingers to be shrill idiots who complain about nothing, and this is making us less likely to hear them out. They keep us from just enjoying our games and our community, fucking social justice warriors, I just want to beat some protosses ffs. Let's ostracize them, so that we don't have to hear from their nonsense again. And this other dude also, I know he's been a gamer for years but he seemed to agree with the leftist dude, probably should remove him as well, probably undercover. Also this nazi dude, he uses the same symbols as us, he is part of our community. He is humanized. Is he really a nazi? He could be an ironic nazi, isn't that a funny meme, after all who is a nazi? Those ideas are atrocious, universally condemned, no one is a nazi really. Remember how hysterical the left is? I bet they called him a nazi because they're hysterical, I bet they called him a nazi because they think everyone right of Stalin is a nazi. His ideas are probably not as bad as they say, he could be just a tradcath that is being maligned. I suddenly know a lot about the subtle differences between far right political ideologies, I wonder how that came to happen. The left is the real enemy, even if we don't agree on everything we could probably work together. Also he raised a good point about cultures the other day, and since we've chased all the leftists from the community because they were hysterical, nobody answered. If nobody answered I see no reason to assume that he was wrong there. That's interesting. Telling that you seem to think this is a left/right issue and not an authoritarian (such as -you guessed it!- nazis) vs freedom issue. Yes of course. Nazism isn't only defined by its authoritarianism, it's also a fascist ideology, and therefore reactionary and rightwing. You will always recruit nazis through social views first, and then tell them that the authoritarianism is necessary to save the nation from all the bad people, progress, and the jews. You mind walking me through how you define fascism? (Offtopic but im really curious after reading what you wrote) As for people falling prey to dangerous ideology and extremism, Im more of a believer in “pray for broader shoulders, not lighter burdens” - lets lay out to people why something leads nowhere good instead of going after people being silly just because some alt-right crazies decided to try to claim some of the perfectly innocent symbols. Think of all political ideologies as they relate to social hierarchies. Leftwing ideologies think social hierarchies are bad, and should be eliminated or reduced. Rightwing ideologies think social hierarchies are either a necessary evil or a good thing, and that they should be maintained or increased. The main social hierarchy today is capitalism. From that starting point: Far right is when you want a radical change in society, so that there is an increased level of importance for social hierarchies compared to liberal capitalism. There is a helpful line that we use to define the limit where you stop being rightwing and start being far right: in liberalism, you are (supposed to be) where you are in society because of the amount of effort you've put into where you are (american dream, meritocracy, all that bullshit). In the far right, there is some element of your identity that becomes relevant to where you are in the social hierarchy. It can be anything; religion in theocracies, race in nazism, it can even be something really vague like tradition or culture in the far right forms of conservatism. Note that even our liberal center right systems generally retain some far right elements because your identity typically has some influence on where you are likely to be in society - this is where privilege comes in, but also more generally you're better off as a citizen than as an immigrant in every liberal country as far as I know, that was the whole point of having those immigration waves in the first place. The ideal society for the far right is one where there is a rigid social hierarchy, where "you and the people you like", however defined, are on top, and the others are second class citizens, below you. They are to be exploited and discriminated against. Fascism ostensibly has "the nation" as the people they like, but it also borrows from the traditional social hierarchies in that man > woman, straight > queer, cis > trans, white > black (in the first world). It recognizes that authoritarianism is necessary to create the society that it wants, so it is also authoritarian. Fascism isn't very distinct from other far right ideologies in how it functions, but it's distinct in its propaganda, and that's due to the propaganda of WW2 mostly. Like all far right ideologies, fascism is intellectually bankrupt and definitionally irrational, in that it posits an ideal society that isn't based on any kind of rational analysis of the world, just on what you feel good about and what you feel bad about. But fascism has embraced this irrationality and uses it to posit a mythical worldview. The modern world is plagued by degeneracy, there was a specific time in the somewhat distant past where the world was good and moral and it is crucial that we come back to that point no matter the means. It's kind of an epic tale, with grandiose fights and crusades that other far right ideologies don't necessarily have. Which makes it both more attractive to people with far right inclinations, and arguably more dangerous, as the mythology creates a concrete goal and a sense of urgency that you don't find in, for example, traditional religious conservatism. I agree with a lot of how you have framed this, but I don't see any real sense of balance. You don't seem to address what level of "Rightness" is appropriate or what positive relationship it has as a balance to the Left.
I've thought about how to answer this but it's hard to do without knowing for sure what you mean. Considering we're talking core level of politics here, I would argue that we're still in the phase of the discussion where the goal is to defeat the other rather than the phase where we're compromising and balancing. So in that sense, the right is the opponent and brings absolutely nothing positive, and about 0% is an appropriate level of it, eh.
I also don't know that modernity is in crisis because I associate that term with progress and progressivism. I do believe liberalism is in crisis though, and I think that's a dangerous but ultimately good thing.
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On November 08 2019 17:26 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2019 17:57 Jerubaal wrote:On November 04 2019 09:03 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2019 07:45 CoupdeBoule wrote:On November 04 2019 07:13 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2019 07:07 CoupdeBoule wrote:On November 04 2019 06:55 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2019 05:34 crnm95 wrote:On November 04 2019 03:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 04 2019 03:10 crnm95 wrote:
Oh look another debate between neurotic “No Fun Allowed”-authoritarians and those less hysterically unreasonable I think the subject is a bit more nuanced than that though, considering dog-whistling is a very real thing, politically and culturally. I didnt believe but I just opened up TwitchChat thereby exposing myself to Pepe memes. YOU WERE RIGHT!!! I AM NOW AN ALT-RIGHT FASCIST!!! PepeHands No of course not. But we now perceive leftwingers to be shrill idiots who complain about nothing, and this is making us less likely to hear them out. They keep us from just enjoying our games and our community, fucking social justice warriors, I just want to beat some protosses ffs. Let's ostracize them, so that we don't have to hear from their nonsense again. And this other dude also, I know he's been a gamer for years but he seemed to agree with the leftist dude, probably should remove him as well, probably undercover. Also this nazi dude, he uses the same symbols as us, he is part of our community. He is humanized. Is he really a nazi? He could be an ironic nazi, isn't that a funny meme, after all who is a nazi? Those ideas are atrocious, universally condemned, no one is a nazi really. Remember how hysterical the left is? I bet they called him a nazi because they're hysterical, I bet they called him a nazi because they think everyone right of Stalin is a nazi. His ideas are probably not as bad as they say, he could be just a tradcath that is being maligned. I suddenly know a lot about the subtle differences between far right political ideologies, I wonder how that came to happen. The left is the real enemy, even if we don't agree on everything we could probably work together. Also he raised a good point about cultures the other day, and since we've chased all the leftists from the community because they were hysterical, nobody answered. If nobody answered I see no reason to assume that he was wrong there. That's interesting. Telling that you seem to think this is a left/right issue and not an authoritarian (such as -you guessed it!- nazis) vs freedom issue. Yes of course. Nazism isn't only defined by its authoritarianism, it's also a fascist ideology, and therefore reactionary and rightwing. You will always recruit nazis through social views first, and then tell them that the authoritarianism is necessary to save the nation from all the bad people, progress, and the jews. You mind walking me through how you define fascism? (Offtopic but im really curious after reading what you wrote) As for people falling prey to dangerous ideology and extremism, Im more of a believer in “pray for broader shoulders, not lighter burdens” - lets lay out to people why something leads nowhere good instead of going after people being silly just because some alt-right crazies decided to try to claim some of the perfectly innocent symbols. Think of all political ideologies as they relate to social hierarchies. Leftwing ideologies think social hierarchies are bad, and should be eliminated or reduced. Rightwing ideologies think social hierarchies are either a necessary evil or a good thing, and that they should be maintained or increased. The main social hierarchy today is capitalism. From that starting point: Far right is when you want a radical change in society, so that there is an increased level of importance for social hierarchies compared to liberal capitalism. There is a helpful line that we use to define the limit where you stop being rightwing and start being far right: in liberalism, you are (supposed to be) where you are in society because of the amount of effort you've put into where you are (american dream, meritocracy, all that bullshit). In the far right, there is some element of your identity that becomes relevant to where you are in the social hierarchy. It can be anything; religion in theocracies, race in nazism, it can even be something really vague like tradition or culture in the far right forms of conservatism. Note that even our liberal center right systems generally retain some far right elements because your identity typically has some influence on where you are likely to be in society - this is where privilege comes in, but also more generally you're better off as a citizen than as an immigrant in every liberal country as far as I know, that was the whole point of having those immigration waves in the first place. The ideal society for the far right is one where there is a rigid social hierarchy, where "you and the people you like", however defined, are on top, and the others are second class citizens, below you. They are to be exploited and discriminated against. Fascism ostensibly has "the nation" as the people they like, but it also borrows from the traditional social hierarchies in that man > woman, straight > queer, cis > trans, white > black (in the first world). It recognizes that authoritarianism is necessary to create the society that it wants, so it is also authoritarian. Fascism isn't very distinct from other far right ideologies in how it functions, but it's distinct in its propaganda, and that's due to the propaganda of WW2 mostly. Like all far right ideologies, fascism is intellectually bankrupt and definitionally irrational, in that it posits an ideal society that isn't based on any kind of rational analysis of the world, just on what you feel good about and what you feel bad about. But fascism has embraced this irrationality and uses it to posit a mythical worldview. The modern world is plagued by degeneracy, there was a specific time in the somewhat distant past where the world was good and moral and it is crucial that we come back to that point no matter the means. It's kind of an epic tale, with grandiose fights and crusades that other far right ideologies don't necessarily have. Which makes it both more attractive to people with far right inclinations, and arguably more dangerous, as the mythology creates a concrete goal and a sense of urgency that you don't find in, for example, traditional religious conservatism. I agree with a lot of how you have framed this, but I don't see any real sense of balance. You don't seem to address what level of "Rightness" is appropriate or what positive relationship it has as a balance to the Left. I've thought about how to answer this but it's hard to do without knowing for sure what you mean. Considering we're talking core level of politics here, I would argue that we're still in the phase of the discussion where the goal is to defeat the other rather than the phase where we're compromising and balancing. So in that sense, the right is the opponent and brings absolutely nothing positive, and about 0% is an appropriate level of it, eh. I also don't know that modernity is in crisis because I associate that term with progress and progressivism. I do believe liberalism is in crisis though, and I think that's a dangerous but ultimately good thing.
I'm not being polemical.
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EPT
