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On April 18 2025 01:32 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2025 01:19 Dan HH wrote:On April 18 2025 00:19 Legan wrote:
I wonder how some people think they could prove to ICE that they are A) citizens of the USA and B) not homegrown criminals when they are already being deported to El Salvador before their lawyer has even contacted the court. What document will they have in their pocket that an ICE officer will accept as proof of citizenship? What do they think happens when the officer says the document is fake? What will make the government follow the court's order to undo their mistake in their unique case? Probably a swastika tattoo would be the easiest way to prove you're one of the good guys. Are you one of those leftists who calls everyone with a swastika tattoo a Nazi? Typical of the left. Not everyone's a Nazi you know.
He never even mention that the Swastika is for Nazis. Sure, it is used by them but probably just as many Indians get one and thus it could be argued Indian immigrants are the good guys? (Not what he was arguing.)
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On April 18 2025 01:48 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2025 00:19 Legan wrote:
I wonder how some people think they could prove to ICE that they are A) citizens of the USA and B) not homegrown criminals when they are already being deported to El Salvador before their lawyer has even contacted the court. What document will they have in their pocket that an ICE officer will accept as proof of citizenship? What do they think happens when the officer says the document is fake? What will make the government follow the court's order to undo their mistake in their unique case? Yeah like when you have a bad traffic cop who breaks into your house and arrests you for reckless driving when you're sitting in a recliner. What evidence is he going to accept that you even have a license and proof of insurance? He can just say it's forged and haul you to jail anyway, which is why this situation I'm explaining now is obviously something that really happens. Because I mean these are just the kinds of pigs LEO are trained to be. Even if a MAGA judge placed a final removal order on someone after all the due process, there's no guarantee these ICE people wouldn't grab the wrong guy by accident, or even on purpose. What real defense is there to all these hijinks other than the slim intersection of people who are both card-carrying communists AND gainfully employed not going to work for a while? I mean who's really to say who is and isn't a citizen to begin with? Someone could be born in the US by a midwife with no birth certificate or social security number, raised with a family where they picked up a foreign language and accent, and live their whole life with no tax or any other history. And that could even look the exact same as someone who swam across the Rio Grande after tearing up their passports and burning their fingerprints. Who's to say which is which really? There would be no way of knowing for sure.
whether a person is any of these things is irrelevant if you only find out when they’re already in the salvadoran prison. this is why due process is a thing we have in the constitution.
getting the wrong person has happened countless times and will continue to. LEOs are fallible. trump administration officials are worse than fallible, often malicious and intentional, but never the less still fallible.
due process protects against both innocent mistakes and what’s next, intentionally deporting actual citizens. whether it’s the person they intend to remove from their home or not.
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Its hard to see this as anything other than an unhinged power play to assert dominance over the courts. 21 year old born in the US, with birth certificate already presented in court. Still being held.
Lopez Gomez, 21, was born in Georgia. According to court records, he has been assigned a judge as well as a public defender. He appears to have been arrested and charged under an “anti-immigration” law passed in Florida two months ago, despite the fact that the law is currently under a temporary restraining order and isn’t supposed to be enforced.
https://newrepublic.com/post/194119/ice-detains-us-born-citizen-despite-birth-certificate
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oBlades abject apathy about the dangers of that ever happening have convinced me that’s probably a lie. does he even have a job? ship him to CECOT. :r omg the smilies don’t work anymore
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On April 18 2025 07:38 Mohdoo wrote:Its hard to see this as anything other than an unhinged power play to assert dominance over the courts. 21 year old born in the US, with birth certificate already presented in court. Still being held. Show nested quote +Lopez Gomez, 21, was born in Georgia. According to court records, he has been assigned a judge as well as a public defender. He appears to have been arrested and charged under an “anti-immigration” law passed in Florida two months ago, despite the fact that the law is currently under a temporary restraining order and isn’t supposed to be enforced.
https://newrepublic.com/post/194119/ice-detains-us-born-citizen-despite-birth-certificate
Feel like this has fresh relevance
Just so people know, I'll be understandably disappointed if you do anything less than whatever is necessary to get me/my loved one out. I'll be more happy than not if you at least muster a general strike though.
Still open to ideas, but doing nothing/pissing away this moment is unconscionable to me.
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On April 18 2025 07:38 Mohdoo wrote:Its hard to see this as anything other than an unhinged power play to assert dominance over the courts. 21 year old born in the US, with birth certificate already presented in court. Still being held. Show nested quote +Lopez Gomez, 21, was born in Georgia. According to court records, he has been assigned a judge as well as a public defender. He appears to have been arrested and charged under an “anti-immigration” law passed in Florida two months ago, despite the fact that the law is currently under a temporary restraining order and isn’t supposed to be enforced.
https://newrepublic.com/post/194119/ice-detains-us-born-citizen-despite-birth-certificate
We are so cooked
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On April 18 2025 08:43 decafchicken wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2025 07:38 Mohdoo wrote:Its hard to see this as anything other than an unhinged power play to assert dominance over the courts. 21 year old born in the US, with birth certificate already presented in court. Still being held. Lopez Gomez, 21, was born in Georgia. According to court records, he has been assigned a judge as well as a public defender. He appears to have been arrested and charged under an “anti-immigration” law passed in Florida two months ago, despite the fact that the law is currently under a temporary restraining order and isn’t supposed to be enforced.
https://newrepublic.com/post/194119/ice-detains-us-born-citizen-despite-birth-certificate We are so cooked
mass enforcement will always lead to some mistakes. Assuming the facts outlined in the article are indeed facts... this single case is the tip of the iceberg of incorrect enforcement.
i suggest donating to Project Innocence.
https://innocenceproject.org/
fuck batman, superman, and spiderman.
Barry Scheck is a real hero.
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On April 18 2025 07:54 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2025 07:38 Mohdoo wrote:Its hard to see this as anything other than an unhinged power play to assert dominance over the courts. 21 year old born in the US, with birth certificate already presented in court. Still being held. Lopez Gomez, 21, was born in Georgia. According to court records, he has been assigned a judge as well as a public defender. He appears to have been arrested and charged under an “anti-immigration” law passed in Florida two months ago, despite the fact that the law is currently under a temporary restraining order and isn’t supposed to be enforced.
https://newrepublic.com/post/194119/ice-detains-us-born-citizen-despite-birth-certificate Feel like this has fresh relevance Just so people know, I'll be understandably disappointed if you do anything less than whatever is necessary to get me/my loved one out. I'll be more happy than not if you at least muster a general strike though. Still open to ideas, but doing nothing/pissing away this moment is unconscionable to me.
Just to be clear, your frustration and resentment is justified.
That being said, you gotta give people time to internalize stuff like this. Even for those of us who predicted it would eventually reach the point where showing a judge your birth certificate isn’t enough to be released from ICE, this is such a gigantic escalation people aren’t going to even really be able to swallow it right away.
People need more than an hour to sort through what this means to them. Even if people agree with you next week, expecting them to agree with you right now lacks compassion and understanding.
I myself am just kinda sitting here reassuring myself I’m not in immediate danger because my mom is white as a ghost and born in Oregon. Time to grow my hair out and avoid my tan getting any darker than it already is.
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in August 2001 i went to a Buffalo Bills pre-season game packed in a minivan with a bunch of people. i was 14 at the time but still had a SIN card and other ID. I forgot it at all home. They let me cross the border any way 
oh how times have changed.
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Good news, Kilmar is alive, so at least theres that.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/chris-van-hollen-meets-kilmar-abrego-garcia-el-salvador-rcna201830
Sen. Chris Van Hollen confirmed Thursday night that he has met with Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the man whom the Trump administration said it mistakenly deported to El Salvador in March.
"I said my main goal of this trip was to meet with Kilmar. Tonight I had that chance. I have called his wife, Jennifer, to pass along his message of love. I look forward to providing a full update upon my return," Van Hollen, D-Md., wrote on X.
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On April 18 2025 08:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2025 08:43 decafchicken wrote:On April 18 2025 07:38 Mohdoo wrote:Its hard to see this as anything other than an unhinged power play to assert dominance over the courts. 21 year old born in the US, with birth certificate already presented in court. Still being held. Lopez Gomez, 21, was born in Georgia. According to court records, he has been assigned a judge as well as a public defender. He appears to have been arrested and charged under an “anti-immigration” law passed in Florida two months ago, despite the fact that the law is currently under a temporary restraining order and isn’t supposed to be enforced.
https://newrepublic.com/post/194119/ice-detains-us-born-citizen-despite-birth-certificate We are so cooked mass enforcement will always lead to some mistakes. Assuming the facts outlined in the article are indeed facts... this single case is the tip of the iceberg of incorrect enforcement. i suggest donating to Project Innocence. https://innocenceproject.org/fuck batman, superman, and spiderman. Barry Scheck is a real hero.
Project Innocence does a lot of good work, but it's a bit absurd how much work they have to do in the US. Wouldn't it be better if the justice system erred on the side of caution, and innocent until proven guilty had actual meaning for everyone (and not just the rich who can afford expensive lawyers)? That way Project Innocence would have far less work to do (not none, mistakes will probably always be made, but a lot less). Pointing to a case of ICE locking up a US citizen for breaking a law that they shouldn't be enforcing in the first place and saying "donate to this NGO" as a solution seems rather ignorant, although it's more thoughtful than your usual approach of "lol, he should've had an escape plan. Why does he still live in the US?"
On the upside, ICE doesn't seem to have shipped him to El Salvador yet, so there's that.
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I'm glad that Kilmar knows people are fighting for him. I'm not sure if they get any news in that hellhole. I'm assuming worst case scenario where its completely media darkness, but maybe thats just propaganda.
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I am legit surprised he is actually still alive
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On April 18 2025 07:33 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2025 01:48 oBlade wrote:On April 18 2025 00:19 Legan wrote:
I wonder how some people think they could prove to ICE that they are A) citizens of the USA and B) not homegrown criminals when they are already being deported to El Salvador before their lawyer has even contacted the court. What document will they have in their pocket that an ICE officer will accept as proof of citizenship? What do they think happens when the officer says the document is fake? What will make the government follow the court's order to undo their mistake in their unique case? Yeah like when you have a bad traffic cop who breaks into your house and arrests you for reckless driving when you're sitting in a recliner. What evidence is he going to accept that you even have a license and proof of insurance? He can just say it's forged and haul you to jail anyway, which is why this situation I'm explaining now is obviously something that really happens. Because I mean these are just the kinds of pigs LEO are trained to be. Even if a MAGA judge placed a final removal order on someone after all the due process, there's no guarantee these ICE people wouldn't grab the wrong guy by accident, or even on purpose. What real defense is there to all these hijinks other than the slim intersection of people who are both card-carrying communists AND gainfully employed not going to work for a while? I mean who's really to say who is and isn't a citizen to begin with? Someone could be born in the US by a midwife with no birth certificate or social security number, raised with a family where they picked up a foreign language and accent, and live their whole life with no tax or any other history. And that could even look the exact same as someone who swam across the Rio Grande after tearing up their passports and burning their fingerprints. Who's to say which is which really? There would be no way of knowing for sure. whether a person is any of these things is irrelevant if you only find out when they’re already in the salvadoran prison. this is why due process is a thing we have in the constitution. getting the wrong person has happened countless times and will continue to. LEOs are fallible. trump administration officials are worse than fallible, often malicious and intentional, but never the less still fallible.
The LEOs are the same as they were under Biden. The "due process" guaranteed is not an assurance against fallibility. As you readily admit mistakes happen.
On April 18 2025 07:33 brian wrote:
due process protects against both innocent mistakes and what’s next, intentionally deporting actual citizens. whether it’s the person they intend to remove from their home or not.
Yes, due process protects? It does not guarantee. That's how the world works in general. Your concern for an individual foreigner is admirable, but impractical.
This is going to blow your mind, but a citizen can be wrongly detained, or deported (extremely rare, a few times in history). This is a fact for the same reasons innocent people get arrested, and convicted, and even executed, for everything else under the law besidesimmigration. True of almost every country except in the last case those without capital punishment. The remedy for that is not throw out the entire exercise of enforcing laws, because he got the process, just that the process made a mistake and was wrong. The solution is to always make the process better, and to make the process have less things to do by having people follow laws more and break them less because the more overburdened a process is the worse its success rate and reliability becomes. Yet only immigration inspires this stubborn abandon of realism.
The remedy for these is when LEO/the state are negligent they can lose qualified immunity and be fired and sued. This includes damages to the victim of the mistake. When malicious they can be fired and investigated and charged and convicted. The solution is not dump borders and the rule of law obviously, and even ten mistakes do not outweigh hundreds of thousands of successes.
The case of a citizen being deported is so peculiar that for physical reasons of the way things work, once a citizen were in another country, they aren't in US jurisdiction, meaning it's very difficult for a US court decision to be applicable or enforceable in any way.
Here's a hypothetical to illustrate. Imagine the US accidentally sent an GWOT translator who became naturalized back to Afghanistan after misidentifying him as a terrorist. Once he's in Afghanistan, a US court can't order Afghanistan to send him back, nor dictate to the president how to conduct a military operation to retrieve him, nor dictate to the State Department how to negotiate his release. At that point, like it or not, he is a political issue (assuming no gross negligence or criminal conduct, which could lead to prosecutions for anyone other than the president/(VP). That means there are only political remedies. Meaning if people keep making the same mistake in a pattern that doesn't look like a mistake anymore, or do it on purpose, or seem not to do enough to retrieve many US citizens back, they are able to be fired, investigated, and up to the president impeached and removed and thereby replaced. And also replaced at the next election, like if enough people think Kilmar Garcia is some kind of Anne Frank level historical tragedy and want to run with that message.
On April 18 2025 07:40 brian wrote:
oBlades abject apathy about the dangers of that ever happening have convinced me that’s probably a lie. does he even have a job? ship him to CECOT. :r omg the smilies don’t work anymore
And.... now he's out of the jail.
I'm apathetic to any claims the US intentionally enforces laws wrong because it's fascist. I'm empathetic to any claims humans make mistakes because they are overworked, stupid, uncaring, and incompetent, and welcome ways to make them less overworked, more intelligent, more caring, and more competent.
The "due process" in this guy's case is he was in a car with a driver arrested for speeding without a license, with at least two people who were also arrested on suspicion of being unauthorized (there may have been a communications breakdown because of his English levels since after being released he talked to newspapers in Spanish) and a federal agency put a hold on him using their statutory authority, and a local judge couldn't override it instantaneously because it's not under HER authority. That is not the end of the world. That's the process. That's the same when the officer arrests you for DUI when you're erratic and refuse a breathalizer despite he hasn't proved your BAC yet. That's the same when someone can put you in a 72 hour psych hold. That's the same when someone can use a red flag law to suspend your right to bear arms even when there's an entire amendment guaranteeing it. That's the process because those are laws that legislatures have passed and courts have not yet thrown out after challenge.
The government obviously has QC issues and I would certainly favor hiring a NoMistakeMan for every department of every agency to make a final determination whether something is correct or not and flag it so the government never allows a mistake to happen again.
Job question is weird to bring up. Having a job or not is not a reason to excuse or not excuse alleged lawbreaking just because for going on 175 years now the Democrat party's platform revolves around exploiting minorities to labor for the rich.
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Weird that the government of promised efficiency has to break so many eggs before it's actually becoming actually efficient. Almost like the processes they're changing were already kind of efficient, with acting too hastily increaes the percentages of wrongly deported people.
Let's go for a practical question oBlade: what % of failure rate (false positives) do you accept for this increase in deportation activity?
Because I also understand the idea of "mistakes happening" but every citizen wrongly accused is one too many and undermines the systems put in place and should be a reason to adjust the system to work out these errors.
Do you think they're fixing the errors or steering right on forward full steam?
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That tightrope between 'It was just a mistake' and 'No I absolutely don't want anyone to fix it' must be a tricky one to walk.
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Not if you don't care about coherence, let alone morals or ethics.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
San Salvador seems to be the leader by rate, while the US leads in absolutes.
Either the average American is more likely to become a criminal, or the government of the US is particularly fond of labeling people as criminals. Or both. Or the law is already at extreme levels of strictness. Or all of those.
Now you‘re already leading the list and here comes someone and decides you should be incarcerated in the country with the highest proportion of detainees/population after you just escaped a country that evidently has issues with maintaining the peace without running draconian prisons.
The reason for this strictness is because everyone in the US has the right to be as dangerous as they want in terms of being armed. That‘s irreversible, it‘s also the main reason for violent crime. It‘s easier to introduce restrictions into a fearful population.
Guns don‘t kill people is nonsense. Having easy access to one and fetishizing their use makes you more likely to use them.
Result: One of the highest murder rates among developed nations. Gunfire is the preferred method of suicide in the US.
Did this guy do something so egregious that he should be denied asylum ?
The solution to the US drug problem isn‘t to dump folk into jails, or it would have worked already.
It‘s a systemic issue. But yeah, hard to change when it stems from the constitution.
Social programs of sorts and better healthcare might help.
Or the US can just keep building prisons.
That‘s the extreme of individualism, everyone for themselves.
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On April 18 2025 18:18 Uldridge wrote:
Weird that the government of promised efficiency has to break so many eggs before it's actually becoming actually efficient. Almost like the processes they're changing were already kind of efficient, with acting too hastily increaes the percentages of wrongly deported people.
Let's go for a practical question oBlade: what % of failure rate (false positives) do you accept for this increase in deportation activity?
Because I also understand the idea of "mistakes happening" but every citizen wrongly accused is one too many and undermines the systems put in place and should be a reason to adjust the system to work out these errors.
Do you think they're fixing the errors or steering right on forward full steam?
Thank you for the cordiality so I'll be whatever my version of concise is.
For actual US citizens, any more than a literal handful, 5, sent out over a president's term in even the most aggressive deportation policies would be an egregious abuse (or indicator thereof). And lightning would have to strike several times for even that to happen. Like you miss multiple filters or someone's asleep at the wheel. For actual citizens mistakenly sent and not brought back, even one is headrollingly scandalous. Like a cabinet secretary out level at least. But I have to qualify this because there's edge cases, for example dual citizens, and I have quite an imagination - like imagine a terror-linked Pakistani citizen who was a naturalized American, deported accidentally, but didn't want to come back. And also there's still I think legal mechanisms in place for denaturalization in extreme cases. I wouldn't count those as part of the failure rate but someone might.
The cases of citizens being deported before that I know (I mean of the US, not El Salvador) were often related to mental issues. Like people who barely know what a citizen is let alone what countries they're one of. Maybe there were more cases during Operation Wetback, I'd have to research. But an action of that level of crudeness is not possible today.
People have been being wrongly detained for a while actually, it's usually brief, as it was for Lopez Gomez. His experience is not really new. Think of the gov't's perspective a bit - they may find probable cause but then end up being wrong (which again is not unique to immigration). The number of people wrongly detained for more than a couple days, for no reason other than immigration, needs to severely fall like a cliff like it should for anything really. Probably max 1% at that point.
A way to reduce cases of holding the wrong people is agencies and levels of government communicate and share databases to identify people - which is also something civil rights groups oppose because obviously it's a gross privacy violation if the government were able to tell itself who you are - so it's better to tie the government's hands and force them to make actual civil rights violations and blame it on them for not being sure. But seriously, interagency communication streamlines other things and detects fraud and so on.
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On April 18 2025 19:45 Vivax wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rateSan Salvador seems to be the leader by rate, while the US leads in absolutes. Either the average American is more likely to become a criminal, or the government of the US is particularly fond of labeling people as criminals. Or both. Or the law is already at extreme levels of strictness. Or all of those. Now you‘re already leading the list and here comes someone and decides you should be incarcerated in the country with the highest proportion of detainees/population after you just escaped a country that evidently has issues with maintaining the peace without running draconian prisons. The reason for this strictness is because everyone in the US has the right to be as dangerous as they want in terms of being armed. That‘s irreversible, it‘s also the main reason for violent crime. It‘s easier to introduce restrictions into a fearful population. Guns don‘t kill people is nonsense. Having easy access to one and fetishizing their use makes you more likely to use them. Result: One of the highest murder rates among developed nations. Gunfire is the preferred method of suicide in the US. Did this guy do something so egregious that he should be denied asylum ? The solution to the US drug problem isn‘t to dump folk into jails, or it would have worked already. It‘s a systemic issue. But yeah, hard to change when it stems from the constitution. Social programs of sorts and better healthcare might help. Or the US can just keep building prisons. That‘s the extreme of individualism, everyone for themselves.
Wouldn't individualism have less due process and fast death penalties? Nobody wants to pay for a prison that then makes profit for the owner.
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