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On April 14 2019 03:32 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2019 03:24 JimmiC wrote:
Does Russia working with Facists Like in Syria and Maduro make you think that maybe it is more about claiming power than anything?
I think the US has vested interest in getting the Russian influence out of Venezuela and that is why they support Maduro's opposition.
Once you come to the conclusion that is clear based on the mountains of evidence that Maduro is not a socialist everything I'm saying will make a lot more sense. Here is a quick run down. First he nationalized only about 30% of the companies all run by people who didn't support him. He used that money to fund him and his cronies lifestyle not better the county or the people. He didn't nationalize any of the companies that did support him and allowed those people to continue to get rich. Proof of this is everywhere. The people are poor Maduro and his cronies are living like rock stars.
I honestly don't understand how you can look into this with any sort of sensibility and not think that the guy who employees 1000's of secret police, arrests and tortures people over disagreeing with him on twitter, lives ultra rich while his people starve, steal so much he didn't maintain what was making him the money or even the basic things that allow his people to have power and water, refusing aid. Buddying up with Iran, Russia, China, so on. I mean it is pretty obvious you just need to get past this "maduro is a socialist being held down by the evil US and that is what is stopping him from setting up a socialist paradise."
The reality is you are drinking obvious propaganda Kool-aid and what has stopped Maduro from setting up a socialist country is Maduro, he is not interested in that he is interested in enriching himself. I'm concerned about what operating understanding you're using for socialist and that it's causing you to keep basing so much of your argument on "once you come to the conclusion...Maduro is not a socialist". But that's really more than I can handle discussing in this manner. You seem to still, despite my best efforts, be under the unseverable belief that my position is predicated or dependent on Maduro being a socialist, or simply that the US has a long and documented history of horrific atrocities that Maduro couldn't match on his worst day. I don't know what more at this point I can do to disabuse you of these fallacious interpretations of my positions and can just hope that people take into consideration the strength of our arguments based on their presentation and supporting information.
No it is that you think this is US vs Maduro. I can tell this because you talk about the US in all posts as if they are the only player. It's odd.
It is Guaido vs Maduro and both sides have big bad assholes on their side. But Maduro is a proven plague on this country where as Gauaido is a unknown and could perhaps be good. I'd rather take a chance on the new guy than let the monster continue to abuse a nation.
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On April 14 2019 03:37 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2019 03:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 14 2019 03:24 JimmiC wrote:
Does Russia working with Facists Like in Syria and Maduro make you think that maybe it is more about claiming power than anything?
I think the US has vested interest in getting the Russian influence out of Venezuela and that is why they support Maduro's opposition.
Once you come to the conclusion that is clear based on the mountains of evidence that Maduro is not a socialist everything I'm saying will make a lot more sense. Here is a quick run down. First he nationalized only about 30% of the companies all run by people who didn't support him. He used that money to fund him and his cronies lifestyle not better the county or the people. He didn't nationalize any of the companies that did support him and allowed those people to continue to get rich. Proof of this is everywhere. The people are poor Maduro and his cronies are living like rock stars.
I honestly don't understand how you can look into this with any sort of sensibility and not think that the guy who employees 1000's of secret police, arrests and tortures people over disagreeing with him on twitter, lives ultra rich while his people starve, steal so much he didn't maintain what was making him the money or even the basic things that allow his people to have power and water, refusing aid. Buddying up with Iran, Russia, China, so on. I mean it is pretty obvious you just need to get past this "maduro is a socialist being held down by the evil US and that is what is stopping him from setting up a socialist paradise."
The reality is you are drinking obvious propaganda Kool-aid and what has stopped Maduro from setting up a socialist country is Maduro, he is not interested in that he is interested in enriching himself. I'm concerned about what operating understanding you're using for socialist and that it's causing you to keep basing so much of your argument on "once you come to the conclusion...Maduro is not a socialist". But that's really more than I can handle discussing in this manner. You seem to still, despite my best efforts, be under the unseverable belief that my position is predicated or dependent on Maduro being a socialist, or simply that the US has a long and documented history of horrific atrocities that Maduro couldn't match on his worst day. I don't know what more at this point I can do to disabuse you of these fallacious interpretations of my positions and can just hope that people take into consideration the strength of our arguments based on their presentation and supporting information. No it is that you think this is US vs Maduro. I can tell this because you talk about the US in all posts as if they are the only player. It's odd. It is Guaido vs Maduro and both sides have big bad assholes on their side. But Maduro is a proven plague on this country where as Gauaido is a unknown and could perhaps be good. I'd rather take a chance on the new guy than let the monster continue to abuse a nation.
It is, as a matter of fact, US vs Maduro.
It is also, Guaido vs Maduro.
Maduro is "bad", but one thing Venezuelans dislike more than Maduro, is the US removing and replacing him. Guaido was a political unknown before the US "recognized him as president". Few people (WSJ reported as few as 4) had any idea he was going to swear himself in before he did it. People on stage were shocked and some members of the opposition literally distanced themselves from him as he did it.
Your entire argument has boiled down to "sure the US should continue to starve out the Venezuelan people until or unless they are able to put a new guy in charge because a stranger (to you) is better than Maduro, for humanitarian reasons".
As I've said, you're free to have that position, but I'm confident that mine is better supported by the available information and more coherent in it's totality.
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While if you make it US vs anyone you have to make it vs Russia,Cuba, China, Syria.
And unlike the US which so far has only offered politicized aid, The Cubans have offered secret police in the thousands and the Russians actual military support in hardware and military personal. So I will take the US system of Aid over that 10 out of 10 times.
But I'd rather go back to reality of Guaido vs Maduro and that more or less the whole free world is behind Guaido and that the authoritarian countries are supporting Maduro. This also makes it clear who to support.
And no my position is that the US and the rest of the free world should continue to starve out Maduro and not let him and his family continue to live like rock stars while the people starve. While providing as much aid as they can. And hopefully Maduro shows some humanity and allows his people food and medicine.
And Guaido is not American, he is Venezuelan and is an elected official and is calling for free and fair elections not a Coup like you claimed this was. To keep your narrative you have changed your position and I will be interested to see how it changes as they continue to not do what you suggested they would.
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On April 14 2019 03:52 JimmiC wrote:
While if you make it US vs anyone you have to make it vs Russia,Cuba, China, Syria.
And unlike the US which so far has only offered politicized aid, The Cubans have offered secret police in the thousands and the Russians actual military support in hardware and military personal. So I will take the US system of Aid over that 10 out of 10 times.
But I'd rather go back to reality of Guaido vs Maduro and that more or less the whole free world is behind Guaido and that the authoritarian countries are supporting Maduro. This also makes it clear who to support.
And no my position is that the US and the rest of the free world should continue to starve out Maduro and not let him and his family continue to live like rock stars while the people starve. While providing as much aid as they can. And hopefully Maduro shows some humanity and allows his people food and medicine.
That's a fair position (to the degree it's accurate), but it's up against the US's extensive presence in South America, and the open fascist it embraces next door and so on.
Guaido vs Maduro is no more "reality" than the larger geopolitical actors are? I also take exception to your "more or less the whole free world is behind Guaido" and whether those nations are reliable arbiters.
I'd say there are reports of various assistance from Russia and Cuba but the exact nature is speculative at best. But that's also their right as a sovereign nation.
Your position doesn't match the reality of the strategy being pursued or was being performed in the stunt you support that we discussed. So, in fact your position, doesn't match your position.
EDIT: You constantly make the "Maduro and family lives like a rockstar" argument in one variation or another, how wealthy do you think he is/how much money do you think he's spending or are you just guesstimating "a lot"?
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It is very telling that you need to make this about US because Maduro vs Guaido is clear.
And they are not speculative it is fact that there was a Russian plane that landed filled with Russian military personal. There is multiple nuclear capable Russian bombers. This is not speculations.
And it is fact that there are 10k plus Cubans in Venezuela what we do know for a fact is Maduro's personal Body gaurds are Cuban. And that the 10k plus are not aid workers or whatever but many many are in the government run police and military.
Because you don't like it and it doesn't fit your narrative of big bad US being the root of all evil doesn't mean you can ignore it.
Russia is at best as bad an international actor but actually far likely much much worse. Just look at there recent acts invaded Crimea and support Assad.
edit: I think he is a billionaire based on how he is living his life and how he and his family are posting on Instragram. Not to mention all the articles about it, but you will believe that is western propaganda so I will stick with the photo's that him and his family are posting themselves and bragging about their wealth in. Honestly GH wake up.
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On April 14 2019 04:08 JimmiC wrote:
It is very telling that you need to make this about US because Maduro vs Guaido is clear.
And they are not speculative it is fact that there was a Russian plane that landed filled with Russian military personal. There is multiple nuclear capable Russian bombers. This is not speculations.
And it is fact that there are 10k plus Cubans in Venezuela what we do know for a fact is Maduro's personal Body gaurds are Cuban. And that the 10k plus are not aid workers or whatever but many many are in the government run police and military.
Because you don't like it and it doesn't fit your narrative of big bad US being the root of all evil doesn't mean you can ignore it.
Russia is at best as bad an international actor but actually far likely much much worse. Just look at there recent acts invaded Crimea and support Assad.
I don't know what it's telling you?
Some things are speculative, some have reasonable confirmation. You made one claim in the previous post and another here with assertions fitting into both categories.
I literally didn't ignore it, I was mentioning that your assertions and the reality aren't all confirmed.
In case you miss it, Could you tell me what exactly you're talking about when you say "Maduro and family living like rock stars" and how much wealth you think he's taking personally for himself and his family?
edit: I think he is a billionaire based on how he is living his life and how he and his family are posting on Instragram. Not to mention all the articles about it, but you will believe that is western propaganda so I will stick with the photo's that him and his family are posting themselves and bragging about their wealth in. Honestly GH wake up.
alright you go it. So a "billionaire based on how he's living his life and instagram and articles".
What I'd appreciate so I can better understand your assertion is an example of these articles and a guesstimate how much you roughly think he's spending in his billionaire lifestyle.
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Please refer to the article I posted. Look at the pictures. If they don't tell you enough you can get their tags and look through all their pictures. I'm not going to post them all here because I don't see what the point is, they are are publicly available. The Maduro's are not hiding their wealth, either are the Chavez's or the other top families of the leadership.
I can't wait for the explanation of the bragging about spending 40k on a vacation or fanning themselves with cash and so on. I mean you find the ones that speak to you.
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Now my question to you is, what do you think happened to the TRILLIONS of dollars that the regime pulled in before the sanctions into nationalized companies? Was it all the hand picked Generals corruption? Maduro's Corruption? Maduro encouraging corruption so they would remain loyal no matter what?
And why did Chavez and later Maduro not nationalize more? But only those who supported their opposition? As true socialists wouldn't you want to nationalize all the companies so give all the wealth back to the people?
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And to Nebs earlier point I had to be more even before because at the start before a lot of information had come out there was a chance that it was american propaganda and the set up for a Coup. But it is only becoming clearer and clearer that the coup is not coming, and Madruo is the bad actor in the situation.
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On April 14 2019 04:15 JimmiC wrote:
Please refer to the article I posted. Look at the pictures. If they don't tell you enough you can get their tags and look through all their pictures. I'm not going to post them all here because I don't see what the point is, they are are publicly available. The Maduro's are not hiding their wealth, either are the Chavez's or the other top families of the leadership.
I can't wait for the explanation of the bragging about spending 40k on a vacation or fanning themselves with cash and so on. I mean you find the ones that speak to you.
It wasn't an article, it was a jpg link to I'm guessing something in the Daily Mail, which is less than reputable, but won't stop me from checking it out. That was like $40 in cash if I saw correctly, and I recently saw an CNBC article about how people spending just under half of that every year on vacations can feel average and can't save though, so you don't have to wait for that part.
Worth keeping in mind I live in a country where tax payers are paying $10's of millions just for Trump's golf trips, so $40k doesn't have the impact I think you think it does
EDIT: Read what I think was that article and the only thing it says about "billions" is
Socialist revolution leader Hugo Chavez’s oldest daughter Maria Gabriela is rumoured to be Venezuela’s richest woman, with a personal fortune of more than 4 billion dollars,
A rumor? You're spreading a rumor?
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Your whataboutism about Trump is a great tatic to use against someone who is arguing that Trump is some how good. I am not.
Perhaps you could take the time to go through the Instagram accounts as I suggested. It is not just one photo, and as I pointed out when I posted the article I did it for the photo's there is a lot more info about the wealth. Like how the rumor about Chavez daughter started because the PALACE she was living in cost six figures a day to operate.
And I didn't spread the rumor I have no idea how much shes worth. Only that she is rich as fuck or uses her nations oil revenue like a personal bank account because you don't live like that on a widow of a Presidents pension.
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On April 14 2019 04:53 JimmiC wrote:
Your whataboutism about Trump is a great tatic to use against someone who is arguing that Trump is some how good. I am not.
Perhaps you could take the time to go through the Instagram accounts as I suggested. It is not just one photo, and as I pointed out when I posted the article I did it for the photo's there is a lot more info about the wealth. Like how the rumor about Chavez daughter started because the PALACE she was living in cost six figures a day to operate.
And I didn't spread the rumor I have no idea how much shes worth. Only that she is rich as fuck or uses her nations oil revenue like a personal bank account because you don't live like that on a widow of a Presidents pension.
It's not whataboutism? I was merely pointing out that $40k isn't indicative of living like billionaires or extreme from a US perspective.
No thank you on going through instagram photos. Presumably the best evidence of their "extravagant" lifestyles was pulled out for the article or you can provide it.
So yes, it's a rumor you are actively spreading about some conspiracy theory involving secret European banks and so forth. In fact you have no idea if she's a billionaire, millionaire, or completely dependent on the kindness of affluent fans of her father.
Based on that rumor, her stay at the presidential palace (without objection from most Venezuelans), and your thorough viewing of their instagrams concluded that they are obviously "rich as fuck" or "uses her nations oil revenue like a personal bank account"?
Presumably this is also based on missing revenue, but that's your supporting evidence it's gone to Maduro, Chavez's daughter, and his family to the tune of billions?
Again, your entitled to that opinion, but it looks to me that they are probably living above the means of their nation's available resources for their leaders and relatives, but modest compared to the world and many nations of comparable wealth (maybe slightly on the lavish side, I haven't done a comprehensive look) and certainly, certainly, not like billionaires.
With that in mind, I'm of the opinion the "Chavez daughter is a billionaire" is currently nothing more than a rumor/conspiracy theory being promoted by major publications and repeated here. The rest of your "look at all the rich socialist instagram posts" fits a similarly weakly supported (if at all) argument about the clearly lavish life of the Chavez or Maduro family.
EDIT: Just so we're clear, you are fully aware there are capitalist billionaires in Venezuela that oppose Maduro and support the US intervention?
I don't ask to be rude, but your argument seems predicated on the notion that there aren't people living much more lavish lives than Maduro and or Chavez's daughter in Venezuela?
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I'm aware of the Russia capitalist billionaires that are currently in control and profiting off the Venezuela resources. Along with Maduro and his family, but somehow the people are not.
So MAYBE Guaido will also be bad, or whoever the people elect after a free and fair election. But I know what is happening now is horrendous so I'm willing to roll those dice so are the vast majority of Venezuelans or Maduro wouldn't be so scared of a election.
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How do you think a regime change through a election will negatively effect the Venezuelan people?
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On April 14 2019 05:44 JimmiC wrote:
I'm aware of the Russia capitalist billionaires that are currently in control and profiting off the Venezuela resources. Along with Maduro and his family, but somehow the people are not.
So MAYBE Guaido will also be bad, or whoever the people elect after a free and fair election. But I know what is happening now is horrendous so I'm willing to roll those dice so are the vast majority of Venezuelans or Maduro wouldn't be so scared of a election.
Okay, so you are genuinely unaware of Gustavo Cisneros and Juan Carlos Escotet or you think they are "Russia capitalist billionaires that are currently in control and profiting off the Venezuela resources."?
I think clearing this up should be extremely helpful.
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I think that China and Russia are the ones profiting off PDVSA and Citigo yes. Now can you please answer my above question as I have gone down your rabbit holes and answered yours.
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On April 14 2019 05:57 JimmiC wrote:
I think that China and Russia are the ones profiting off PDVSA and Citigo yes. Now can you please answer my above question as I have gone down your rabbit holes and answered yours.
This isn't a rabbit hole. This is critical. Based on your responses I have to conclude you were unaware the only noted billionaires in Venezuela are capitalists and no friends of Maduro. They just so happen to have extensive ties to the US predating Maduro, and Chavez.
They are in fact exploiting the people of Venezuela for massive personal profits and happen to support US intervention and the massive profits the privatization Guaido has promised will bring them at the direct cost of the Venezuelan people.
Now you may be right that Maduro is also exploiting his people, but the idea that Guaido will be better and your "roll of the dice" seems based on this extensive exchange to be primarily driven by two things.
1. A rather speciously supported claim about the level of extortion that can be linked to Maduro and family (as well as Chavez daughter)
2. A willingness to gamble with the lives of Venezuelans on Guaido (someone new) without an awareness of factors like the billionaire capitalists in Venezuela that stand to benefit from what Guaido is promising.
I can't make you reconsider your position based on this information, but I would strongly recommend it so as not for us to have to revisit the fact that the only definitive billionaire Venezuelans are the anti-Maduro, pro-US, capitalists that explicitly stand to benefit from regime change.
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Im not willing to roll the dice with the Venezuelan peoples life because ho hum I dont care. It is because it cant actually get worse. I dont know your rabbit hole about the Venezuelan deep state. What I do know is with Maduro as leader it has gotten progressively worse for the people. To the point of 3 million refugees, blackouts that last weekz, no running water in major cities, government sponsored violence.
How does regime change though aid and a free and fair election make it worse for the Venezuelan people?
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On April 14 2019 06:59 JimmiC wrote:
Im not willing to roll the dice with the Venezuelan peoples life because ho hum I dont care. It is because it cant actually get worse. I dont know your rabbit hole about the Venezuelan deep state. What I do know is with Maduro as leader it has gotten progressively worse for the people. To the point of 3 million refugees, blackouts that last weekz, no running water in major cities, government sponsored violence.
How does regime change though aid and a free and fair election make it worse for the Venezuelan people?
It definitively can get worse and there are regional examples of that I've already mentioned. One of which, led to the guy heading up the US role in this regime change, to becoming a convicted war criminal. The idea that "it can't actually get any worse" simply isn't true.
I have no idea what you mean "Venezuelan deep state". Literally no idea where that came from?
As to the question
How does regime change though aid and a free and fair election make it worse for the Venezuelan people?
This would be another question I don't even understand the origin of as the principle concern is about how to achieve that. Whether it results in regime change or not.
To be clear, I don't doubt your concern for the Venezuelan people. I doubt that your positions/arguments advance that concern rather than harm it.
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Call me an optimist or even naive. And as I've mentioned many times history will be the judge. But right now I'm putting my money the guy who is fighting with Aid not the guy who is fighting with secret police, violence and has proven he can't effectively govern a nation.
I feel like because of the propaganda you read you believe it is not that bad in Venezuela, there is a reason Maduro finally accepted the aid. And there is a reason millions are leaving. No running water, very little food, areas ran by criminal organizations. It is absolutely awful there.
What is sad is that Maduro did such an awful job and called it socialism that you are right to worry about a fascist taking over, because Maduro has made socialism a easy target based on his horrible management of the country and criminal activity. Hopefully the voters do not make that mistake and I hope they repair the constitution so they just don't end up with a different dictator.
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WCS
