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On July 15 2025 06:28 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 06:16 Billyboy wrote:
So if you vote for Harris, you're complicit in Genocide. If you vote for Trump, you're complicit in genocide. If you did not vote, your complicit in Genocide. If you are not an American, you are complicit in Genocide. And if you vote for Jill Stien, you are complicit in genocide. I mean, her lip service did less then even Harris or Biden.
It is like a Oprah special where instead of everyone getting a car, everyone gets accused of being guilty of genocide! woo! It makes more sense when you realize it's about sanctimony rather than the welfare of Gaza. The question isn't "which option results in the least suffering for Gazans," it's "which option allows me to be the most insufferable to other people on social media". It's the same principle behind pseudo-environmentalists opposing nuclear power replacing coal power, or transphobes pretending to care about the integrity of women's sports while voting to defund them. The outcome means absolutely nothing, it's all about putting on a show.
The arguments against nuclear can basically be boiled down to:
1. It is very expensive.
2. NIMBY, people are scared about meltdowns.
3. What do we do with the waste product? See 1, 2.
4. It takes a long time to build, you could do something else faster.
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On July 15 2025 06:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 06:28 LightSpectra wrote: or transphobes pretending to care about the integrity of women's sports while voting to defund them. The outcome means absolutely nothing, it's all about putting on a show. are there any transmen obliterating world records?
I'm going to let you think about that on your own for a few minutes.
On July 15 2025 06:34 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 06:28 LightSpectra wrote:On July 15 2025 06:16 Billyboy wrote:
So if you vote for Harris, you're complicit in Genocide. If you vote for Trump, you're complicit in genocide. If you did not vote, your complicit in Genocide. If you are not an American, you are complicit in Genocide. And if you vote for Jill Stien, you are complicit in genocide. I mean, her lip service did less then even Harris or Biden.
It is like a Oprah special where instead of everyone getting a car, everyone gets accused of being guilty of genocide! woo! It makes more sense when you realize it's about sanctimony rather than the welfare of Gaza. The question isn't "which option results in the least suffering for Gazans," it's "which option allows me to be the most insufferable to other people on social media". It's the same principle behind pseudo-environmentalists opposing nuclear power replacing coal power, or transphobes pretending to care about the integrity of women's sports while voting to defund them. The outcome means absolutely nothing, it's all about putting on a show. The arguments against nuclear can basically be boiled down to: 1. It is very expensive. 2. NIMBY, people are scared about meltdowns. 3. What do we do with the waste product? See 1, 3. 4. It takes a long time to build, you could do something else faster.
There are many good points to make about nuclear vs. solar, wind, and hydro. But all of these points except 4 are nonsense if the alternative is coal.
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On July 15 2025 06:05 Sermokala wrote:
Hey guys, if I'm going to believe you that one person trying to do good is better than a person who is telling you he's going to do bad things, I'm going to need to see a numerical amount of that bad thing vs the numerical amount of that good thing.
If you can't distill your argument about the morality of what a person is saying vs doing into a mathematical equation, then your argument is invalid, and I win.
To be fair, Godwrath was the one that brought up numbers and I'm also curious what he personally had in mind.
And also we can absolutely do that, we went from a proposed 1km width buffer zone pre-Trump to a proposed full occupation now. That's 60km² vs 360km².
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On July 15 2025 06:34 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 06:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 15 2025 06:28 LightSpectra wrote: or transphobes pretending to care about the integrity of women's sports while voting to defund them. The outcome means absolutely nothing, it's all about putting on a show. are there any transmen obliterating world records? I'm going to let you think about that on your own for a few minutes. Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 06:34 Yurie wrote:On July 15 2025 06:28 LightSpectra wrote:On July 15 2025 06:16 Billyboy wrote:
So if you vote for Harris, you're complicit in Genocide. If you vote for Trump, you're complicit in genocide. If you did not vote, your complicit in Genocide. If you are not an American, you are complicit in Genocide. And if you vote for Jill Stien, you are complicit in genocide. I mean, her lip service did less then even Harris or Biden.
It is like a Oprah special where instead of everyone getting a car, everyone gets accused of being guilty of genocide! woo! It makes more sense when you realize it's about sanctimony rather than the welfare of Gaza. The question isn't "which option results in the least suffering for Gazans," it's "which option allows me to be the most insufferable to other people on social media". It's the same principle behind pseudo-environmentalists opposing nuclear power replacing coal power, or transphobes pretending to care about the integrity of women's sports while voting to defund them. The outcome means absolutely nothing, it's all about putting on a show. The arguments against nuclear can basically be boiled down to: 1. It is very expensive. 2. NIMBY, people are scared about meltdowns. 3. What do we do with the waste product? See 1, 3. 4. It takes a long time to build, you could do something else faster. There are many good points to make about nuclear vs. solar, wind, and hydro. But all of these points except 4 are nonsense if the alternative is coal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#/media/File:20201019_Levelized_Cost_of_Energy_(LCOE,_Lazard)_-_renewable_energy.svg
Has nuclear as more expensive than coal. They are quite similar in cost, my memory was that nuclear was at least 50% more expensive.
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On July 15 2025 03:08 BlackJack wrote:
A lot of people that stand on the left scold anyone to the right of them that fail their purity tests how they enable bigotry, white supremacy, genocide, or whatever. GH just happens to stand even further to the left of ya’ll so ya’ll are included in that scolding. How GH sounds to you is how you sound to us.
They know this, that's part of what bothers them so much about it. That's part of why I typically do it in the context of them talking like Republicans are the only ones that attempt to rationalize their enabling of bigotry, white supremacy, genocide, or whatever.
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On July 15 2025 06:48 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 06:34 LightSpectra wrote:On July 15 2025 06:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 15 2025 06:28 LightSpectra wrote: or transphobes pretending to care about the integrity of women's sports while voting to defund them. The outcome means absolutely nothing, it's all about putting on a show. are there any transmen obliterating world records? I'm going to let you think about that on your own for a few minutes. On July 15 2025 06:34 Yurie wrote:On July 15 2025 06:28 LightSpectra wrote:On July 15 2025 06:16 Billyboy wrote:
So if you vote for Harris, you're complicit in Genocide. If you vote for Trump, you're complicit in genocide. If you did not vote, your complicit in Genocide. If you are not an American, you are complicit in Genocide. And if you vote for Jill Stien, you are complicit in genocide. I mean, her lip service did less then even Harris or Biden.
It is like a Oprah special where instead of everyone getting a car, everyone gets accused of being guilty of genocide! woo! It makes more sense when you realize it's about sanctimony rather than the welfare of Gaza. The question isn't "which option results in the least suffering for Gazans," it's "which option allows me to be the most insufferable to other people on social media". It's the same principle behind pseudo-environmentalists opposing nuclear power replacing coal power, or transphobes pretending to care about the integrity of women's sports while voting to defund them. The outcome means absolutely nothing, it's all about putting on a show. The arguments against nuclear can basically be boiled down to: 1. It is very expensive. 2. NIMBY, people are scared about meltdowns. 3. What do we do with the waste product? See 1, 3. 4. It takes a long time to build, you could do something else faster. There are many good points to make about nuclear vs. solar, wind, and hydro. But all of these points except 4 are nonsense if the alternative is coal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#/media/File:20201019_Levelized_Cost_of_Energy_(LCOE,_Lazard)_-_renewable_energy.svgHas nuclear as more expensive than coal. They are quite similar in cost, my memory was that nuclear was at least 50% more expensive.
Every source I can find says nuclear is either slightly less costly than coal or equal. In terms of environmental impact nuclear is preferable.
But the clearest overall winner is renewables. Nothing beats renewables in any of the metrics. Cheapest, safest, environmentally friendly. By far.
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On July 15 2025 06:48 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 06:34 LightSpectra wrote:On July 15 2025 06:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 15 2025 06:28 LightSpectra wrote: or transphobes pretending to care about the integrity of women's sports while voting to defund them. The outcome means absolutely nothing, it's all about putting on a show. are there any transmen obliterating world records? I'm going to let you think about that on your own for a few minutes. On July 15 2025 06:34 Yurie wrote:On July 15 2025 06:28 LightSpectra wrote:On July 15 2025 06:16 Billyboy wrote:
So if you vote for Harris, you're complicit in Genocide. If you vote for Trump, you're complicit in genocide. If you did not vote, your complicit in Genocide. If you are not an American, you are complicit in Genocide. And if you vote for Jill Stien, you are complicit in genocide. I mean, her lip service did less then even Harris or Biden.
It is like a Oprah special where instead of everyone getting a car, everyone gets accused of being guilty of genocide! woo! It makes more sense when you realize it's about sanctimony rather than the welfare of Gaza. The question isn't "which option results in the least suffering for Gazans," it's "which option allows me to be the most insufferable to other people on social media". It's the same principle behind pseudo-environmentalists opposing nuclear power replacing coal power, or transphobes pretending to care about the integrity of women's sports while voting to defund them. The outcome means absolutely nothing, it's all about putting on a show. The arguments against nuclear can basically be boiled down to: 1. It is very expensive. 2. NIMBY, people are scared about meltdowns. 3. What do we do with the waste product? See 1, 3. 4. It takes a long time to build, you could do something else faster. There are many good points to make about nuclear vs. solar, wind, and hydro. But all of these points except 4 are nonsense if the alternative is coal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#/media/File:20201019_Levelized_Cost_of_Energy_(LCOE,_Lazard)_-_renewable_energy.svgHas nuclear as more expensive than coal. They are quite similar in cost, my memory was that nuclear was at least 50% more expensive.
Coal is only cheaper if you don't count the environmental and health damage it does relative to low-carbon sources.
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United States43251 Posts
Yep. Radioactive waste from a nuclear plant gets buried at great expense. Radioactive waste from a coal plant is a bigger issue but they’re fine to just release it as smoke.
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United States43251 Posts
On July 15 2025 06:55 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 03:08 BlackJack wrote:
A lot of people that stand on the left scold anyone to the right of them that fail their purity tests how they enable bigotry, white supremacy, genocide, or whatever. GH just happens to stand even further to the left of ya’ll so ya’ll are included in that scolding. How GH sounds to you is how you sound to us. They know this, that's part of what bothers them so much about it. That's part of why I typically do it in the context of them talking like Republicans are the only ones that attempt to rationalize their enabling of bigotry, white supremacy, genocide, or whatever.
This ain’t it.
The problem isn’t that you’re more left than us, whatever that means (not sure how being pro Hamas is anti capitalist but whatever). The problem is that you oppose the leftmost party in a two party system. That makes you anti left.
Of course you justify that by saying that you’re so left that you’re going to overthrow the whole system and therefore don’t need to support the leftmost party. Okay buddy. But when are you going to do that? Because right now all you’re doing is opposing the left party and insisting that makes you the most leftist.
You’re indistinguishable from the right until you actually do a revolution. It’s also a very old and tired trope, Monty Python’s Jewish revolutionary groups all hating each other far more than the Romans for example. GH is a walking parody of the self important virtue signaling self identifying left wing revolutionary who somehow hasn’t realized that he’s a joke.
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On July 15 2025 06:55 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 03:08 BlackJack wrote:
A lot of people that stand on the left scold anyone to the right of them that fail their purity tests how they enable bigotry, white supremacy, genocide, or whatever. GH just happens to stand even further to the left of ya’ll so ya’ll are included in that scolding. How GH sounds to you is how you sound to us. They know this, that's part of what bothers them so much about it. That's part of why I typically do it in the context of them talking like Republicans are the only ones that attempt to rationalize their enabling of bigotry, white supremacy, genocide, or whatever.
I agree with them that browbeating people for not buying in to your ideology is counter-productive. I just wish they had a little more self-awareness.
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I think Kwark, GH, and BlackJack would all benefit from realizing they are all pursuing the same goal and they just have deeply differing underlying assumptions as to how that goal can be achieved.
All of you know I'd rather eat my own dick than endorse moral relativism. So that's not the argument I am making. But I think "within reason", many different views can be described as "people with the same goal working with different information".
As an example, I would say Romney and Bernie have roughly the same *deep* goals: Reduce suffering, increase prosperity, allow people to live happy lives. Even if that manifests as Romney being adamantly against some things Bernie wants, I think if we examined "why doesn't Romney like Bernie's idea", we would find the answer is "because Romney thinks it wouldn't work, and the effect would be negative rather than positive".
People like Mike Lee and Joe Manchin do not have the same goals as Romney/Bernie. They fundamentally don't actually care if the world improves. They want to benefit from holding elected offices in specific ways similar to how all of us have jobs to achieve our non-job goals.
Broadly speaking, I think people here should be less offended when someone thinks their idea is stupid and they should instead try to find where their assumptions diverge. That's how I generally conduct most conversations here and I think it makes the dynamic less antagonistic and more productive. It might be a reason I tend to not get offended when people blast me for this or that. I always assume a major difference in political opinion is rooted in miss-communication or our "fact list" of basic assumptions are different. In both cases, drilling down the root-cause of disagreement is the right way to go. And its way more fun.
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On July 15 2025 07:50 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 06:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 15 2025 03:08 BlackJack wrote:
A lot of people that stand on the left scold anyone to the right of them that fail their purity tests how they enable bigotry, white supremacy, genocide, or whatever. GH just happens to stand even further to the left of ya’ll so ya’ll are included in that scolding. How GH sounds to you is how you sound to us. They know this, that's part of what bothers them so much about it. That's part of why I typically do it in the context of them talking like Republicans are the only ones that attempt to rationalize their enabling of bigotry, white supremacy, genocide, or whatever. I agree with them that browbeating people for not buying in to your ideology is counter-productive. I just wish they had a little more self-awareness.
That's part of what is funny. I'm not even trying to convince anyone to be revolutionary socialists. I just describe the politics I observe like they do those to their right.
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United States43251 Posts
Except you don’t. There are two parties. The left think the right should vote for the left wing party. They think others are wrong for supporting right wing populism. You can’t think the left are voting insufficiently left when they’re voting for the leftmost party.
If you think they’re voting wrong then you have that in common with redhats.
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GH being a right wing troll this whole time is the least surprising development possible.
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Northern Ireland26058 Posts
GH, outside of both being unacceptable, which I’d agree with myself, do you believe there is no meaningful difference in policy as regards Israel/Palestine between this GOP admin and what a hypothetical Harris one would have done?
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On July 15 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 07:50 BlackJack wrote:On July 15 2025 06:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 15 2025 03:08 BlackJack wrote:
A lot of people that stand on the left scold anyone to the right of them that fail their purity tests how they enable bigotry, white supremacy, genocide, or whatever. GH just happens to stand even further to the left of ya’ll so ya’ll are included in that scolding. How GH sounds to you is how you sound to us. They know this, that's part of what bothers them so much about it. That's part of why I typically do it in the context of them talking like Republicans are the only ones that attempt to rationalize their enabling of bigotry, white supremacy, genocide, or whatever. I agree with them that browbeating people for not buying in to your ideology is counter-productive. I just wish they had a little more self-awareness. That's part of what is funny. I'm not even trying to convince anyone to be revolutionary socialists. I just describe the politics I observe like they do those to their right.
Man this was great, talking about others self awareness in it was the chefs kiss. Thanks to both of you for the belly laughs.
On July 15 2025 06:44 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 06:05 Sermokala wrote:
Hey guys, if I'm going to believe you that one person trying to do good is better than a person who is telling you he's going to do bad things, I'm going to need to see a numerical amount of that bad thing vs the numerical amount of that good thing.
If you can't distill your argument about the morality of what a person is saying vs doing into a mathematical equation, then your argument is invalid, and I win. To be fair, Godwrath was the one that brought up numbers and I'm also curious what he personally had in mind. And also we can absolutely do that, we went from a proposed 1km width buffer zone pre-Trump to a proposed full occupation now. That's 60km² vs 360km².
I'm not sure if there is numbers on it, but the Biden group was putting lots of pressure on Israel for aid. Seemed like a lot more got through then. But I don't have any numbers on it sadly.
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On July 15 2025 10:36 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 15 2025 07:50 BlackJack wrote:On July 15 2025 06:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 15 2025 03:08 BlackJack wrote:
A lot of people that stand on the left scold anyone to the right of them that fail their purity tests how they enable bigotry, white supremacy, genocide, or whatever. GH just happens to stand even further to the left of ya’ll so ya’ll are included in that scolding. How GH sounds to you is how you sound to us. They know this, that's part of what bothers them so much about it. That's part of why I typically do it in the context of them talking like Republicans are the only ones that attempt to rationalize their enabling of bigotry, white supremacy, genocide, or whatever. I agree with them that browbeating people for not buying in to your ideology is counter-productive. I just wish they had a little more self-awareness. That's part of what is funny. I'm not even trying to convince anyone to be revolutionary socialists. I just describe the politics I observe like they do those to their right. Man this was great, talking about others self awareness in it was the chefs kiss. Thanks to both of you for the belly laughs. Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 06:44 Dan HH wrote:On July 15 2025 06:05 Sermokala wrote:
Hey guys, if I'm going to believe you that one person trying to do good is better than a person who is telling you he's going to do bad things, I'm going to need to see a numerical amount of that bad thing vs the numerical amount of that good thing.
If you can't distill your argument about the morality of what a person is saying vs doing into a mathematical equation, then your argument is invalid, and I win. To be fair, Godwrath was the one that brought up numbers and I'm also curious what he personally had in mind. And also we can absolutely do that, we went from a proposed 1km width buffer zone pre-Trump to a proposed full occupation now. That's 60km² vs 360km². I'm not sure if there is numbers on it, but the Biden group was putting lots of pressure on Israel for aid. Seemed like a lot more got through then. But I don't have any numbers on it sadly.
On July 15 2025 10:23 Sermokala wrote:
GH being a right wing troll this whole time is the least surprising development possible.
It is an undeniable fact that GH gets along way better with the posters the further right they get.
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Northern Ireland26058 Posts
On July 15 2025 10:42 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 10:36 Billyboy wrote:On July 15 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 15 2025 07:50 BlackJack wrote:On July 15 2025 06:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 15 2025 03:08 BlackJack wrote:
A lot of people that stand on the left scold anyone to the right of them that fail their purity tests how they enable bigotry, white supremacy, genocide, or whatever. GH just happens to stand even further to the left of ya’ll so ya’ll are included in that scolding. How GH sounds to you is how you sound to us. They know this, that's part of what bothers them so much about it. That's part of why I typically do it in the context of them talking like Republicans are the only ones that attempt to rationalize their enabling of bigotry, white supremacy, genocide, or whatever. I agree with them that browbeating people for not buying in to your ideology is counter-productive. I just wish they had a little more self-awareness. That's part of what is funny. I'm not even trying to convince anyone to be revolutionary socialists. I just describe the politics I observe like they do those to their right. Man this was great, talking about others self awareness in it was the chefs kiss. Thanks to both of you for the belly laughs. On July 15 2025 06:44 Dan HH wrote:On July 15 2025 06:05 Sermokala wrote:
Hey guys, if I'm going to believe you that one person trying to do good is better than a person who is telling you he's going to do bad things, I'm going to need to see a numerical amount of that bad thing vs the numerical amount of that good thing.
If you can't distill your argument about the morality of what a person is saying vs doing into a mathematical equation, then your argument is invalid, and I win. To be fair, Godwrath was the one that brought up numbers and I'm also curious what he personally had in mind. And also we can absolutely do that, we went from a proposed 1km width buffer zone pre-Trump to a proposed full occupation now. That's 60km² vs 360km². I'm not sure if there is numbers on it, but the Biden group was putting lots of pressure on Israel for aid. Seemed like a lot more got through then. But I don't have any numbers on it sadly. Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 10:23 Sermokala wrote:
GH being a right wing troll this whole time is the least surprising development possible. It is an undeniable fact that GH gets along way better with the posters the further right they get.
‘Undeniable’ and ‘fact’ are doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
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On July 15 2025 10:58 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 10:42 Billyboy wrote:On July 15 2025 10:36 Billyboy wrote:On July 15 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 15 2025 07:50 BlackJack wrote:On July 15 2025 06:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 15 2025 03:08 BlackJack wrote:
A lot of people that stand on the left scold anyone to the right of them that fail their purity tests how they enable bigotry, white supremacy, genocide, or whatever. GH just happens to stand even further to the left of ya’ll so ya’ll are included in that scolding. How GH sounds to you is how you sound to us. They know this, that's part of what bothers them so much about it. That's part of why I typically do it in the context of them talking like Republicans are the only ones that attempt to rationalize their enabling of bigotry, white supremacy, genocide, or whatever. I agree with them that browbeating people for not buying in to your ideology is counter-productive. I just wish they had a little more self-awareness. That's part of what is funny. I'm not even trying to convince anyone to be revolutionary socialists. I just describe the politics I observe like they do those to their right. Man this was great, talking about others self awareness in it was the chefs kiss. Thanks to both of you for the belly laughs. On July 15 2025 06:44 Dan HH wrote:On July 15 2025 06:05 Sermokala wrote:
Hey guys, if I'm going to believe you that one person trying to do good is better than a person who is telling you he's going to do bad things, I'm going to need to see a numerical amount of that bad thing vs the numerical amount of that good thing.
If you can't distill your argument about the morality of what a person is saying vs doing into a mathematical equation, then your argument is invalid, and I win. To be fair, Godwrath was the one that brought up numbers and I'm also curious what he personally had in mind. And also we can absolutely do that, we went from a proposed 1km width buffer zone pre-Trump to a proposed full occupation now. That's 60km² vs 360km². I'm not sure if there is numbers on it, but the Biden group was putting lots of pressure on Israel for aid. Seemed like a lot more got through then. But I don't have any numbers on it sadly. On July 15 2025 10:23 Sermokala wrote:
GH being a right wing troll this whole time is the least surprising development possible. It is an undeniable fact that GH gets along way better with the posters the further right they get. ‘Undeniable’ and ‘fact’ are doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
Glad we agree
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People thought he wasn't trolling?
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EPT
