EPTOn February 01 2025 07:45 Gorsameth wrote:
They don't want it and repeatedly vote not to have it.
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The single biggest impracticality to implementing socialism in the US is the American people.On February 01 2025 07:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm not really appealing to the people that reject socialism as preferable to capitalism (not even sure who among 'the left' here would do this), I'm more talking to the people that would prefer socialism but find implementing it impractical for one reason or another (which is effectively everyone on 'the left' here).
On February 01 2025 07:14 maybenexttime wrote:
You still haven't shown how it's better. You've just stated it a bunch of times.
On February 01 2025 06:49 GreenHorizons wrote:
Turns out having a democracy and preventing fascism through socialism is hard work and we're either going to do that hard work or fall into fascism. I'd much rather do the hard work, as frustrating and unrewarding as it may be/feel sometimes.
I'd like to think I'd still be here saying all this if I was an affluent white cis man in a blue state (generically speaking). I know being higher up on the list of the targets of fascism than a centrist lib in a blue state certainly makes it feel more pressing for me though.
If/when the kind of people that constituted the majority of Democrats that didn't want Biden to run before the primary even started commit toward socialism, we'll be running circles around any far right-wing opposition.
On February 01 2025 05:44 KwarK wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
My point was that your democratic socialist vision is still made up of these same shitty Americans that vote today. You can have a federation of allied trade unions that elect their own leadership directly on the factory floor. Nothing will change. They’re still going to vote to expel all immigrants from the union on day 1, require all workers have union membership on day 2, and require the deportation of “scabs”, by which they’ll mean non union workers illegally working, on day 3.
Trump does very well with the poorly educated working class. They love his shit. Worshiping a billionaire New York luxury real estate developer is the closest the US has come to working class class consciousness in a century.
So how exactly does your new democratic socialistic system address that? How can you reconcile the awfulness of your American voters and your plan to hand power directly to them? You need to either come up with an excuse for why they’re not really as terrible as they very obviously are or drop the democracy part.
The simple answer is basically the same way the US system is supposed to (as it is with most systems). Use an imperfect framework to build upon itself toward "a more perfect union" of sorts. Socialism is a noticeably better framework, still gotta do the grueling work of engaging people to collaboratively alleviate our suffering while finding joy and fulfillment though. On February 01 2025 05:20 GreenHorizons wrote:
The moment in time to go back to would be post WWII and the ~60's. One problem then as it was in 2016, 2020, and is now, are the "white moderates" that ostensibly aren't fascist Trump supporters, but effectively end up being fascist enablers to protect their personal comforts (usually in vain).
I don't need everyone in the US to "make better choices", just a handful of posters here that already know they should be to relax a little bit and just try it for funsies. Worry about us doing just a little better here and now, we don't have to worry about if what we're doing is changing the world or not.
Joining a socialist org is a great thing to do. I recommend the video in my blog as something relatively easily accessible starting point to those here. Zam's suggestions on forming unions, local organizing, food bank stuff, and other mutual aid efforts are also aspects of socialism.
Can you truly not imagine how looking at an issue through a socialist perspective, absent the profit motive, could lead to tangibly different approaches/action we would take to address a variety of problems? For instance, how what we do about healthcare has a lot to do with whether someone believes they need to profit off your sickness or not?
On February 01 2025 04:43 KwarK wrote:
The US has democracy. The problem with the US isn't Trump, the problem with the US is Americans. I don't think you have a plan to overcome that. Let's say that 20 years ago a democratic socialist America was the status quo. It would have been dismantled just as easily by conservative media and the breakdown of political norms. Your Americans would love Trump just as much as real Americans do.
You spend so much time bashing America's choices and yet the best plan you can come up with is predicated on Americans somehow making better ones.
On February 01 2025 04:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
I agree with Zam on this. The question wasn't, as I understood it, "what is a socialist?" Though if Sadist or anyone else wants a hand finding a socialist they can relate to I'd be happy to assist their efforts.
The US has something it calls "democracy", but there's more to democracy in any meaningful sense than ~30-70% of the country voting every couple years (if Trump/the fascists/Putin let you anymore).
I'm advocating socialism. Socialism is democratic. I'm not "scared" to tell people we should live in a socialist, democratic country.
It's easy to see the difference between how you describe my posts and what is actually in them for anyone reading both in good faith.
To that point... I welcome anyone that wants to explore being a socialist while Democrats are busy appeasing Trump/fascists and bickering over ATC dwarfs and such, at least until it's time for them to tell you voting for evil (of the lesser kind) is your only hope (should Trump/the fascists allow it), to my Blog: Socialism Anyone?.
On February 01 2025 02:07 Sermokala wrote:
Its extra funny considering he doesn't follow any of his advice. If anyone is petulantly shitposting its GH. Dude offers no solutions, no open hands to convince anyone of anything. He's never tried to convince anyone of anything other than cynically trying to opine why everyone else doesn't abandon their positions and admit he was right all along.
I mean look at this shit. He can't even answer what a socialist is without trying to put himself as the example people should be following. He doesn't understand that he lives in a democracy and that people can seriously engage with the one form of government that we have. I know communists and they're at least unafraid to tell people they don't belive in democracy and want authoritarianism. This guy is just scared to tell people how he thinks we should be doleing out power in this country.
On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically.
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically.
Its extra funny considering he doesn't follow any of his advice. If anyone is petulantly shitposting its GH. Dude offers no solutions, no open hands to convince anyone of anything. He's never tried to convince anyone of anything other than cynically trying to opine why everyone else doesn't abandon their positions and admit he was right all along.
On February 01 2025 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Alternatively, we could be adults capable of participating in a democracy? I'd really like us to be that *eyes glisten dramatically with optimism*
[quote]
In the temporary sense and to be probably dangerously reductive, I basically mean approaching everything here with a sort of "how would a socialist I can relate to engage with this" and going from there.
[quote]
Alternatively, we could be adults capable of participating in a democracy? I'd really like us to be that *eyes glisten dramatically with optimism*
[quote]
In the temporary sense and to be probably dangerously reductive, I basically mean approaching everything here with a sort of "how would a socialist I can relate to engage with this" and going from there.
I mean look at this shit. He can't even answer what a socialist is without trying to put himself as the example people should be following. He doesn't understand that he lives in a democracy and that people can seriously engage with the one form of government that we have. I know communists and they're at least unafraid to tell people they don't belive in democracy and want authoritarianism. This guy is just scared to tell people how he thinks we should be doleing out power in this country.
I agree with Zam on this. The question wasn't, as I understood it, "what is a socialist?" Though if Sadist or anyone else wants a hand finding a socialist they can relate to I'd be happy to assist their efforts.
The US has something it calls "democracy", but there's more to democracy in any meaningful sense than ~30-70% of the country voting every couple years (if Trump/the fascists/Putin let you anymore).
I'm advocating socialism. Socialism is democratic. I'm not "scared" to tell people we should live in a socialist, democratic country.
It's easy to see the difference between how you describe my posts and what is actually in them for anyone reading both in good faith.
To that point... I welcome anyone that wants to explore being a socialist while Democrats are busy appeasing Trump/fascists and bickering over ATC dwarfs and such, at least until it's time for them to tell you voting for evil (of the lesser kind) is your only hope (should Trump/the fascists allow it), to my Blog: Socialism Anyone?.
The US has democracy. The problem with the US isn't Trump, the problem with the US is Americans. I don't think you have a plan to overcome that. Let's say that 20 years ago a democratic socialist America was the status quo. It would have been dismantled just as easily by conservative media and the breakdown of political norms. Your Americans would love Trump just as much as real Americans do.
You spend so much time bashing America's choices and yet the best plan you can come up with is predicated on Americans somehow making better ones.
The moment in time to go back to would be post WWII and the ~60's. One problem then as it was in 2016, 2020, and is now, are the "white moderates" that ostensibly aren't fascist Trump supporters, but effectively end up being fascist enablers to protect their personal comforts (usually in vain).
I don't need everyone in the US to "make better choices", just a handful of posters here that already know they should be to relax a little bit and just try it for funsies. Worry about us doing just a little better here and now, we don't have to worry about if what we're doing is changing the world or not.
On February 01 2025 04:56 Sadist wrote:
My question was more along the lines of what he meant "be socialist". Join a political party? Like I dont understand what it means in practical terms. If it means look at the world through X lens I dont understand how that helps anything.
Like im looking for a tangible action on what being a socialist is and how its any different from where we are now.
My question was more along the lines of what he meant "be socialist". Join a political party? Like I dont understand what it means in practical terms. If it means look at the world through X lens I dont understand how that helps anything.
Like im looking for a tangible action on what being a socialist is and how its any different from where we are now.
Joining a socialist org is a great thing to do. I recommend the video in my blog as something relatively easily accessible starting point to those here. Zam's suggestions on forming unions, local organizing, food bank stuff, and other mutual aid efforts are also aspects of socialism.
Can you truly not imagine how looking at an issue through a socialist perspective, absent the profit motive, could lead to tangibly different approaches/action we would take to address a variety of problems? For instance, how what we do about healthcare has a lot to do with whether someone believes they need to profit off your sickness or not?
+ Show Spoiler +
This doesn’t address my point. Agreeing with me about the trashness of the American voter and saying it’s been unfixable for even longer than I said doesn’t answer the question.
My point was that your democratic socialist vision is still made up of these same shitty Americans that vote today. You can have a federation of allied trade unions that elect their own leadership directly on the factory floor. Nothing will change. They’re still going to vote to expel all immigrants from the union on day 1, require all workers have union membership on day 2, and require the deportation of “scabs”, by which they’ll mean non union workers illegally working, on day 3.
Trump does very well with the poorly educated working class. They love his shit. Worshiping a billionaire New York luxury real estate developer is the closest the US has come to working class class consciousness in a century.
So how exactly does your new democratic socialistic system address that? How can you reconcile the awfulness of your American voters and your plan to hand power directly to them? You need to either come up with an excuse for why they’re not really as terrible as they very obviously are or drop the democracy part.
Turns out having a democracy and preventing fascism through socialism is hard work and we're either going to do that hard work or fall into fascism. I'd much rather do the hard work, as frustrating and unrewarding as it may be/feel sometimes.
I'd like to think I'd still be here saying all this if I was an affluent white cis man in a blue state (generically speaking). I know being higher up on the list of the targets of fascism than a centrist lib in a blue state certainly makes it feel more pressing for me though.
If/when the kind of people that constituted the majority of Democrats that didn't want Biden to run before the primary even started commit toward socialism, we'll be running circles around any far right-wing opposition.
You still haven't shown how it's better. You've just stated it a bunch of times.
I'm not really appealing to the people that reject socialism as preferable to capitalism (not even sure who among 'the left' here would do this), I'm more talking to the people that would prefer socialism but find implementing it impractical for one reason or another (which is effectively everyone on 'the left' here).
They don't want it and repeatedly vote not to have it.
I'm familiar. That's why I'm focusing on the people right here, right now that already claim to prefer socialism. They can try being socialists without the rest of the people in the US doing it first, or using them as an excuse not to try.
