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On July 23 2018 23:31 xDaunt wrote:
GH -- What do you think about what the ANC has been doing in South Africa over the past few years?
That's going to have to wait until I get through this whole US thing.
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On July 23 2018 23:33 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 23:31 xDaunt wrote:
GH -- What do you think about what the ANC has been doing in South Africa over the past few years? That's going to have to wait until I get through this whole US thing.
The reason why I ask is because I think that it might be informative as to what you're really looking for as it pertains to racial policy in the US.
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On July 23 2018 23:35 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 23:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 23:31 xDaunt wrote:
GH -- What do you think about what the ANC has been doing in South Africa over the past few years? That's going to have to wait until I get through this whole US thing. The reason why I ask is because I think that it might be informative as to what you're really looking for as it pertains to racial policy in the US.
If you're backing me up on this previous point on measurable improvements for Black people relative to white people I'd consider getting into that, but considering how hard this has been (with alleged allies and pretty straightforward facts) I'm not raring to jump into the nuances of African policy with someone who thinks African's screwed up getting colonized, instead of colonizing screwing up African's lives.
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On July 23 2018 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 23:15 iamthedave wrote:On July 23 2018 18:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 17:57 iamthedave wrote:On July 23 2018 14:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 10:20 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 10:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 10:02 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 09:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 09:46 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Yes, they have. Racially designed felon disenfranchisement is still a problem but they've taken steps to codify what actually causes disenfranchisement, rather than leaving it to the good old boys at the local polling station. And that codification has led to white people losing the vote too, which in turn is building support for reform. granting for the moment this narrative is true. How do we measure that? Ok here are some, feel free to all them Fake news but please for once also back up your own claim. Today, far more African-Americans graduate from college – 38 percent – than they did 50 years ago. Legally, African-Americans may live in any community they want – and from Beverly Hills to the Upper East Side, they can and do. Black adults experienced a more significant income increase from 1980 to 2016 – from $28,667 to $39,490 – than any other U.S. demographic group. This, in part, is why there’s now a significant black middle class. In 1965, there were no blacks in the U.S. Senate, nor were there any black governors. And only six members of the House of Representatives were black. By 2015, there was greater representation in some areas (44 House members were black) but little change in others (there were two black senators and one black governor). The share of blacks who have served in a presidential Cabinet, however, has been generally high – even above parity with the population – under administrations in the past two decades. Not to mention the whole lynching not being "that bad" in the 60's the Klan losing much of its power (others have risen of course but not to the overt power that the Klan once had) I mean it was a pretty low bar from the 60's to now. I bet many older black people would be super offended that you think it as bad now. surely you pulled those numbers from somewhere so a link would be appreciated and I'll take a look. I think you may want to take a closer look at some of those segregation numbers as well. Also remember, the request was for "measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's". EDIT: In a bit of a rush and I didn't get to the rest. You may not be aware but representation =/= improvement by nature of shared assigned categories. There were Jewish Nazi's for example. That's not to equate Black representation to Nazi's or anything, but to say that being something doesn't mean you can't perpetuate the most horrific crimes against that group. + Show Spoiler +I'll show you mine, when you show me yours. Otherwise we just go through the same old song and dance. Show me how it has not changed. Prove your assertion.
Otherwise its:
GH 'This is how it is"
Other "No it isn't"
GH "Prove it"
Other "Ok here...."
GH " That all right wing propaganda"
OR
Other "This is how it is"
GH "Sure, Prove it"
Other " OK here....."
GH " That is all right wing propaganda"
So basically anything say everyone needs to simply trust as fact, even though you won't say where you get your news or ever back it up. But any little or big thing another says you need a multi sourced essay of doctoral level to even consider it (this is a joke, you just never consider others points at all).
I wanted to address this part too by pointing to a more traditional measure of success in a capitalistic society, wealth: ![[image loading]](http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2014/12/FT_14.12.11_wealthGap2.png) And for some more historical context, In South Africa, during the atrocities of apartheid, the median black family held about 7 percent of typical white South African family net worth. Today, using Wolff’s analysis, the median African American family holds a mere 1.5 percent of median white American family wealth.Brief explanation of the difference between the two different measures of wealth inequality: New York University Professor Edward Wolff, one of the foremost economists studying wealth inequality, looks at the same Federal Reserve dataset that the Pew researchers used in a recent report he published in the National Bureau of Economic Research (paywall). Wolff points out that the Fed includes consumer durables in its net-worth estimates.
Wolff excludes these consumer durables from his net-worth figures because these assets — everything from automobiles and televisions to furniture and household appliances — cannot be readily converted to cash and their resale value typically far understates their consumption value.
According to Wolff’s calculations, the median black family is actually only worth $1,700 when you deduct these durables. In contrast, the median white family holds $116,800 of wealth using the same accounting methods. Black household wealth, Wolff adds, actually fell during the Great Recession from $6,700 to $1,700. EDIT: May seem like I'm picking on Jimmi so to be fair, this is kinda a thing. Americans, and higher-income whites in particular, vastly overestimate progress toward economic equality between blacks and whites, the psychologists reported Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Americans believe that blacks and whites are more equal today than they truly are on measures of income, wealth, wages and health benefits. And they believe more historical progress has occurred than is the case, suggesting “a profound misperception of and unfounded optimism” regarding racial equality.
“It seems that we’ve convinced ourselves – and by ‘we’ I mean Americans writ large – that racial discrimination is a thing of the past,” said Jennifer Richeson, who was another of the study’s authors, along with Julian Rucker, a doctoral student. “We’ve literally overcome it, so to speak, despite blatant evidence to the contrary.” www.nytimes.com You've shifted the goal posts rather than concede a point your own graphs have demonstrated to be true. No, you've demonstrated you didn't follow the discussion. He wasn't talking about wealth inequality. He said black households make more money. In other words, a measurable improvement from the 60s. The rise of a black middle class, etc. The quote* he pulled from an article about how Black people were left out of progress since the 60's, was only a part of the picture. Which is why I explained how it wasn't a "measurable improvement for Black people relative to white people", which is what I asked for. Pivoting onto your usual talking points doesn't distract from the fact you did the pivot. Racial wealth inequality is not one of my usual talking points, not that it invalidates it if it was. Also, I'm relatively confident that African Americans benefit from access to abortion the same as anyone else, and the potential loss of it under Trump is likely to hit African Americans harder than it will whites. So there's a measurable way things would be better under Clinton. This has nothing to do with the points being made. This is what he said: "Black adults experienced a more significant income increase from 1980 to 2016 – from $28,667 to $39,490 – than any other U.S. demographic group. This, in part, is why there’s now a significant black middle class." You babbled on about the inequality gap in an attempt to ignore what he said rather than directly countering his point. And you talking to anyone about 'not following the discussion' is hilarious. Half the time it's like you're talking to a brick wall and the rest of us are just watching. And you did it again. Try actually reading the post where I addressed it, I linked it to you in that one. Then get back to me.
Is there actually a point? I'm attempting to argue a point with someone who genuinely appears to believe nothing has measurably improved for African Americans since the 1960s.
Improvements in education? Irrelevant.
Developing black middle class? Doesn't matter.
Increased income, even if the wealth gap hasn't closed as much as it needs to? Irrelevant.
What exactly do you consider a 'measurable' improvement? What kind of evidence actually counts to you?
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I wonder why exactly do you think South African policy sais anything about the US... Last i checked a minority of blacks didn't opress the Whites/Others.
And what happens in SA atm is a really nice perfect storm born from total incompetence, corruption and "searching someone to blame/old grudges/reverse racism". Its a shame.
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On July 23 2018 23:40 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 23:15 iamthedave wrote:On July 23 2018 18:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 17:57 iamthedave wrote:On July 23 2018 14:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 10:20 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 10:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 10:02 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 09:49 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
granting for the moment this narrative is true. How do we measure that? Ok here are some, feel free to all them Fake news but please for once also back up your own claim. Today, far more African-Americans graduate from college – 38 percent – than they did 50 years ago. Legally, African-Americans may live in any community they want – and from Beverly Hills to the Upper East Side, they can and do. Black adults experienced a more significant income increase from 1980 to 2016 – from $28,667 to $39,490 – than any other U.S. demographic group. This, in part, is why there’s now a significant black middle class. In 1965, there were no blacks in the U.S. Senate, nor were there any black governors. And only six members of the House of Representatives were black. By 2015, there was greater representation in some areas (44 House members were black) but little change in others (there were two black senators and one black governor). The share of blacks who have served in a presidential Cabinet, however, has been generally high – even above parity with the population – under administrations in the past two decades. Not to mention the whole lynching not being "that bad" in the 60's the Klan losing much of its power (others have risen of course but not to the overt power that the Klan once had) I mean it was a pretty low bar from the 60's to now. I bet many older black people would be super offended that you think it as bad now. surely you pulled those numbers from somewhere so a link would be appreciated and I'll take a look. I think you may want to take a closer look at some of those segregation numbers as well. Also remember, the request was for "measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's". EDIT: In a bit of a rush and I didn't get to the rest. You may not be aware but representation =/= improvement by nature of shared assigned categories. There were Jewish Nazi's for example. That's not to equate Black representation to Nazi's or anything, but to say that being something doesn't mean you can't perpetuate the most horrific crimes against that group. + Show Spoiler +I'll show you mine, when you show me yours. Otherwise we just go through the same old song and dance. Show me how it has not changed. Prove your assertion.
Otherwise its:
GH 'This is how it is"
Other "No it isn't"
GH "Prove it"
Other "Ok here...."
GH " That all right wing propaganda"
OR
Other "This is how it is"
GH "Sure, Prove it"
Other " OK here....."
GH " That is all right wing propaganda"
So basically anything say everyone needs to simply trust as fact, even though you won't say where you get your news or ever back it up. But any little or big thing another says you need a multi sourced essay of doctoral level to even consider it (this is a joke, you just never consider others points at all).
I wanted to address this part too by pointing to a more traditional measure of success in a capitalistic society, wealth: And for some more historical context, In South Africa, during the atrocities of apartheid, the median black family held about 7 percent of typical white South African family net worth. Today, using Wolff’s analysis, the median African American family holds a mere 1.5 percent of median white American family wealth.Brief explanation of the difference between the two different measures of wealth inequality: New York University Professor Edward Wolff, one of the foremost economists studying wealth inequality, looks at the same Federal Reserve dataset that the Pew researchers used in a recent report he published in the National Bureau of Economic Research (paywall). Wolff points out that the Fed includes consumer durables in its net-worth estimates.
Wolff excludes these consumer durables from his net-worth figures because these assets — everything from automobiles and televisions to furniture and household appliances — cannot be readily converted to cash and their resale value typically far understates their consumption value.
According to Wolff’s calculations, the median black family is actually only worth $1,700 when you deduct these durables. In contrast, the median white family holds $116,800 of wealth using the same accounting methods. Black household wealth, Wolff adds, actually fell during the Great Recession from $6,700 to $1,700. EDIT: May seem like I'm picking on Jimmi so to be fair, this is kinda a thing. Americans, and higher-income whites in particular, vastly overestimate progress toward economic equality between blacks and whites, the psychologists reported Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Americans believe that blacks and whites are more equal today than they truly are on measures of income, wealth, wages and health benefits. And they believe more historical progress has occurred than is the case, suggesting “a profound misperception of and unfounded optimism” regarding racial equality.
“It seems that we’ve convinced ourselves – and by ‘we’ I mean Americans writ large – that racial discrimination is a thing of the past,” said Jennifer Richeson, who was another of the study’s authors, along with Julian Rucker, a doctoral student. “We’ve literally overcome it, so to speak, despite blatant evidence to the contrary.” www.nytimes.com You've shifted the goal posts rather than concede a point your own graphs have demonstrated to be true. No, you've demonstrated you didn't follow the discussion. He wasn't talking about wealth inequality. He said black households make more money. In other words, a measurable improvement from the 60s. The rise of a black middle class, etc. The quote* he pulled from an article about how Black people were left out of progress since the 60's, was only a part of the picture. Which is why I explained how it wasn't a "measurable improvement for Black people relative to white people", which is what I asked for. Pivoting onto your usual talking points doesn't distract from the fact you did the pivot. Racial wealth inequality is not one of my usual talking points, not that it invalidates it if it was. Also, I'm relatively confident that African Americans benefit from access to abortion the same as anyone else, and the potential loss of it under Trump is likely to hit African Americans harder than it will whites. So there's a measurable way things would be better under Clinton. This has nothing to do with the points being made. This is what he said: "Black adults experienced a more significant income increase from 1980 to 2016 – from $28,667 to $39,490 – than any other U.S. demographic group. This, in part, is why there’s now a significant black middle class." You babbled on about the inequality gap in an attempt to ignore what he said rather than directly countering his point. And you talking to anyone about 'not following the discussion' is hilarious. Half the time it's like you're talking to a brick wall and the rest of us are just watching. And you did it again. Try actually reading the post where I addressed it, I linked it to you in that one. Then get back to me. Is there actually a point? I'm attempting to argue a point with someone who genuinely appears to believe nothing has measurably improved for African Americans since the 1960s. Improvements in education? Irrelevant. Developing black middle class? Doesn't matter. Increased income, even if the wealth gap hasn't closed as much as it needs to? Irrelevant. What exactly do you consider a 'measurable' improvement? What kind of evidence actually counts to you?
You gotta pick not comprehending and NOT arguing in a jerky manner or comprehending AND arguing in a jerky manner, but it's obnoxious to not comprehend the argument AND argue your ignorant point in a jerky way.
The question was about "measurable improvements for Black people relative to white people" not "developing a middle class"
Don't act like I'm asking for some obscure or ridiculous standard of evidence. I've been remarkably straightforward about this despite the unfounded vitriolic rhetoric tossed my way
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On July 23 2018 23:42 Velr wrote:
I wonder why exactly do you think South African policy sais anything about the US... Last i checked a minority of blacks didn't opress the Whites/Others.
And what happens in SA atm is a really nice perfect storm born from total incompetence, corruption and "searching someone to blame/old grudges/reverse racism". Its a shame.
Also, SA is still recovering from decades of the most calculated and planned out systematic racial oppression in modern history. Apartheid wasn’t some accident, they studied racist policies of other nations and employed the most effective versions of all of those policies. That isn’t something a nation gets over in a single generation.
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Problem is, if it gets worse, there won't be much of a nation left that can get over something.
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On July 23 2018 23:42 Velr wrote:
I wonder why exactly do you think South African policy sais anything about the US... Last i checked a minority of blacks didn't opress the Whites/Others.
And what happens in SA atm is a really nice perfect storm born from total incompetence, corruption and "searching someone to blame/old grudges/reverse racism". Its a shame.
Yes, South Africa presents a different case study in that race relations were noticeably worse than in the US, but it presents an interesting situation in which the black oppressed have completely usurped the white oppressors. This change in power dynamics is GH's wet dream. So I want to know what he thinks of what the ANC is doing.
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I think it is disingenuous to imply that GH dreams about oppressing anyone.
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On July 23 2018 23:56 Plansix wrote:
I think it is disingenuous to imply that GH dreams about oppressing anyone.
I'm not implying anything. This is why I'm asking what GH thinks as opposed to saying what GH thinks.
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We would also have to establish what we're talking about exactly when it comes to South Africa, cause what's been happening there has been a major talking point of the Youtube far right and without having done any research on it I feel already confident enough to state that the large majority of those claims are not accurate.
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Norway28665 Posts
I think it seems like many of you guys missed where GH specified that it was black improvement relative to white people. I never saw him contest that there's been improvement for african americans since the 60s in absolute terms. But based on a cursory glance it seems like the data backs him up that black people have not really been 'catching up' by most measurable metrics - increased social acceptance being one exception.
Whether improvement in absolute or relative terms is most relevant is a different discussion and I'm not sure I agree with him, but he's consistently been asking about improvement relative to white people and several of the answers given to him didn't focus on that.
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On July 24 2018 00:00 JimmiC wrote:
You would have to ask him, he has brought out some pretty extreme views so many he would enjoy the tit for tat of oppressing a different group.
Well he is asking him, and yet you're still there to be a dick for no reason. Jesus dude.
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On July 24 2018 00:00 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think it seems like many of you guys missed where GH specified that it was black improvement relative to white people. I never saw him contest that there's been improvement for african americans since the 60s in absolute terms. But based on a cursory glance it seems like the data backs him up that black people have not really been 'catching up' by most measurable metrics - increased social acceptance being one exception.
Whether improvement in absolute or relative terms is most relevant is a different discussion and I'm not sure I agree with him, but he's consistently been asking about improvement relative to white people and several of the answers given to him didn't focus on that.
One chart that caught my eye on this point was the one regarding the increased racial wealth disparity since the Great Recession. It's pretty easy to see what happened there. Blacks were merely another casualty of loose monetary policy from the Fed. Asset owners did well. Everyone else got hosed. So are we going to say that the Fed is racist?
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On July 24 2018 00:05 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2018 00:01 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2018 00:00 JimmiC wrote:
You would have to ask him, he has brought out some pretty extreme views so many he would enjoy the tit for tat of oppressing a different group. Well he is asking him, and yet you're still there to be a dick for no reason. Jesus dude. I was responding to plansix, just people post so fast it got mixed up I should have quoted. And I have reason to be a dick. GH lead with being a dick to me from the start. Even going as far to say that he was doing it because I was a new and different poster. Which is hilarious considering he "supposedly" rails against discrimination.
It's funny how I generally agree with GH but when you post what GH's ideas are I generally disagree with those posts. Almost like there's a dissonance between the two.
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EPT
