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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 654

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-08-29 16:59:19
August 29 2018 16:58 GMT
#13061
There is a good article from 2014 about how that phrase has this racist baggage in the US. Maybe abroad too. It isn't overtly super racist, but always seems to be used by white folks describing a well educated black person. It raises the same flag for me that "S/he is one of the good ones" raises when people talk about any minority.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12559 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-08-29 17:45:38
August 29 2018 17:39 GMT
#13062
DeSantis is better at this than I thought, his ad about sucking up to Trump led me to believe that he was inept but that interview was decently crafted, a good job of openly pandering to racists while still maintaining an out for the people who want to go "Oh the left calls everyone they don't like racists blblbl"
No will to live, no wish to die
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
August 29 2018 18:30 GMT
#13063
https://www.politico.eu/article/rudy-giuliani-trump-lawyer-paid-to-criticize-romanian-anti-corruption-drive-klaus-iohannis/

Donald Trump’s personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani was being paid by a global consulting firm when he sent a letter to the president of Romania last week that contradicted the U.S. government’s official position.

Giuliani’s letter to Romanian President Klaus Iohannis appears to take sides in a fight at the top of the Romanian government over how to rein in high-level corruption.

The former New York mayor’s letter criticizes the “excesses” of Romania’s National Anticorruption Directorate (DNA), contrary to U.S. State Department policy, which has been supportive of the agency’s efforts. Although the missive does not claim to have been sent on President Trump’s authority, Romanian politicians seeking to blunt the power of the DNA have already used it to sow doubt about the U.S. government’s position.

In the letter, dated August 22 and first reported by Mediafax, Giuliani writes that the DNA has overstepped its bounds, “including: intimidation of judges, defense lawyers, and witnesses; unconstitutional phone tapping; forced confessions; and, unfair judicial processes.”

Giuliani calls for an amnesty to be extended “to those who have been prosecuted and convicted through the excesses of the DNA.”


Guiliani seems to try and be stepping his boundaries here? Apparently the US Government was stern on the corruption going on within Romania, and now Guiliani is apparently working for the government as a lawyer? Here he's sending a letter to the President of Romania condemning the anti-corruption group in Romania. So I wonder at this point, is this something he shouldn't be doing? I assume so, I feel like you're acting as a foreign agent within another country. He also got paid to try and lobby the Romanian president...

I guess I don't know enough global politics here to see how this is bad, but I just know it's bad?
Life?
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany12022 Posts
August 29 2018 18:45 GMT
#13064
As far as i know, the Anti-corruption thing in romania is not without criticism. I heard that some people say that it is a way to fight the political opposition (The worst of sources, i know) I do not know enough about romanian politics to know whether any of that is true. Maybe someone who knows more about it could give us a better perspective?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 29 2018 18:51 GMT
#13065
The important part of that story is that the president’s attorney has also been retained by foreign government to do anything. It at minimum a conflict of interest. And is he a registered foreign agent?
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22648 Posts
August 29 2018 19:12 GMT
#13066
I would lol so hard if Guiliani is yet another unregistered foreign agent :p
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 29 2018 19:16 GMT
#13067
I do not believe he is a registered foreign agent, from a quick Google search.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
IyMoon
Profile Joined April 2016
United States1249 Posts
August 29 2018 19:46 GMT
#13068
But is he a foreign agent in this play? Isn't he acting as a US citizen? Is it because he is paid from a foreign source?
Something witty
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 29 2018 19:58 GMT
#13069
He is accepting money a group to lobby a foreign goverment for a specific action, while also representing the president.

It is unclear who the Freeh Group was representing when it hired him. Its all super shady and lacks disclosure.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Uldridge
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium5231 Posts
August 29 2018 20:03 GMT
#13070
On August 30 2018 01:58 Plansix wrote:
There is a good article from 2014 about how that phrase has this racist baggage in the US. Maybe abroad too. It isn't overtly super racist, but always seems to be used by white folks describing a well educated black person. It raises the same flag for me that "S/he is one of the good ones" raises when people talk about any minority.


So, just to get this straight;
-White people always, like it's conditioned, say this phrase when they hear an educated black person speak.
-The article citing a study on internalized racism (or better yet, stereotypes, since it works for black and white people), but not disclosing any of the intricacies of the study, confirms that internalized stereotypes are a thing.
-Every white person considers himself as articulate and we all think so of one another.
-The observation that a black educated person is articulate and commenting that is racist because it's some kind of unexpected feature of a black man and not just a simple observation.


The article saying:
When we call a person of color articulate, it can suggest—either intentionally or unintentionally—that she’s exceptional, whereas, by contrast, it can suggest that white people are automatically assumed to be articulate.
, is basically the crux of the issue here, where it assumes white people feel superior intellectually because they say those words when they hear an educated black person speak. This feels like a satirical bit referencing a time where your same "he's one of the good one's" was a truly racially divided USA.

Please tell me, how far do you want to go with the stripping of every nuance in social interactions? When will phrases be neutral enough so it won't keep you up at night?
Taxes are for Terrans
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 29 2018 20:14 GMT
#13071
On August 30 2018 05:03 Uldridge wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 30 2018 01:58 Plansix wrote:
There is a good article from 2014 about how that phrase has this racist baggage in the US. Maybe abroad too. It isn't overtly super racist, but always seems to be used by white folks describing a well educated black person. It raises the same flag for me that "S/he is one of the good ones" raises when people talk about any minority.


So, just to get this straight;
-White people always, like it's conditioned, say this phrase when they hear an educated black person speak.
-The article citing a study on internalized racism (or better yet, stereotypes, since it works for black and white people), but not disclosing any of the intricacies of the study, confirms that internalized stereotypes are a thing.
-Every white person considers himself as articulate and we all think so of one another.
-The observation that a black educated person is articulate and commenting that is racist because it's some kind of unexpected feature of a black man and not just a simple observation.


The article saying:
Show nested quote +
When we call a person of color articulate, it can suggest—either intentionally or unintentionally—that she’s exceptional, whereas, by contrast, it can suggest that white people are automatically assumed to be articulate.
, is basically the crux of the issue here, where it assumes white people feel superior intellectually because they say those words when they hear an educated black person speak. This feels like a satirical bit referencing a time where your same "he's one of the good one's" was a truly racially divided USA.

Please tell me, how far do you want to go with the stripping of every nuance in social interactions? When will phrases be neutral enough so it won't keep you up at night?

To put it another way:

Someone who was mixed race told a story about how a woman recoiled in shock, saying “She didn’t expect him to be so articulate” and was impressed he finished college. Black folks don’t often experience that word as a compliment. It’s a phrase people with deep internalized racism use when they are surprised the black person speaks in full sentences and likes to read.

And none of this keeps me up at night. I barely worry about it. I choose not to be opposed to the idea that articulate has subtle racial connotations to black people in the US and open to further understand of why that is.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18869 Posts
August 29 2018 20:21 GMT
#13072
One of the takeaways from all of this is that language does not and cannot exist in a vacuum. What we say and how we say it implicates how it was said before, who said it, and why they said it. Starting there is a good way to recognize the pitfalls of using particular terms or phrases, as opposed to the selfish denialism that informs "I am me and my words are mine" immaturity.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14211 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-08-29 20:42:58
August 29 2018 20:22 GMT
#13073
On August 30 2018 05:03 Uldridge wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 30 2018 01:58 Plansix wrote:
There is a good article from 2014 about how that phrase has this racist baggage in the US. Maybe abroad too. It isn't overtly super racist, but always seems to be used by white folks describing a well educated black person. It raises the same flag for me that "S/he is one of the good ones" raises when people talk about any minority.


So, just to get this straight;
-White people always, like it's conditioned, say this phrase when they hear an educated black person speak.
-The article citing a study on internalized racism (or better yet, stereotypes, since it works for black and white people), but not disclosing any of the intricacies of the study, confirms that internalized stereotypes are a thing.
-Every white person considers himself as articulate and we all think so of one another.
-The observation that a black educated person is articulate and commenting that is racist because it's some kind of unexpected feature of a black man and not just a simple observation.


The article saying:
Show nested quote +
When we call a person of color articulate, it can suggest—either intentionally or unintentionally—that she’s exceptional, whereas, by contrast, it can suggest that white people are automatically assumed to be articulate.
, is basically the crux of the issue here, where it assumes white people feel superior intellectually because they say those words when they hear an educated black person speak. This feels like a satirical bit referencing a time where your same "he's one of the good one's" was a truly racially divided USA.

Please tell me, how far do you want to go with the stripping of every nuance in social interactions? When will phrases be neutral enough so it won't keep you up at night?

Its embedded enough in US culture that its practically an accepted narrative device I'm going to try and find the key and peel sketch that explains it a lot. But its an indirect insult which belongs to a theme of insults that demean minorities. Its either to say that someone is an exception to their races trait or that they are physically superior but not mentally superior.

I can't find it. I went through a list of key and peel sketchs and it wasn't on it. I swear It exist in some form. It has the white guy describing the black players as physicaly great while all the white players as being mentally great. key and peel are in it and catch on before the punch line gets delivered. I swear its real.

just look at start trek for tv and the lone ranger for movies. the theme of the "noble savage" and "the good one" is a really unfortunate thing that got tied into a lot of stories.

The problem with labeling language as never being in a vacuum is that there isn't considered a chance for "legitimate ignorance" instead labeling anyone who uses cretin words as being racist without any consideration on the spectrum between "country person whos never seen a minority" and "literal nazi"
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6223 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-08-29 20:25:28
August 29 2018 20:25 GMT
#13074
On August 30 2018 04:46 IyMoon wrote:
But is he a foreign agent in this play? Isn't he acting as a US citizen? Is it because he is paid from a foreign source?


Did a quick google.

The tl;dr seems to be that if his work with Romania or any foreign country affects any of his official work, in any way (which it likely does), he should've registered.
A few sources:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/10/politics/rudy-giuliani-foreign-clients/index.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/rudy-giuliani-foreign-contacts-iran-russia-robert-mueller-probe-a8441006.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/giuliani-works-for-foreign-clients-while-serving-as-trumps-attorney/2018/07/09/e21554ae-7988-11e8-80be-6d32e182a3bc_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.0c3bedcab9dd

The legal experts quoted in the articles - I'm not a lawyer, but there's at minimum the appearance of a conflict of interest here:

"Carrie Menkel-Meadow, a legal-ethics professor at the University of California at Irvine, said it is generally unwise for the president’s attorney to have foreign business clients, because of the high likelihood they will have competing interests.

“I think Rudy believes because he is doing the job pro bono the rules do not apply to him, but they do,” Menkel-Meadow said.


In May, the former New York mayor delivered a paid speech in Washington to Mujahideen-e-Khalq, or MEK, an Iranian resistance group formerly listed by the State Department as a terrorist organisation from 1997 to 2012, in which he called for regime change in Tehran. His consulting firm has also reportedly kept a list of clientele from cities across the globe, who have hired him to help with their security and police practices.

Such actions are considered "political activity" under FARA, according to Josh Rosenstein, an attorney with the firm Sandler Reiff Lamb Rosenstein & Birkenstock and an expert on the foreign agent statute. "The speech in Washington on behalf of MEK constituted measurable political activity under virtually any reading of the statute," he said.


Seems to be open/shut from my point of view. He should be similar to Gates in this regard.
Uldridge
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium5231 Posts
August 29 2018 20:29 GMT
#13075
So what kind of language would you use if you wanted to express how impressed you were with someone being articulate?
Taxes are for Terrans
IyMoon
Profile Joined April 2016
United States1249 Posts
August 29 2018 20:39 GMT
#13076
On August 30 2018 05:29 Uldridge wrote:
So what kind of language would you use if you wanted to express how impressed you were with someone being articulate?


I've never been impressed someone is articulate unless I thought down about them in the first place. Saying someone is articulate is never really a compliment. It is either a statement of fact, or a backhanded insult "Wow, I can't believe THIS person is so articulate"
Something witty
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
August 29 2018 20:44 GMT
#13077
On August 30 2018 01:58 Plansix wrote:
There is a good article from 2014 about how that phrase has this racist baggage in the US. Maybe abroad too. It isn't overtly super racist, but always seems to be used by white folks describing a well educated black person. It raises the same flag for me that "S/he is one of the good ones" raises when people talk about any minority.

I get that the context DeSantis used it in is sketchy as fuck, but after the 8 year Bush II reign of verbal terror, not being able to remark on how extremely well spoken Obama was in comparison seems unfair
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12559 Posts
August 29 2018 20:44 GMT
#13078
Eloquent probably
No will to live, no wish to die
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28906 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-08-29 20:51:36
August 29 2018 20:48 GMT
#13079
hm like I've definitely described Obama as articulate in the past, and there was not even the tiniest veiled racisty thing involved in that. It's just that he's incredibly articulate. Not 'surprisingly so for a black man', just, compared to pretty much everyone. I get that in this context, where he also uses the phrase monkeying around, you can read more into it, but I really don't think there should be anything default racist about describing a black person as articulate. And it is a compliment, at least I use it as such.
Moderator
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12559 Posts
August 29 2018 20:50 GMT
#13080
For the record that's exactly why DeSantis's dogwhistle is pretty good. The target audience knows exactly what he's going for and we on the outside are left with this conversation.
No will to live, no wish to die
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