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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On April 18 2025 23:50 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2025 19:45 Vivax wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rateSan Salvador seems to be the leader by rate, while the US leads in absolutes. Either the average American is more likely to become a criminal, or the government of the US is particularly fond of labeling people as criminals. Or both. Or the law is already at extreme levels of strictness. Or all of those. Now you‘re already leading the list and here comes someone and decides you should be incarcerated in the country with the highest proportion of detainees/population after you just escaped a country that evidently has issues with maintaining the peace without running draconian prisons. The reason for this strictness is because everyone in the US has the right to be as dangerous as they want in terms of being armed. That‘s irreversible, it‘s also the main reason for violent crime. It‘s easier to introduce restrictions into a fearful population. Guns don‘t kill people is nonsense. Having easy access to one and fetishizing their use makes you more likely to use them. Result: One of the highest murder rates among developed nations. Gunfire is the preferred method of suicide in the US. Did this guy do something so egregious that he should be denied asylum ? The solution to the US drug problem isn‘t to dump folk into jails, or it would have worked already. It‘s a systemic issue. But yeah, hard to change when it stems from the constitution. Social programs of sorts and better healthcare might help. Or the US can just keep building prisons. That‘s the extreme of individualism, everyone for themselves. Wouldn't individualism have less due process and fast death penalties? Nobody wants to pay for a prison that then makes profit for the owner.
I‘m pretty sure the average Asian country punishes faster and more harshly. They are the collectivists.
In the US it‘s more about the money. You‘d pay sentences with forced labour, but in theory you‘d keep many of your other rights while in prison.
Since every citizen is allowed the freedom to be as dangerous as they want to be, it requires an equally strong reactivity from the authorities.
There needs to be a compromise, but that requires taking away some rights Americans see as fundamental.
You wouldn‘t paradrop a British bobby into Detroit. Or an US cop into Norway.
The US is on the Ruskification route now. So individual freedom, BUT money matters, who you can bribe, scam, deceive. Can‘t criticize the government.
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I'd be interested in the amount of forced labour that happens in US prisons from a percentage standpoint, both in what percentage do it and how much of their day/week are it. I think if I guessed I'd have a very small chance of getting it right.
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On April 18 2025 23:37 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2025 18:18 Uldridge wrote:
Weird that the government of promised efficiency has to break so many eggs before it's actually becoming actually efficient. Almost like the processes they're changing were already kind of efficient, with acting too hastily increaes the percentages of wrongly deported people.
Let's go for a practical question oBlade: what % of failure rate (false positives) do you accept for this increase in deportation activity?
Because I also understand the idea of "mistakes happening" but every citizen wrongly accused is one too many and undermines the systems put in place and should be a reason to adjust the system to work out these errors.
Do you think they're fixing the errors or steering right on forward full steam? Thank you for the cordiality so I'll be whatever my version of concise is. For actual US citizens, any more than a literal handful, 5, sent out over a president's term in even the most aggressive deportation policies would be an egregious abuse (or indicator thereof). And lightning would have to strike several times for even that to happen. Like you miss multiple filters or someone's asleep at the wheel. For actual citizens mistakenly sent and not brought back, even one is headrollingly scandalous. Like a cabinet secretary out level at least. But I have to qualify this because there's edge cases, for example dual citizens, and I have quite an imagination - like imagine a terror-linked Pakistani citizen who was a naturalized American, deported accidentally, but didn't want to come back. And also there's still I think legal mechanisms in place for denaturalization in extreme cases. I wouldn't count those as part of the failure rate but someone might. People have been being wrongly detained for a while actually, it's usually brief, as it was for Lopez Gomez. His experience is not really new. Think of the gov't's perspective a bit - they may find probable cause but then end up being wrong (which again is not unique to immigration). The number of people wrongly detained for more than a couple days, for no reason other than immigration, needs to severely fall like a cliff like it should for anything really. Probably max 1% at that point. A way to reduce cases of holding the wrong people is agencies and levels of government communicate and share databases to identify people - which is also something civil rights groups oppose because obviously it's a gross privacy violation if the government were able to tell itself who you are - so it's better to tie the government's hands and force them to make actual civil rights violations and blame it on them for not being sure. But seriously, interagency communication streamlines other things and detects fraud and so on.
He was detained under an immigration law that ISN'T EVEN IN EFFECT. Any probable cause they MIGHT have had is thrown out the window when his documents were presented and especially when presented to a judge who validated them. The initial detention and sustained detention are both massive violations of the 4th amendment and possibly the 6th.
Not even 1% is acceptable to illegally detain and hold people for 2 days. People are presumed innocent until proven guilty, being brown and driving a car is in no way acceptable grounds to be detained.
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Quickly googled this and found an NPR article from 2011 during Obama's presidency
Stevens looked at about 8,000 cases in just two immigration detention facilities. She found that about 1 percent of the time, people were eventually let go because they were U.S. citizens. However, that meant the citizens were held between one week and four years in detention.
Stevens says that when members of Congress hear the figure is 1 percent, they think it's not bad.
"However, if we think about the magnitude of our deportation process, that means that thousands of U.S. citizens each year and tens of thousands in the course of a decade will be detained for substantial periods of time in absolute violation of the law and their civil rights," she says.
So apparently thousands of US citizens were detained for weeks or even years in ICE detention facilities during Obama's Presidency but I'm sure we'll soon learn why 1 US citizen being detained for 2 days is the worst thing that's ever happened in America
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On April 19 2025 03:15 BlackJack wrote:Quickly googled this and found an NPR article from 2011 during Obama's presidency Show nested quote +Stevens looked at about 8,000 cases in just two immigration detention facilities. She found that about 1 percent of the time, people were eventually let go because they were U.S. citizens. However, that meant the citizens were held between one week and four years in detention.
Stevens says that when members of Congress hear the figure is 1 percent, they think it's not bad.
"However, if we think about the magnitude of our deportation process, that means that thousands of U.S. citizens each year and tens of thousands in the course of a decade will be detained for substantial periods of time in absolute violation of the law and their civil rights," she says. So apparently thousands of US citizens were detained for weeks or even years in ICE detention facilities during Obama's Presidency but I'm sure we'll soon learn why 1 US citizen being detained for 2 days is the worst thing that's ever happened in America
what exactly is your point?
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On April 19 2025 03:15 BlackJack wrote:Quickly googled this and found an NPR article from 2011 during Obama's presidency Show nested quote +Stevens looked at about 8,000 cases in just two immigration detention facilities. She found that about 1 percent of the time, people were eventually let go because they were U.S. citizens. However, that meant the citizens were held between one week and four years in detention.
Stevens says that when members of Congress hear the figure is 1 percent, they think it's not bad.
"However, if we think about the magnitude of our deportation process, that means that thousands of U.S. citizens each year and tens of thousands in the course of a decade will be detained for substantial periods of time in absolute violation of the law and their civil rights," she says. So apparently thousands of US citizens were detained for weeks or even years in ICE detention facilities during Obama's Presidency but I'm sure we'll soon learn why 1 US citizen being detained for 2 days is the worst thing that's ever happened in America
That is also fucked up. It doesn't matter which administration it's happening under, it shouldn't be happening.
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On April 19 2025 03:30 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2025 03:15 BlackJack wrote:Quickly googled this and found an NPR article from 2011 during Obama's presidency Stevens looked at about 8,000 cases in just two immigration detention facilities. She found that about 1 percent of the time, people were eventually let go because they were U.S. citizens. However, that meant the citizens were held between one week and four years in detention.
Stevens says that when members of Congress hear the figure is 1 percent, they think it's not bad.
"However, if we think about the magnitude of our deportation process, that means that thousands of U.S. citizens each year and tens of thousands in the course of a decade will be detained for substantial periods of time in absolute violation of the law and their civil rights," she says. So apparently thousands of US citizens were detained for weeks or even years in ICE detention facilities during Obama's Presidency but I'm sure we'll soon learn why 1 US citizen being detained for 2 days is the worst thing that's ever happened in America what exactly is your point?
The point is flooding the 24 hour news cycle with something that wouldn't even have been footnote 10 years ago is selective outrage to manipulate people. It erodes trust in the media because it's obviously driven by an agenda. It's no different than waiting for an illegal immigrant to murder a random white girl so they can flood the news with it while ignoring all the other white girls that have been murdered in the meantime.
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On April 18 2025 17:12 Gorsameth wrote:I am legit surprised he is actually still alive
Yeah, I guess they're being careful to not create a media uproar/riots. Once Trump starts sending american prisoners I wonder if they'll be so careful.
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On April 19 2025 02:57 decafchicken wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2025 23:37 oBlade wrote:On April 18 2025 18:18 Uldridge wrote:
Weird that the government of promised efficiency has to break so many eggs before it's actually becoming actually efficient. Almost like the processes they're changing were already kind of efficient, with acting too hastily increaes the percentages of wrongly deported people.
Let's go for a practical question oBlade: what % of failure rate (false positives) do you accept for this increase in deportation activity?
Because I also understand the idea of "mistakes happening" but every citizen wrongly accused is one too many and undermines the systems put in place and should be a reason to adjust the system to work out these errors.
Do you think they're fixing the errors or steering right on forward full steam? Thank you for the cordiality so I'll be whatever my version of concise is. For actual US citizens, any more than a literal handful, 5, sent out over a president's term in even the most aggressive deportation policies would be an egregious abuse (or indicator thereof). And lightning would have to strike several times for even that to happen. Like you miss multiple filters or someone's asleep at the wheel. For actual citizens mistakenly sent and not brought back, even one is headrollingly scandalous. Like a cabinet secretary out level at least. But I have to qualify this because there's edge cases, for example dual citizens, and I have quite an imagination - like imagine a terror-linked Pakistani citizen who was a naturalized American, deported accidentally, but didn't want to come back. And also there's still I think legal mechanisms in place for denaturalization in extreme cases. I wouldn't count those as part of the failure rate but someone might. People have been being wrongly detained for a while actually, it's usually brief, as it was for Lopez Gomez. His experience is not really new. Think of the gov't's perspective a bit - they may find probable cause but then end up being wrong (which again is not unique to immigration). The number of people wrongly detained for more than a couple days, for no reason other than immigration, needs to severely fall like a cliff like it should for anything really. Probably max 1% at that point. A way to reduce cases of holding the wrong people is agencies and levels of government communicate and share databases to identify people - which is also something civil rights groups oppose because obviously it's a gross privacy violation if the government were able to tell itself who you are - so it's better to tie the government's hands and force them to make actual civil rights violations and blame it on them for not being sure. But seriously, interagency communication streamlines other things and detects fraud and so on. He was detained under an immigration law that ISN'T EVEN IN EFFECT. Any probable cause they MIGHT have had is thrown out the window when his documents were presented and especially when presented to a judge who validated them. The initial detention and sustained detention are both massive violations of the 4th amendment and possibly the 6th. Not even 1% is acceptable to illegally detain and hold people for 2 days. People are presumed innocent until proven guilty, being brown and driving a car is in no way acceptable grounds to be detained.
Lopez Gomez wasn't driving the car but yeah the driver who was speeding without a license was probably detained for a reason other than being brown. For L.G. the arresting officers either just didn't get the memo about the recent TRO, or were doing something fishy. Absolutely sucks for him and L.G. is welcome to sue as many have before, but in the meantime you are willfully overlooking a real truth that in our society, the state has both the power and legal authority to put you in a box both before asking a judge and before proving you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law, for many reasons.
If you only think the box-putting is beyond the pale in these instances, it doesn't seem to be about the box-putting per se, but you're working backwards from a policy belief you already have about immigration specifically.
That a Florida judge can/should overrule an ICE detainer (federal) is not obvious under Florida law, is it? I understand you think it's a due process violation. But federal courts have not thrown out ICE's authority on this. Nor has Florida outlawed ICE cooperation. ICE was doing what they had the power to do, in good faith, the (Democrat) judge was being cautious in good faith, the arresting officer either made a mistake that falls under qualified immunity, or he made a mistake that was so over the line in its brazen violation of the victim's rights that he should be open to a lawsuit to make the situation right. Thousands of American citizens get detained, arrested, and jailed every day for all kinds of shit. And thousands are released again per day. But we are not teleporting to a world where the police can't arrest anyone because one of the ones that said they were innocent (everyone) might actually be innocent.
So what about the two people with Guatemalan IDs he was in the car with by the way. They might not be citizens like he is but that doesn't mean he should get all the attention. Their cases might be fascinating too if we knew any more. Did they also get ICE holds and get transferred somewhere? Did they end up also being US citizens? Can we at least try to be consistent and pretend to give a shit about them?
On April 19 2025 03:15 BlackJack wrote:Quickly googled this and found an NPR article from 2011 during Obama's presidency Show nested quote +Stevens looked at about 8,000 cases in just two immigration detention facilities. She found that about 1 percent of the time, people were eventually let go because they were U.S. citizens. However, that meant the citizens were held between one week and four years in detention.
Stevens says that when members of Congress hear the figure is 1 percent, they think it's not bad.
"However, if we think about the magnitude of our deportation process, that means that thousands of U.S. citizens each year and tens of thousands in the course of a decade will be detained for substantial periods of time in absolute violation of the law and their civil rights," she says. So apparently thousands of US citizens were detained for weeks or even years in ICE detention facilities during Obama's Presidency but I'm sure we'll soon learn why 1 US citizen being detained for 2 days is the worst thing that's ever happened in America
Holy lord, about 1% of the time?
This is awful. I've woken up to learn I'm as extreme and radical as a celebrated president who both invented and used the power to personally order the drone strikes of US citizens.
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On April 19 2025 03:15 BlackJack wrote:Quickly googled this and found an NPR article from 2011 during Obama's presidency Show nested quote +Stevens looked at about 8,000 cases in just two immigration detention facilities. She found that about 1 percent of the time, people were eventually let go because they were U.S. citizens. However, that meant the citizens were held between one week and four years in detention.
Stevens says that when members of Congress hear the figure is 1 percent, they think it's not bad.
"However, if we think about the magnitude of our deportation process, that means that thousands of U.S. citizens each year and tens of thousands in the course of a decade will be detained for substantial periods of time in absolute violation of the law and their civil rights," she says. So apparently thousands of US citizens were detained for weeks or even years in ICE detention facilities during Obama's Presidency but I'm sure we'll soon learn why 1 US citizen being detained for 2 days is the worst thing that's ever happened in America
The critical factor here: After a judge authenticated his birth certificate, he was not let go.
My understanding is all the other people held despite being citizens did not already have a judge declare they are a citizen.
Am I wrong? Were those other people still held even after a judge verified their birth certificate?
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The administration that says that "playing by the rules is inefficient" "don't bet a 1000" and "of course there will be mistakes" , "there shouldn't be rules just decisions", "don't say 'women' or we deport you!"
"Immigrants are all criminals" "Immigrants are released in the US on purpose off their governments"
"Immigrants eat pets"
"Court order? Shmort forder! Make us do it!"
Somehow makes all 'errors' look like the new modus operandi.
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On April 19 2025 05:48 KT_Elwood wrote:
The administration that says that "playing by the rules is inefficient" "don't bet a 1000" and "of course there will be mistakes" , "there shouldn't be rules just decisions", "don't say 'women' or we deport you!"
"Immigrants are all criminals" "Immigrants are released in the US on purpose off their governments"
"Immigrants eat pets"
"Court order? Shmort forder! Make us do it!"
Somehow makes all 'errors' look like the new modus operandi.
As Trump said during his first term "courts take to long, just take everyones guns away and worry about due process later".
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Northern Ireland24775 Posts
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United States24640 Posts
I love when stuff like that gets presented as evidence in court.
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We are truly living in the dumbest timeline
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On April 18 2025 13:58 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2025 08:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 18 2025 08:43 decafchicken wrote:On April 18 2025 07:38 Mohdoo wrote:Its hard to see this as anything other than an unhinged power play to assert dominance over the courts. 21 year old born in the US, with birth certificate already presented in court. Still being held. Lopez Gomez, 21, was born in Georgia. According to court records, he has been assigned a judge as well as a public defender. He appears to have been arrested and charged under an “anti-immigration” law passed in Florida two months ago, despite the fact that the law is currently under a temporary restraining order and isn’t supposed to be enforced.
https://newrepublic.com/post/194119/ice-detains-us-born-citizen-despite-birth-certificate We are so cooked mass enforcement will always lead to some mistakes. Assuming the facts outlined in the article are indeed facts... this single case is the tip of the iceberg of incorrect enforcement. i suggest donating to Project Innocence. https://innocenceproject.org/fuck batman, superman, and spiderman. Barry Scheck is a real hero. Project Innocence does a lot of good work, but it's a bit absurd how much work they have to do in the US. Wouldn't it be better if the justice system erred on the side of caution, and innocent until proven guilty had actual meaning for everyone (and not just the rich who can afford expensive lawyers)? That way Project Innocence would have far less work to do (not none, mistakes will probably always be made, but a lot less).
for a long while it was too easy to cross the borders into the USA and now the pendulum is swinging the other way.
mistakes always get made on both side within a massive situation like this.
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Northern Ireland24775 Posts
On April 19 2025 07:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2025 13:58 Acrofales wrote:On April 18 2025 08:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 18 2025 08:43 decafchicken wrote:On April 18 2025 07:38 Mohdoo wrote:Its hard to see this as anything other than an unhinged power play to assert dominance over the courts. 21 year old born in the US, with birth certificate already presented in court. Still being held. Lopez Gomez, 21, was born in Georgia. According to court records, he has been assigned a judge as well as a public defender. He appears to have been arrested and charged under an “anti-immigration” law passed in Florida two months ago, despite the fact that the law is currently under a temporary restraining order and isn’t supposed to be enforced.
https://newrepublic.com/post/194119/ice-detains-us-born-citizen-despite-birth-certificate We are so cooked mass enforcement will always lead to some mistakes. Assuming the facts outlined in the article are indeed facts... this single case is the tip of the iceberg of incorrect enforcement. i suggest donating to Project Innocence. https://innocenceproject.org/fuck batman, superman, and spiderman. Barry Scheck is a real hero. Project Innocence does a lot of good work, but it's a bit absurd how much work they have to do in the US. Wouldn't it be better if the justice system erred on the side of caution, and innocent until proven guilty had actual meaning for everyone (and not just the rich who can afford expensive lawyers)? That way Project Innocence would have far less work to do (not none, mistakes will probably always be made, but a lot less). for a long while it was too easy to cross the borders into the USA and now the pendulum is swinging the other way. mistakes always get made on both side within a massive situation like this.
Is it a mistake if you double down at every given opportunity to rectify a mistake?
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+ Show Spoiler +Could be a good slogan for penis growth pills.
Or a cancer gun for insubordinate employees.
Gonna edit this after my shift to see the context.
+ Show Spoiler +They require the efforts and energies of men and women, the collective choice for order and truth over disorder and opinion.
Glory to Arstotzka.
can build in new ways that let us do more with less, or we can borrow from the future. We have chosen to borrow from the future again and again. Our choice as a civilization is technology or debt. And we have chosen debt.
Today we choose a better way.
What does this even mean ?
Judging by the rest of the article, the corporations will get all the funding.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/iNUXbtw.png)
