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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8068 Posts
I have to say, I’m kind of happy that China calls Trump’s bs but I just can’t fathom what the economic consequences are going to be. This lunatic is going to plunge us into a 1929 style crisis. Btw I’m obviously also libertarian socialist: https://8values.github.io/results.html?e=89.7&d=86.7&g=82.8&s=84.6 | ||
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Impervious
Canada4217 Posts
On April 08 2025 19:54 Gahlo wrote: I greatly prefer the 8 Values test if we're playing "online quiz, tell me what my politics are". I'm not sure how accurate that political test really is. Normally on these types of tests I fall fairly even between left and right, but about halfway down the libertarian end. A lot of these questions that are definitely leaning towards a "progressive" answer seem to be leading to a misleading answer. I'm more or less what I'm answering in an agreeable way for a progressive because they are anti-authoritarian in nature by their wording. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23893 Posts
On April 09 2025 04:39 KwarK wrote: There’s one thing people can do about Trump but it’s a long shot. Might be a new person that likes his odds with Trump talking about not removing tariffs on Israel. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2766 Posts
On April 09 2025 05:38 Biff The Understudy wrote: Ok, so, 104% tarif on everything Chinese, that’s gonna be popular. I don’t see Xi blinking either. I have to say, I’m kind of happy that China calls Trump’s bs but I just can’t fathom what the economic consequences are going to be. This lunatic is going to plunge us into a 1929 style crisis. Btw I’m obviously also libertarian socialist: https://8values.github.io/results.html?e=89.7&d=86.7&g=82.8&s=84.6 I fail to see how 104 % tariff is that much worse than 54%. It sounds a lot worse. But in reality it's more like this. You want to buy a gadget for your phone. Chinese one and Vietnamese ones used to cost 20$. Now Vietnam is 30$ , China is 40$ American widget used to cost 29$. You buy that instead. Your heating system breaks. Chinese part used to cost 200$. There is no replacement. You buy Chinese part for 400$ because what else can you do? 50% is already an INSANE edge. If there is any domestic competition they were already within striking distance and 50% or 100% doesn't matter. If there was foreign competition you can buy for 20-30% more. If you have no choice you are just more fucked. Trump went all in against China and now he is x2 all-in. Doesn't really change much. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22283 Posts
I just hope Europe aren't a bunch of cowards and react harshly. Let Trump find out what happens in a world vs US trade war. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2695 Posts
On April 09 2025 05:17 Mohdoo wrote: Everything you're describing can wait until kids are out of school. It is silly pretending there is some urgent need for kids to do any of this. We are much better off erring on the side of over concern and over accommodation of a kid's high school education. Or not at all lmao Crunch culture is not a necessary part of a healthy industry - it's a product of being behind or fucking other stuff up, if not just unrealistic expectations being dictated from 'above'. I am glad Micro got an answer, and I'm curious where they go with it. The answer (as much as it was) isn't far from what I expected, straying towards "Child labour makes tough kids hurr hurr" | ||
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Impervious
Canada4217 Posts
On April 09 2025 05:38 Biff The Understudy wrote: Ok, so, 104% tarif on everything Chinese, that’s gonna be popular. I don’t see Xi blinking either. I have to say, I’m kind of happy that China calls Trump’s bs but I just can’t fathom what the economic consequences are going to be. This lunatic is going to plunge us into a 1929 style crisis. Btw I’m obviously also libertarian socialist: https://8values.github.io/results.html?e=89.7&d=86.7&g=82.8&s=84.6 China is a net exporter in this situation, and large and diverse enough where they are overall self-sufficient, so they realistically don't need to trade with the USA like we do in Canada. They can provide everything they need for their population through internal production or existing trade with other nations. Yea, it'd hurt their industries and growth in the short term, but I think they'll be absolutely fine standing up to the USA, even in a protracted trade war. They also have the authoritarian government needed to actually go through with it..... The USA is a net importer, so they would struggle in the short term if trade was cut off or significantly costlier in this trade war. The USA will have an extremely difficult time replacing their trade with China with trade from other countries, especially with these global tariffs being levied on every country, and it would take years to ramp up domestic production to replace this trade reduction. I think this is definitely going to hurt the average American more than the average Chinese citizen. Prices at something like Dollar Tree or Walmart are going to go up, which is really going to hurt the Americans who are already worse off. And I can't see Trump or the republican Congress and Senate do anything to help these people. And even if they do something, it wouldn't be enough, nor would it be quick enough. It'd lead to civil unrest far faster in the USA than in China. There isn't really an opposite lever that the USA has on China. China has the cards here. Some of the key industries in the USA can't survive with a significant import of certain raw goods that the USA doesn't have, or can't develop in a short period of time. A number of industries would run into issues if a trade war lasts more than a few months and current stockpiles of those materials is depleted. This will have an impact on their military, as their military relies on some key materials that China is threatening to cut off. If they do, that will really hurt the USA. While there is definitely some key goods that the USA exports to China that would be difficult to replace, there isn't really a reciprocal situation that I've heard about that is anywhere near as severe, so this is another area where China is holding the cards. I really think that this is going to hurt both countries in the long run, but China is going to come out of this as the winner. And given how intertwined Canada is with the USA, this is also going to indirectly hurt us too. Given how stubborn Trump is, I don't see him caving quickly, and at this point, I think Xi is probably fed up with Trump enough that he'll keep this up just to spite Trump. | ||
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Vivax
22299 Posts
On April 09 2025 06:19 Gorsameth wrote: If anyone needed yet another reason why there is no point in trying to stroke Trumps ego and give him a win, he goes and does that rofl. I just hope Europe aren't a bunch of cowards and react harshly. Let Trump find out what happens in a world vs US trade war. Escalation doesn‘t help much. Musk trying to mediate is a positive for a change. Best case scenario is to stop Trump from engaging in provocative actionism and support of the Russian invasion further. Dude needs to see a shrink. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23893 Posts
On April 09 2025 06:02 Impervious wrote: I'm not sure how accurate that political test really is. Normally on these types of tests I fall fairly even between left and right, but about halfway down the libertarian end. A lot of these questions that are definitely leaning towards a "progressive" answer seem to be leading to a misleading answer. I'm more or less what I'm answering in an agreeable way for a progressive because they are anti-authoritarian in nature by their wording. Yeah, clearly there's some contradictions at play if so many people are identifying as libertarian socialists. Libertarian socialists tend to see the working class as agents of social revolution, reject representative democracy and electoralism, and advocate for self-organisation and direct action as means to engage in class conflict. I did this in 2015 and basically explored every politic between third way Democrats and Anarchism before settling on revolutionary socialism as the best path forward, until/unless I'm shown otherwise. Thus far, the most compelling path forward presented here besides revolutionary socialism, has also been presented by another iteration of myself, so I'm not optimistic there is a better path forward than revolutionary socialism. Consequently, I don't believe anyone else here plans on finding one. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22283 Posts
On April 09 2025 06:29 Vivax wrote: You can't get Trump to stop, the best you can do is make other people stop Trump. Escalate and pressure Congress to take away the Executive's power over tariffs.Escalation doesn‘t help much. Musk trying to mediate is a positive for a change. Best case scenario is to stop Trump from engaging in provocative actionism and support of the Russian invasion further. Dude needs to see a shrink. | ||
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Impervious
Canada4217 Posts
On April 09 2025 06:36 GreenHorizons wrote: Yeah, clearly there's some contradictions at play if so many people are identifying as libertarian socialists. I did this in 2015 and basically explored every politic between third way Democrats and Anarchism before settling on revolutionary socialism as the best path forward, until/unless I'm shown otherwise. Thus far, the most compelling path forward presented here besides revolutionary socialism, has also been presented by another iteration of myself, so I'm not optimistic there is a better path forward than revolutionary socialism. Consequently, I don't believe anyone else here plans on finding one. Yea. Something like: "My religious values should be spread as much as possible." or "Children should be educated in religious or traditional values." or "Religion should play a role in government." or "Churches should be taxed the same way other institutions are taxed." as examples specifically asking about religion look like they lead towards a pro-or-anti-progressive answer in this quiz based on their wording, when in reality I'm more of a european-style libertarian than an american-style libertarian, and these questions don't do a good job of differentiating between the two different schools of libertarian thought. | ||
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Vivax
22299 Posts
On April 09 2025 06:44 Gorsameth wrote: You can't get Trump to stop, the best you can do is make other people stop Trump. Escalate and pressure Congress to take away the Executive's power over tariffs. Just wear a suit, say thank you, and throw him a bag | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18275 Posts
On April 09 2025 02:28 Ciaus237 wrote: I will join the choir: https://8values.github.io/results.html?e=71.8&d=61.1&g=63.3&s=75.4 (Social, peaceful, liberal, very progressive - while social I do like markets for some things and I think that reflects in the score). Also to be on topic: WTF is happening with the deportation case? The door feels open for Trump to just start throwing anyone he doesn't like in prisons far from any country they are a citizen of. On April 09 2025 02:52 Mohdoo wrote: Its another frustrating example of laws only existing as-written without any consideration of intent. As it currently stands, the US government can legally create a situation where someone is beyond their reach as a form of imprisonment. Somehow, delivering someone to a place where the person can't be tracked, against their will, is not the fault or responsibility of the government. I think in this case there isn't much a court can or should do. The courts are there to uphold the law, and it's too late to do that. Expecting the courts to intervene in diplomacy with a foreign country is just not going to happen. The gross miscarriage of justice happened before, when he was deported without due process. Heads should roll because of that. But that is not the court's place. That is congress' role, and they should probably be impeaching Kristi Noem (over this and about a billion other things, but definitely this). And congress is dropping the ball. They have been dropping the ball for ages, and they are definitely not changing that now. Your next option is to stand up for your rights and protest. But you forgot how to do that too. So... gg. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22283 Posts
On April 09 2025 07:07 Vivax wrote: Just wear a suit, say thank you, and throw him a bag You mean like Netanyahu just did to no avail? | ||
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Vivax
22299 Posts
On April 09 2025 07:31 Gorsameth wrote: You mean like Netanyahu just did to no avail? Netanyahu primarily represented his country. What Trump said is true, actually. He‘s not in a position to lower tariffs on Israel alone without looking worse than he already does. If I could assume that Ben N. tried to lower tariffs for all countries, of which I see no indication, I‘d agree with you. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26670 Posts
On April 09 2025 06:36 GreenHorizons wrote: Yeah, clearly there's some contradictions at play if so many people are identifying as libertarian socialists. I did this in 2015 and basically explored every politic between third way Democrats and Anarchism before settling on revolutionary socialism as the best path forward, until/unless I'm shown otherwise. Thus far, the most compelling path forward presented here besides revolutionary socialism, has also been presented by another iteration of myself, so I'm not optimistic there is a better path forward than revolutionary socialism. Consequently, I don't believe anyone else here plans on finding one. Can you get any more up your own arse? Aight you’ve convinced me, I’ll stop engaging on topics outside of The RevolutionTM, I’ll just outright not bother to reply to anyone on the right because I don’t want to be part of the ‘mean girls’ I might even call everyone else genocide enablers while I’m at it. Anyway, AFK a few months. Will check in and let the thread know how successful I’ve been. I’m pretty hopefully it’s gonna work I have go say | ||
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Sermokala
United States14105 Posts
On April 09 2025 06:17 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: I fail to see how 104 % tariff is that much worse than 54%. It sounds a lot worse. But in reality it's more like this. You want to buy a gadget for your phone. Chinese one and Vietnamese ones used to cost 20$. Now Vietnam is 30$ , China is 40$ American widget used to cost 29$. You buy that instead. Your heating system breaks. Chinese part used to cost 200$. There is no replacement. You buy Chinese part for 400$ because what else can you do? 50% is already an INSANE edge. If there is any domestic competition they were already within striking distance and 50% or 100% doesn't matter. If there was foreign competition you can buy for 20-30% more. If you have no choice you are just more fucked. Trump went all in against China and now he is x2 all-in. Doesn't really change much. China was able to dodge most of Trumps bluster his first term by stabbing America with their tariffs on soy beans and offshoring assembly or the final manufacturing step to other nations near it like Vietnam. If the replacement part is going to develop from somewhere its going to develop using the existing Chinese supply chain, just replacing the final step with a nation that has lower tariffs on it. Africa maybe who knows but the idea that these tariffs are going to widely reshape economics or that they're effective leverage is insane. There is almost nothing people agree with in economics other than stability is always better than chaos. Trump has decided to make the one economics mistake that everyone agrees with. | ||
KwarK
United States43934 Posts
As you say, stability matters. If you don’t have a stable market for your crops you don’t plant. If you’ve planted then you’re betting on stability. | ||
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Billyboy
1675 Posts
On April 08 2025 13:34 oBlade wrote: Magic word "bad faith" aside: the graph is the result when you take the test, not where you "put yourself." I do welcome you to take the test yourself while playing the role of your caricaturized version of me, since you know me better than I do, it would be instructive and/or hilarious to see the results. In the long term reducing the deficit by increasing exports is much preferable over reducing imports. Because the problem on balance is while Canadian oil and wood might add value, the US then loses more value by buying at a premium from countries like China with systems that are setup just to protect their industry. I don't personally think the US needs uniform trade - ex. near 0 deficits with every specific country. The US needs to pressure everyone to make up the deficits somewhere. Canada may or may not be the place to earn back a lot of that ground, but on Trump's side also NA was exempt from Liberation Day. Canada does block dairy and alcohol with huge tariffs as far as I know though. Before this trade war us Canadians would actively seek out made in American products. Now every single commercial mentions how Canadian there products are, even companies like McDonalds are advertising their potatoes and eggs are 100% Canadian. People are canceling so many vacations that our airlines are cutting flights by a third to the US. There is no way this does anything other than drastically reduce American exports to Canada. It is safe to say there is a similar story everywhere. And we are actively working and spending capital to increase our ability to sell our products else where. Your stated goal is not terrible, but there is no way this execution accomplishes any of it. You are pushing everyone away from yourselves. Zero nuance, zero thought, mistake filled, stupidity. Many Americans are starting to awaken that they elected a ignorant, arrogant, lazy man who they thought was oh so cool and edgy to the most important position in the world and there are in fact consequences to that. You can just add the Dairy "block" as just another lie you believed. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump-canada-us-dairy-trade-cusma-1.7483049 https://www.farmprogress.com/farm-policy/the-real-story-behind-canada-s-250-dairy-tariffs And yeah our retaliation was to tariff your alcohol, though many places just pulled it from the shelves. Under the Canada-United States-Mexico Agreement (CUSMA), 98 per cent of goods entering Canada from the U.S. have no tariffs – or at least, they didn't before the trade war. And the group that is maybe getting fucked the hardest is farmers, Trump is not helping them at all. They sell their products all over the world and they get their inputs from all over the world. On April 09 2025 09:38 KwarK wrote: The soybeans fiasco is exactly why Trump is not good at this. You don’t have leverage after the crops have already been planted. The farmers planted them with a market already in mind, at that point you’re basically locked in. Both parties want to perform as agreed because the trade provides value for both parties. But you can’t simply call it off on a whim, the soybeans don’t care, they’re not going to stop and wait while you argue. As you say, stability matters. If you don’t have a stable market for your crops you don’t plant. If you’ve planted then you’re betting on stability. You're even drastically underselling how bad this is. Most modern farming operations use crop rotations, which are incredibly important for the soil heath, different crops require different inputs (fertilizer and so on), these inputs do not work for all the crops in a rotation (most are 5 year), and the inputs often last more than a season (a guy was just talking the other day about he couldn't switch to lentils and had to go to a far less valuable crop for this reason). Short version not only are they planting now not knowing wtf the market is going to be like in 6 months investing all their capital, but decisions they made last year and the year before are effecting their options now and the choices they make now will impact the future. Even if all their costs were not wildly higher (which they are), they would be in a terrible situation not knowing. Cattle is not a heck of a lot better. We have tons of feedlots here, so many that we must import the caves to fatten them up, we can't breed enough. Our feedlot owners are buying far fewer at 25% more money. Do you think American ranchers knew that? They have no space nor the facilities to raise them. So they get to sell them for less, which won't drop the food prices because the meat didn't get cheaper, its just that the suppliers of it are paying a big fat tax. So all this means is food prices are going to go up, likely a lot, and the farmers won't be making more (likely less), so not like they will be able to invest in anything. And even if they had the cash, building a massive feedlot takes years, and we don't know tomorrow. Isn't Trump for the free market? It is strange because people wanted rightwing financially but they got whatever the fuck this is. But I mean they don't have to read he/him in as many emails, so over all a big win... | ||
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KwarK
United States43934 Posts
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