US Politics Mega-thread - Page 860

On October 21 2018 17:47 Grumbels wrote:
It’s not just selling weapons, Western military is there operationally.

“If we don’t genocide these people then Russia will” has to be one of the most cynical invocations of realpolitik I’ve witnessed.

Fact of the matter is that if the entire weapons industry was converted into green energy reseach etc., the US wouldn’t need the Saudis anymore. And the US, by having such a strong military, makes the world less safe because it forces all of its geopolitical enemies to keep up with some sort of arms race (probably). World military spending is at an all-time high (source).

On October 22 2018 00:54 JimmiC wrote:
We don't have the same amount of money at stake, and they are already mad at us for us condemning their treatment of women. But we joined the chorus of saying that their explanations are clearly bullshit. I'm glad we are on the right side of this one.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/canada-joins-chorus-of-countries-questioning-saudi’s-khashoggi-explanation/ar-BBOEUtG?li=AAggNb9

On October 21 2018 02:46 m4ini wrote:
I'll play devils advocate.

Should be known what i think of trump or US foreign policies, but here i actually would agree with republicans. Yeah, they murdered a dude. So what. While it obviously sucks for family and friends of that person, the outrage by americans is ridiculous. The US kills innocents by the dozens. Daily. Remember, you guys are still flying drone strikes, and the reason the "number of innocents killed" is so low because you simply label everyone that gets killed a terrorist until proven otherwise. In some strikes, like a wedding in Yemen, that doesn't work - but apart from that, once a terrorist is targeted, everyone who dies around him who's "able military age" is considered a terrorist.

I mean, while of course i absolutely and categorically condemn this murder, i find it far fetched to ask for sanctions, all kinds of retaliation, hurting your own economy massively (especially considering it keeps your industrialised military complex afloat) etc while continuing to accept that your own government does the same - and in fact literally asked for it (kill kids and wives of terrorists, and he apparently had the audacity to ask CIA officials "why did you wait" when they were holding back on a strike for a few minutes to have the target walk away from civilians).

Hell, i'd find it far fetched even if the US wasn't as bad in that regard.

Here's reality: the USA (amongst other countries like Switzerland and Sweden) traded with Nazi Germany even after the war started. And we're not talking some penny-level shit, we're talking IBM, GM and Ford. Hell, GM and Ford produced stuff in germany using "forced labour" (jewish slaves). To the point where the chief executive of GM was awarded a Order of the German Eagle first class by Adolf Hitler himself. Alcoa is another one, probably even worse: they were selling Aluminium ("aluminum") to germany, while holding it back for US fighter production.

Money makes the world go 'round, that's how it always was and always will be. If you have the decision to make between "revenging" a murder by making thousands of innocents losing their jobs, or just swallow it (if it doesn't happen on an industrial scale, obviously), the answer is kinda clear.

Is it moral or ethical? Hell no, it's the polar opposite. But ask yourself this. Are you okay forcing your companies to lay off people, some of which rely on the income to pay medical bills etc (and i know how much money the higher ups make and how that could be somewhat fixed by distributing money differently, but that's never gonna happen so lets not argue with that pipedream in mind - it's always the little guy who pays the bill)? I'm not sure that i find that more ethical.

edit: and that's not even taking into account how problematic retaliation by SA could be, since the US is such an energy/oil hog.

On October 22 2018 18:02 iamthedave wrote:


It's possible you've forgotten an important bit of context.

Russia has recently been on a bit of an assassination holiday. If the Saudis essentially walk this off, what right do we have to tut at the Russians? Yet again, we'll be strengthening Putin's position. He'll immediately say 'look at what the Saudis did. Awful. What did these governments do about that? But when it is Russia, suddenly it is a big deal'. And he'll be absolutely right.

I think a lot of people in the larger west don't appreciate how much it strengthens him to be able to correctly point out western hypocrisy on matters like this.

@Blitzkrieg: Which genocide in particular?

If America can legitimately kill its citizens in Yemen, why can't Russia do the same in London? A few wonder if it already has, pointing to the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko.

On October 22 2018 18:02 iamthedave wrote:

@Blitzkrieg: Which genocide in particular?

On October 22 2018 19:19 m4ini wrote:

Hell, people argued "well everyone does it though" when it became irrefutable that the US is wiretapping Merkel. Do you not see the double standard? I mean, sure, probably everyone does it, but this isn't an argument that you get to use when it suits you - it's universal.

On October 22 2018 19:19 m4ini wrote:


Let me quote BBC on that one.



I feel like you amongst others are the ones missing important context. Russia, or SA, didn't do anything the west isn't doing too. If you don't want the bad, bad russians to be able to point at "the west" for doing the same shit, here's a tip.

Don't do the same shit. Because if you do, and we absolutely do, we'd look really stupid trying to take the moral high ground. That's why the US criticising the crimea problem was equally moronic. You know, the country that destabilised an entire region based on "evidence" that turned out to be bogus?

Putin doesn't need anything to be able to point out western hypocrisy. That ship is way sailed, it almost rediscovered america by now. It's just that "the west" collectively decided to weigh russian bullshit considerably heavier than western bullshit (and btw vice versa in russia), even if it's the fucking same or worse. Once you treat "the west" and "russia/the east" equally, things tend to look very different from the viewpoint you're championing.

Hell, people argued "well everyone does it though" when it became irrefutable that the US is wiretapping Merkel. Do you not see the double standard? I mean, sure, probably everyone does it, but this isn't an argument that you get to use when it suits you - it's universal.

edit: to be clear, in no way i'm condoning what russia or SA is doing. I'm criticising the hypocrisy shown by you and others, to the point where you're okay with potentially hurting more innocents just to shove it to russia/SA for something that the west is doing too.

On October 22 2018 22:29 Plansix wrote:
The discomfort with the Yemen conflict has been a slow build for a companies, politicians and the public. I also don’t believe there has been a real discussion of what would happen if the US pulls support for the conflict that in Yemen. The murder of a Reporter for the Post is really the final straw that is causing companies and the public to reassess the indifference they had about the US’s relationship with SA. And indifference is the key part. I think most of the public was uncomfortable with SA, but accepted there is only so much we can do to change a nation.

On October 23 2018 01:12 Plansix wrote:
It’s like 7000 poor immigrants trying to find a country to give a shit about them. They are traveling together because it is safer that way. That is it. It isn’t that complex and not much of a threat to the US. Even if it were 7000 criminals, I think we could take them.

On October 23 2018 01:18 Mohdoo wrote:


Are they trying to live in the US? What is their goal/destination?

On October 23 2018 01:26 Plansix wrote:

They are traveling to the US border and are going to request asylum. If some other country offered them asylum and aid along the way, some of them might take it. It is just a large group of asylum seekers that the President has decided is a danger to the country.

On October 23 2018 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:


That sounds terrible. For the love god, democrats, just say no to this. I would not be surprised if the DNC bungled their response to this caravan so bad they lost the house.

On October 23 2018 01:33 JimmiC wrote:
Most of them are leaving the shit show that is Venezuela right now. Brazil, Columbia and so on can not handle the 2 million people that have left. It also looks like it is getting worse not better. Some countries are starting to provide aid to countries around Venezuela to help the people, but it such large numbers it is near impossible for them to deal with.

On October 23 2018 01:56 Plansix wrote:
They are still coming to the border not matter if Pelosi or anyone else advocates for compassion or not. I don't think having a bunch of asylum seekers rot on the border with their children doesn't Democrats any favors either. Mexico isn't going to stop these folks either, they have the same political problems that the US has when it comes to refugees, if not more so.

On October 23 2018 01:33 JimmiC wrote:
Most of them are leaving the shit show that is Venezuela right now. Brazil, Columbia and so on can not handle the 2 million people that have left. It also looks like it is getting worse not better. Some countries are starting to provide aid to countries around Venezuela to help the people, but it such large numbers it is near impossible for them to deal with.