|
and there you go, it's why you, rationally, can't be taken seriously. you can't even envision a scenario in which you're wrong because ... it's your side and your side can't be wrong; i don't fucking know dude, it's like you're offended by someone claiming that you could be wrong.
it boggles ones mind.
the Turkey example is very apt; if a XXI century European country can do that and get away with it, why wouldn't a SA country do it?, especially when it has a whole history of doing just that.
look around you and see what happens in crisis situations: you start negotiations and invite <parties> to discussions then have the mother fuckers SIGN binding shit, and that's your fail safe. the very fact that you're not even entertaining the likely possibility of being wrong, makes your say on this matter ignorable.
|
I can totally envision a scenario in which I am wrong. I have said as much and I was far less confident months ago when I was told this was a coup, but as the invasion has not happened and Guaido has followed through on what he gas said and Maduro has killed his own people it has become clearer.
Im just frustrated with you because you have 0 information on Venezuela, you are just pulling info from your butt and treating it like fact. That a left wing dictator did the same thing as a right wing dictator to consolidate power proves my point that Maduro is just a authoratarian and not a socialist.
Calling someone a "Hitler" is simply offensive and provides no value to the conversation.
To your last point I strugle to believe that you understand my position based on your points so I stongly doubt that you get it. So why dont you tell me what it is. And who is getting who to negoiate what? Then once I have some idea what this head canon you are tossing out is I can respond.
|
at a minimum, if what you said in this whole topic is 0 information then yes, i have 0 information on Venezuela.
no rational human being here, on this issue, can just sit and wait(more so, demand of/expect others to do the same) for Guaido to fuck up first. that's the most stupid shit ever, you need to force him not to fuck up, you need insurances that he won't fuck up then you agree with him taking charge.
this is not Trump not building a fucking wall('cause people believed him too so they put him in charge...), we're talking lives here, your fuck up can cost human lives, hell knows how many.
you, saying that your confidence decreased means nothing. your line of argumentation is the same: everyone should believe (in)Guaido because Maduro is bad ...
also, you do realize no one is pro-Maduro, right?(i mean, GH isn't for sure).
Edit: in E-EU and Caucasus region (Ukraine, Moldova, Azebaidjan, Armenia) but others too, we had Ukraine, Russia, France, and Germany + OSCE, or the 5+2 talks involving Russia, Ukraine, the OSCE, Moldova, Transdnestr, the U.S. and the EU for Moldova(and so on in those other conflicts) negotiating on things. sure some talks failed/were stalled, but that's how you commit to change: you look for parties involved in the conflict and get them to agree on shit else your nightmare will never end.
|
I dont support Guaido I support change the same way you apparently and gh dont support Maduro but do support the status quo.
The status quo is no running water, spottt electricity and we are talking about in the biggest cities. The status quo is no freedom, if you joke about Maduro on twitter you get arrested and tortured, if GH was living there and 1/8 as negative to that gov as he is to ours he would be in jail or worse. And their jails barely have enough space, food, clean water so on. If you dont support the government you dont get food. This is enforced by colictivos that will beat and even murder you they are empowered by Maduro and also run the local drug trade. If the people try to get aid they will be shot and killed. If the military personel dares to defy orders to beat or kill their own people the Cuban secret police will torture you and kill your family. And this is not getting into all the Gold stealing and corruption in the military encouranged by Maduro to ensure loyalty.
I will conceed Guaido could somehow be worse while he is interm president and sets up fair and free elections it is possible. But you calling him Hitler with zero evidence is not only unfair it is ignorant. Im also not exactly sure how it gets worse.
I also am not a fan of the US foriegn policy or government. But to favor the Russian and chinese ones you better not be Ukrainian, Chechen or Tibetan and also you better not be gay, or Muslim.
Sorry for being rude but when you say ignorat things aggresively and in a condescending fashion with little to no grip on what is going on it is hard to take.
|
Sorry for being rude but when you say ignorat things aggresively and in a condescending fashion with little to no grip on what is going on it is hard to take
The irony of this is not lost on us, I can assure you.
The way you talk about the situation betrays an understanding that is uniquely unobservant of history and context imo (and it would seem xmz's, and probably others).
|
Your condescension palpable. But that aside, if you can explain why Guaido would be worse than Maduro with anything other than "the Americans like him therefore he must be worse". I'm all ears (or eyes since this is a message board).
|
On April 27 2019 04:30 JimmiC wrote:
Your condescension palpable. But that aside, if you can explain why Guaido would be worse than Maduro with anything other than "the Americans like him therefore he must be worse". I'm all ears (or eyes since this is a message board).
Let's start with your assumption that the US is installing (helping if you prefer) a leader that would prioritize poor people (or free elections) over US oligarchs. Where do you get that imaginary scenario from?
|
Need to go back further. First why would Russian and Chinese oligarchs who currently control the wealth of the nation along with drug lord generals care about the poor people.
And why is the US "installing" a leader and not all the countries supporting a man with a constitutional claim on interm leadership.
Where does your imaginary scenario come from?
|
On April 27 2019 04:45 JimmiC wrote:
Need to go back further. First why would Russian and Chinese oligarchs who currently control the wealth of the nation along with drug lord generals care about the poor people.
And why is the US "installing" a leader and not all the countries supporting a man with a constitutional claim on interm leadership.
Where does your imaginary scenario come from?
I'm okay presuming they don't for the sake of argument (which is part of why this isn't getting far with you).
Your argument, however, is assuming/dependent on faith and absent historical context that the US is acting in the interest of the marginalized people rather than regaining access to the wealth it was extracting prior to Chavez (when their opposition to Venezuelan leadership started, but not the rampant exploitation of marginalized people).
US supported the complete abandonment of democracy when they helped try and assassinate Chavez, you have to ignore US involvement in the same country in living memory in order to maintain your argument.
Guaido taking power (basically guaranteed not to happen without massive violence from his supporters) can have negative consequences and if it's worse than Maduro (all signs point to this being the case), the people responsible/that supported it don't get to just "whoopsie" it away.
|
No it is not, I am assuming that they are interested in their own interests of keeping Chinese and Russian control out of the Western Hemisphere. Which will in turn help the people. I have not said that the US is supporting Guaido for the good of the Venezuelan people. I have often said the opposite.
But again you have shown no indication that your argument is based on anything other than "the US is the worst country in the world and therefore anything they support must be bad"
And because of this you are ignoring all the facts that Maduro is a terrible person and leader who is killing his own people to maintain his power and wealth.
|
You're taking the entire history of the US from an intellectual perspective and attempting to reduce it to "the US is the worst country in the world and therefore anything they support must be bad" and that's not how arguments work.
The US has a documented history and it matters, you don't get to just wave it away with "anything is possible, Maduro is actually the worst".
Just because people said removing Saddam from power was a terrible idea doesn't mean they were ignoring the bad things Saddam had done and this is a lesson most USians have learned.
This was a bad warmongering argument then and it is now.
|
That was a different situation that involved an army coming in and trying to install a leader and a completely new system of government.
This involves supporting a Venezuelan trying to take back his country and restore their constitution.
And so far yes, in spite of all your insults to me and thinking you are so smart and have it all figured out. Your entire argument boils down to "US is the worst, and therefore everyone they support must be the worst". I'm confident in this because you just keep dodging the question and throwing examples from the past and of completely different situations.
|
On April 27 2019 05:32 JimmiC wrote:
That was a different situation that involved an army coming in and trying to install a leader and a completely new system of government.
This involves supporting a Venezuelan trying to take back his country and restore their constitution.
And so far yes, in spite of all your insults to me and thinking you are so smart and have it all figured out. Your entire argument boils down to "US is the worst, and therefore everyone they support must be the worst". I'm confident in this because you just keep dodging the question and throwing examples from the past and of completely different situations.
This is exactly what I mean.
This involves supporting a Venezuelan trying to take back his country and restore their constitution.
I don't what to do with this. You seem to think that if he's not actually doing that and is instead, like is basically always the case according to history, a vassal for a foreign nation, that those who advocated his placement have no responsibility for the outcome (a return to further exploitation of marginalized people and the other worse conditions the US supports around the world for profit for example).
|
That is what is happening. There is no evidence otherwise. This is why most of the countries support him. Many gave Maduro an opportunity to earn their support by holding legitimate elections.
I get that you have a great theory, that Guiado is American agent who is going to come in and steal all the countries resources to make America rich. And if he does get power it will likely be better for America. And it will most definitely be worse for Russia and China. And as I have said your theory could be true.
But so far the facts indicate that he is doing everything the legal way and not the coup way. He is trying to win the people over with freedom and Aid instead of bombs. Even if this is some American plot is already far less evil than your examples and already will be better than Maduro.
As I said before feel free to post any evidence that your theory is right. And I'm talking facts not, well this happened before. I mean it is hard for me to talk reasonably to you when you fail to do so to me and what you promised to happen has not, and what I have said is happening, is because I'm simply pointing out what is happening. You are the one throwing in all the what that means crap.
Maduro has ordered his military to shoot civilians including the poorest of the poor the indigenous people. We know this because it happened, his own news station reported on it.
We know that Maduro is incredibly corrupt and has encouraged his generals to be to keep their loyalty. Hell you posted an article about it.
We know that Madruo without some deal will end up in the Hauge court for Human rights violations if no deal is made along with all of his hand picked generals, so giving up power is not something that is likely.
We know people are starving, infant mortality is rising rapidly, people are fleeing to refugee camps in unheard of numbers.
We know that Maduro is living like a king with incredible wealth, fancy trips great food and so on.
We know that the corruption and mismanagement has lead to power outages that last for days including at hospitals.
We know the cities are not getting running water.
We know that Maduro is willing to jail and torture people who disagree with him.
We know he withholds food from those who don't support him and has empowered local gangs to enforce these rules.
We know that all this bad stuff was happening before the US sanctions and that those sanctions are accelerating the issues and making it harder for Maduro to live his preferred lifestyle.
All these and many more are simply facts, they are not my opinion. Quite frankly as smart as you think you are I'm going to keep following the facts and see where it takes me, instead of trusting your assumptions. I'm glad we have at least gotten to a point where you are willing to admit that Maduro is the reason Venezuela is in the situation it is and that he is not a socialist but rather just another run of the mill authoritarian dictator.
Here is a hoop for you to jump through since I have jumped through 50 of yours.
Lets just say for arguments sake Guaido is a great man who really cares about the people and wants to free his people from a evil piece of shit dictator. As a self proclaimed revolutionary how do you suggest he do it? And what is he doing wrong that has led you to believe that he WILL be worse than the proven piece of shit dictator?
|
On April 27 2019 06:00 JimmiC wrote:
That is what is happening. There is no evidence otherwise. This is why most of the countries support him. Many gave Maduro an opportunity to earn their support by holding legitimate elections.
Lets just say for arguments sake Guaido is a great man who really cares about the people and wants to free his people from a evil piece of shit dictator. As a self proclaimed revolutionary how do you suggest he do it?
Without the US or not at all.
|
Which proves my entire point. So thank you.
|
On April 27 2019 06:35 JimmiC wrote:
Which proves my entire point. So thank you.
Which is what? I can assure you this is the position of any socialist revolutionary.
|
That your whole reasoning is that the US supports him. Because you just said he has done everything right other than turning down their support.
I think it is actually very prudent when the leader of your country is known for locking up, torturing and so on political opposition to get support from as many international people as possible to protect yourself from him.
|
On April 27 2019 06:50 JimmiC wrote:
That your whole reasoning is that the US supports him. Because you just said he has done everything right other than turning down their support.
I think it is actually very prudent when the leader of your country is known for locking up, torturing and so on political opposition to get support from as many international people as possible to protect yourself from him.
I'm sorry if that's your understanding of my argument but it's not correct.
That is the US throughout the 60-70's as exposed through stolen records from federal authorities, right through to today and black sites in Chicago and the border if you count immigrants as humans worthy of such concern. This is what I mean by your position lacking historical and even contemporary context.
But your argument only considers it prudent in Maduro's case, not Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Libya, Columbia, Brazil, or anywhere else because your argument is tunneled without proper consideration for the context of the situation beyond "maduro is bad" imo and as xmz tried to highlight.
|
Oh my apologies I guess we should bring up Russian behavior from the 60,70's to really get a entire picture....
Or look at what is happening, compare it to what has happened historically and notice BOTH the similarities and the DIFFERENCES.
It would be really nice if you stopped thinking all your assumptions are facts. You come off like such a know it all especially when some of you facts end up not happening. I know others won't say it to you because they don't want to deal your condescending non stop willing to die on every hill attitude. But it is very tiresome.
For like the 100th time post some evidence, or take off the tin foil hat and lets get back to discussing South American politics instead of woke GH who has taken the "red pill" and can see through all the "propaganda". It's BS you are just really mad at the US and blame them for everything and think they must be the worst.
Despite the FACT that you live better than 98% of the Venezuelans.
Have you spoken to a single Venezuelan like I suggested? Of course not what could they tell you. You are the guy at the conference explaining to Venezuelans about American imperialism. Hell you don't even seem to realize that the Russians and Chinese are doing it too, only better than the Americans. It is not 1960 or 1970 anymore, America is barely the big dog.
And BTW in the real world, right now the question is Maduro or Guaido. And have very little doubt that Guaido would be better because Maduro has proven he is awful.
In actual news about things actually going on. The US continues to freeze rich Venezuelan "socialists" assets to put more pressure on Maduro. One has to wonder how these high ranking "socialists" keep having all this wealth in the US.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/04/slaps-sanctions-venezuela-foreign-minister-judge-190426160852361.html
|
|
|
|
|
|
WCS
