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On April 28 2019 04:44 JimmiC wrote:
Let me say what I think you think you tell me if I'm right or wrong and how. Use plain English so I can understand you and don't go saying something you don't mean because you're teach me something and later you will explain that. OK?
I think you are saying that because these Billionares support the US and the US supports Guaido that Guaido is plant from them to over throw Maduro a take back the oil from the Russia Billionaires who currently control it (or are you back to thinking its the "people despite all the evidence you yourself have posted".
Since to you all Billionaires are psychopath's but US ones are the worse. It would be even worse if someone they like gets into power.
It is still a coup despite the military or suddenness required generally because the US is one of the over 60 countries supporting Guaido.
Other than getting US support when he went to get international support for new elections Guaido has done everything you would like. But the mere involvement of the US guarantees beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is a US lead Coup that will make it worse for the people.
You don't think Maduro is a socialist anymore, but for some reason the US is still out to get him. And you agree that he has not only participated in mass corruption and over looked it, but encouraged his Generals to do so. You also agree he has made many human rights violations including but not limited too Jailing and torturing political opposition, jailing and torturing protesters, jailing and torturing reporters, Murdering indigenous people for attempting to get foreign aid, foreign aid that was originally called guns, tanks and assassins but was later accepted.
In spite of that because Guaido has the US support along with all the other you are completely convinced, and I am a naive idiot for not, that Guaido leadership until a election can be held will be somehow worse, but you are unsure on the details of how it will be.
Please correct what ever I have not understood because this is what I believe to be your position.
That's all wrong and/or reductive and a careful reading of just the last few pages demonstrates that and why I don't see much value in engaging with you to try to explain why each of those points is wrong (again). I've demonstrated several times now that even when confronted with your inability to support your repeated assertions about my positions you insist they are something they demonstrably aren't.
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So explain to me exactly what is wrong like I asked and then we can communicate more clearly because so far you appear all over the map.
Stop trying to "demonstrate" how smart you are and explain how I am wrong. And what your position is. If you have one this should not be hard. I've clearly stated mine numerous times. You avoid it at all costs citing your superior intellect.
My theory if you cannot is that I was in fact correct but when you read it all laid you don't even agree with it.
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On April 28 2019 05:37 JimmiC wrote:
So explain to me exactly what is wrong like I asked and then we can communicate more clearly because so far you appear all over the map.
Stop trying to "demonstrate" how smart you are and explain how I am wrong. And what your position is. If you have one this should not be hard. I've clearly stated mine numerous times. You avoid it at all costs citing your superior intellect.
My theory if you cannot is that I was in fact correct but when you read it all laid you don't even agree with it.
I've done this several times now and this should be last.
Since to you all Billionaires are psychopath's but US ones are the worse.
quote me saying it or stop continuously demanding I explain why you're wrong and distorting, if not outright fabricating my positions.
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On April 28 2019 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:I've done this several times now and this should be last. quote me saying it or stop continuously demanding I explain why you're wrong and distorting, if not outright fabricating my positions.
My apologies I was summarizing your quotes from the US pol thread. I should trade the word all for most.
Or I could have said All Billionaires are evil but the US ones are the worst. Since I do believe you think that.
I'm not sure why I'm correcting what I think you think instead of you just writing out what you think, that would be so much simpler. You make conversations so difficult between this and the disingenuous questions. Talk just straight forward with what you mean and you will stop getting in so many disagreements that involve you later saying that is not what you meant.
Everyone who doesn't understand you is not an idiot, and even if they are you're inability to get your point across is your failing not theirs.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 26 2019 03:01 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 02:56 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
If they aren't exclusively psychopaths, why mention them in the first place? Why even mention "psychopath" in every sentence that you try to explain something in the previous post? Because we have a society that is shaped to favor psychopaths and they have a greatly disproportionate representation at the top of capitalism? Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 02:59 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2019 02:56 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
If we were to take that the wealthy aren't exclusively psychopaths, why mention them in the first place? Why even mention "psychopath" in every sentence that you try to explain something in the previous post?
If the wealthy are completely normal people now, so what? Your explanations still make no sense. If you think the rich don't have feelings you care less about what happens to them when the glorious revolution happens. Actually I'm the type of revolutionary that thinks they should be saved, but they and their supporters sure do try to make that difficult.
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Maybe it is overwhelming all in one post and we should break it down point at a time.
Do you think that because these Billionaires support the US and the US supports Guaido that Guaido is plant from them to over throw Maduro a take back the oil from the Russia Billionaires who currently control it (or are you back to thinking its the "people despite all the evidence you yourself have posted".
If yes simply say yes. If no, please explain what part I have wrong.
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On April 28 2019 05:48 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2019 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:I've done this several times now and this should be last. Since to you all Billionaires are psychopath's but US ones are the worse.
quote me saying it or stop continuously demanding I explain why you're wrong and distorting, if not outright fabricating my positions. My apologies I was summarizing your quotes from the US pol thread. I should trade the word all for most. Or I could have said All Billionaires are evil but the US ones are the worst. Since I do believe you think that. I'm not sure why I'm correcting what I think you think instead of you just writing out what you think, that would be so much simpler. You make conversations so difficult between this and the disingenuous questions. Talk just straight forward with what you mean and you will stop getting in so many disagreements that involve you later saying that is not what you meant. Everyone who doesn't understand you is not an idiot, and even if they are you're inability to get your point across is your failing not theirs. + Show Spoiler +On April 26 2019 03:01 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 02:56 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
If they aren't exclusively psychopaths, why mention them in the first place? Why even mention "psychopath" in every sentence that you try to explain something in the previous post? Because we have a society that is shaped to favor psychopaths and they have a greatly disproportionate representation at the top of capitalism? Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 02:59 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2019 02:56 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
If we were to take that the wealthy aren't exclusively psychopaths, why mention them in the first place? Why even mention "psychopath" in every sentence that you try to explain something in the previous post?
If the wealthy are completely normal people now, so what? Your explanations still make no sense. If you think the rich don't have feelings you care less about what happens to them when the glorious revolution happens. Actually I'm the type of revolutionary that thinks they should be saved, but they and their supporters sure do try to make that difficult.
I'm saying this with all deference, bro, your inability to distinguish nuance like the difference between what you've quoted here
society that is shaped to favor psychopaths and they have a greatly disproportionate representation at the top of capitalism
and what you've twice mischaracterized as first:
Since to you all Billionaires are psychopath's but US ones are the worse.
and then
I should trade the word all for most.
Or I could have said All Billionaires are evil but the US ones are the worst. Since I do believe you think that.
is what makes engaging with you so frustrating, particularly when you think I'm trying to belittle you while trying incredibly hard to engage as politely as possible despite your repeated personal swipes.
It's also why I won't continue this exercise unless or until we can make some demonstrable progress on this front.
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Add the nuance my friend, you have a keyboard.
As to your last sentence. You, under an hour ago, asked me a disingenuous question as some sort of set up for the big reveal that they support the US.
Now you are failing to answer simple questions, or answer them dismissively with no info given. This tells me you either don't know/understand your own position or you are again being disingenuous.
So please your condescension is hard enough to take don't make me put up with blatant dishonesty. Answer the simple questions, as I have to all of yours, stop dodging by "this wrong, I won't say how, or what is right" Why? Because you don't know?
Answer the questions or just go away. But please, please stop it is for any reason other then you can't or don't want to answer them.
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On April 28 2019 06:21 JimmiC wrote:
Add the nuance my friend, you have a keyboard.
It's literally right there. Again I mean this respectfully and to try to get to a real and amiable resolution here, you are failing to comprehend the literal meaning of the words I typed and blaming me for that failure.
society that is shaped to favor psychopaths and they have a greatly disproportionate representation at the top of capitalism
that has a mathematical/literal meaning, and you, despite repeated attempts there and elsewhere are refusing to accept that.
It means that since they make up a small percentage of the population overall that even something like 1 in 10 would be "greatly disproportionate representation" so that the assertions that I'm claiming "all" or "most" billionaires are psychopaths using that quote as support betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the literal/mathematical meaning of the expression.
I don't say this to belittle you, but because I genuinely think you don't know/believe that's what I'm trying to express to you.
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You think that you can't attempt to explain the nuance? It might take a few words but it very doable.
So you don't think that most Billionaires are psychopaths?
Because you believe that this report is true and backs up your belief it makes your belief more acceptable not less. I'm not sure why you are dodging this question. Or of all that I wrote was it what you thought was the easiest to counter? I'm shocked you are now saying you don't think most billionaires are psycopaths.
Now is when you hit me with, I'm don't believe that most billionairs are psycopaths or evil. It just happens that these ones are and the Russian ones are not as bad because they do not agree with the US. You just don't get the Nuance.
Write out your beliefs, it is easy I did it last page.
If not ask yourself why won't you. Do you have no conviction? Do you not trust them? What is going on?
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This is what I'm talking about man...
I'm shocked you are now saying you don't think most billionaires are psycopaths.
What are you even talking about at this point? I don't demand that you agree with me, or engage with my arguments but please stop dreadfully misinterpreting them and then doing stuff like this when I point it out.
Now is when you hit me with, I'm don't believe that most billionairs are psycopaths or evil. It just happens that these ones are and the Russian ones are not as bad because they do not agree with the US. You just don't get the Nuance.
Just stop please.
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Let me ask you something real straight forward and real simple.
How does 3 Venezuelan billionaires supporting Guaido make him bad? If it is not because they are bad than who cares? If they didn't support him would it make him good? If not than why does it matter?
You are basically describing confirmation bias.
Which is maybe why you are scared to answer all the other simple questions.
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On April 28 2019 06:36 GreenHorizons wrote:This is what I'm talking about man... Show nested quote +I'm shocked you are now saying you don't think most billionaires are psycopaths. What are you even talking about at this point?
I'm not going anywhere, I'm drilling down as far as possible to try to find a question so simple and mundane that you might actually stop playing weird games and answer it straight forwardly.
And now I'm stuck because how much simple can I get, its a bloody yes or no question.
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On April 28 2019 06:39 JimmiC wrote:
Let me ask you something real straight forward and real simple.
How does 3 Venezuelan billionaires supporting Guaido make him bad? If it is not because they are bad than who cares? If they didn't support him would it make him good? If not than why does it matter?
You are basically describing confirmation bias.
Which is maybe why you are scared to answer all the other simple questions.
Let me try this one more time straight forward and simple.
How does 3 Venezuelan billionaires supporting Guaido make him bad?
I didn't say that did I?
If not PLEASE STOP doing this.
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In other news, more unrest in Honduras and police violence cracking down against teachers and others fighting against increased privatization.
Police fired tear gas Friday to disperse thousands of demonstrators who gathered in the Honduras capital to protest against plans to privatise health and education services.
Around 10,000 people in Tegucigalpa lit torches and chanted "JOH out", referring to President Juan Orlando Hernandez, before police moved in, according to witnesses.
The protest was called by teacher unions and the Honduran Medical Association against two decrees which critics say will lead to mass layoffs.
Union leader Luis Sosa told AFP protests were held across the country, and videos were circulating on social media of demonstrations in San Pedro Sula, La Ceiba, Choluteca and El Paraiso.
There have been several mass protests by teachers since Hernandez came to power in 2014.
gulfnews.com
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On April 28 2019 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2019 05:37 JimmiC wrote:
So explain to me exactly what is wrong like I asked and then we can communicate more clearly because so far you appear all over the map.
Stop trying to "demonstrate" how smart you are and explain how I am wrong. And what your position is. If you have one this should not be hard. I've clearly stated mine numerous times. You avoid it at all costs citing your superior intellect.
My theory if you cannot is that I was in fact correct but when you read it all laid you don't even agree with it. I've done this several times now and this should be last. quote me saying it or stop continuously demanding I explain why you're wrong and distorting, if not outright fabricating my positions.
Of course you havn't said that, you have been working hard to not say anything!
So you posted that 3 billionaires support Guaido for what purpose then? To up your post count?
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On April 28 2019 06:58 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2019 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 28 2019 05:37 JimmiC wrote:
So explain to me exactly what is wrong like I asked and then we can communicate more clearly because so far you appear all over the map.
Stop trying to "demonstrate" how smart you are and explain how I am wrong. And what your position is. If you have one this should not be hard. I've clearly stated mine numerous times. You avoid it at all costs citing your superior intellect.
My theory if you cannot is that I was in fact correct but when you read it all laid you don't even agree with it. I've done this several times now and this should be last. Since to you all Billionaires are psychopath's but US ones are the worse.
quote me saying it or stop continuously demanding I explain why you're wrong and distorting, if not outright fabricating my positions. Of course you havn't said that, you have been working hard to not say anything! So you posted that 3 billionaires support Guaido for what purpose then? To up your post count?
No. To demonstrate an example of how your understanding of where the wealth of Venezuela goes is based largely on rumor and your unclear estimations from browsing instagram and the fact that it's gone. You've failed to account for the documented billionaires which stand to gain financially from the political ambitions of privatization as we see opposed by marginalized people throughout South America and supported by the US oligarchs that stand to gain and documented war criminals willing to do anything to get it.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2019 05:09 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2019 04:53 JimmiC wrote:
Your whataboutism about Trump is a great tatic to use against someone who is arguing that Trump is some how good. I am not.
Perhaps you could take the time to go through the Instagram accounts as I suggested. It is not just one photo, and as I pointed out when I posted the article I did it for the photo's there is a lot more info about the wealth. Like how the rumor about Chavez daughter started because the PALACE she was living in cost six figures a day to operate.
And I didn't spread the rumor I have no idea how much shes worth. Only that she is rich as fuck or uses her nations oil revenue like a personal bank account because you don't live like that on a widow of a Presidents pension. It's not whataboutism? I was merely pointing out that $40k isn't indicative of living like billionaires or extreme from a US perspective. No thank you on going through instagram photos. Presumably the best evidence of their "extravagant" lifestyles was pulled out for the article or you can provide it. So yes, it's a rumor you are actively spreading about some conspiracy theory involving secret European banks and so forth. In fact you have no idea if she's a billionaire, millionaire, or completely dependent on the kindness of affluent fans of her father. Based on that rumor, her stay at the presidential palace (without objection from most Venezuelans), and your thorough viewing of their instagrams concluded that they are obviously "rich as fuck" or "uses her nations oil revenue like a personal bank account"? Presumably this is also based on missing revenue, but that's your supporting evidence it's gone to Maduro, Chavez's daughter, and his family to the tune of billions? Again, your entitled to that opinion, but it looks to me that they are probably living above the means of their nation's available resources for their leaders and relatives, but modest compared to the world and many nations of comparable wealth (maybe slightly on the lavish side, I haven't done a comprehensive look) and certainly, certainly, not like billionaires. With that in mind, I'm of the opinion the "Chavez daughter is a billionaire" is currently nothing more than a rumor/conspiracy theory being promoted by major publications and repeated here. The rest of your "look at all the rich socialist instagram posts" fits a similarly weakly supported (if at all) argument about the clearly lavish life of the Chavez or Maduro family. EDIT: Just so we're clear, you are fully aware there are capitalist billionaires in Venezuela that oppose Maduro and support the US intervention? I don't ask to be rude, but your argument seems predicated on the notion that there aren't people living much more lavish lives than Maduro and or Chavez's daughter in Venezuela?
tl.net
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Yeah so do Russian Billionaires from Maduro keeping the Status quo. Billionaires win either way.
WE AGREE
Now what does that matter in keeping status Quo compared to changing it?
And come on, do you want me to go to posts where you say Venezuelans economy is fine and this is right win propaganda? Or where you call it democracy? Come on man.
I
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On April 28 2019 07:48 JimmiC wrote:
Yeah so do Russian Billionaires from Maduro keeping the Status quo. Billionaires win either way.
Now what does that matter in keeping status Quo compared to changing it?
It's not a game of sims, "changing it" isn't just loading up a new leader. You've asserted before you think things can't get worse but that's demonstrably false based on history (as well as contemporaneously) globally and regionally, including the last regime change/war crimes Elliot Abrams took part in, in the region.
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So it all comes back to the US is the worst and anything that benefits them must be terrible.
I'm glad we agree that either way different rich people benefit.
So to conclude.
I believe that democracy will improve the lives of the people more than Maduro will. That Guaido has never killed people, is trying to bring in aid, publicly wants elections instead of publicly saying he wont have them, Maduro(as explained by the article you posted and quoted from) actively using corruption to get loyalty from his generals so on.
And you believe it will get worse because the US along with most of the democracies supported Guaido.
Maybe we will get to see, either way I hope it gets better the status Quo is pretty fucking terrible.
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On April 28 2019 08:02 JimmiC wrote:
So it all comes back to the US is the worst and anything that benefits them must be terrible.
Your insistence on distorting or fabricating from whole cloth strawmen while refusing to incorporate undue clarification makes engaging with you fruitless (at minimum on this topic). As much as I want to address you directly and have taken several attempts at it. I have to stop trying. I don't think you can engage me in a good-faith discussion based off the multiple examples I've shown of your distortions and fabrications.
Do us all the favor of showing me the same respect please.
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WCS
