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Creating polls with physical violence against an individual or group as an option, or advocating for / supporting physical violence against an individual or group in a post = ban. This is your only warning. |
On November 02 2019 13:53 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +The other framing is also “Yet I do feel there is a lack of resistance or criticism on this” as OP wants to think about them as something to be resisted or criticized, rather than just to think about terminology as disconnected or connected to the alt-right. If people like the OP didn't get so worked up about it then there wouldn't be half as much of it. Of course with the ease that many people are offended these days this could be applied to pretty much everything, not just a cartoon frog.
The problem when it comes to nazis trying to coopt gamer language in order to recruit is that leftists react too harshly against it sure is a take.
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On November 02 2019 13:53 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +The other framing is also “Yet I do feel there is a lack of resistance or criticism on this” as OP wants to think about them as something to be resisted or criticized, rather than just to think about terminology as disconnected or connected to the alt-right. If people like the OP didn't get so worked up about it then there wouldn't be half as much of it. Of course with the ease that many people are offended these days this could be applied to pretty much everything, not just a cartoon frog.
There is a great book about the new generation of perpetually offended youth.
"The Coddling Of The American Mind" .... "America - Home of the Anxious and the Fragile"
Here is the "right wing" view of this book.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/
Here is the "left wing" view of this book.
+ Show Spoiler +
Children are far more over protected compared to previous generations. Adult interference in the lives of children is at an all time high in rich 1st world countries. This leads to children unable to deal with basic life challenges. Every time someone calls them a bad name too many in the new generation of youth goes unhinged. Also, they go looking for new "bad words" when they aren't hearing enough of the standard "bad words".
These terrible words and the terrible horrible awful people who say them ...
are their explanation/excuse for why they can't , as young adults , handle the basic challenges of life.
On November 02 2019 20:59 Pr0wler wrote:
At first I thought that this thread is a joke... Now I'm worried.
I'm not worried.
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Yes in my experience conservatives never get offended about anything. It's unbelievable, you can bend the knee for a protest and they don't say a word, they would never do something like burn their Nikes or toss their coffee machine because they don't like an advertisement choice or get offended by a movie about them being hunted by elites so much that the movie gets cancelled. It's good that they escaped the coddling that is plaguing the left.
This is the first layer of a response but you also need to add that talking about the rise of the far right is not something that you do because you're offended, it's something that you do because you're afraid. The far right is dangerous, it actively makes the world a worst place. Looking for steps to counter them when they try and recruit young gamers is a good and rational thing to do. A lot of your core beliefs develop when you're a teen, deprogramming people is very hard.
And of course, the last layer is to remember that people like Jimmy and Nettles are basically far right, or so far right adjacent that the difference doesn't particularly matter. I don't know whether they realize or not that the right gets offended at seeing a brown woman play a mermaid in a movie because that's white genocide and that this reality makes their complaining about the left's offense ridiculous. Maybe they don't. But if they did, it wouldn't change a thing about how they discuss this.
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On November 02 2019 22:04 Nebuchad wrote:
And of course, the last layer is to remember that people like Jimmy and Nettles are basically far right, or so far right adjacent that the difference doesn't particularly matter. I don't know whether they realize or not that the right gets offended at seeing a brown woman play a mermaid in a movie because that's white genocide and that this reality makes their complaining about the left's offense ridiculous. Maybe they don't. But if they did, it wouldn't change a thing about how they discuss this.
check the author of "The Coddling of the American Mind". He is a hard core left winger who probably knows 10,000 times more about the state of US colleges than you do.
check my entries in the Canada Politics thread. I think Bob Rae of the NDP did a great job leading Ontario from 1990 and 1995. In the thread I also claim Jean Chretien is the best Prime Minister Canada has had in the past 50 years.
The stupidest thing an Ontario Premier ever did that ended up wrecking the province was privatize Ontario Hydro. When it was run by the government, Ontario had the lowest hydro prices in North America; working at Ontario Hydro paid very well and offered a great working environment.
so, ya. whatever man.
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How does the author being a leftwinger change the argument in any way?
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On November 02 2019 22:04 Nebuchad wrote:
Yes in my experience conservatives never get offended about anything. It's unbelievable, you can bend the knee for a protest and they don't say a word, they would never do something like burn their Nikes or toss their coffee machine because they don't like an advertisement choice or get offended by a movie about them being hunted by elites so much that the movie gets cancelled. It's good that they escaped the coddling that is plaguing the left.
This is the first layer of a response but you also need to add that talking about the rise of the far right is not something that you do because you're offended, it's something that you do because you're afraid. The far right is dangerous, it actively makes the world a worst place. Looking for steps to counter them when they try and recruit young gamers is a good and rational thing to do. A lot of your core beliefs develop when you're a teen, deprogramming people is very hard.
And of course, the last layer is to remember that people like Jimmy and Nettles are basically far right, or so far right adjacent that the difference doesn't particularly matter. I don't know whether they realize or not that the right gets offended at seeing a brown woman play a mermaid in a movie because that's white genocide and that this reality makes their complaining about the left's offense ridiculous. Maybe they don't. But if they did, it wouldn't change a thing about how they discuss this.
Lol JimmyJRaynor far-right or far-right adjacent? I wouldn’t talk about de-programming teens, if your programming results in such a laughable conclusion.
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It's okay Danglars we just have a difference in opinions about Jimmy and I know you respect diversity of thought.
Who is and isn't far right is the least interesting question ever though. Far right parties get 25 to 45% of the vote in all the west and nobody is ever far right when you talk to them.
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Norway28727 Posts
I mean I think the critique in the 'Agenda with Steve Paikin' (presented as the 'left wing view') video JJR linked above is really spot on. (To be fair, I didn't watch it all, but from how far I have gotten. ) 'Free play' is absolutely fantastic for children's development and there's a growing trend in the west that kids have less time for that because so much of their time is spent doing adult-organized (and adult-supervised) activities. Granted, I haven't been a teacher for that long, so I can't comment on trends going back decades, but I do have a feeling that too many kids these days ask adults to resolve some conflict that back when I was a kid myself, we would have resolved without any adult interference.
So even though I normally don't agree much with JJR on politics, I don't really have an issue with this particular point. (Although I also think there's an element on his behalf of projecting his own personality as an ideal for other people, but most of us are prolly fairly guilty of that. )
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Canada5565 Posts
I searched for an objective description of the alt-right and found this article by Oxford Research Group: https://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.uk/blog/the-alt-right-an-introduction-part-i. I'm glad for the dry, academic analysis. Does anyone have good resources for understanding what the alt-right is? They seem kind of like the antifa of the other side of the spectrum, both being militant and amorphous.
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On November 03 2019 01:42 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I mean I think the critique in the 'Agenda with Steve Paikin' (presented as the 'left wing view') video JJR linked above is really spot on. (To be fair, I didn't watch it all, but from how far I have gotten. ) 'Free play' is absolutely fantastic for children's development and there's a growing trend in the west that kids have less time for that because so much of their time is spent doing adult-organized (and adult-supervised) activities. Granted, I haven't been a teacher for that long, so I can't comment on trends going back decades, but I do have a feeling that too many kids these days ask adults to resolve some conflict that back when I was a kid myself, we would have resolved without any adult interference.
So even though I normally don't agree much with JJR on politics, I don't really have an issue with this particular point. (Although I also think there's an element on his behalf of projecting his own personality as an ideal for other people, but most of us are prolly fairly guilty of that. )
If it's the study that I remember some of the argumentation was very meh. It could be another one tho. I don't particularly care when this kind of analysis serves to describe why the left (or minorities) take issue with the alt-right. You know, back in my day people weren't so sensitive so they wouldn't bitch when nazis were infiltrating their communities. This is nonsense. You can show that conservatives are and have always been very sensitive about their identity, you can show that being wary of the alt-right and its endeavors is perfectly rational, it's not based on being triggered or being too coddled as a child, and finally it's worth pointing out that there is ideological similarities between the people pushing this nonsense and the people we're discussing, which colors the way they argue. This all stands regardless of the quality of the study or the politics of its author.
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On November 02 2019 23:58 Nebuchad wrote:
It's okay Danglars we just have a difference in opinions about Jimmy and I know you respect diversity of thought.
Who is and isn't far right is the least interesting question ever though. Far right parties get 25 to 45% of the vote in all the west and nobody is ever far right when you talk to them.
I just need to know you're serious when you called JimmyJRaynor basically far right, or so far right adjacent that the difference doesn't particularly matter
Then you're well underestimating the 25-45% of far right parties. Taking JJR as somebody basically far right, I'd say far right parties number in the 60%+ range. This wouldn't be the first time I thought your characterizations are profoundly silly.
On November 03 2019 01:43 Xxio wrote:I searched for an objective description of the alt-right and found this article by Oxford Research Group: https://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.uk/blog/the-alt-right-an-introduction-part-i. I'm glad for the dry, academic analysis. Does anyone have good resources for understanding what the alt-right is? They seem kind of like the antifa of the other side of the spectrum, both being militant and amorphous.
First things first: many people mean "alt-right" in purely terms of political games. Label your opposition alt-right, act outraged or shocked that normal people support them or that they're allowed a voice on TV and events, and (hopefully) reap more political power. Secondly, more people won't investigate their views or policies because they're this alt-right boogeyman unworthy of much attention.
Now this discussion can continue after removing the alt-right-as-political-weapon, because there are some real people in the world holding views that are accurately described as alt-right. From the article, thoughts and where I stand on them:- A key defining trait of the “alt-right” is identitarianism, focused specifically on supporting the interests of “White/European” populations. This is pretty foundational. If you can't see some overt kind of racial or ethnic component, they're almost always not alt-right. Maybe they instead have a far-right view on immigration or protectionist view on trade or far-right view on patriotic unity (say, criminalization of flag-burning)
- The “alt-right” also specifically rejects universalism, be it in the form of classical liberalism, religious universalism (such as Christianity), or modern globalisation and neoliberalism. I'd phrase the religious aspect as more of a lack of religious tolerance. The others are good descriptors.
- [T]he “alt-right” view the decline in Western societies as related to the downplaying of masculinity and the increased dominance of feminine forms of interaction and reasoning. Alt-right people do not celebrate the easing of gender roles. This one is not as powerful as an identification, since many groups may trace social dissatisfaction, like not finding a mate or being unsatisfied in relationships, back to confusion after a decline in gender norms.
- The “alt-right” also rejects what is usually referred to as “cultural Marxism,” which refers to what could be called “New Left” forms of progressivism that maintain a Marxist-style of argumentation but replaces the proletariat with various “marginalized” populations. This heavily overlaps with traditional conservatives and constitutional conservatives in the states, as well as many reactionary non-ideological groups spanning political labels. It's definitely part of the alt-right too.
- [Opposition to] Gramscian elements of these “New Left” movements, where an emphasis on metapolitics and gaining cultural hegemony plays a significant role. You'll hear this group whinge about the cultural dominance of the left in media institutions all the time.
- The “alt-right” often turns more to the far past, be it the “classical” virtues of ancient Rome and (pre-Socratic) Greece, or to the pagan myths of pre-Christian European society. Again, tons of overlap from other groups, but true for the alt-right in particular. Strong sense of classical virtues against more barbaric or decadent vices of others.
- [Belief that] people have a general preference for “like” populations, which is a dynamic originating via evolution.
- [Belief that] All other groups except Whites practice explicit race-consciousness in their activities, and thus it is unjust to require universalism from Whites while permitting (or even promoting) race-consciousness for all others. Very much overlapping many other groups. Here, from liberal-left and gay cultural critic Douglas Murray:
Whereas black studies celebrates black writers and black history, and gay studies brings out gay figures from history and pushes them to the fore, “whiteness studies” is “committed to disrupting racism by problematizing whiteness,” according to Syracuse University professor Barbara Applebaum, who wrote Oxford’s definition. This is to be done “as a corrective.”
Defining an entire group of people, their attitudes, pitfalls and moral associations, based solely on their racial characteristics is itself a fairly good demonstration of racism. For “whiteness” to be “problematized” white people must be shown to be a problem. And not only on some academic, abstract level but in the practical day-to-day business of judging other people. Once again, an overlapping concern with many critics from all political persuasions, right left and center. But alt-right people really hammer on wanting a positive white group identity, and ground it on other racial identities and cultural heritages.
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Norway28727 Posts
I think it's more of a 'worry about the big issues that really matter and don't alienate people that could be political supporters through labeling them x due to mistakes they use when expressing themselves that may or may not be genuine mistakes'. I thought Obama was pretty spot on when he recently said "This idea of purity, and you're never compromised, and you're always politically woke, and all that stuff, you should get over that quickly," Obama said. "The world is messy. There are ambiguities. People who do really good stuff have flaws."
I might not really understand how minorities feel when they encounter offensive language or signalling. (I think this really differs based on which individual you ask though, 'minorities' aren't uniform in how they respond to this stuff). I do however think we've made pretty massive strides in the past couple decades, positively so, with regard to 'general woke-ness'. From my parent's generation, I've heard even radical leftists use 'negro', whereas now, I experience that this is ostracizing even among fairly apolitical centrists. I agree it's not good enough, etc. But it's not the most important political fight of our generation, and I hate seeing would-be leftists who think the growing wealth inequality, climate change and capitalist exploitation are really big problems end up being turned to the right because at least the right doesn't insult them because they shared a pepe meme.
I'd like to expand but I gotta go now. 
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Oh ok we're not talking about the same thing at all. I agree with all this (I've become a pretty big fan of Vaush recently btw). From what I read I think OP would agree too.
Edit: should add that Obama was full of shit there. Purity tests are dumb when you're questioning someone's leftism because he used a slightly inconsiderate turn of phrase while he discussed the abolition of social hierarchies. It's different if you're questioning someone's leftism because you think they're a liberal, someone with a different ideology. Framing opposition to liberal ideas from the left as "a purity test" is a talking point, it's in the same range as "unity". He knows that.
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Maybe we should be asking why gamers are especially susceptible to nazi propaganda. Maybe games are emotionally, morally, and socially stunting too many young men. Maybe games are the problem.
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Northern Ireland26224 Posts
On November 03 2019 09:36 IgnE wrote:
Maybe we should be asking why gamers are especially susceptible to nazi propaganda. Maybe games are emotionally, morally, and socially stunting too many young men. Maybe games are the problem.
Haha this did get a good chuckle!
In seriousness though I’d draw a distinction between people who play games, and ‘gamers’, people who have that ‘this is my identity’ thing, often in lieu of other stuff.
The latter crowd are probably susceptible to all sorts of influences, the former really not so much.
I mean it’s not just gaming it’s basically anything, you have fans of a property, and you have the fandom, you have people who like metal music, and you have ‘metallers’ etc etc.
Anyone who identifies that keenly with things is prime ground for ‘silly SJWs are ruining your hobby/identity’
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On October 22 2019 21:10 Pistolen-Luuk wrote:
Yet I do feel there is a lack of resistance or criticism on this. Shouldn't there be some thought around using the 'feels bad man' or 'grug wojak' as a twitter portrait?
I don't think there should be.
In fact, after reading many of the responses in this thread, I will make an effort to use such memes more often.
feelsgoodman
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On November 03 2019 10:12 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2019 09:36 IgnE wrote:
Maybe we should be asking why gamers are especially susceptible to nazi propaganda. Maybe games are emotionally, morally, and socially stunting too many young men. Maybe games are the problem. Haha this did get a good chuckle! In seriousness though I’d draw a distinction between people who play games, and ‘gamers’, people who have that ‘this is my identity’ thing, often in lieu of other stuff. The latter crowd are probably susceptible to all sorts of influences, the former really not so much. I mean it’s not just gaming it’s basically anything, you have fans of a property, and you have the fandom, you have people who like metal music, and you have ‘metallers’ etc etc. Anyone who identifies that keenly with things is prime ground for ‘silly SJWs are ruining your hobby/identity’
No I disagree. There have been plenty of productive, socially well-adjusted people who are sports fans for decades and decades before computer games. Games, on the other hand, encourage a withdrawal from society (apathy towards works, towards hobbies that are not virtual, towards meeting new people, etc.) in a way that fandom does not.
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On November 03 2019 16:24 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2019 10:12 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 03 2019 09:36 IgnE wrote:
Maybe we should be asking why gamers are especially susceptible to nazi propaganda. Maybe games are emotionally, morally, and socially stunting too many young men. Maybe games are the problem. Haha this did get a good chuckle! In seriousness though I’d draw a distinction between people who play games, and ‘gamers’, people who have that ‘this is my identity’ thing, often in lieu of other stuff. The latter crowd are probably susceptible to all sorts of influences, the former really not so much. I mean it’s not just gaming it’s basically anything, you have fans of a property, and you have the fandom, you have people who like metal music, and you have ‘metallers’ etc etc. Anyone who identifies that keenly with things is prime ground for ‘silly SJWs are ruining your hobby/identity’ No I disagree. There have been plenty of productive, socially well-adjusted people who are sports fans for decades and decades before computer games. Games, on the other hand, encourage a withdrawal from society (apathy towards works, towards hobbies that are not virtual, towards meeting new people, etc.) in a way that fandom does not.
Could you please elaborate on why you think this is the case? Given that so many games are multiplayer, online, and becoming more popular and normalized, I would think that communities and friendships are likely to form around playing and enjoying games. Furthermore, I don't see why enjoying a virtual game implies that we can't enjoy real life anymore.
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On November 03 2019 09:36 IgnE wrote:
Maybe we should be asking why gamers are especially susceptible to nazi propaganda. Maybe games are emotionally, morally, and socially stunting too many young men. Maybe games are the problem.
this line of thinking is worthy of deeper exploration. I look at it more deeply later in this post. Thanks for bringing it up.
On November 03 2019 16:24 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2019 10:12 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 03 2019 09:36 IgnE wrote:
Maybe we should be asking why gamers are especially susceptible to nazi propaganda. Maybe games are emotionally, morally, and socially stunting too many young men. Maybe games are the problem. Haha this did get a good chuckle! In seriousness though I’d draw a distinction between people who play games, and ‘gamers’, people who have that ‘this is my identity’ thing, often in lieu of other stuff. The latter crowd are probably susceptible to all sorts of influences, the former really not so much. I mean it’s not just gaming it’s basically anything, you have fans of a property, and you have the fandom, you have people who like metal music, and you have ‘metallers’ etc etc. Anyone who identifies that keenly with things is prime ground for ‘silly SJWs are ruining your hobby/identity’ No I disagree. There have been plenty of productive, socially well-adjusted people who are sports fans for decades and decades before computer games. Games, on the other hand, encourage a withdrawal from society (apathy towards works, towards hobbies that are not virtual, towards meeting new people, etc.) in a way that fandom does not.
going deeper. What influences a person to make these pathological life choices? To always be alone with their PC. I'd say its a lack of self esteem. So you have someone with little life experience and low self esteem ... a prime target for any crazy ideology.
There will always be crazy political and philosophical ideologies out there. The best preventative measure against them is a strong mind and strong self esteem. An ounce of prevention... is worth a pound of cure.
My favourite way to play Brood War and SC2 was always to go to a really good internet cafe and play 2v2s. The yelling and screaming and trash talking was the best. The name I was given by the Call of Duty//Planetside guys was "David Goldensteinberg". They were making fun of my jewish background and my love of Jerry Seinfeld, Andy Kaufman, Barry Scheck, and Ayn Rand. The games were great, however, we also socialized in a real world physical environment.
Good Times.
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In reaction to difficulties to define the alt right, Angela Nagle has some useful preliminary definitions to go by in her book "Kill all normies: Online Culture wars from 4chan and tumblr to Trump and the alt-right", I am sure there are many more definitions out there but it seems pretty concise.
Page 15
the alt-right term was used in its own online circles to include only a new wave of overtly white segregationist and white nationalist movements and subcultures, typified by spokespeople like Richard Spencer, who has called for a US white ethno-state and a pan-national white Empire modeled on some approximation of the Roman Empire.
After that she goes into a list of other niche 'movements' like rightist anti-egalitarianism, the 4chan 8chan stuff on /pol/ etc and masculinist and neo masculinist anti-feminist online subcultures, that start feeding into this initial group I mentioned above until she ends up with a definition of how the alt-right came the be understood more recently. Note that both definitions are post Trump.
Page 21
What we now call the alt-right is really this collection of lots of separate tendencies that grew semi-independently but which were joined under the banner of a bursting forth of anti-PC cultural politics through the culture wars of recent years.The irreverent trolling style associated with 4chan grew in popularity in response to the expanding identity politics of more feminine spaces like Tumblr. This, itself, spilled over eventually into ‘real life’ in the ramping up of campus politics around safe spaces and trigger warnings,‘gamergate’ and many other battles.
I am having some thought about my initial position in reaction to Danglars post earlier. But yes as can has already been observed from my language in the opening post it's somewhere in between a position that wants (or already assumes) to be critical and an interest in the symbolic aspect of this.
I work in the art-world, where people are supposed to be be educated on symbols, images etc. At the moment I see the art world as a place that is marginalized / elitist depending on ones point of view. Either way, the (political) use of imagery within alt-right circles is very interesting, and very little is taken on board from this. Nagle whom I mention above even suggests seeing meme usage as a new avant-garde, supposing that 'avant-garde' is a new and radical way of using visual language. I personally think that the power of memes comes from the fact that they are both produced and consumed at the same time. If you think that from writing or drawing (notation), through printing (reproduction) it adds a new layer of immediate consumption/alteration/redistribution.
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