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you heard of this little incident called covid right? exactly what your first link also says.
this is what the no immigrant crowd - under thunderous applause - does. then screams openly in no uncertain terms of the great replacement.
Texas has spent over $148 million busing migrants to other parts of the country
In April 2022, Texas Republican Gov. Greg Abbott announced his state was going to start transporting to other states migrants who had been released from federal custody. He said he was doing it to prevent the state from shouldering "the burdens imposed by open-border advocates in other parts of the country."
Nearly two years later, Texas has transported over 102,000 migrants to New York, Chicago, Denver, Philadelphia, Los Angeles and Washington, D.C.
Mamdani's victory showed what is what: "affordability stupid!", a slightly remodeled to the times "it's the economy stupid".
in between it's tax squabbles and crime panics that work wonders.
and fuck those billionaires spending 100+ million dollars and threatening to leave only to spectacularly fail their goal and have eggs on their faces.
real patriots and endowed with the wisdom of thousands of years of judeo-christian values like - fuck that poor people shit I got mine and I am leaving at the mere sight of a 2 percent tax increase.
imagine there is a war. their money is gone faster than their gulfstreams can take off.
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On November 06 2025 12:40 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2025 12:24 Introvert wrote:On November 06 2025 01:38 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2025 11:04 Introvert wrote:On November 05 2025 10:44 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2025 10:03 Introvert wrote:On November 05 2025 00:37 Billyboy wrote:On November 04 2025 22:51 Simberto wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:@introvert “We have no inflation,” President Donald Trump said in his “60 Minutes” interview Sunday evening. “Our groceries are down.” You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so? What a crazy world. The strategy seems to be to go full-on 1984 doublethink. It is insane to watch from the outside. On November 04 2025 23:05 Introvert wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:@introvert “We have no inflation,” President Donald Trump said in his “60 Minutes” interview Sunday evening. “Our groceries are down.” You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so? What a crazy world. Huh? Why are you asking me about this? No, I don't like lying but people are inured to Trump's... mis-statements. Besides, dems are too busy shutting down the government and arguing about their various issues of concern to talk much about prices. It's no wonder their image is still in the toilet. We'll have to see if they improve on 2024 margins in elections tonight, if they don't... that's yikes. Maybe then they will learn something. But winning will probably hide their problems. Might even elect as AG the guy who wished his opponent's children were shot and killed, so everyone is off their rocker atm On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. The hope is that at some point the not stupid Republicans will go "Holy shit it is an embarrassment and absolutely terrible for our country that we have a compulsive lying, dumb, narcissistic, nepo baby who openly takes bribes leading out party, this is bad thing." Hell you do not even need to vote Dem, you could just join the Republicans and against Trump and try to pry your party out of the stupidest era. I can not understand how you Americans treat politics like team sports and support your parties guy no matter how clearly incompetent he is. It is also incredibly stupid that what is "winning" to people seems to be beating the other party and not making the country better. Your country is on the fast track to becoming a shit hole and you are there cheering for it because you get to beat the dems. It is so painful to watch. Hard as it may be for you to believe, I do on the whole think Republican policy positions are better for the country than Democrat ones. You have no idea what I say to people on "my side" since there aren't any of them here. It is interesting how you and many other posters continue to think this is just about making sure "my team" wins, as if I couldn't have good reasons for preferring it. You'd hope that people who spend hours upon hours lecturing GH on being a team player might grasp this but I guess it's too complicated. + Show Spoiler +On November 05 2025 02:42 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. I mean, trying might help? In a more generalised sense. Many people want their ‘team’ to win, of course. If one is losing though, so long as the game is played in the right spirit, as it were that goes a distance. Outside these particular walls, sure it might be different. Within them, I would wager that getting Republicans to go ‘GOP’ bad isn’t a particular aspiration. It would be conservatives having their own red lines, and acting accordingly. Something like that anyway, some self-regulation. I mean I must have made similar posts on this theme at least 10 times prior. So expanding much is a bit redundant. You can collectively do that, and have a slightly more civil wider discourse, or not. Wider conservatism can’t have civil discourse with those who disagree with that creed if it reflexively defends everything the God King does, even the stuff that contravenes their ostensible principles. The natural conclusion becomes that conservatives don’t care about stated principles when it suits, so why should I care when they’re invoked against something I want? Or indeed just want to be ruled by a belligerent Orange King (us Norn Irish can understand the appeal) It’s not necessarily about building bridges across the aisle, it’s that self-policing exists internally. The wider left aren’t exactly great at the former either. But they do tend to criticise their own more. As I said recently, I don't see the need to spent so much time trashing Trump around here for a few reasons. First, there's no one to actually have a discussion with. Yes, tariffs are bad. Glad we agree! Now what? Second, I recall having this conversation every so often, including with you. But then I watch people support murder in public, or voting for a man who fantasized about wanting his opponents children shot, and I realize there isn't really that much to discuss. The pushback on those posts is incredibly limited. You've given me crap before for not criticizing Trump more and then when someone is gunned down in the street you shrugged. The level of self-debasement I'd have to put myself through to appeal to such people is not worth it. And finally, as I said above, I still think that yes, Democrats are worse on basically every metric imaginable. Why I would focus on orange man bad to appease a bunch of murder fanatics who believe all their opponents are closet fascists is going to have to be explained. I actually do get it, I like in a 95% conservative place, but still most of them think Trump is a moron. My point, which I stated already, is not that you vote Dem. But you should be like, we need to get this moron off the top of our ticket and stop running our country. I can't believe that you honestly think a guy who doesn't understand percentages is the right guy to broker trade deals. Especially when it is clear that he is making them based on who sucks up the most. I can barely believe you want tariffs, since no fiscal conservative I have ever met thought they were a good idea before Trump started talking about them. But that aside, this guy is the one who is going to use them properly to make America stronger? The reason the Ontario ad pissed him off so much was because it is true and many Republicans love Reagan. That was a conservative government who made them as well. Like I get you want something done about immigration, and something dramatic. But do you know how much this is costing? And how much it is actually working? Are you even getting more out than in? You are going to trust this guy to tell you real information? When he just flat lies about inflation (I mean everything always), but what he says about how the immigration is going is true? Like are you really that gullible? You can not trust any of the information this government spews, it is all to make them look good and they don't even bother hiding it and you cheer them for tricking you. It's lunacy. If a Dem accepted a multi hundred million dollar plane from a foreign government would you be OK with it? Of course not because you know that there are strings attached and those strings are not in Americas interest, they are in the other country who gave the bribe. But Trump taking them is good? He is taking tons! Maybe you think bailing out Argentina is a good deal after you gift wrapped them all of China Soy bean sales, for reasons. But I can't imagine you think doing it again and then buying a whole shit ton of their cattle to fuck your own farmers was good? Are you a protectionist with tariffs or what? So many were for Trump because he would not tart wars, was a man of peace. How is that working out? What is going on with Venezuela? WTF is that costing? No where near any sort of ROI on the tiny couple of drug boats they sunk. Hows that blanced budget coming? What I'm getting at, and there is way more examples, is that Trump is a populist liar. He has told you he is a conservative and you believed it. He is clearly not one, and only interested in attention and wealth for himself. He is comically stupid, and the lies are not remotely smart and change by the week. The ask isn't that you vote Dem, or become a socialist. It is that you be a conservative, hold those values and hold your own party accountable. Not be a useful idiot for the MAGA ideocracy because they wear your jersey. That is actually exactly the same thing that was asked of GH. Stop pretending that Maduro is actually fighting capitalists from his billion dollar palace. Start actually trying to make the Dem party better. Hasn't "primary the bad dems" been said to him 1000 times. There is no irony, just logical consistency. You might not be used to that given that what Trump tells you is good changes by the week. edit: Also to your comment to wombat. How often were people called fascists before Trump? Could it not be possible (even likely) that people do not think that conservatives are fascists, but rather they the think Trump and his group are fascists? Have you even bothered to read what a fascist is and does? It is Trump, he hits like almost every point. + Show Spoiler +1. Powerful, often exclusionary, populist nationalism centered on cult of a redemptive, “infallible”
leader who never admits mistakes.
2. Political power derived from questioning reality, endorsing myth and rage, and promoting lies.
3. Fixation with perceived national decline, humiliation, or victimhood.
4. White Replacement “Theory” used to show that democratic ideals of freedom and equality are a threat.
Oppose any initiatives or institutions that are racially, ethnically, or religiously harmonious.
5. Disdain for human rights while seeking purity and cleansing for those they define as part of the nation.
6. Identification of “enemies”/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Imprison and/or murder opposition and minority
group leaders.
7. Supremacy of the military and embrace of paramilitarism in an uneasy, but effective
collaboration with traditional elites. Fascists arm people and justify and glorify violence as “redemptive”.
8. Rampant sexism.
9. Control of mass media and undermining “truth”.
10. Obsession with national security, crime and punishment, and fostering a sense of the nation under attack.
11. Religion and government are intertwined.
12. Corporate power is protected and labor power is suppressed.
13. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts not aligned with the fascist narrative.
14. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Loyalty to the leader is paramount and often more important than competence.
15. Fraudulent elections and creation of a one-party state.
16. Often seeking to expand territory through armed conflict.
Well I didn't vote for him so I did my part to "get him off the ticket" if that's what you want. Again, you have no idea what is said elsewhere. I have repeatedly said the tariffs are bad, I think they are actually his biggest mistake so far. They a counter-productive at home and they make rallying our allies against adversaries that much more difficult. I wouldn't even tarriff the Europeans! There are other ways of getting them to pay for their own defense. What's happening with immigration is the natural counter reaction. You have to have rules, and Biden spent four years ignoring them, and now enforcing them is going to hurt. It's always a tough question of how strictly to you start enforcing rules once a pattern of breaking them has emerged. and now some people who previously wouldn't have been deported now will be. probably should have considered that when dems spent years denying there was even anything wrong. Of course Trump shouldn't accept the plane. I don't mind helping Argentina. Trump's foreign policy has been his best aspect so far (tariffs excluded). Dem weak FP as usual is awful. You seem to be attributing to me a lot of positions I have never offered about Trump? Like again, no Trump doesn't care about a balanced budget, but if dems got their way they'd blow everything out as their projected tax revenue never lived up to expectations, and it would be used to support tons of government growth that I fundamentally disagree with. Again, and I know you have a special hatred for GH, but you have to realize I am thinking in similar terms. Yes, Trump sucks. Yes, I wish it were a different Republican. No, banging on about it here does nothing. Which leads to... On November 05 2025 10:46 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2025 10:03 Introvert wrote:On November 05 2025 00:37 Billyboy wrote:On November 04 2025 22:51 Simberto wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:@introvert “We have no inflation,” President Donald Trump said in his “60 Minutes” interview Sunday evening. “Our groceries are down.” You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so? What a crazy world. The strategy seems to be to go full-on 1984 doublethink. It is insane to watch from the outside. On November 04 2025 23:05 Introvert wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:@introvert “We have no inflation,” President Donald Trump said in his “60 Minutes” interview Sunday evening. “Our groceries are down.” You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so? What a crazy world. Huh? Why are you asking me about this? No, I don't like lying but people are inured to Trump's... mis-statements. Besides, dems are too busy shutting down the government and arguing about their various issues of concern to talk much about prices. It's no wonder their image is still in the toilet. We'll have to see if they improve on 2024 margins in elections tonight, if they don't... that's yikes. Maybe then they will learn something. But winning will probably hide their problems. Might even elect as AG the guy who wished his opponent's children were shot and killed, so everyone is off their rocker atm On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. The hope is that at some point the not stupid Republicans will go "Holy shit it is an embarrassment and absolutely terrible for our country that we have a compulsive lying, dumb, narcissistic, nepo baby who openly takes bribes leading out party, this is bad thing." Hell you do not even need to vote Dem, you could just join the Republicans and against Trump and try to pry your party out of the stupidest era. I can not understand how you Americans treat politics like team sports and support your parties guy no matter how clearly incompetent he is. It is also incredibly stupid that what is "winning" to people seems to be beating the other party and not making the country better. Your country is on the fast track to becoming a shit hole and you are there cheering for it because you get to beat the dems. It is so painful to watch. Hard as it may be for you to believe, I do on the whole think Republican policy positions are better for the country than Democrat ones. You have no idea what I say to people on "my side" since there aren't any of them here. It is interesting how you and many other posters continue to think this is just about making sure "my team" wins, as if I couldn't have good reasons for preferring it. You'd hope that people who spend hours upon hours lecturing GH on being a team player might grasp this but I guess it's too complicated. On November 05 2025 02:42 WombaT wrote:On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. I mean, trying might help? In a more generalised sense. Many people want their ‘team’ to win, of course. If one is losing though, so long as the game is played in the right spirit, as it were that goes a distance. Outside these particular walls, sure it might be different. Within them, I would wager that getting Republicans to go ‘GOP’ bad isn’t a particular aspiration. It would be conservatives having their own red lines, and acting accordingly. Something like that anyway, some self-regulation. I mean I must have made similar posts on this theme at least 10 times prior. So expanding much is a bit redundant. You can collectively do that, and have a slightly more civil wider discourse, or not. Wider conservatism can’t have civil discourse with those who disagree with that creed if it reflexively defends everything the God King does, even the stuff that contravenes their ostensible principles. The natural conclusion becomes that conservatives don’t care about stated principles when it suits, so why should I care when they’re invoked against something I want? Or indeed just want to be ruled by a belligerent Orange King (us Norn Irish can understand the appeal) It’s not necessarily about building bridges across the aisle, it’s that self-policing exists internally. The wider left aren’t exactly great at the former either. But they do tend to criticise their own more. As I said recently, I don't see the need to spent so much time trashing Trump around here for a few reasons. First, there's no one to actually have a discussion with. Yes, tariffs are bad. Glad we agree! Now what? Second, I recall having this conversation every so often, including with you. But then I watch people support murder in public, or voting for a man who fantasized about wanting his opponents children shot, and I realize there isn't really that much to discuss. The pushback on those posts is incredibly limited. You've given me crap before for not criticizing Trump more and then when someone is gunned down in the street you shrugged. The level of self-debasement I'd have to put myself through to appeal to such people is not worth it. And finally, as I said above, I still think that yes, Democrats are worse on basically every metric imaginable. Why I would focus on orange man bad to appease a bunch of murder fanatics who believe all their opponents are closet fascists is going to have to be explained. So what? Why does any of that matter? Trump being a complete disgrace of a President can co-exist with those criticisms of other actors. One can also be a conservative while not supporting Trump, it’s emminently possible, indeed I’d argue that Trump is that divorced from general conservative principles that it should be the default. You’re supposed to have principles. Me not giving much of a shit that Charlie Kirk got shot shouldn’t upset the applecart too much. But your cohort evidently doesn’t, so who cares? It’s a battle now, and next time it swings the other way your lot is fucked. Nobody is going to care about catering to the desires of decent conservatives if they’ve spent a cumulative 8 years sucking Donald Trump off and hand waving everything. You used to say that I should criticize Trump more because it would show that I was being serious and arguing in good faith (paraphrase). Why I am supposed to assume good faith on the part of people who support all the things I mentioned above. Why am I supposed to assume good faith on your part when you are more harsh on me for not criticizing Trump than you are yourself in criticizing those on the left who expound awful views? Is that not what you requested of me? Are you getting the point yet? In a thread where the median opinion is that Donald Trump is a fascist who will try to serve a third term as president I'm supposed to take the same or more time criticizing him instead of that nutty belief itself. It's a silly thing to ask for from the one conservative in the thread. I have criticized him a lot over the years, all it got was demands that I do it more. meanwhile, people here have lost their minds. I am not attributing you those positions, those are Trumps position and given that Trump has a very obvious policy of loyalty over competency, whatever he says becomes the Republican position. My point on immigration was not that you shouldn't want something done, it is that you have no idea if it is actually working, or how much it is costing because you have a liar in chief feeding you (obviously) wrong shit on everything. If he was an actual businessman, actually trying to improve the country he would be tracking true information so that he could make the best decisions. This is not happening on anything. It is just all about making both sides mad so he can get the most attention. I'm glad you think he should not accept a bribe. Do you think there should be consequences for doing it? If not, then why wouldn't he and all future presidents (even ones from the bad guys) do the same thing? Why is helping Argentina good when they are taking business directly from American farmers? What benefit does it have for America? Why is that good and USAID to starving people is bad? What exactly do you like? Our countries economic policy is now to find new markets that are not the US, to sell and buy. We are not the only ones. I mean there are things he has done that I agree with, but those are the ones that go against his message and often are flip flopped multiple times in the process. Has the government actually shrunk under Trump? The budget sure has not. The revenue taken in sure has. It is more annoyance that hatred, a guy who claims for years and berates everyone for not being like him and then can't even make the one day effort to go to the biggest protest in US history. Which even if it is not going to do anything would be the greatest source of recruiting likeminded, frustrated people for his "activism" ever. It is also how he supports horrible fake socialists like Madruo because of the branding. Which is what the Republicans are becoming, you are supporting them because they say they are conservatives, but they are not. They do what benefits themselves personally and then pretend it is conservatism or to fight the dems. It is also extremely short sighted, because what Trump is doing in destroying your rules and norms is absolutely going to be taken advantage of by the other side. The people are going to demand it. Who is going to be standing at the end is anyones guess but it is not going to be good for the American people no matter if its American Putin or Maduro that is left standing. Did you bother reading the 16 point of fascism? Trump and his MAGA group hit the first first 14 and point 15,16 do not seem that far off. Sorry for third post in a row but did not want to combine any of these. I won't rehash it all now but I have said before that I think our system is more resilient to the type of threat Trump brings to the system than the one the Democrats bring. Trump pushes boundaries, but so do Dems. But dems also have the entire apparatus of the state on their side that makes governing for a Republican so much more difficult. The democrat party has had an on-again off-again relationship with the Constitution since at least Woodrow Wilson. No reason to think their newfound commitment to it is at all sincere. I cannot fathom the mental gymnastics that lead one to this conclusion. The way american conservatives have brainbroken themselves is truly something that needs to be studied.
It's breathtaking really.
The system where Trump is ignoring courts, shitting all over the constitution, deploying troops to cities, arresting citizens with no due process, trampling free speech by banning reporters from Pentagon and the White house, oppenly accepting bribes and selling pardons, but yeah, the system is more resilient to that then *checks notes* Biden trying to forgive student loans debt...
Really hope Mamdani can pull it off, he's going to be facing shit from both sides of the isle and I'm honestly worried about his personal safety given the insane rhetoric coming from the right.
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I think the cynical twisting of reality is really impersonated in KKKaroline Leavitt.
That woman is fucking scary.
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On November 06 2025 21:07 Jankisa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2025 12:40 Luolis wrote:
The way american conservatives have brainbroken themselves is truly something that needs to be studied. It's breathtaking really.
On November 06 2025 21:07 Jankisa wrote:
The system where Trump is ignoring courts, shitting all over the constitution, deploying troops to cities, arresting citizens with no due process, trampling free speech by banning reporters from Pentagon and the White house,
there does not have to be a "due process" to arrest a citizen. To be extreme, if a police officer witnesses a citizen commit a crime the police officer can arrest the citizen without a "due process". In more subtle cases a citizen can be arrested for all kinds of reasons. Due process is a constitutional amendment; it is not a requirement for arrest.
i think what you might be trying to say is that people are getting deported with "due process". Perhaps this is the intent of your statement? In that case, i'll link you to my previous post that had the Obama "we are a nation of immigrants and we're also a nation of laws" speech. Obama deported millions with ~80% with no court hearing process.
Should the supreme court rules against the "fentanyl emergency" tariffs then Trump will comply.
A pretty sizable portion of the American conservatives I know think Trump is going way over the top. Do Conservatives want a better deal with Canada? Yes, they do. Do they think making up a fentanyl emergency to invoke haphazard tariffs is the right way to go about it? No, they do not. Free Trade was the big conservative idea for decades.
In my estimation, American conservatives and American liberals are equally "brain broken". meh. Such is the state of the human condition. React to what you see in front of you ... and go from there. Inflated , hyperbolic, reaching claims will only blur your vision of reality.
America and its citizens offer me greater economic opportunities than any other country on earth. May God Bless America along with each and every one of its citizens.
Taking this back to the NYC election, I hope Mamdani does a great job as Mayor and I hope NYC becomes a better place to live for the working poor.
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On November 06 2025 12:24 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2025 01:38 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2025 11:04 Introvert wrote:On November 05 2025 10:44 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2025 10:03 Introvert wrote:On November 05 2025 00:37 Billyboy wrote:On November 04 2025 22:51 Simberto wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:@introvert “We have no inflation,” President Donald Trump said in his “60 Minutes” interview Sunday evening. “Our groceries are down.” You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so? What a crazy world. The strategy seems to be to go full-on 1984 doublethink. It is insane to watch from the outside. On November 04 2025 23:05 Introvert wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:@introvert “We have no inflation,” President Donald Trump said in his “60 Minutes” interview Sunday evening. “Our groceries are down.” You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so? What a crazy world. Huh? Why are you asking me about this? No, I don't like lying but people are inured to Trump's... mis-statements. Besides, dems are too busy shutting down the government and arguing about their various issues of concern to talk much about prices. It's no wonder their image is still in the toilet. We'll have to see if they improve on 2024 margins in elections tonight, if they don't... that's yikes. Maybe then they will learn something. But winning will probably hide their problems. Might even elect as AG the guy who wished his opponent's children were shot and killed, so everyone is off their rocker atm On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. The hope is that at some point the not stupid Republicans will go "Holy shit it is an embarrassment and absolutely terrible for our country that we have a compulsive lying, dumb, narcissistic, nepo baby who openly takes bribes leading out party, this is bad thing." Hell you do not even need to vote Dem, you could just join the Republicans and against Trump and try to pry your party out of the stupidest era. I can not understand how you Americans treat politics like team sports and support your parties guy no matter how clearly incompetent he is. It is also incredibly stupid that what is "winning" to people seems to be beating the other party and not making the country better. Your country is on the fast track to becoming a shit hole and you are there cheering for it because you get to beat the dems. It is so painful to watch. Hard as it may be for you to believe, I do on the whole think Republican policy positions are better for the country than Democrat ones. You have no idea what I say to people on "my side" since there aren't any of them here. It is interesting how you and many other posters continue to think this is just about making sure "my team" wins, as if I couldn't have good reasons for preferring it. You'd hope that people who spend hours upon hours lecturing GH on being a team player might grasp this but I guess it's too complicated. + Show Spoiler +On November 05 2025 02:42 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. I mean, trying might help? In a more generalised sense. Many people want their ‘team’ to win, of course. If one is losing though, so long as the game is played in the right spirit, as it were that goes a distance. Outside these particular walls, sure it might be different. Within them, I would wager that getting Republicans to go ‘GOP’ bad isn’t a particular aspiration. It would be conservatives having their own red lines, and acting accordingly. Something like that anyway, some self-regulation. I mean I must have made similar posts on this theme at least 10 times prior. So expanding much is a bit redundant. You can collectively do that, and have a slightly more civil wider discourse, or not. Wider conservatism can’t have civil discourse with those who disagree with that creed if it reflexively defends everything the God King does, even the stuff that contravenes their ostensible principles. The natural conclusion becomes that conservatives don’t care about stated principles when it suits, so why should I care when they’re invoked against something I want? Or indeed just want to be ruled by a belligerent Orange King (us Norn Irish can understand the appeal) It’s not necessarily about building bridges across the aisle, it’s that self-policing exists internally. The wider left aren’t exactly great at the former either. But they do tend to criticise their own more. As I said recently, I don't see the need to spent so much time trashing Trump around here for a few reasons. First, there's no one to actually have a discussion with. Yes, tariffs are bad. Glad we agree! Now what? Second, I recall having this conversation every so often, including with you. But then I watch people support murder in public, or voting for a man who fantasized about wanting his opponents children shot, and I realize there isn't really that much to discuss. The pushback on those posts is incredibly limited. You've given me crap before for not criticizing Trump more and then when someone is gunned down in the street you shrugged. The level of self-debasement I'd have to put myself through to appeal to such people is not worth it. And finally, as I said above, I still think that yes, Democrats are worse on basically every metric imaginable. Why I would focus on orange man bad to appease a bunch of murder fanatics who believe all their opponents are closet fascists is going to have to be explained. I actually do get it, I like in a 95% conservative place, but still most of them think Trump is a moron. My point, which I stated already, is not that you vote Dem. But you should be like, we need to get this moron off the top of our ticket and stop running our country. I can't believe that you honestly think a guy who doesn't understand percentages is the right guy to broker trade deals. Especially when it is clear that he is making them based on who sucks up the most. I can barely believe you want tariffs, since no fiscal conservative I have ever met thought they were a good idea before Trump started talking about them. But that aside, this guy is the one who is going to use them properly to make America stronger? The reason the Ontario ad pissed him off so much was because it is true and many Republicans love Reagan. That was a conservative government who made them as well. Like I get you want something done about immigration, and something dramatic. But do you know how much this is costing? And how much it is actually working? Are you even getting more out than in? You are going to trust this guy to tell you real information? When he just flat lies about inflation (I mean everything always), but what he says about how the immigration is going is true? Like are you really that gullible? You can not trust any of the information this government spews, it is all to make them look good and they don't even bother hiding it and you cheer them for tricking you. It's lunacy. If a Dem accepted a multi hundred million dollar plane from a foreign government would you be OK with it? Of course not because you know that there are strings attached and those strings are not in Americas interest, they are in the other country who gave the bribe. But Trump taking them is good? He is taking tons! Maybe you think bailing out Argentina is a good deal after you gift wrapped them all of China Soy bean sales, for reasons. But I can't imagine you think doing it again and then buying a whole shit ton of their cattle to fuck your own farmers was good? Are you a protectionist with tariffs or what? So many were for Trump because he would not tart wars, was a man of peace. How is that working out? What is going on with Venezuela? WTF is that costing? No where near any sort of ROI on the tiny couple of drug boats they sunk. Hows that blanced budget coming? What I'm getting at, and there is way more examples, is that Trump is a populist liar. He has told you he is a conservative and you believed it. He is clearly not one, and only interested in attention and wealth for himself. He is comically stupid, and the lies are not remotely smart and change by the week. The ask isn't that you vote Dem, or become a socialist. It is that you be a conservative, hold those values and hold your own party accountable. Not be a useful idiot for the MAGA ideocracy because they wear your jersey. That is actually exactly the same thing that was asked of GH. Stop pretending that Maduro is actually fighting capitalists from his billion dollar palace. Start actually trying to make the Dem party better. Hasn't "primary the bad dems" been said to him 1000 times. There is no irony, just logical consistency. You might not be used to that given that what Trump tells you is good changes by the week. edit: Also to your comment to wombat. How often were people called fascists before Trump? Could it not be possible (even likely) that people do not think that conservatives are fascists, but rather they the think Trump and his group are fascists? Have you even bothered to read what a fascist is and does? It is Trump, he hits like almost every point. + Show Spoiler +1. Powerful, often exclusionary, populist nationalism centered on cult of a redemptive, “infallible”
leader who never admits mistakes.
2. Political power derived from questioning reality, endorsing myth and rage, and promoting lies.
3. Fixation with perceived national decline, humiliation, or victimhood.
4. White Replacement “Theory” used to show that democratic ideals of freedom and equality are a threat.
Oppose any initiatives or institutions that are racially, ethnically, or religiously harmonious.
5. Disdain for human rights while seeking purity and cleansing for those they define as part of the nation.
6. Identification of “enemies”/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Imprison and/or murder opposition and minority
group leaders.
7. Supremacy of the military and embrace of paramilitarism in an uneasy, but effective
collaboration with traditional elites. Fascists arm people and justify and glorify violence as “redemptive”.
8. Rampant sexism.
9. Control of mass media and undermining “truth”.
10. Obsession with national security, crime and punishment, and fostering a sense of the nation under attack.
11. Religion and government are intertwined.
12. Corporate power is protected and labor power is suppressed.
13. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts not aligned with the fascist narrative.
14. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Loyalty to the leader is paramount and often more important than competence.
15. Fraudulent elections and creation of a one-party state.
16. Often seeking to expand territory through armed conflict.
Well I didn't vote for him so I did my part to "get him off the ticket" if that's what you want. Again, you have no idea what is said elsewhere. I have repeatedly said the tariffs are bad, I think they are actually his biggest mistake so far. They a counter-productive at home and they make rallying our allies against adversaries that much more difficult. I wouldn't even tarriff the Europeans! There are other ways of getting them to pay for their own defense. What's happening with immigration is the natural counter reaction. You have to have rules, and Biden spent four years ignoring them, and now enforcing them is going to hurt. It's always a tough question of how strictly to you start enforcing rules once a pattern of breaking them has emerged. and now some people who previously wouldn't have been deported now will be. probably should have considered that when dems spent years denying there was even anything wrong. Of course Trump shouldn't accept the plane. I don't mind helping Argentina. Trump's foreign policy has been his best aspect so far (tariffs excluded). Dem weak FP as usual is awful. You seem to be attributing to me a lot of positions I have never offered about Trump? Like again, no Trump doesn't care about a balanced budget, but if dems got their way they'd blow everything out as their projected tax revenue never lived up to expectations, and it would be used to support tons of government growth that I fundamentally disagree with. Again, and I know you have a special hatred for GH, but you have to realize I am thinking in similar terms. Yes, Trump sucks. Yes, I wish it were a different Republican. No, banging on about it here does nothing. Which leads to... On November 05 2025 10:46 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2025 10:03 Introvert wrote:On November 05 2025 00:37 Billyboy wrote:On November 04 2025 22:51 Simberto wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:@introvert “We have no inflation,” President Donald Trump said in his “60 Minutes” interview Sunday evening. “Our groceries are down.” You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so? What a crazy world. The strategy seems to be to go full-on 1984 doublethink. It is insane to watch from the outside. On November 04 2025 23:05 Introvert wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:@introvert “We have no inflation,” President Donald Trump said in his “60 Minutes” interview Sunday evening. “Our groceries are down.” You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so? What a crazy world. Huh? Why are you asking me about this? No, I don't like lying but people are inured to Trump's... mis-statements. Besides, dems are too busy shutting down the government and arguing about their various issues of concern to talk much about prices. It's no wonder their image is still in the toilet. We'll have to see if they improve on 2024 margins in elections tonight, if they don't... that's yikes. Maybe then they will learn something. But winning will probably hide their problems. Might even elect as AG the guy who wished his opponent's children were shot and killed, so everyone is off their rocker atm On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. The hope is that at some point the not stupid Republicans will go "Holy shit it is an embarrassment and absolutely terrible for our country that we have a compulsive lying, dumb, narcissistic, nepo baby who openly takes bribes leading out party, this is bad thing." Hell you do not even need to vote Dem, you could just join the Republicans and against Trump and try to pry your party out of the stupidest era. I can not understand how you Americans treat politics like team sports and support your parties guy no matter how clearly incompetent he is. It is also incredibly stupid that what is "winning" to people seems to be beating the other party and not making the country better. Your country is on the fast track to becoming a shit hole and you are there cheering for it because you get to beat the dems. It is so painful to watch. Hard as it may be for you to believe, I do on the whole think Republican policy positions are better for the country than Democrat ones. You have no idea what I say to people on "my side" since there aren't any of them here. It is interesting how you and many other posters continue to think this is just about making sure "my team" wins, as if I couldn't have good reasons for preferring it. You'd hope that people who spend hours upon hours lecturing GH on being a team player might grasp this but I guess it's too complicated. On November 05 2025 02:42 WombaT wrote:On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. I mean, trying might help? In a more generalised sense. Many people want their ‘team’ to win, of course. If one is losing though, so long as the game is played in the right spirit, as it were that goes a distance. Outside these particular walls, sure it might be different. Within them, I would wager that getting Republicans to go ‘GOP’ bad isn’t a particular aspiration. It would be conservatives having their own red lines, and acting accordingly. Something like that anyway, some self-regulation. I mean I must have made similar posts on this theme at least 10 times prior. So expanding much is a bit redundant. You can collectively do that, and have a slightly more civil wider discourse, or not. Wider conservatism can’t have civil discourse with those who disagree with that creed if it reflexively defends everything the God King does, even the stuff that contravenes their ostensible principles. The natural conclusion becomes that conservatives don’t care about stated principles when it suits, so why should I care when they’re invoked against something I want? Or indeed just want to be ruled by a belligerent Orange King (us Norn Irish can understand the appeal) It’s not necessarily about building bridges across the aisle, it’s that self-policing exists internally. The wider left aren’t exactly great at the former either. But they do tend to criticise their own more. As I said recently, I don't see the need to spent so much time trashing Trump around here for a few reasons. First, there's no one to actually have a discussion with. Yes, tariffs are bad. Glad we agree! Now what? Second, I recall having this conversation every so often, including with you. But then I watch people support murder in public, or voting for a man who fantasized about wanting his opponents children shot, and I realize there isn't really that much to discuss. The pushback on those posts is incredibly limited. You've given me crap before for not criticizing Trump more and then when someone is gunned down in the street you shrugged. The level of self-debasement I'd have to put myself through to appeal to such people is not worth it. And finally, as I said above, I still think that yes, Democrats are worse on basically every metric imaginable. Why I would focus on orange man bad to appease a bunch of murder fanatics who believe all their opponents are closet fascists is going to have to be explained. So what? Why does any of that matter? Trump being a complete disgrace of a President can co-exist with those criticisms of other actors. One can also be a conservative while not supporting Trump, it’s emminently possible, indeed I’d argue that Trump is that divorced from general conservative principles that it should be the default. You’re supposed to have principles. Me not giving much of a shit that Charlie Kirk got shot shouldn’t upset the applecart too much. But your cohort evidently doesn’t, so who cares? It’s a battle now, and next time it swings the other way your lot is fucked. Nobody is going to care about catering to the desires of decent conservatives if they’ve spent a cumulative 8 years sucking Donald Trump off and hand waving everything. You used to say that I should criticize Trump more because it would show that I was being serious and arguing in good faith (paraphrase). Why I am supposed to assume good faith on the part of people who support all the things I mentioned above. Why am I supposed to assume good faith on your part when you are more harsh on me for not criticizing Trump than you are yourself in criticizing those on the left who expound awful views? Is that not what you requested of me? Are you getting the point yet? In a thread where the median opinion is that Donald Trump is a fascist who will try to serve a third term as president I'm supposed to take the same or more time criticizing him instead of that nutty belief itself. It's a silly thing to ask for from the one conservative in the thread. I have criticized him a lot over the years, all it got was demands that I do it more. meanwhile, people here have lost their minds. I am not attributing you those positions, those are Trumps position and given that Trump has a very obvious policy of loyalty over competency, whatever he says becomes the Republican position. My point on immigration was not that you shouldn't want something done, it is that you have no idea if it is actually working, or how much it is costing because you have a liar in chief feeding you (obviously) wrong shit on everything. If he was an actual businessman, actually trying to improve the country he would be tracking true information so that he could make the best decisions. This is not happening on anything. It is just all about making both sides mad so he can get the most attention. I'm glad you think he should not accept a bribe. Do you think there should be consequences for doing it? If not, then why wouldn't he and all future presidents (even ones from the bad guys) do the same thing? Why is helping Argentina good when they are taking business directly from American farmers? What benefit does it have for America? Why is that good and USAID to starving people is bad? What exactly do you like? Our countries economic policy is now to find new markets that are not the US, to sell and buy. We are not the only ones. I mean there are things he has done that I agree with, but those are the ones that go against his message and often are flip flopped multiple times in the process. Has the government actually shrunk under Trump? The budget sure has not. The revenue taken in sure has. It is more annoyance that hatred, a guy who claims for years and berates everyone for not being like him and then can't even make the one day effort to go to the biggest protest in US history. Which even if it is not going to do anything would be the greatest source of recruiting likeminded, frustrated people for his "activism" ever. It is also how he supports horrible fake socialists like Madruo because of the branding. Which is what the Republicans are becoming, you are supporting them because they say they are conservatives, but they are not. They do what benefits themselves personally and then pretend it is conservatism or to fight the dems. It is also extremely short sighted, because what Trump is doing in destroying your rules and norms is absolutely going to be taken advantage of by the other side. The people are going to demand it. Who is going to be standing at the end is anyones guess but it is not going to be good for the American people no matter if its American Putin or Maduro that is left standing. Did you bother reading the 16 point of fascism? Trump and his MAGA group hit the first first 14 and point 15,16 do not seem that far off. Sorry for third post in a row but did not want to combine any of these. I won't rehash it all now but I have said before that I think our system is more resilient to the type of threat Trump brings to the system than the one the Democrats bring. Trump pushes boundaries, but so do Dems. But dems also have the entire apparatus of the state on their side that makes governing for a Republican so much more difficult. The democrat party has had an on-again off-again relationship with the Constitution since at least Woodrow Wilson. No reason to think their newfound commitment to it is at all sincere.
There is no way to respond to this because it is a different reality than I live in, and there is nothing that you could send me to show it is true.
What is really strange is that within your party, there are a whole bunch of people living in various realities that really are not all that similar other than that the Dems are way worse. Why and how they are way worse is really different, but that seems enough to bind you all together.
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On November 06 2025 21:56 KT_Elwood wrote:
I think the cynical twisting of reality is really impersonated in KKKaroline Leavitt.
That woman is fucking scary.
i call her "Sweet Caroline"  Trump induced her into calling a world leader "governor". LOL
Leavitt is just an appendage of the power apparatus. She is nothing and is no threat of any kind. Give her the talking bullet points and pull the string behind her back. Talking Barbie can go for an hour. Ms Leavitt is clear evidence that Women say the darndest things.
If you want to blend in with Americans in the north east ... call her "sweet Caroline". it gets Yankees fans and Red Sox fans going.
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On November 06 2025 12:21 Introvert wrote:
For example at the moment the right is having a mini-moment trying to push away the scrawny toad that is Fuentes.
I dont think you can do it anymore, as in push out just Fuentes. If you do it, it will fracture conservatives rather than get rid of Fuentes.
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On November 06 2025 22:22 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2025 12:24 Introvert wrote:On November 06 2025 01:38 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2025 11:04 Introvert wrote:On November 05 2025 10:44 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2025 10:03 Introvert wrote:On November 05 2025 00:37 Billyboy wrote:On November 04 2025 22:51 Simberto wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:@introvert “We have no inflation,” President Donald Trump said in his “60 Minutes” interview Sunday evening. “Our groceries are down.” You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so? What a crazy world. The strategy seems to be to go full-on 1984 doublethink. It is insane to watch from the outside. On November 04 2025 23:05 Introvert wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:@introvert “We have no inflation,” President Donald Trump said in his “60 Minutes” interview Sunday evening. “Our groceries are down.” You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so? What a crazy world. Huh? Why are you asking me about this? No, I don't like lying but people are inured to Trump's... mis-statements. Besides, dems are too busy shutting down the government and arguing about their various issues of concern to talk much about prices. It's no wonder their image is still in the toilet. We'll have to see if they improve on 2024 margins in elections tonight, if they don't... that's yikes. Maybe then they will learn something. But winning will probably hide their problems. Might even elect as AG the guy who wished his opponent's children were shot and killed, so everyone is off their rocker atm On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. The hope is that at some point the not stupid Republicans will go "Holy shit it is an embarrassment and absolutely terrible for our country that we have a compulsive lying, dumb, narcissistic, nepo baby who openly takes bribes leading out party, this is bad thing." Hell you do not even need to vote Dem, you could just join the Republicans and against Trump and try to pry your party out of the stupidest era. I can not understand how you Americans treat politics like team sports and support your parties guy no matter how clearly incompetent he is. It is also incredibly stupid that what is "winning" to people seems to be beating the other party and not making the country better. Your country is on the fast track to becoming a shit hole and you are there cheering for it because you get to beat the dems. It is so painful to watch. Hard as it may be for you to believe, I do on the whole think Republican policy positions are better for the country than Democrat ones. You have no idea what I say to people on "my side" since there aren't any of them here. It is interesting how you and many other posters continue to think this is just about making sure "my team" wins, as if I couldn't have good reasons for preferring it. You'd hope that people who spend hours upon hours lecturing GH on being a team player might grasp this but I guess it's too complicated. + Show Spoiler +On November 05 2025 02:42 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. I mean, trying might help? In a more generalised sense. Many people want their ‘team’ to win, of course. If one is losing though, so long as the game is played in the right spirit, as it were that goes a distance. Outside these particular walls, sure it might be different. Within them, I would wager that getting Republicans to go ‘GOP’ bad isn’t a particular aspiration. It would be conservatives having their own red lines, and acting accordingly. Something like that anyway, some self-regulation. I mean I must have made similar posts on this theme at least 10 times prior. So expanding much is a bit redundant. You can collectively do that, and have a slightly more civil wider discourse, or not. Wider conservatism can’t have civil discourse with those who disagree with that creed if it reflexively defends everything the God King does, even the stuff that contravenes their ostensible principles. The natural conclusion becomes that conservatives don’t care about stated principles when it suits, so why should I care when they’re invoked against something I want? Or indeed just want to be ruled by a belligerent Orange King (us Norn Irish can understand the appeal) It’s not necessarily about building bridges across the aisle, it’s that self-policing exists internally. The wider left aren’t exactly great at the former either. But they do tend to criticise their own more. As I said recently, I don't see the need to spent so much time trashing Trump around here for a few reasons. First, there's no one to actually have a discussion with. Yes, tariffs are bad. Glad we agree! Now what? Second, I recall having this conversation every so often, including with you. But then I watch people support murder in public, or voting for a man who fantasized about wanting his opponents children shot, and I realize there isn't really that much to discuss. The pushback on those posts is incredibly limited. You've given me crap before for not criticizing Trump more and then when someone is gunned down in the street you shrugged. The level of self-debasement I'd have to put myself through to appeal to such people is not worth it. And finally, as I said above, I still think that yes, Democrats are worse on basically every metric imaginable. Why I would focus on orange man bad to appease a bunch of murder fanatics who believe all their opponents are closet fascists is going to have to be explained. I actually do get it, I like in a 95% conservative place, but still most of them think Trump is a moron. My point, which I stated already, is not that you vote Dem. But you should be like, we need to get this moron off the top of our ticket and stop running our country. I can't believe that you honestly think a guy who doesn't understand percentages is the right guy to broker trade deals. Especially when it is clear that he is making them based on who sucks up the most. I can barely believe you want tariffs, since no fiscal conservative I have ever met thought they were a good idea before Trump started talking about them. But that aside, this guy is the one who is going to use them properly to make America stronger? The reason the Ontario ad pissed him off so much was because it is true and many Republicans love Reagan. That was a conservative government who made them as well. Like I get you want something done about immigration, and something dramatic. But do you know how much this is costing? And how much it is actually working? Are you even getting more out than in? You are going to trust this guy to tell you real information? When he just flat lies about inflation (I mean everything always), but what he says about how the immigration is going is true? Like are you really that gullible? You can not trust any of the information this government spews, it is all to make them look good and they don't even bother hiding it and you cheer them for tricking you. It's lunacy. If a Dem accepted a multi hundred million dollar plane from a foreign government would you be OK with it? Of course not because you know that there are strings attached and those strings are not in Americas interest, they are in the other country who gave the bribe. But Trump taking them is good? He is taking tons! Maybe you think bailing out Argentina is a good deal after you gift wrapped them all of China Soy bean sales, for reasons. But I can't imagine you think doing it again and then buying a whole shit ton of their cattle to fuck your own farmers was good? Are you a protectionist with tariffs or what? So many were for Trump because he would not tart wars, was a man of peace. How is that working out? What is going on with Venezuela? WTF is that costing? No where near any sort of ROI on the tiny couple of drug boats they sunk. Hows that blanced budget coming? What I'm getting at, and there is way more examples, is that Trump is a populist liar. He has told you he is a conservative and you believed it. He is clearly not one, and only interested in attention and wealth for himself. He is comically stupid, and the lies are not remotely smart and change by the week. The ask isn't that you vote Dem, or become a socialist. It is that you be a conservative, hold those values and hold your own party accountable. Not be a useful idiot for the MAGA ideocracy because they wear your jersey. That is actually exactly the same thing that was asked of GH. Stop pretending that Maduro is actually fighting capitalists from his billion dollar palace. Start actually trying to make the Dem party better. Hasn't "primary the bad dems" been said to him 1000 times. There is no irony, just logical consistency. You might not be used to that given that what Trump tells you is good changes by the week. edit: Also to your comment to wombat. How often were people called fascists before Trump? Could it not be possible (even likely) that people do not think that conservatives are fascists, but rather they the think Trump and his group are fascists? Have you even bothered to read what a fascist is and does? It is Trump, he hits like almost every point. + Show Spoiler +1. Powerful, often exclusionary, populist nationalism centered on cult of a redemptive, “infallible”
leader who never admits mistakes.
2. Political power derived from questioning reality, endorsing myth and rage, and promoting lies.
3. Fixation with perceived national decline, humiliation, or victimhood.
4. White Replacement “Theory” used to show that democratic ideals of freedom and equality are a threat.
Oppose any initiatives or institutions that are racially, ethnically, or religiously harmonious.
5. Disdain for human rights while seeking purity and cleansing for those they define as part of the nation.
6. Identification of “enemies”/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Imprison and/or murder opposition and minority
group leaders.
7. Supremacy of the military and embrace of paramilitarism in an uneasy, but effective
collaboration with traditional elites. Fascists arm people and justify and glorify violence as “redemptive”.
8. Rampant sexism.
9. Control of mass media and undermining “truth”.
10. Obsession with national security, crime and punishment, and fostering a sense of the nation under attack.
11. Religion and government are intertwined.
12. Corporate power is protected and labor power is suppressed.
13. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts not aligned with the fascist narrative.
14. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Loyalty to the leader is paramount and often more important than competence.
15. Fraudulent elections and creation of a one-party state.
16. Often seeking to expand territory through armed conflict.
Well I didn't vote for him so I did my part to "get him off the ticket" if that's what you want. Again, you have no idea what is said elsewhere. I have repeatedly said the tariffs are bad, I think they are actually his biggest mistake so far. They a counter-productive at home and they make rallying our allies against adversaries that much more difficult. I wouldn't even tarriff the Europeans! There are other ways of getting them to pay for their own defense. What's happening with immigration is the natural counter reaction. You have to have rules, and Biden spent four years ignoring them, and now enforcing them is going to hurt. It's always a tough question of how strictly to you start enforcing rules once a pattern of breaking them has emerged. and now some people who previously wouldn't have been deported now will be. probably should have considered that when dems spent years denying there was even anything wrong. Of course Trump shouldn't accept the plane. I don't mind helping Argentina. Trump's foreign policy has been his best aspect so far (tariffs excluded). Dem weak FP as usual is awful. You seem to be attributing to me a lot of positions I have never offered about Trump? Like again, no Trump doesn't care about a balanced budget, but if dems got their way they'd blow everything out as their projected tax revenue never lived up to expectations, and it would be used to support tons of government growth that I fundamentally disagree with. Again, and I know you have a special hatred for GH, but you have to realize I am thinking in similar terms. Yes, Trump sucks. Yes, I wish it were a different Republican. No, banging on about it here does nothing. Which leads to... On November 05 2025 10:46 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2025 10:03 Introvert wrote:On November 05 2025 00:37 Billyboy wrote:On November 04 2025 22:51 Simberto wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:@introvert “We have no inflation,” President Donald Trump said in his “60 Minutes” interview Sunday evening. “Our groceries are down.” You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so? What a crazy world. The strategy seems to be to go full-on 1984 doublethink. It is insane to watch from the outside. On November 04 2025 23:05 Introvert wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:@introvert “We have no inflation,” President Donald Trump said in his “60 Minutes” interview Sunday evening. “Our groceries are down.” You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so? What a crazy world. Huh? Why are you asking me about this? No, I don't like lying but people are inured to Trump's... mis-statements. Besides, dems are too busy shutting down the government and arguing about their various issues of concern to talk much about prices. It's no wonder their image is still in the toilet. We'll have to see if they improve on 2024 margins in elections tonight, if they don't... that's yikes. Maybe then they will learn something. But winning will probably hide their problems. Might even elect as AG the guy who wished his opponent's children were shot and killed, so everyone is off their rocker atm On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. The hope is that at some point the not stupid Republicans will go "Holy shit it is an embarrassment and absolutely terrible for our country that we have a compulsive lying, dumb, narcissistic, nepo baby who openly takes bribes leading out party, this is bad thing." Hell you do not even need to vote Dem, you could just join the Republicans and against Trump and try to pry your party out of the stupidest era. I can not understand how you Americans treat politics like team sports and support your parties guy no matter how clearly incompetent he is. It is also incredibly stupid that what is "winning" to people seems to be beating the other party and not making the country better. Your country is on the fast track to becoming a shit hole and you are there cheering for it because you get to beat the dems. It is so painful to watch. Hard as it may be for you to believe, I do on the whole think Republican policy positions are better for the country than Democrat ones. You have no idea what I say to people on "my side" since there aren't any of them here. It is interesting how you and many other posters continue to think this is just about making sure "my team" wins, as if I couldn't have good reasons for preferring it. You'd hope that people who spend hours upon hours lecturing GH on being a team player might grasp this but I guess it's too complicated. On November 05 2025 02:42 WombaT wrote:On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. I mean, trying might help? In a more generalised sense. Many people want their ‘team’ to win, of course. If one is losing though, so long as the game is played in the right spirit, as it were that goes a distance. Outside these particular walls, sure it might be different. Within them, I would wager that getting Republicans to go ‘GOP’ bad isn’t a particular aspiration. It would be conservatives having their own red lines, and acting accordingly. Something like that anyway, some self-regulation. I mean I must have made similar posts on this theme at least 10 times prior. So expanding much is a bit redundant. You can collectively do that, and have a slightly more civil wider discourse, or not. Wider conservatism can’t have civil discourse with those who disagree with that creed if it reflexively defends everything the God King does, even the stuff that contravenes their ostensible principles. The natural conclusion becomes that conservatives don’t care about stated principles when it suits, so why should I care when they’re invoked against something I want? Or indeed just want to be ruled by a belligerent Orange King (us Norn Irish can understand the appeal) It’s not necessarily about building bridges across the aisle, it’s that self-policing exists internally. The wider left aren’t exactly great at the former either. But they do tend to criticise their own more. As I said recently, I don't see the need to spent so much time trashing Trump around here for a few reasons. First, there's no one to actually have a discussion with. Yes, tariffs are bad. Glad we agree! Now what? Second, I recall having this conversation every so often, including with you. But then I watch people support murder in public, or voting for a man who fantasized about wanting his opponents children shot, and I realize there isn't really that much to discuss. The pushback on those posts is incredibly limited. You've given me crap before for not criticizing Trump more and then when someone is gunned down in the street you shrugged. The level of self-debasement I'd have to put myself through to appeal to such people is not worth it. And finally, as I said above, I still think that yes, Democrats are worse on basically every metric imaginable. Why I would focus on orange man bad to appease a bunch of murder fanatics who believe all their opponents are closet fascists is going to have to be explained. So what? Why does any of that matter? Trump being a complete disgrace of a President can co-exist with those criticisms of other actors. One can also be a conservative while not supporting Trump, it’s emminently possible, indeed I’d argue that Trump is that divorced from general conservative principles that it should be the default. You’re supposed to have principles. Me not giving much of a shit that Charlie Kirk got shot shouldn’t upset the applecart too much. But your cohort evidently doesn’t, so who cares? It’s a battle now, and next time it swings the other way your lot is fucked. Nobody is going to care about catering to the desires of decent conservatives if they’ve spent a cumulative 8 years sucking Donald Trump off and hand waving everything. You used to say that I should criticize Trump more because it would show that I was being serious and arguing in good faith (paraphrase). Why I am supposed to assume good faith on the part of people who support all the things I mentioned above. Why am I supposed to assume good faith on your part when you are more harsh on me for not criticizing Trump than you are yourself in criticizing those on the left who expound awful views? Is that not what you requested of me? Are you getting the point yet? In a thread where the median opinion is that Donald Trump is a fascist who will try to serve a third term as president I'm supposed to take the same or more time criticizing him instead of that nutty belief itself. It's a silly thing to ask for from the one conservative in the thread. I have criticized him a lot over the years, all it got was demands that I do it more. meanwhile, people here have lost their minds. I am not attributing you those positions, those are Trumps position and given that Trump has a very obvious policy of loyalty over competency, whatever he says becomes the Republican position. My point on immigration was not that you shouldn't want something done, it is that you have no idea if it is actually working, or how much it is costing because you have a liar in chief feeding you (obviously) wrong shit on everything. If he was an actual businessman, actually trying to improve the country he would be tracking true information so that he could make the best decisions. This is not happening on anything. It is just all about making both sides mad so he can get the most attention. I'm glad you think he should not accept a bribe. Do you think there should be consequences for doing it? If not, then why wouldn't he and all future presidents (even ones from the bad guys) do the same thing? Why is helping Argentina good when they are taking business directly from American farmers? What benefit does it have for America? Why is that good and USAID to starving people is bad? What exactly do you like? Our countries economic policy is now to find new markets that are not the US, to sell and buy. We are not the only ones. I mean there are things he has done that I agree with, but those are the ones that go against his message and often are flip flopped multiple times in the process. Has the government actually shrunk under Trump? The budget sure has not. The revenue taken in sure has. It is more annoyance that hatred, a guy who claims for years and berates everyone for not being like him and then can't even make the one day effort to go to the biggest protest in US history. Which even if it is not going to do anything would be the greatest source of recruiting likeminded, frustrated people for his "activism" ever. It is also how he supports horrible fake socialists like Madruo because of the branding. Which is what the Republicans are becoming, you are supporting them because they say they are conservatives, but they are not. They do what benefits themselves personally and then pretend it is conservatism or to fight the dems. It is also extremely short sighted, because what Trump is doing in destroying your rules and norms is absolutely going to be taken advantage of by the other side. The people are going to demand it. Who is going to be standing at the end is anyones guess but it is not going to be good for the American people no matter if its American Putin or Maduro that is left standing. Did you bother reading the 16 point of fascism? Trump and his MAGA group hit the first first 14 and point 15,16 do not seem that far off. Sorry for third post in a row but did not want to combine any of these. I won't rehash it all now but I have said before that I think our system is more resilient to the type of threat Trump brings to the system than the one the Democrats bring. Trump pushes boundaries, but so do Dems. But dems also have the entire apparatus of the state on their side that makes governing for a Republican so much more difficult. The democrat party has had an on-again off-again relationship with the Constitution since at least Woodrow Wilson. No reason to think their newfound commitment to it is at all sincere. There is no way to respond to this because it is a different reality than I live in, and there is nothing that you could send me to show it is true. What is really strange is that within your party, there are a whole bunch of people living in various realities that really are not all that similar other than that the Dems are way worse. Why and how they are way worse is really different, but that seems enough to bind you all together.
I agree with your first statement, I think dems have worked themselves into such a lather that they way overstate what is happening.
On November 06 2025 22:46 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2025 12:21 Introvert wrote:
For example at the moment the right is having a mini-moment trying to push away the scrawny toad that is Fuentes. I dont think you can do it anymore, as in push out just Fuentes. If you do it, it will fracture conservatives rather than get rid of Fuentes.
I think you can, his influence is overstated but what's happening now is trying to keep it that way. It's not dealing with some juggernaut, it's suffocating bad ideas before they take root, to mix metaphors
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On November 06 2025 23:18 Introvert wrote:
I agree with your first statement, I think dems have worked themselves into such a lather that they way overstate what is happening.
i think this is commonly known as Trump Derangement Syndrome. i think people suffering from TDS need to lower their screen times and once they do this they'll be fine.
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Dide is sending the army into states for fabricated reasons and tore down the White House to explicitly tell the US people: your old ways are over, get ready to bend over.
TDS is a "problem" for people who care about other people, those who don't need things to happen to themselves before they gain a shred of empathy, but yeah, call it TDS and shrug it off like it's always done. Let's see what'll happen in the coming years. The forecast doesn't look too great
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On November 06 2025 23:18 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2025 22:22 Billyboy wrote:On November 06 2025 12:24 Introvert wrote:On November 06 2025 01:38 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2025 11:04 Introvert wrote:On November 05 2025 10:44 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2025 10:03 Introvert wrote:On November 05 2025 00:37 Billyboy wrote:On November 04 2025 22:51 Simberto wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:
@introvert [quote]
You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so?
What a crazy world. The strategy seems to be to go full-on 1984 doublethink. It is insane to watch from the outside. On November 04 2025 23:05 Introvert wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:
@introvert [quote]
You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so?
What a crazy world. Huh? Why are you asking me about this? No, I don't like lying but people are inured to Trump's... mis-statements. Besides, dems are too busy shutting down the government and arguing about their various issues of concern to talk much about prices. It's no wonder their image is still in the toilet. We'll have to see if they improve on 2024 margins in elections tonight, if they don't... that's yikes. Maybe then they will learn something. But winning will probably hide their problems. Might even elect as AG the guy who wished his opponent's children were shot and killed, so everyone is off their rocker atm On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. The hope is that at some point the not stupid Republicans will go "Holy shit it is an embarrassment and absolutely terrible for our country that we have a compulsive lying, dumb, narcissistic, nepo baby who openly takes bribes leading out party, this is bad thing." Hell you do not even need to vote Dem, you could just join the Republicans and against Trump and try to pry your party out of the stupidest era. I can not understand how you Americans treat politics like team sports and support your parties guy no matter how clearly incompetent he is. It is also incredibly stupid that what is "winning" to people seems to be beating the other party and not making the country better. Your country is on the fast track to becoming a shit hole and you are there cheering for it because you get to beat the dems. It is so painful to watch. Hard as it may be for you to believe, I do on the whole think Republican policy positions are better for the country than Democrat ones. You have no idea what I say to people on "my side" since there aren't any of them here. It is interesting how you and many other posters continue to think this is just about making sure "my team" wins, as if I couldn't have good reasons for preferring it. You'd hope that people who spend hours upon hours lecturing GH on being a team player might grasp this but I guess it's too complicated. + Show Spoiler +On November 05 2025 02:42 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. I mean, trying might help? In a more generalised sense. Many people want their ‘team’ to win, of course. If one is losing though, so long as the game is played in the right spirit, as it were that goes a distance. Outside these particular walls, sure it might be different. Within them, I would wager that getting Republicans to go ‘GOP’ bad isn’t a particular aspiration. It would be conservatives having their own red lines, and acting accordingly. Something like that anyway, some self-regulation. I mean I must have made similar posts on this theme at least 10 times prior. So expanding much is a bit redundant. You can collectively do that, and have a slightly more civil wider discourse, or not. Wider conservatism can’t have civil discourse with those who disagree with that creed if it reflexively defends everything the God King does, even the stuff that contravenes their ostensible principles. The natural conclusion becomes that conservatives don’t care about stated principles when it suits, so why should I care when they’re invoked against something I want? Or indeed just want to be ruled by a belligerent Orange King (us Norn Irish can understand the appeal) It’s not necessarily about building bridges across the aisle, it’s that self-policing exists internally. The wider left aren’t exactly great at the former either. But they do tend to criticise their own more. As I said recently, I don't see the need to spent so much time trashing Trump around here for a few reasons. First, there's no one to actually have a discussion with. Yes, tariffs are bad. Glad we agree! Now what? Second, I recall having this conversation every so often, including with you. But then I watch people support murder in public, or voting for a man who fantasized about wanting his opponents children shot, and I realize there isn't really that much to discuss. The pushback on those posts is incredibly limited. You've given me crap before for not criticizing Trump more and then when someone is gunned down in the street you shrugged. The level of self-debasement I'd have to put myself through to appeal to such people is not worth it. And finally, as I said above, I still think that yes, Democrats are worse on basically every metric imaginable. Why I would focus on orange man bad to appease a bunch of murder fanatics who believe all their opponents are closet fascists is going to have to be explained. I actually do get it, I like in a 95% conservative place, but still most of them think Trump is a moron. My point, which I stated already, is not that you vote Dem. But you should be like, we need to get this moron off the top of our ticket and stop running our country. I can't believe that you honestly think a guy who doesn't understand percentages is the right guy to broker trade deals. Especially when it is clear that he is making them based on who sucks up the most. I can barely believe you want tariffs, since no fiscal conservative I have ever met thought they were a good idea before Trump started talking about them. But that aside, this guy is the one who is going to use them properly to make America stronger? The reason the Ontario ad pissed him off so much was because it is true and many Republicans love Reagan. That was a conservative government who made them as well. Like I get you want something done about immigration, and something dramatic. But do you know how much this is costing? And how much it is actually working? Are you even getting more out than in? You are going to trust this guy to tell you real information? When he just flat lies about inflation (I mean everything always), but what he says about how the immigration is going is true? Like are you really that gullible? You can not trust any of the information this government spews, it is all to make them look good and they don't even bother hiding it and you cheer them for tricking you. It's lunacy. If a Dem accepted a multi hundred million dollar plane from a foreign government would you be OK with it? Of course not because you know that there are strings attached and those strings are not in Americas interest, they are in the other country who gave the bribe. But Trump taking them is good? He is taking tons! Maybe you think bailing out Argentina is a good deal after you gift wrapped them all of China Soy bean sales, for reasons. But I can't imagine you think doing it again and then buying a whole shit ton of their cattle to fuck your own farmers was good? Are you a protectionist with tariffs or what? So many were for Trump because he would not tart wars, was a man of peace. How is that working out? What is going on with Venezuela? WTF is that costing? No where near any sort of ROI on the tiny couple of drug boats they sunk. Hows that blanced budget coming? What I'm getting at, and there is way more examples, is that Trump is a populist liar. He has told you he is a conservative and you believed it. He is clearly not one, and only interested in attention and wealth for himself. He is comically stupid, and the lies are not remotely smart and change by the week. The ask isn't that you vote Dem, or become a socialist. It is that you be a conservative, hold those values and hold your own party accountable. Not be a useful idiot for the MAGA ideocracy because they wear your jersey. That is actually exactly the same thing that was asked of GH. Stop pretending that Maduro is actually fighting capitalists from his billion dollar palace. Start actually trying to make the Dem party better. Hasn't "primary the bad dems" been said to him 1000 times. There is no irony, just logical consistency. You might not be used to that given that what Trump tells you is good changes by the week. edit: Also to your comment to wombat. How often were people called fascists before Trump? Could it not be possible (even likely) that people do not think that conservatives are fascists, but rather they the think Trump and his group are fascists? Have you even bothered to read what a fascist is and does? It is Trump, he hits like almost every point. + Show Spoiler +1. Powerful, often exclusionary, populist nationalism centered on cult of a redemptive, “infallible”
leader who never admits mistakes.
2. Political power derived from questioning reality, endorsing myth and rage, and promoting lies.
3. Fixation with perceived national decline, humiliation, or victimhood.
4. White Replacement “Theory” used to show that democratic ideals of freedom and equality are a threat.
Oppose any initiatives or institutions that are racially, ethnically, or religiously harmonious.
5. Disdain for human rights while seeking purity and cleansing for those they define as part of the nation.
6. Identification of “enemies”/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Imprison and/or murder opposition and minority
group leaders.
7. Supremacy of the military and embrace of paramilitarism in an uneasy, but effective
collaboration with traditional elites. Fascists arm people and justify and glorify violence as “redemptive”.
8. Rampant sexism.
9. Control of mass media and undermining “truth”.
10. Obsession with national security, crime and punishment, and fostering a sense of the nation under attack.
11. Religion and government are intertwined.
12. Corporate power is protected and labor power is suppressed.
13. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts not aligned with the fascist narrative.
14. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Loyalty to the leader is paramount and often more important than competence.
15. Fraudulent elections and creation of a one-party state.
16. Often seeking to expand territory through armed conflict.
Well I didn't vote for him so I did my part to "get him off the ticket" if that's what you want. Again, you have no idea what is said elsewhere. I have repeatedly said the tariffs are bad, I think they are actually his biggest mistake so far. They a counter-productive at home and they make rallying our allies against adversaries that much more difficult. I wouldn't even tarriff the Europeans! There are other ways of getting them to pay for their own defense. What's happening with immigration is the natural counter reaction. You have to have rules, and Biden spent four years ignoring them, and now enforcing them is going to hurt. It's always a tough question of how strictly to you start enforcing rules once a pattern of breaking them has emerged. and now some people who previously wouldn't have been deported now will be. probably should have considered that when dems spent years denying there was even anything wrong. Of course Trump shouldn't accept the plane. I don't mind helping Argentina. Trump's foreign policy has been his best aspect so far (tariffs excluded). Dem weak FP as usual is awful. You seem to be attributing to me a lot of positions I have never offered about Trump? Like again, no Trump doesn't care about a balanced budget, but if dems got their way they'd blow everything out as their projected tax revenue never lived up to expectations, and it would be used to support tons of government growth that I fundamentally disagree with. Again, and I know you have a special hatred for GH, but you have to realize I am thinking in similar terms. Yes, Trump sucks. Yes, I wish it were a different Republican. No, banging on about it here does nothing. Which leads to... On November 05 2025 10:46 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2025 10:03 Introvert wrote:On November 05 2025 00:37 Billyboy wrote:On November 04 2025 22:51 Simberto wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:
@introvert [quote]
You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so?
What a crazy world. The strategy seems to be to go full-on 1984 doublethink. It is insane to watch from the outside. On November 04 2025 23:05 Introvert wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:
@introvert [quote]
You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so?
What a crazy world. Huh? Why are you asking me about this? No, I don't like lying but people are inured to Trump's... mis-statements. Besides, dems are too busy shutting down the government and arguing about their various issues of concern to talk much about prices. It's no wonder their image is still in the toilet. We'll have to see if they improve on 2024 margins in elections tonight, if they don't... that's yikes. Maybe then they will learn something. But winning will probably hide their problems. Might even elect as AG the guy who wished his opponent's children were shot and killed, so everyone is off their rocker atm On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. The hope is that at some point the not stupid Republicans will go "Holy shit it is an embarrassment and absolutely terrible for our country that we have a compulsive lying, dumb, narcissistic, nepo baby who openly takes bribes leading out party, this is bad thing." Hell you do not even need to vote Dem, you could just join the Republicans and against Trump and try to pry your party out of the stupidest era. I can not understand how you Americans treat politics like team sports and support your parties guy no matter how clearly incompetent he is. It is also incredibly stupid that what is "winning" to people seems to be beating the other party and not making the country better. Your country is on the fast track to becoming a shit hole and you are there cheering for it because you get to beat the dems. It is so painful to watch. Hard as it may be for you to believe, I do on the whole think Republican policy positions are better for the country than Democrat ones. You have no idea what I say to people on "my side" since there aren't any of them here. It is interesting how you and many other posters continue to think this is just about making sure "my team" wins, as if I couldn't have good reasons for preferring it. You'd hope that people who spend hours upon hours lecturing GH on being a team player might grasp this but I guess it's too complicated. On November 05 2025 02:42 WombaT wrote:On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. I mean, trying might help? In a more generalised sense. Many people want their ‘team’ to win, of course. If one is losing though, so long as the game is played in the right spirit, as it were that goes a distance. Outside these particular walls, sure it might be different. Within them, I would wager that getting Republicans to go ‘GOP’ bad isn’t a particular aspiration. It would be conservatives having their own red lines, and acting accordingly. Something like that anyway, some self-regulation. I mean I must have made similar posts on this theme at least 10 times prior. So expanding much is a bit redundant. You can collectively do that, and have a slightly more civil wider discourse, or not. Wider conservatism can’t have civil discourse with those who disagree with that creed if it reflexively defends everything the God King does, even the stuff that contravenes their ostensible principles. The natural conclusion becomes that conservatives don’t care about stated principles when it suits, so why should I care when they’re invoked against something I want? Or indeed just want to be ruled by a belligerent Orange King (us Norn Irish can understand the appeal) It’s not necessarily about building bridges across the aisle, it’s that self-policing exists internally. The wider left aren’t exactly great at the former either. But they do tend to criticise their own more. As I said recently, I don't see the need to spent so much time trashing Trump around here for a few reasons. First, there's no one to actually have a discussion with. Yes, tariffs are bad. Glad we agree! Now what? Second, I recall having this conversation every so often, including with you. But then I watch people support murder in public, or voting for a man who fantasized about wanting his opponents children shot, and I realize there isn't really that much to discuss. The pushback on those posts is incredibly limited. You've given me crap before for not criticizing Trump more and then when someone is gunned down in the street you shrugged. The level of self-debasement I'd have to put myself through to appeal to such people is not worth it. And finally, as I said above, I still think that yes, Democrats are worse on basically every metric imaginable. Why I would focus on orange man bad to appease a bunch of murder fanatics who believe all their opponents are closet fascists is going to have to be explained. So what? Why does any of that matter? Trump being a complete disgrace of a President can co-exist with those criticisms of other actors. One can also be a conservative while not supporting Trump, it’s emminently possible, indeed I’d argue that Trump is that divorced from general conservative principles that it should be the default. You’re supposed to have principles. Me not giving much of a shit that Charlie Kirk got shot shouldn’t upset the applecart too much. But your cohort evidently doesn’t, so who cares? It’s a battle now, and next time it swings the other way your lot is fucked. Nobody is going to care about catering to the desires of decent conservatives if they’ve spent a cumulative 8 years sucking Donald Trump off and hand waving everything. You used to say that I should criticize Trump more because it would show that I was being serious and arguing in good faith (paraphrase). Why I am supposed to assume good faith on the part of people who support all the things I mentioned above. Why am I supposed to assume good faith on your part when you are more harsh on me for not criticizing Trump than you are yourself in criticizing those on the left who expound awful views? Is that not what you requested of me? Are you getting the point yet? In a thread where the median opinion is that Donald Trump is a fascist who will try to serve a third term as president I'm supposed to take the same or more time criticizing him instead of that nutty belief itself. It's a silly thing to ask for from the one conservative in the thread. I have criticized him a lot over the years, all it got was demands that I do it more. meanwhile, people here have lost their minds. I am not attributing you those positions, those are Trumps position and given that Trump has a very obvious policy of loyalty over competency, whatever he says becomes the Republican position. My point on immigration was not that you shouldn't want something done, it is that you have no idea if it is actually working, or how much it is costing because you have a liar in chief feeding you (obviously) wrong shit on everything. If he was an actual businessman, actually trying to improve the country he would be tracking true information so that he could make the best decisions. This is not happening on anything. It is just all about making both sides mad so he can get the most attention. I'm glad you think he should not accept a bribe. Do you think there should be consequences for doing it? If not, then why wouldn't he and all future presidents (even ones from the bad guys) do the same thing? Why is helping Argentina good when they are taking business directly from American farmers? What benefit does it have for America? Why is that good and USAID to starving people is bad? What exactly do you like? Our countries economic policy is now to find new markets that are not the US, to sell and buy. We are not the only ones. I mean there are things he has done that I agree with, but those are the ones that go against his message and often are flip flopped multiple times in the process. Has the government actually shrunk under Trump? The budget sure has not. The revenue taken in sure has. It is more annoyance that hatred, a guy who claims for years and berates everyone for not being like him and then can't even make the one day effort to go to the biggest protest in US history. Which even if it is not going to do anything would be the greatest source of recruiting likeminded, frustrated people for his "activism" ever. It is also how he supports horrible fake socialists like Madruo because of the branding. Which is what the Republicans are becoming, you are supporting them because they say they are conservatives, but they are not. They do what benefits themselves personally and then pretend it is conservatism or to fight the dems. It is also extremely short sighted, because what Trump is doing in destroying your rules and norms is absolutely going to be taken advantage of by the other side. The people are going to demand it. Who is going to be standing at the end is anyones guess but it is not going to be good for the American people no matter if its American Putin or Maduro that is left standing. Did you bother reading the 16 point of fascism? Trump and his MAGA group hit the first first 14 and point 15,16 do not seem that far off. Sorry for third post in a row but did not want to combine any of these. I won't rehash it all now but I have said before that I think our system is more resilient to the type of threat Trump brings to the system than the one the Democrats bring. Trump pushes boundaries, but so do Dems. But dems also have the entire apparatus of the state on their side that makes governing for a Republican so much more difficult. The democrat party has had an on-again off-again relationship with the Constitution since at least Woodrow Wilson. No reason to think their newfound commitment to it is at all sincere. There is no way to respond to this because it is a different reality than I live in, and there is nothing that you could send me to show it is true. What is really strange is that within your party, there are a whole bunch of people living in various realities that really are not all that similar other than that the Dems are way worse. Why and how they are way worse is really different, but that seems enough to bind you all together. I agree with your first statement, I think dems have worked themselves into such a lather that they way overstate what is happening. Show nested quote +On November 06 2025 22:46 Razyda wrote:On November 06 2025 12:21 Introvert wrote:
For example at the moment the right is having a mini-moment trying to push away the scrawny toad that is Fuentes. I dont think you can do it anymore, as in push out just Fuentes. If you do it, it will fracture conservatives rather than get rid of Fuentes. I think you can, his influence is overstated but what's happening now is trying to keep it that way. It's not dealing with some juggernaut, it's suffocating bad ideas before they take root, to mix metaphors
It is strange though that everyone who disagrees with you is a Dem. Like Mcain, Romney, Cheeny on our thread Falling, I would consider them all conservatives, and they all live in my reality not yours. In fact globally there is a very small percentage that agree with your reality. All of those people consume your news sources. And those folks often also believe in things like flat earth, lizard people, pedophile rings that drink children's blood, Jewish cabals that are both super powerful that they control everything, but also allowing Trump, Musk. Zuckerberg, Bezos and so on get super rich and have tons of power, that aliens are hear and have leftist values. And all sorts of other wild things.
Like I could be wrong, and your reality could be right, it just seems super duper unlikely.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 06 2025 12:21 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2025 00:16 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2025 11:04 Introvert wrote:On November 05 2025 10:44 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2025 10:03 Introvert wrote:On November 05 2025 00:37 Billyboy wrote:On November 04 2025 22:51 Simberto wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:@introvert “We have no inflation,” President Donald Trump said in his “60 Minutes” interview Sunday evening. “Our groceries are down.” You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so? What a crazy world. The strategy seems to be to go full-on 1984 doublethink. It is insane to watch from the outside. On November 04 2025 23:05 Introvert wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:@introvert “We have no inflation,” President Donald Trump said in his “60 Minutes” interview Sunday evening. “Our groceries are down.” You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so? What a crazy world. Huh? Why are you asking me about this? No, I don't like lying but people are inured to Trump's... mis-statements. Besides, dems are too busy shutting down the government and arguing about their various issues of concern to talk much about prices. It's no wonder their image is still in the toilet. We'll have to see if they improve on 2024 margins in elections tonight, if they don't... that's yikes. Maybe then they will learn something. But winning will probably hide their problems. Might even elect as AG the guy who wished his opponent's children were shot and killed, so everyone is off their rocker atm On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. The hope is that at some point the not stupid Republicans will go "Holy shit it is an embarrassment and absolutely terrible for our country that we have a compulsive lying, dumb, narcissistic, nepo baby who openly takes bribes leading out party, this is bad thing." Hell you do not even need to vote Dem, you could just join the Republicans and against Trump and try to pry your party out of the stupidest era. I can not understand how you Americans treat politics like team sports and support your parties guy no matter how clearly incompetent he is. It is also incredibly stupid that what is "winning" to people seems to be beating the other party and not making the country better. Your country is on the fast track to becoming a shit hole and you are there cheering for it because you get to beat the dems. It is so painful to watch. Hard as it may be for you to believe, I do on the whole think Republican policy positions are better for the country than Democrat ones. You have no idea what I say to people on "my side" since there aren't any of them here. It is interesting how you and many other posters continue to think this is just about making sure "my team" wins, as if I couldn't have good reasons for preferring it. You'd hope that people who spend hours upon hours lecturing GH on being a team player might grasp this but I guess it's too complicated. + Show Spoiler +On November 05 2025 02:42 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. I mean, trying might help? In a more generalised sense. Many people want their ‘team’ to win, of course. If one is losing though, so long as the game is played in the right spirit, as it were that goes a distance. Outside these particular walls, sure it might be different. Within them, I would wager that getting Republicans to go ‘GOP’ bad isn’t a particular aspiration. It would be conservatives having their own red lines, and acting accordingly. Something like that anyway, some self-regulation. I mean I must have made similar posts on this theme at least 10 times prior. So expanding much is a bit redundant. You can collectively do that, and have a slightly more civil wider discourse, or not. Wider conservatism can’t have civil discourse with those who disagree with that creed if it reflexively defends everything the God King does, even the stuff that contravenes their ostensible principles. The natural conclusion becomes that conservatives don’t care about stated principles when it suits, so why should I care when they’re invoked against something I want? Or indeed just want to be ruled by a belligerent Orange King (us Norn Irish can understand the appeal) It’s not necessarily about building bridges across the aisle, it’s that self-policing exists internally. The wider left aren’t exactly great at the former either. But they do tend to criticise their own more. As I said recently, I don't see the need to spent so much time trashing Trump around here for a few reasons. First, there's no one to actually have a discussion with. Yes, tariffs are bad. Glad we agree! Now what? Second, I recall having this conversation every so often, including with you. But then I watch people support murder in public, or voting for a man who fantasized about wanting his opponents children shot, and I realize there isn't really that much to discuss. The pushback on those posts is incredibly limited. You've given me crap before for not criticizing Trump more and then when someone is gunned down in the street you shrugged. The level of self-debasement I'd have to put myself through to appeal to such people is not worth it. And finally, as I said above, I still think that yes, Democrats are worse on basically every metric imaginable. Why I would focus on orange man bad to appease a bunch of murder fanatics who believe all their opponents are closet fascists is going to have to be explained. I actually do get it, I like in a 95% conservative place, but still most of them think Trump is a moron. My point, which I stated already, is not that you vote Dem. But you should be like, we need to get this moron off the top of our ticket and stop running our country. I can't believe that you honestly think a guy who doesn't understand percentages is the right guy to broker trade deals. Especially when it is clear that he is making them based on who sucks up the most. I can barely believe you want tariffs, since no fiscal conservative I have ever met thought they were a good idea before Trump started talking about them. But that aside, this guy is the one who is going to use them properly to make America stronger? The reason the Ontario ad pissed him off so much was because it is true and many Republicans love Reagan. That was a conservative government who made them as well. Like I get you want something done about immigration, and something dramatic. But do you know how much this is costing? And how much it is actually working? Are you even getting more out than in? You are going to trust this guy to tell you real information? When he just flat lies about inflation (I mean everything always), but what he says about how the immigration is going is true? Like are you really that gullible? You can not trust any of the information this government spews, it is all to make them look good and they don't even bother hiding it and you cheer them for tricking you. It's lunacy. If a Dem accepted a multi hundred million dollar plane from a foreign government would you be OK with it? Of course not because you know that there are strings attached and those strings are not in Americas interest, they are in the other country who gave the bribe. But Trump taking them is good? He is taking tons! Maybe you think bailing out Argentina is a good deal after you gift wrapped them all of China Soy bean sales, for reasons. But I can't imagine you think doing it again and then buying a whole shit ton of their cattle to fuck your own farmers was good? Are you a protectionist with tariffs or what? So many were for Trump because he would not tart wars, was a man of peace. How is that working out? What is going on with Venezuela? WTF is that costing? No where near any sort of ROI on the tiny couple of drug boats they sunk. Hows that blanced budget coming? What I'm getting at, and there is way more examples, is that Trump is a populist liar. He has told you he is a conservative and you believed it. He is clearly not one, and only interested in attention and wealth for himself. He is comically stupid, and the lies are not remotely smart and change by the week. The ask isn't that you vote Dem, or become a socialist. It is that you be a conservative, hold those values and hold your own party accountable. Not be a useful idiot for the MAGA ideocracy because they wear your jersey. That is actually exactly the same thing that was asked of GH. Stop pretending that Maduro is actually fighting capitalists from his billion dollar palace. Start actually trying to make the Dem party better. Hasn't "primary the bad dems" been said to him 1000 times. There is no irony, just logical consistency. You might not be used to that given that what Trump tells you is good changes by the week. edit: Also to your comment to wombat. How often were people called fascists before Trump? Could it not be possible (even likely) that people do not think that conservatives are fascists, but rather they the think Trump and his group are fascists? Have you even bothered to read what a fascist is and does? It is Trump, he hits like almost every point. + Show Spoiler +1. Powerful, often exclusionary, populist nationalism centered on cult of a redemptive, “infallible”
leader who never admits mistakes.
2. Political power derived from questioning reality, endorsing myth and rage, and promoting lies.
3. Fixation with perceived national decline, humiliation, or victimhood.
4. White Replacement “Theory” used to show that democratic ideals of freedom and equality are a threat.
Oppose any initiatives or institutions that are racially, ethnically, or religiously harmonious.
5. Disdain for human rights while seeking purity and cleansing for those they define as part of the nation.
6. Identification of “enemies”/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Imprison and/or murder opposition and minority
group leaders.
7. Supremacy of the military and embrace of paramilitarism in an uneasy, but effective
collaboration with traditional elites. Fascists arm people and justify and glorify violence as “redemptive”.
8. Rampant sexism.
9. Control of mass media and undermining “truth”.
10. Obsession with national security, crime and punishment, and fostering a sense of the nation under attack.
11. Religion and government are intertwined.
12. Corporate power is protected and labor power is suppressed.
13. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts not aligned with the fascist narrative.
14. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Loyalty to the leader is paramount and often more important than competence.
15. Fraudulent elections and creation of a one-party state.
16. Often seeking to expand territory through armed conflict.
Well I didn't vote for him so I did my part to "get him off the ticket" if that's what you want. Again, you have no idea what is said elsewhere. I have repeatedly said the tariffs are bad, I think they are actually his biggest mistake so far. They a counter-productive at home and they make rallying our allies against adversaries that much more difficult. I wouldn't even tarriff the Europeans! There are other ways of getting them to pay for their own defense. What's happening with immigration is the natural counter reaction. You have to have rules, and Biden spent four years ignoring them, and now enforcing them is going to hurt. It's always a tough question of how strictly to you start enforcing rules once a pattern of breaking them has emerged. and now some people who previously wouldn't have been deported now will be. probably should have considered that when dems spent years denying there was even anything wrong. Of course Trump shouldn't accept the plane. I don't mind helping Argentina. Trump's foreign policy has been his best aspect so far (tariffs excluded). Dem weak FP as usual is awful. You seem to be attributing to me a lot of positions I have never offered about Trump? Like again, no Trump doesn't care about a balanced budget, but if dems got their way they'd blow everything out as their projected tax revenue never lived up to expectations, and it would be used to support tons of government growth that I fundamentally disagree with. Again, and I know you have a special hatred for GH, but you have to realize I am thinking in similar terms. Yes, Trump sucks. Yes, I wish it were a different Republican. No, banging on about it here does nothing. Which leads to... On November 05 2025 10:46 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2025 10:03 Introvert wrote:On November 05 2025 00:37 Billyboy wrote:On November 04 2025 22:51 Simberto wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:@introvert “We have no inflation,” President Donald Trump said in his “60 Minutes” interview Sunday evening. “Our groceries are down.” You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so? What a crazy world. The strategy seems to be to go full-on 1984 doublethink. It is insane to watch from the outside. On November 04 2025 23:05 Introvert wrote:On November 04 2025 22:28 Billyboy wrote:@introvert “We have no inflation,” President Donald Trump said in his “60 Minutes” interview Sunday evening. “Our groceries are down.” You OK with him just blatantly lying? And do you think Republicans will not notice that prices are up because Trump said so? What a crazy world. Huh? Why are you asking me about this? No, I don't like lying but people are inured to Trump's... mis-statements. Besides, dems are too busy shutting down the government and arguing about their various issues of concern to talk much about prices. It's no wonder their image is still in the toilet. We'll have to see if they improve on 2024 margins in elections tonight, if they don't... that's yikes. Maybe then they will learn something. But winning will probably hide their problems. Might even elect as AG the guy who wished his opponent's children were shot and killed, so everyone is off their rocker atm On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. The hope is that at some point the not stupid Republicans will go "Holy shit it is an embarrassment and absolutely terrible for our country that we have a compulsive lying, dumb, narcissistic, nepo baby who openly takes bribes leading out party, this is bad thing." Hell you do not even need to vote Dem, you could just join the Republicans and against Trump and try to pry your party out of the stupidest era. I can not understand how you Americans treat politics like team sports and support your parties guy no matter how clearly incompetent he is. It is also incredibly stupid that what is "winning" to people seems to be beating the other party and not making the country better. Your country is on the fast track to becoming a shit hole and you are there cheering for it because you get to beat the dems. It is so painful to watch. Hard as it may be for you to believe, I do on the whole think Republican policy positions are better for the country than Democrat ones. You have no idea what I say to people on "my side" since there aren't any of them here. It is interesting how you and many other posters continue to think this is just about making sure "my team" wins, as if I couldn't have good reasons for preferring it. You'd hope that people who spend hours upon hours lecturing GH on being a team player might grasp this but I guess it's too complicated. On November 05 2025 02:42 WombaT wrote:On November 04 2025 23:44 Introvert wrote:
Breaking news: conservative thinks Democrats a worse party than Republicans. More at 11. What people want is endless "Republican bad" to the point where they tie themselves into logical knots repeatedly. Thr shutdown is just the latest example. The only "acceptable" answer is that it's the GOP's fault even though it only happened because of senate Democrats. There is nothing I could even say at this point that would be accepted. I mean, trying might help? In a more generalised sense. Many people want their ‘team’ to win, of course. If one is losing though, so long as the game is played in the right spirit, as it were that goes a distance. Outside these particular walls, sure it might be different. Within them, I would wager that getting Republicans to go ‘GOP’ bad isn’t a particular aspiration. It would be conservatives having their own red lines, and acting accordingly. Something like that anyway, some self-regulation. I mean I must have made similar posts on this theme at least 10 times prior. So expanding much is a bit redundant. You can collectively do that, and have a slightly more civil wider discourse, or not. Wider conservatism can’t have civil discourse with those who disagree with that creed if it reflexively defends everything the God King does, even the stuff that contravenes their ostensible principles. The natural conclusion becomes that conservatives don’t care about stated principles when it suits, so why should I care when they’re invoked against something I want? Or indeed just want to be ruled by a belligerent Orange King (us Norn Irish can understand the appeal) It’s not necessarily about building bridges across the aisle, it’s that self-policing exists internally. The wider left aren’t exactly great at the former either. But they do tend to criticise their own more. As I said recently, I don't see the need to spent so much time trashing Trump around here for a few reasons. First, there's no one to actually have a discussion with. Yes, tariffs are bad. Glad we agree! Now what? Second, I recall having this conversation every so often, including with you. But then I watch people support murder in public, or voting for a man who fantasized about wanting his opponents children shot, and I realize there isn't really that much to discuss. The pushback on those posts is incredibly limited. You've given me crap before for not criticizing Trump more and then when someone is gunned down in the street you shrugged. The level of self-debasement I'd have to put myself through to appeal to such people is not worth it. And finally, as I said above, I still think that yes, Democrats are worse on basically every metric imaginable. Why I would focus on orange man bad to appease a bunch of murder fanatics who believe all their opponents are closet fascists is going to have to be explained. So what? Why does any of that matter? Trump being a complete disgrace of a President can co-exist with those criticisms of other actors. One can also be a conservative while not supporting Trump, it’s emminently possible, indeed I’d argue that Trump is that divorced from general conservative principles that it should be the default. You’re supposed to have principles. Me not giving much of a shit that Charlie Kirk got shot shouldn’t upset the applecart too much. But your cohort evidently doesn’t, so who cares? It’s a battle now, and next time it swings the other way your lot is fucked. Nobody is going to care about catering to the desires of decent conservatives if they’ve spent a cumulative 8 years sucking Donald Trump off and hand waving everything. You used to say that I should criticize Trump more because it would show that I was being serious and arguing in good faith (paraphrase). Why I am supposed to assume good faith on the part of people who support all the things I mentioned above. Why am I supposed to assume good faith on your part when you are more harsh on me for not criticizing Trump than you are yourself in criticizing those on the left who expound awful views? Is that not what you requested of me? Are you getting the point yet? In a thread where the median opinion is that Donald Trump is a fascist who will try to serve a third term as president I'm supposed to take the same or more time criticizing him instead of that nutty belief itself. It's a silly thing to ask for from the one conservative in the thread. I have criticized him a lot over the years, all it got was demands that I do it more. meanwhile, people here have lost their minds. It’s not a particular demand on you, but more generally, apologies if I didn’t stress that. That’s the problem, the more general absence of it in media, online, all over the shop. Which wasn’t the case when he first ran, or early on in his first term. There was plenty of criticism, even from people who were quite strong and visible supporters. One’s criticism of one’s own tribe as it were shouldn’t be contingent on what other people do. And yeah it does show good faith as it demonstrates that on areas you don’t align with the other side on, that you’ll at least police internally as it were. It’s not an imposition to agree, the idea is for some consistency on just those areas of non-alignment. I am pro-choice myself, but I’m probably more sympathetic to the pro-life crowd than many of my general political persuasion. Anyway, within what I’m suggesting, I wouldn’t seek to find agreement with a hypothetical hardcore pro-life person. If, however, hypothetical hardcore pro-life person gave a prominent figure on their side a complete pass on having a fully elective abortion, I’d have to question why, and their bona fides. Extrapolate that out, and pretty across the board and the idea of good faith gets massively eroded. Indeed, I’d say part of the fear of Trump = Fascist dictator comes precisely from that place. ‘We’ cant really do shit right now, and his base seemingly have few red lines they’d drag him over crossing. We’re seeing this a bit in the UK too, your more traditional conservatives are morphing to be more MAGA equivalent. And with that the bridge of ‘agree to disagree’ starts to collapse. And things become rather toxic when it does. Without going too far rn I'd say there is a distinct lack of criticism within tribes at the moment. The only "debates" appear to be purity tests. Sure, part of it depends on what you are looking at. For example at the moment the right is having a mini-moment trying to push away the scrawny toad that is Fuentes. Heritage Foundation (of project 2025 fame) and an influential think tank on the right is having an issue because its president defended Tucker Carlson having that guy on because of "free speech." You might think this is just an online thing but it is a big right-wing org and various Republican politicians are now weighing in. But everyone know that criticizing Trump (who is nothing like Fuentes for the record) has to take a different form. it's not even a really unusual one, the meme about "the king is being misled by his advisers" is a roundabout form of criticism that has existed for centuries at least. So there is some background knowledge required perhaps to get an idea what counts and what is more straightforward vs what is trying to play nice. wrt the left I think one can guess what I think based on posts about the election yesterday.
It’s better than nout.
I think ‘self-policing’ takes two real forms, at least within a de facto 2 party system. The first is more basic ethical stuff. Did an individual commit infractions and thus should be rebuked, or even purged. Could be criminal, could be a non-criminal but immoral act, could be an about-turn on campaign promises made, all that good stuff.
The second is the various constituent parts of the kind of broad coalition necessitated by a 2 party polity, jostling for position and that their needs and wants are being met within the big tent.
The first can exist somewhat independently of the second. I’d argue the broader American left is currently doing a better job here, but miles from a perfect one.
As to the second, I do somewhat agree with you. Tribes don’t massively criticise their own, across the board. However we aren’t dealing with monolithic tribes, but coalitions of them. The left of the Dems won’t slam prominent progressives all that hard, agreed. They’ll criticise the centre and vice-versa.
I think what we observe here with the modern GOP is the centre largely being a non-factor. We’re kinda left with some squabbling between what would have been previous considered the right side of the ledger, and some who are too far right even despite that shift.
As per usual, I be broad brushing, it’s not a completely catch-all observation and exceptions will exist, but it does feel broadly the direction of travel.
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On November 06 2025 23:24 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2025 23:18 Introvert wrote:
I agree with your first statement, I think dems have worked themselves into such a lather that they way overstate what is happening.
i think this is commonly known as Trump Derangement Syndrome. i think people suffering from TDS need to lower their screen times and once they do this they'll be fine.
From my perspective, things aren't being overstated, and the response from Republicans is minimizing and dismissing fair criticism of Trump and his administration. If you want to see concerns that are blown way out of proportion, look at how the right flipped out over Obama's tan suit and preference for grey poupon mustard... those really don't climb to the same level of seriousness as Trump raping people or trying to overthrow the government. If TDS exists, then ODS is a million times worse.
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On November 06 2025 22:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2025 21:07 Jankisa wrote:On November 06 2025 12:40 Luolis wrote:
The way american conservatives have brainbroken themselves is truly something that needs to be studied. It's breathtaking really. Show nested quote +On November 06 2025 21:07 Jankisa wrote:
The system where Trump is ignoring courts, shitting all over the constitution, deploying troops to cities, arresting citizens with no due process, trampling free speech by banning reporters from Pentagon and the White house, there does not have to be a "due process" to arrest a citizen. To be extreme, if a police officer witnesses a citizen commit a crime the police officer can arrest the citizen without a "due process". In more subtle cases a citizen can be arrested for all kinds of reasons. Due process is a constitutional amendment; it is not a requirement for arrest. i think what you might be trying to say is that people are getting deported with "due process". Perhaps this is the intent of your statement? In that case, i'll link you to my previous post that had the Obama "we are a nation of immigrants and we're also a nation of laws" speech. Obama deported millions with ~80% with no court hearing process. Should the supreme court rules against the "fentanyl emergency" tariffs then Trump will comply. A pretty sizable portion of the American conservatives I know think Trump is going way over the top. Do Conservatives want a better deal with Canada? Yes, they do. Do they think making up a fentanyl emergency to invoke haphazard tariffs is the right way to go about it? No, they do not. Free Trade was the big conservative idea for decades. In my estimation, American conservatives and American liberals are equally "brain broken". meh. Such is the state of the human condition. React to what you see in front of you ... and go from there. Inflated , hyperbolic, reaching claims will only blur your vision of reality. America and its citizens offer me greater economic opportunities than any other country on earth. May God Bless America along with each and every one of its citizens. Taking this back to the NYC election, I hope Mamdani does a great job as Mayor and I hope NYC becomes a better place to live for the working poor.
You, from everything I read over the last year or so seem to value capital over people, money over rights, morals and principals, which is fine, but it makes you very incompatible with the way I think and go through life.
I would never go live in USA because despite it giving me the greatest economic opportunities possible I value those much less then my security and peace of mind.
My country is one of the safest in the world, with much, much less repression and police presence then USA has. It's way healthier and if I go sick I won't be bankrupt.
Yes, I give almost 50 % of my gross salary for taxes to pay for that and for this to apply to my fellow citizens and I am happy to do it, I will never complain about the taxes despite the top level of my government being corrupt pieces of shit because I see my taxes going to good all around me.
I find it kind of funny how you underlined ignoring of courts (which is happening across the board, not just when it comes to immigration) and then never addressed it.
When it comes to due process, there are enough cases where US citizens have been held without any charges for more then a day, which is ignoring due process.
There are also other things that you didn't highlight before moving on to first whatabout about Obama and then praise American capitalism such as sending troops into cities and trampling free speech which are, seems to me, a price you are willing to pay so you can end up with more money in the end.
Americans on both sides are brain broken because they have been blindsided into thinking that things that work in the whole rest of the world that makes citizens safer and healthier can't work there, the MAGA folks have that plus the resentments and hatred that will never, ever make me say "bless them" because they are not nice people, and I reserve my blessings for people who are nice.
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Nice? Americans are loud, obnoxious, abrupt and rude. In general, Americans are a giant PITA. I usually get beyond that initial first impression though. And doing so has been very profitable for me.
I like the overall structure of Mamdani's plan. He can go into compromise/diplomacy mode and lower transit by 67% and also raise taxes by far less than his initial proposal to make up the revenue shortfall. $0.90 NYC transit would be great.
Mamdani proposes a 2% increase in income tax for the top 1% of NYC citizens along with a 4.3% increase in corporate tax. He can cut in half those increases and appear to compromise while drastically lowering transit costs for the working poor.
Go Mamdani Go!
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On November 06 2025 22:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2025 21:07 Jankisa wrote:On November 06 2025 12:40 Luolis wrote:
The way american conservatives have brainbroken themselves is truly something that needs to be studied. It's breathtaking really. Show nested quote +On November 06 2025 21:07 Jankisa wrote:
The system where Trump is ignoring courts, shitting all over the constitution, deploying troops to cities, arresting citizens with no due process, trampling free speech by banning reporters from Pentagon and the White house, there does not have to be a "due process" to arrest a citizen. To be extreme, if a police officer witnesses a citizen commit a crime the police officer can arrest the citizen without a "due process". In more subtle cases a citizen can be arrested for all kinds of reasons. Due process is a constitutional amendment; it is not a requirement for arrest. i think what you might be trying to say is that people are getting deported with "due process". Perhaps this is the intent of your statement? In that case, i'll link you to my previous post that had the Obama "we are a nation of immigrants and we're also a nation of laws" speech. Obama deported millions with ~80% with no court hearing process.
These are the requirements during arrest:
Probable cause: Police must have a valid reason to believe that the person has committed a crime. This is often a requirement for the legality of the arrest.
or
Warrant: A warrant is required for an arrest unless an officer witnesses a crime or has probable cause under certain circumstances.
Unfortunately the supreme court basically legalized racial profiling allowing officers to see a brown skin person and use that as probable cause to arrest someone for being undocumented, but outside of that to go into someone's house, car, or private property you need a judicial warrant, which ICE has unbashedly violated. Just this week ICE took a hispanic looking US citizen out of his car, detained him, then ICE agents in full military garb and assault rifles, got in his car and DROVE AWAY WITH HIS (CITIZEN) BABY IN THE CAR. This is the entire point of things like due process, because we have systems in place to correctly identify when crimes are committed and the appropriate actions so that we don't terrorize children and call it a whoopsie.
Identification: Police officers must identify themselves and be clearly identified, often by wearing visible name tags.
Memo of arrest: An arrest memo must be prepared, including the time and date of arrest.
ICE is neither properly identifying themselves, presenting arrest memo, stating the chart, nor reading miranda rights
Use of force: Police are trained in the use of force, but it must be used appropriately.
ICE is currently under a class action lawsuit for and in federal hearings for blatantly misusing force
Should the supreme court rules against the "fentanyl emergency" tariffs then Trump will comply.
A pretty sizable portion of the American conservatives I know think Trump is going way over the top. Do Conservatives want a better deal with Canada? Yes, they do. Do they think making up a fentanyl emergency to invoke haphazard tariffs is the right way to go about it? No, they do not. Free Trade was the big conservative idea for decades.
I doubt he will, he has ignored court orders several times over. The fact that we are even having to go to the supreme court over this is insane, the power of purse commerce explicitly rests with congress and this is a cut and dry example of executive overreach.
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On November 07 2025 01:59 Jankisa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2025 22:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 06 2025 21:07 Jankisa wrote:On November 06 2025 12:40 Luolis wrote:
The way american conservatives have brainbroken themselves is truly something that needs to be studied. It's breathtaking really. On November 06 2025 21:07 Jankisa wrote:
The system where Trump is ignoring courts, shitting all over the constitution, deploying troops to cities, arresting citizens with no due process, trampling free speech by banning reporters from Pentagon and the White house, there does not have to be a "due process" to arrest a citizen. To be extreme, if a police officer witnesses a citizen commit a crime the police officer can arrest the citizen without a "due process". In more subtle cases a citizen can be arrested for all kinds of reasons. Due process is a constitutional amendment; it is not a requirement for arrest. i think what you might be trying to say is that people are getting deported with "due process". Perhaps this is the intent of your statement? In that case, i'll link you to my previous post that had the Obama "we are a nation of immigrants and we're also a nation of laws" speech. Obama deported millions with ~80% with no court hearing process. Should the supreme court rules against the "fentanyl emergency" tariffs then Trump will comply. A pretty sizable portion of the American conservatives I know think Trump is going way over the top. Do Conservatives want a better deal with Canada? Yes, they do. Do they think making up a fentanyl emergency to invoke haphazard tariffs is the right way to go about it? No, they do not. Free Trade was the big conservative idea for decades. In my estimation, American conservatives and American liberals are equally "brain broken". meh. Such is the state of the human condition. React to what you see in front of you ... and go from there. Inflated , hyperbolic, reaching claims will only blur your vision of reality. America and its citizens offer me greater economic opportunities than any other country on earth. May God Bless America along with each and every one of its citizens. Taking this back to the NYC election, I hope Mamdani does a great job as Mayor and I hope NYC becomes a better place to live for the working poor. You, from everything I read over the last year or so seem to value capital over people, money over rights, morals and principals, which is fine, but it makes you very incompatible with the way I think and go through life. I would never go live in USA because despite it giving me the greatest economic opportunities possible I value those much less then my security and peace of mind. My country is one of the safest in the world, with much, much less repression and police presence then USA has. It's way healthier and if I go sick I won't be bankrupt. Yes, I give almost 50 % of my gross salary for taxes to pay for that and for this to apply to my fellow citizens and I am happy to do it, I will never complain about the taxes despite the top level of my government being corrupt pieces of shit because I see my taxes going to good all around me. I find it kind of funny how you underlined ignoring of courts (which is happening across the board, not just when it comes to immigration) and then never addressed it. When it comes to due process, there are enough cases where US citizens have been held without any charges for more then a day, which is ignoring due process. There are also other things that you didn't highlight before moving on to first whatabout about Obama and then praise American capitalism such as sending troops into cities and trampling free speech which are, seems to me, a price you are willing to pay so you can end up with more money in the end. Americans on both sides are brain broken because they have been blindsided into thinking that things that work in the whole rest of the world that makes citizens safer and healthier can't work there, the MAGA folks have that plus the resentments and hatred that will never, ever make me say "bless them" because they are not nice people, and I reserve my blessings for people who are nice.
As an american, my favorite place i've ever visited was croatia and i hope to retire there one day.
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On November 07 2025 03:17 decafchicken wrote:Show nested quote +
Should the supreme court rules against the "fentanyl emergency" tariffs then Trump will comply.
A pretty sizable portion of the American conservatives I know think Trump is going way over the top. Do Conservatives want a better deal with Canada? Yes, they do. Do they think making up a fentanyl emergency to invoke haphazard tariffs is the right way to go about it? No, they do not. Free Trade was the big conservative idea for decades.
I doubt he will, he has ignored court orders several times over. The fact that we are even having to go to the supreme court over this is insane, the power of purse commerce explicitly rests with congress and this is a cut and dry example of executive overreach.
Yep, it's nucking futz.
"Doubt". Is that an official prediction? I predict Trump complies.
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On November 07 2025 03:17 decafchicken wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2025 22:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 06 2025 21:07 Jankisa wrote:On November 06 2025 12:40 Luolis wrote:
The way american conservatives have brainbroken themselves is truly something that needs to be studied. It's breathtaking really. On November 06 2025 21:07 Jankisa wrote:
The system where Trump is ignoring courts, shitting all over the constitution, deploying troops to cities, arresting citizens with no due process, trampling free speech by banning reporters from Pentagon and the White house, there does not have to be a "due process" to arrest a citizen. To be extreme, if a police officer witnesses a citizen commit a crime the police officer can arrest the citizen without a "due process". In more subtle cases a citizen can be arrested for all kinds of reasons. Due process is a constitutional amendment; it is not a requirement for arrest. i think what you might be trying to say is that people are getting deported with "due process". Perhaps this is the intent of your statement? In that case, i'll link you to my previous post that had the Obama "we are a nation of immigrants and we're also a nation of laws" speech. Obama deported millions with ~80% with no court hearing process. These are the requirements during arrest: Show nested quote +
Probable cause: Police must have a valid reason to believe that the person has committed a crime. This is often a requirement for the legality of the arrest.
or
Warrant: A warrant is required for an arrest unless an officer witnesses a crime or has probable cause under certain circumstances.
Unfortunately the supreme court basically legalized racial profiling allowing officers to see a brown skin person and use that as probable cause to arrest someone for being undocumented, but outside of that to go into someone's house, car, or private property you need a judicial warrant, which ICE has unbashedly violated. Just this week ICE took a hispanic looking US citizen out of his car, detained him, then ICE agents in full military garb and assault rifles, got in his car and DROVE AWAY WITH HIS (CITIZEN) BABY IN THE CAR. This is the entire point of things like due process, because we have systems in place to correctly identify when crimes are committed and the appropriate actions so that we don't terrorize children and call it a whoopsie.
You are learning, but before arrest there's detaining, which can be done with the standard of reasonable suspicion. And can also be done for reasons of scene control and other circumstances that aren't ultimately aiming towards a criminal arrest of the person detained.
I searched your esoteric reference and it seems to be a recent case of a man called Dennis Quinonez? Who had a stolen pistol, and an open warrant. And is accused of attacking feds with rocks and a hammer - so he probably wasn't originally in the car when that happened. And when people get arrested, they don't get arrested with their children. This is the same no matter what inflammatory statements you make about what they look like. If you do something bad, and also have a child, you will be arrested. Your child will not be. Yet thankfully the state will not simply set your 1 year old child immediately free. Put conversely, having children is not a human shield that makes you immune to arrest. To characterize that they "drove away" as though they were carjackers who inadvertently kidnapped a child or something, is just laughable.
On November 07 2025 03:17 decafchicken wrote:Show nested quote +
Identification: Police officers must identify themselves and be clearly identified, often by wearing visible name tags.
Memo of arrest: An arrest memo must be prepared, including the time and date of arrest.
ICE is neither properly identifying themselves, presenting arrest memo, stating the chart, nor reading miranda rights Show nested quote +
Use of force: Police are trained in the use of force, but it must be used appropriately.
ICE is currently under a class action lawsuit for and in federal hearings for blatantly misusing force
Miranda rights apply to criminal arrests. Lack of legal status is not a criminal matter per se. And an arrest memo is not something you show to the person you're arresting to prove you're allowed to arrest them. That's a misunderstanding.
This series of quotes, and the ones above, do not have an obvious reference, do not have a reference provided by you, and return 0 results when string-searched. This makes it difficult to address clearly. To what source are you referring and is it an LLM?
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On November 07 2025 03:11 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Nice? Americans are loud, obnoxious, abrupt and rude. In general, Americans are a giant PITA. I usually get beyond that initial first impression though. And doing so has been very profitable for me.
I like the overall structure of Mamdani's plan. He can go into compromise/diplomacy mode and lower transit by 67% and also raise taxes by far less than his initial proposal to make up the revenue shortfall. $0.90 NYC transit would be great.
Mamdani proposes a 2% increase in income tax for the top 1% of NYC citizens along with a 4.3% increase in corporate tax. He can cut in half those increases and appear to compromise while drastically lowering transit costs for the working poor.
Go Mamdani Go!
Oh, don't get me wrong, for most of my IT career the companies I worked for were American, and in vast majority of cases the people I interacted with, and it's a lot, since my career path started from the very bottom of Level 1 support I got to talk to hundreds and hundreds of very cool, smart and interesting people. Interestingly, the vast majority of ones who started conversations regarding politics were staunch Republicans.
I can honestly say that if not for a few American bosses who recognized my potential I'd be nowhere close to where I am now, however, in the case of my first American boss, one of the reasons I left that company was that I found out he's a big Trump supporter. He offered me 30 % pay bump, and I was already compensated more then well, but this plus my disagreements with the person who was running his company over here made me not even consider it.
The new one is awesome, tho, despite obviously being very rich, he is a very firm anti-Trump guy and his favorite thing to say about politics is "It's not about left or right, it's about haves and have nots".
If you read a few of my posts about my interactions with a Trump loving colleague over there, you can see that I very much have the ability to get over that and talk and have very productive and respectful relationships at work with those guys.
Anyway, I guess my point is that that I do love America and that's the reason why it makes me so sad to see what it's turning in to.
I fear Mamdani's not even going to get a chance, but what kind of gives me hope is that I was similarly pessimistic about the mayor of our capital who has a similar profile, I thought the criminals from the state government and their criminals allies will crush him, but he's on to his second term, he turned the city slowly around, it operates positively and it's been a joy to see.
Hope the same happens with Mamdani.
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EPT
