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On October 23 2018 01:58 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 01:56 Plansix wrote:
They are still coming to the border not matter if Pelosi or anyone else advocates for compassion or not. I don't think having a bunch of asylum seekers rot on the border with their children doesn't Democrats any favors either. Mexico isn't going to stop these folks either, they have the same political problems that the US has when it comes to refugees, if not more so. Well I will just say I hope democrats make it very clear they are not hoping to support or assist these asylum seekers in any way. Democrats should be on board with sending extra help to the border to keep people from spilling in.
They need to enter the US in the process of seeking asylum. That is literally the first step on the goverment checklist for how to seek asylum.
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On October 23 2018 02:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 01:58 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 01:56 Plansix wrote:
They are still coming to the border not matter if Pelosi or anyone else advocates for compassion or not. I don't think having a bunch of asylum seekers rot on the border with their children doesn't Democrats any favors either. Mexico isn't going to stop these folks either, they have the same political problems that the US has when it comes to refugees, if not more so. Well I will just say I hope democrats make it very clear they are not hoping to support or assist these asylum seekers in any way. Democrats should be on board with sending extra help to the border to keep people from spilling in. They need to enter the US in the process of seeking asylum. That is literally the first step on the goverment checklist for how to seek asylum.
I am saying I hope democrats advocate for not letting them do any of that. We should turn them away at the door and basically just be like "yeah no".
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On October 23 2018 02:07 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 02:04 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2018 01:58 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 01:56 Plansix wrote:
They are still coming to the border not matter if Pelosi or anyone else advocates for compassion or not. I don't think having a bunch of asylum seekers rot on the border with their children doesn't Democrats any favors either. Mexico isn't going to stop these folks either, they have the same political problems that the US has when it comes to refugees, if not more so. Well I will just say I hope democrats make it very clear they are not hoping to support or assist these asylum seekers in any way. Democrats should be on board with sending extra help to the border to keep people from spilling in. They need to enter the US in the process of seeking asylum. That is literally the first step on the goverment checklist for how to seek asylum. I am saying I hope democrats advocate for not letting them do any of that. We should turn them away at the door and basically just be like "yeah no".
Not really sure that is going to improve voter turn out, turning away 7000 poor people and children because its to close to midterms. Being scared of Trump's race baiting and xenophobia isn't going to change anything. Democrats can either say that asylum seekers should processed and review, or Fox news will just lie about it. So might as well not be complete garbage to win an election.
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On October 23 2018 02:07 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 02:04 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2018 01:58 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 01:56 Plansix wrote:
They are still coming to the border not matter if Pelosi or anyone else advocates for compassion or not. I don't think having a bunch of asylum seekers rot on the border with their children doesn't Democrats any favors either. Mexico isn't going to stop these folks either, they have the same political problems that the US has when it comes to refugees, if not more so. Well I will just say I hope democrats make it very clear they are not hoping to support or assist these asylum seekers in any way. Democrats should be on board with sending extra help to the border to keep people from spilling in. They need to enter the US in the process of seeking asylum. That is literally the first step on the goverment checklist for how to seek asylum. I am saying I hope democrats advocate for not letting them do any of that. We should turn them away at the door and basically just be like "yeah no".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_asylum
That treaty was put into place after the US did exactly that to Jews trying to flee Nazi Germany. Maybe you don't want to be so quick to repeat that and allow them to request asylum... and THEN send them back home if it turns out that there is no reason to flee Honduras (or wherever they're from)? But maybe... there IS a reason to do so?
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On October 23 2018 02:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 02:07 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 02:04 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2018 01:58 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 01:56 Plansix wrote:
They are still coming to the border not matter if Pelosi or anyone else advocates for compassion or not. I don't think having a bunch of asylum seekers rot on the border with their children doesn't Democrats any favors either. Mexico isn't going to stop these folks either, they have the same political problems that the US has when it comes to refugees, if not more so. Well I will just say I hope democrats make it very clear they are not hoping to support or assist these asylum seekers in any way. Democrats should be on board with sending extra help to the border to keep people from spilling in. They need to enter the US in the process of seeking asylum. That is literally the first step on the goverment checklist for how to seek asylum. I am saying I hope democrats advocate for not letting them do any of that. We should turn them away at the door and basically just be like "yeah no". Not really sure that is going to improve voter turn out, turning away 7000 poor people and children because its to close to midterms. Being scared of Trump's race baiting and xenophobia isn't going to change anything. Democrats can either say that asylum seekers should processed and review, or Fox news will just lie about it. So might as well not be complete garbage to win an election.
It's not about being afraid of midterms. Its about the fact that a lot of the country really does not support immigration platforms like the ones that would welcome these 7000 people. At the end of the day, it just isn't that well supported. Being morally ambitious can be good at times, but when you are just falling on deaf ears, it is meaningless.
And my point is that, based on how Trump is tweeting about this, these people are SCREWED either way. They will not be entering the US. We need to think of this as what comes after that fact.
Is it that you are thinking these people will be granted asylum?
On October 23 2018 02:14 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 02:07 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 02:04 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2018 01:58 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 01:56 Plansix wrote:
They are still coming to the border not matter if Pelosi or anyone else advocates for compassion or not. I don't think having a bunch of asylum seekers rot on the border with their children doesn't Democrats any favors either. Mexico isn't going to stop these folks either, they have the same political problems that the US has when it comes to refugees, if not more so. Well I will just say I hope democrats make it very clear they are not hoping to support or assist these asylum seekers in any way. Democrats should be on board with sending extra help to the border to keep people from spilling in. They need to enter the US in the process of seeking asylum. That is literally the first step on the goverment checklist for how to seek asylum. I am saying I hope democrats advocate for not letting them do any of that. We should turn them away at the door and basically just be like "yeah no". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_asylumThat treaty was put into place after the US did exactly that to Jews trying to flee Nazi Germany. Maybe you don't want to be so quick to repeat that and allow them to request asylum... and THEN send them back home if it turns out that there is no reason to flee Honduras (or wherever they're from)? But maybe... there IS a reason to do so?
Can you point me to a recent event that leads you to believe Trump or his administration cares about this? Look at Trump's tweets about this. They are being treated as orc invaders. Trump will gladdddddddddddly shit on an international law/agreement for the sake of being tough on immigration. They aren't getting in.
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Yeah, can we not repeat the same mistakes of late 1930s and 1940s America where we refuse refugees to have the die someplace else? I understand that no one really gives a shit about that era anymore because we turned the Nazi’s into cartoon villains. But the indifference for political convince and protecting the status quo cost the US and the other Allied Nations a lot.
On October 23 2018 02:20 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 02:13 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2018 02:07 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 02:04 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2018 01:58 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 01:56 Plansix wrote:
They are still coming to the border not matter if Pelosi or anyone else advocates for compassion or not. I don't think having a bunch of asylum seekers rot on the border with their children doesn't Democrats any favors either. Mexico isn't going to stop these folks either, they have the same political problems that the US has when it comes to refugees, if not more so. Well I will just say I hope democrats make it very clear they are not hoping to support or assist these asylum seekers in any way. Democrats should be on board with sending extra help to the border to keep people from spilling in. They need to enter the US in the process of seeking asylum. That is literally the first step on the goverment checklist for how to seek asylum. I am saying I hope democrats advocate for not letting them do any of that. We should turn them away at the door and basically just be like "yeah no". Not really sure that is going to improve voter turn out, turning away 7000 poor people and children because its to close to midterms. Being scared of Trump's race baiting and xenophobia isn't going to change anything. Democrats can either say that asylum seekers should processed and review, or Fox news will just lie about it. So might as well not be complete garbage to win an election. It's not about being afraid of midterms. Its about the fact that a lot of the country really does not support immigration platforms like the ones that would welcome these 7000 people. At the end of the day, it just isn't that well supported. Being morally ambitious can be good at times, but when you are just falling on deaf ears, it is meaningless. And my point is that, based on how Trump is tweeting about this, these people are SCREWED either way. They will not be entering the US. We need to think of this as what comes after that fact. Is it that you are thinking these people will be granted asylum?
I am not qualified to grant or deny them asylum. But we should meet our obligation to each of them to see if they would qualify. If not, then we can deport them to someplace that hopefully won't treat them like garbage.
In the alternative, we should just drop out of the refugee convention and just deny everyone at the border like we when the Jews came over on boats in the 1930s and 1940s. And then just admit we are a trash country run by xenophobic clowns like we were in the 1930s. Then I can end the debate with my wife and start looking into moving to Canada or some other not trash country.
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On October 23 2018 02:21 Plansix wrote:Yeah, can we not repeat the same mistakes of late 1930s and 1940s America where we refuse refugees to have the die someplace else? I understand that no one really gives a shit about that era anymore because we turned the Nazi’s into cartoon villains. But the indifference for political convince and protecting the status quo cost the US and the other Allied Nations a lot. Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 02:20 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 02:13 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2018 02:07 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 02:04 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2018 01:58 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 01:56 Plansix wrote:
They are still coming to the border not matter if Pelosi or anyone else advocates for compassion or not. I don't think having a bunch of asylum seekers rot on the border with their children doesn't Democrats any favors either. Mexico isn't going to stop these folks either, they have the same political problems that the US has when it comes to refugees, if not more so. Well I will just say I hope democrats make it very clear they are not hoping to support or assist these asylum seekers in any way. Democrats should be on board with sending extra help to the border to keep people from spilling in. They need to enter the US in the process of seeking asylum. That is literally the first step on the goverment checklist for how to seek asylum. I am saying I hope democrats advocate for not letting them do any of that. We should turn them away at the door and basically just be like "yeah no". Not really sure that is going to improve voter turn out, turning away 7000 poor people and children because its to close to midterms. Being scared of Trump's race baiting and xenophobia isn't going to change anything. Democrats can either say that asylum seekers should processed and review, or Fox news will just lie about it. So might as well not be complete garbage to win an election. It's not about being afraid of midterms. Its about the fact that a lot of the country really does not support immigration platforms like the ones that would welcome these 7000 people. At the end of the day, it just isn't that well supported. Being morally ambitious can be good at times, but when you are just falling on deaf ears, it is meaningless. And my point is that, based on how Trump is tweeting about this, these people are SCREWED either way. They will not be entering the US. We need to think of this as what comes after that fact. Is it that you are thinking these people will be granted asylum? I am not qualified to grant or deny them asylum. But we should meet our obligation to each of them to see if they would qualify. If not, then we can deport them to someplace that hopefully won't treat them like garbage. In the alternative, we should just drop out of the refugee convention and just deny everyone at the border like we when the Jews came over on boats in the 1930s and 1940s. And then just admit we are a trash country run by xenophobic clowns like we were in the 1930s. Then I can end the debate with my wife and start looking into moving to Canada or some other not trash country.
If you need citizenship, we can get married <3 <3 <3
Also, my question is WILL, not SHOULD. By your estimation, do you think this caravan will be granted the rights our laws currently entitle them to? Or do you think Trump will force our government to abide by the populist immigration policies he ran on?
Edit2:
To clarify: My argument is that from an election strategy standpoint, democrats are not favored by fighting this immigration fight. Fighting the lost war of Kavanaugh was a good idea because he was such a mess. This situation is so clear to so many people and it is already pre-determined how it will go. These asylum seekers will get shafted. Real bad. Nothing democrats do will change that. And since modern American culture favors Trump's perspective on immigration, it is even worse. Many Americans feel their situation is so bad that we can't afford to help immigrants.
And since Trump is labeling this a national emergency, it is very clear he ain't worried about those kids.
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On October 23 2018 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 02:21 Plansix wrote:Yeah, can we not repeat the same mistakes of late 1930s and 1940s America where we refuse refugees to have the die someplace else? I understand that no one really gives a shit about that era anymore because we turned the Nazi’s into cartoon villains. But the indifference for political convince and protecting the status quo cost the US and the other Allied Nations a lot. On October 23 2018 02:20 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 02:13 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2018 02:07 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 02:04 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2018 01:58 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 01:56 Plansix wrote:
They are still coming to the border not matter if Pelosi or anyone else advocates for compassion or not. I don't think having a bunch of asylum seekers rot on the border with their children doesn't Democrats any favors either. Mexico isn't going to stop these folks either, they have the same political problems that the US has when it comes to refugees, if not more so. Well I will just say I hope democrats make it very clear they are not hoping to support or assist these asylum seekers in any way. Democrats should be on board with sending extra help to the border to keep people from spilling in. They need to enter the US in the process of seeking asylum. That is literally the first step on the goverment checklist for how to seek asylum. I am saying I hope democrats advocate for not letting them do any of that. We should turn them away at the door and basically just be like "yeah no". Not really sure that is going to improve voter turn out, turning away 7000 poor people and children because its to close to midterms. Being scared of Trump's race baiting and xenophobia isn't going to change anything. Democrats can either say that asylum seekers should processed and review, or Fox news will just lie about it. So might as well not be complete garbage to win an election. It's not about being afraid of midterms. Its about the fact that a lot of the country really does not support immigration platforms like the ones that would welcome these 7000 people. At the end of the day, it just isn't that well supported. Being morally ambitious can be good at times, but when you are just falling on deaf ears, it is meaningless. And my point is that, based on how Trump is tweeting about this, these people are SCREWED either way. They will not be entering the US. We need to think of this as what comes after that fact. Is it that you are thinking these people will be granted asylum? I am not qualified to grant or deny them asylum. But we should meet our obligation to each of them to see if they would qualify. If not, then we can deport them to someplace that hopefully won't treat them like garbage. In the alternative, we should just drop out of the refugee convention and just deny everyone at the border like we when the Jews came over on boats in the 1930s and 1940s. And then just admit we are a trash country run by xenophobic clowns like we were in the 1930s. Then I can end the debate with my wife and start looking into moving to Canada or some other not trash country. If you need citizenship, we can get married <3 <3 <3 Also, my question is WILL, not SHOULD. By your estimation, do you think this caravan will be granted the rights our laws currently entitle them to? Or do you think Trump will force our government to abide by the populist immigration policies he ran on?
An interesting idea. Though very Italian wife might clue them in that it is a sham marriage. She has a history of aggressive not sharing.
Edit: Trump hasn't managed to stop asylum seekers from crossing the border, which is why those camps filled up with kids and their parents. They are asylum seekers too. This won't be any different. If anything, it will refocus the national spotlight that we are still running child abuse camps.
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On October 23 2018 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 02:21 Plansix wrote:Yeah, can we not repeat the same mistakes of late 1930s and 1940s America where we refuse refugees to have the die someplace else? I understand that no one really gives a shit about that era anymore because we turned the Nazi’s into cartoon villains. But the indifference for political convince and protecting the status quo cost the US and the other Allied Nations a lot. On October 23 2018 02:20 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 02:13 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2018 02:07 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 02:04 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2018 01:58 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 01:56 Plansix wrote:
They are still coming to the border not matter if Pelosi or anyone else advocates for compassion or not. I don't think having a bunch of asylum seekers rot on the border with their children doesn't Democrats any favors either. Mexico isn't going to stop these folks either, they have the same political problems that the US has when it comes to refugees, if not more so. Well I will just say I hope democrats make it very clear they are not hoping to support or assist these asylum seekers in any way. Democrats should be on board with sending extra help to the border to keep people from spilling in. They need to enter the US in the process of seeking asylum. That is literally the first step on the goverment checklist for how to seek asylum. I am saying I hope democrats advocate for not letting them do any of that. We should turn them away at the door and basically just be like "yeah no". Not really sure that is going to improve voter turn out, turning away 7000 poor people and children because its to close to midterms. Being scared of Trump's race baiting and xenophobia isn't going to change anything. Democrats can either say that asylum seekers should processed and review, or Fox news will just lie about it. So might as well not be complete garbage to win an election. It's not about being afraid of midterms. Its about the fact that a lot of the country really does not support immigration platforms like the ones that would welcome these 7000 people. At the end of the day, it just isn't that well supported. Being morally ambitious can be good at times, but when you are just falling on deaf ears, it is meaningless. And my point is that, based on how Trump is tweeting about this, these people are SCREWED either way. They will not be entering the US. We need to think of this as what comes after that fact. Is it that you are thinking these people will be granted asylum? I am not qualified to grant or deny them asylum. But we should meet our obligation to each of them to see if they would qualify. If not, then we can deport them to someplace that hopefully won't treat them like garbage. In the alternative, we should just drop out of the refugee convention and just deny everyone at the border like we when the Jews came over on boats in the 1930s and 1940s. And then just admit we are a trash country run by xenophobic clowns like we were in the 1930s. Then I can end the debate with my wife and start looking into moving to Canada or some other not trash country. If you need citizenship, we can get married <3 <3 <3 Also, my question is WILL, not SHOULD. By your estimation, do you think this caravan will be granted the rights our laws currently entitle them to? Or do you think Trump will force our government to abide by the populist immigration policies he ran on?
Granted that you have a xenophobic president and a possibly even more xenophobic AG, my guess is that asylum will be denied for almost every single one of them. Of course, most of them won't even make it to the US as they are currently stuck in Guatemala and can't get into Mexico, which is allowing them to apply for refugee status there. So the whole thing is overblown to the extreme. But no, I don't think the US *will* allow them to stay. Nor am I sure that coming from Honduras fulfills the requirements for requesting asylum. It has one of the highest murder rates per capita, the government is about as corrupt (and in the pockets of narcos) as you can get, and poverty is soaring, but there doesn't seem to be any persecution based on a protected class, which is what international law stipulates. Most modern interpretations consider war (and to a lesser extent famine) as valid causes for granting asylum, but no treaty or law enforces this, and it's up to individual immigration officers to decide based on individual circumstances of the asylum seeker. I have no doubt that Trump and Sessions will want them all sent back. I also have no doubt that a lucky few will be granted asylum if they manage to get all the way to the US and start the process. Their right isn't to be granted asylum. Their right is to seek it.
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The idea that being pro basic human decency a la helping immigrants and at least entertaining asylum applications is politically a bad idea doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny. One of the major, if not the primary, reasons Clinton lost the election was that minority turnout was piss poor. There are literally millions of citizen-immigrants and their children, all voters, who may or may not turnout based on who they perceive to be in their camp. When viewed in concert with the notion that many pro-Trump voters are already as galvanized as can be, this callous disregard for people fleeing violence in the name of political expediency is both cowardly and not justified.
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On October 23 2018 02:41 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 02:02 Acrofales wrote:On October 23 2018 01:33 JimmiC wrote:
Most of them are leaving the shit show that is Venezuela right now. Brazil, Columbia and so on can not handle the 2 million people that have left. It also looks like it is getting worse not better. Some countries are starting to provide aid to countries around Venezuela to help the people, but it such large numbers it is near impossible for them to deal with. Nonsense. Brazil could easily handle 2million refugees. Hell, JORDAN is handling a million, and so is Lebanon.... and those countries have a population of about 3% and 1% of Brazil's. And Colombia is also a hell of a lot more capable of handling that number of refugees than Jordan or Lebanon. But I'm pretty sure they're not Venezuelan refugees. Everything I've read names them "central American" refugees, which means they probably come from Honduras, which is also quite the shit show right now, and a lot easier travel to Mexico than it is from Venezuela (even if you get through Colombia, you still have to pass the Darien gap somehow, and then all through Panama and the rest of central America, whereas Honduras is virtually bordering on Mexico (just Guatemala in the way). Depends what you mean by handle. And how much Aid, and money other countries give. One of the refugee camps maybe more have been attacked by Brazillians accusing them of crime (murering and beating the refugee's ) so the Government sent the military. You could be right, they could be from a number of places or a mix of places. As said by others if the US doesn't want them they should prop up other places to take them, or they are likely coming and there will not be a lot of good options, politically or in reality.
Brazil currently being in the midst of a violently xenophobic political crisis doesn't mean they can't cope. It just means they're assholes. And to be fair, the US (and Europe) are also in the midst of a xenophobic political crisis. They just deny it.
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United States42789 Posts
On October 23 2018 02:07 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 02:04 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2018 01:58 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 01:56 Plansix wrote:
They are still coming to the border not matter if Pelosi or anyone else advocates for compassion or not. I don't think having a bunch of asylum seekers rot on the border with their children doesn't Democrats any favors either. Mexico isn't going to stop these folks either, they have the same political problems that the US has when it comes to refugees, if not more so. Well I will just say I hope democrats make it very clear they are not hoping to support or assist these asylum seekers in any way. Democrats should be on board with sending extra help to the border to keep people from spilling in. They need to enter the US in the process of seeking asylum. That is literally the first step on the goverment checklist for how to seek asylum. I am saying I hope democrats advocate for not letting them do any of that. We should turn them away at the door and basically just be like "yeah no".
That’s not how the process works though. You might as well advocate for opening the criminal justice process with sentencing as a tough on crime approach.
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On October 23 2018 02:46 farvacola wrote:
The idea that being pro basic human decency a la helping immigrants and at least entertaining asylum applications is politically a bad idea doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny. One of the major, if not the primary, reasons Clinton lost the election was that minority turnout was piss poor. There are literally millions of citizen-immigrants and their children, all voters, who may or may not turnout based on who they perceive to be in their camp. When viewed in concert with the notion that many pro-Trump voters are already as galvanized as can be, this callous disregard for people fleeing violence in the name of political expediency is both cowardly and not justified.
Your mistake here is assuming immigrants empathize with these asylum seekers. I will use my older family members as examples. They all immigrated legally and had no issue being accepted many years ago. They are wealthy and do well for themselves. They see illegal Mexican immigrants as a bit of a stain on Hispanic American identity. Immigrants aren't all some big, homogeneous family.
Illegal Mexican immigrants significantly bring down the average perception of Hispanics living in the US. All the racism you hear about directed towards Hispanics is all based on illegal immigrants. People immigrating with engineering degrees aren't the ones involved with gangs.
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I know plenty of first generation immigrants that are sympathetic to asylum seekers and are more than aware of what it means to deny them asylum. And I know a lot more 3rd, 4th and 5th generation Americans that want nothing to do with any party that advocates rejecting those asylum seekers.
And do not delude yourself about the illegal immigrants bringing down the average perception of Hispanics living in the US. I grew up in rural America, the people who want to dislike Hispanics will find a reason. Because the real reason they don't like Hispanics is racism.
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On October 23 2018 03:14 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 02:46 farvacola wrote:
The idea that being pro basic human decency a la helping immigrants and at least entertaining asylum applications is politically a bad idea doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny. One of the major, if not the primary, reasons Clinton lost the election was that minority turnout was piss poor. There are literally millions of citizen-immigrants and their children, all voters, who may or may not turnout based on who they perceive to be in their camp. When viewed in concert with the notion that many pro-Trump voters are already as galvanized as can be, this callous disregard for people fleeing violence in the name of political expediency is both cowardly and not justified. Your mistake here is assuming immigrants empathize with these asylum seekers. I will use my older family members as examples. They all immigrated legally and had no issue being accepted many years ago. They are wealthy and do well for themselves. They see illegal Mexican immigrants as a bit of a stain on Hispanic American identity. Immigrants aren't all some big, homogeneous family. Illegal Mexican immigrants significantly bring down the average perception of Hispanics living in the US. All the racism you hear about directed towards Hispanics is all based on illegal immigrants. People immigrating with engineering degrees aren't the ones involved with gangs.
Replacing one illogical premise with another doesn't cure the error. Your family being full of anti-immigrant immigrants doesn't counsel one way or the other, just as my family of pro immigrant immigrants doesn't. What does figure prominently is baseline perceived sentiments as they relate to shared identities, which is why there's a good case to be made that being pro-immigrant would pay political dividends. In either case, just be honest that you share in your family's anti-immigrant attitude rather than dressing up a shallow availability heuristic as political wisdom.
You even acknowledge that all immigrants aren't some amorphous blob, only to follow it with definitive declarations as to how wealthy immigrants perceive those seeking asylum. That's both inconsistent and dumb.
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On October 23 2018 03:23 Plansix wrote:
I know plenty of first generation immigrants that are sympathetic to asylum seekers and are more than aware of what it means to deny them asylum. And I know a lot more 3rd, 4th and 5th generation Americans that want nothing to do with any party that advocates rejecting those asylum seekers.
And do not delude yourself about the illegal immigrants bringing down the average perception of Hispanics living in the US. I grew up in rural America, the people who want to dislike Hispanics will find a reason. Because the real reason they don't like Hispanics is racism.
True, and I personally support allowing asylum seekers in. But I support it occurring, I do not support democrats fighting for it before midterms. Or even before 2020. My only point is that the term "immigrant" is very broad. That number includes Koreans, Japanese and Chinese. All 3 of those countries are less than tolerant of brown immigrants in their respective countries. People should not be surprised when large numbers of immigrants living in the US does not translate into support for liberal immigration policies.
1. Lots and lots of racism towards Mexicans due to gang related issues among poor black communities
2. Lots and lots of racism towards Hispanics from recently immigrated Asian Americans
3. South Americans do not identify with illegal Mexican immigrants. Kinda like how Japanese people aren't Korean.
4. Lots of resentment towards illegal immigrants from legal immigrants
5. Lots of resentment towards Mexicans from other Hispanics
All of these together serve to explain why widespread support for asylum seekers it isn't as easy as having a large immigrant population.
On October 23 2018 03:29 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 03:14 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2018 02:46 farvacola wrote:
The idea that being pro basic human decency a la helping immigrants and at least entertaining asylum applications is politically a bad idea doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny. One of the major, if not the primary, reasons Clinton lost the election was that minority turnout was piss poor. There are literally millions of citizen-immigrants and their children, all voters, who may or may not turnout based on who they perceive to be in their camp. When viewed in concert with the notion that many pro-Trump voters are already as galvanized as can be, this callous disregard for people fleeing violence in the name of political expediency is both cowardly and not justified. Your mistake here is assuming immigrants empathize with these asylum seekers. I will use my older family members as examples. They all immigrated legally and had no issue being accepted many years ago. They are wealthy and do well for themselves. They see illegal Mexican immigrants as a bit of a stain on Hispanic American identity. Immigrants aren't all some big, homogeneous family. Illegal Mexican immigrants significantly bring down the average perception of Hispanics living in the US. All the racism you hear about directed towards Hispanics is all based on illegal immigrants. People immigrating with engineering degrees aren't the ones involved with gangs. Replacing one illogical premise with another doesn't cure the error. Your family being full of anti-immigrant immigrants doesn't counsel one way or the other, just as my family of pro immigrant immigrants doesn't. What does figure prominently is baseline perceived sentiments as they relate to shared identities, which is why there's a good case to be made that being pro-immigrant would pay political dividends. In either case, just be honest that you share in your family's anti-immigrant attitude rather than dressing up a shallow availability heuristic as political wisdom. You even acknowledge that all immigrants aren't some amorphous blob, only to follow it with definitive declarations as to how wealthy immigrants perceive those seeking asylum. That's both inconsistent and dumb.
lol, I have no reason to lie to some random dude on the internet about my beliefs. I don't have some sort of bullshit social currency I am trying to accumulate as I would in real life. Why in the world would you think I am lying about my beliefs?
Do you imagine a world where I run for governor of TL? That I need to make sure I appease my liberal TL base?
I am not using my bigoted family as evidence there is zero support. I am using my bigoted family to explain why you should not be relying immigrants as a whole for support of asylum seekers. They are a very diverse bunch. Many of them are not reliable voters for supporting illegal Mexican immigrants.
Edit: And to clarify why I don't support anything happening to help these people before 2020: I think it is a losing strategy. #1 priority is to win, then do stuff. Immigration doesn't rally left support the way anti-immigration rallies right-wing support. My only argument here pertains to election strategy. I think clinging on to illegal immigration is a bad move for democrats. Trump has won the national conversation regarding immigration.
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All five of those points are meanginless platitudes that ought serve no role in policymaking. Broadly speaking, none of them are even true given the just as likely tendency that figurative numbers of people hold inverse beliefs. You are using your own experience as a Hispanic to make broad judgments about diverse populations in a manner quite similar to racists and their ethnophobic kin.
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This number of 7000 potential asylum seekers would represent about a 0.5% increase in total immigration per year, by the way. It’s nothing.
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Asylum is not the same as migration. I hate how the right has managed to turn the two of them into the same. Asylum means "I left my home because if i go there, i will be tortured and/or murdered. Please don't send me back to the place where i will be tortured and/or murdered."
Not every person coming into a country is the same. And there are good reasons to have a policy that is open to refugees. Even if you dislike migrants, helping people not get tortured and murdered is a good idea.
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EPT
