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On February 01 2025 02:07 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Its extra funny considering he doesn't follow any of his advice. If anyone is petulantly shitposting its GH. Dude offers no solutions, no open hands to convince anyone of anything. He's never tried to convince anyone of anything other than cynically trying to opine why everyone else doesn't abandon their positions and admit he was right all along. Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Alternatively, we could be adults capable of participating in a democracy? I'd really like us to be that *eyes glisten dramatically with optimism* On February 01 2025 01:55 Sadist wrote:On February 01 2025 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:54 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:20 Magic Powers wrote:On February 01 2025 00:00 Gorsameth wrote:On January 31 2025 23:47 WombaT wrote:
It’s the usual disingenuous bullshit that isn’t really worth entertaining, one will be subjected to (hopefully) ineffective gaslighting and an almost 0% chance of shifting opinions.
We’ve been headbutting that wall since 2016 to little real effect.
Whether it takes the form of ‘revolutionary socialism’ or not, GH is 100% correct that winning internet arguments with Fascist-enablers does shit all, and building up robust community efforts is the way to go.
So we just have to ban Blackjack and oBlade. Because that's the only way your going to stop this from not happening constantly for the next 4 years. Admittedly it's often not easy to ignore, but I can say that I carry a little bit less negative energy in myself through the day when I have the discipline to avoid pointless topics such as this one. I've also stopped responding to certain individuals for many months (before I finally cave one time and then have to tell myself to never respond). It's funny because most posters can mostly ignore criticism/discussion from their left but we know they can't help themselves when it comes to stuff like spending pages shitposting about ATC dwarfs with oBlade. It's even worse right now since Democrats functionally have no leadership or message that Trump and his ilk are distracting the country from. So they literally end up asking for it. Ah yes, Sadist asking Oblade to defend the latest idiotic thing Trump said on teamliquid is why you're still 0 for 0 on revolutions. He should do better. Forget the revolutionary part, you guys need to be socialists ASAP or fascism is going to keep winning while your Democrat politicians collaborate with them. None of you libs/Dems have a real argument not to be socialists. It was so that you could beat Trump. That failed spectacularly. Nothing stopping you all from spending the next 6 months acting in good faith as socialists just to try it out. Well, nothing except your stubbornly undue hubris. Democrats have nothing else/better for you to be doing, and I promise bickering/shitposting with oBlade about dwarfs/genitals isn't more useful than developing a socialist worldview in community with your comrades. Can you clarify what you mean by becoming socialists? In the temporary sense and to be probably dangerously reductive, I basically mean approaching everything here with a sort of "how would a socialist I can relate to engage with this" and going from there. I mean look at this shit. He can't even answer what a socialist is without trying to put himself as the example people should be following. He doesn't understand that he lives in a democracy and that people can seriously engage with the one form of government that we have. I know communists and they're at least unafraid to tell people they don't belive in democracy and want authoritarianism. This guy is just scared to tell people how he thinks we should be doleing out power in this country.
I agree with Zam on this. The question wasn't, as I understood it, "what is a socialist?" Though if Sadist or anyone else wants a hand finding a socialist they can relate to I'd be happy to assist their efforts.
The US has something it calls "democracy", but there's more to democracy in any meaningful sense than ~30-70% of the country voting every couple years (if Trump/the fascists/Putin let you anymore).
I'm advocating socialism. Socialism is democratic. I'm not "scared" to tell people we should live in a socialist, democratic country.
It's easy to see the difference between how you describe my posts and what is actually in them for anyone reading both in good faith.
To that point... I welcome anyone that wants to explore being a socialist while Democrats are busy appeasing Trump/fascists and bickering over ATC dwarfs and such, at least until it's time for them to tell you voting for evil (of the lesser kind) is your only hope (should Trump/the fascists allow it), to my Blog: Socialism Anyone?.
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On February 01 2025 04:15 Lmui wrote:
As far as the collision in DC goes, the optics are terrible for Trump, but frankly, it would've likely happened in any other circumstance as well. The lack of ATCs has been a problem for a long time now, it's not a new problem. The ATC didn't do anything wrong as far as I can tell, the helicopter pilot requested visual separation and got it, which puts the onus on avoidance with the helicopter pilot.
Blancolirio is probably the best explainer for the situation here.
That particular stretch of airspace is really tight - the helicopter route is 100-150ft below the approach glideslope for runway 33. The helicopter pilot was supposed to be flying at a maximum of 200ft, but was at 300-350 ft, and failed the visual separation that was requested (Pass behind the jet)
Edit:: Doesn't excuse the absolute madness that is Trump's response to the incident, just absolving him and his administration of causing the crash. No one sane was going to blame him or his administration of the crash unless something came out that directly pointed to them. What people were interested in is how Trump and his administration would handle a big disaster.
And again as expected by anyone sane he entirely fucked it up immediately.
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United States42794 Posts
On February 01 2025 04:28 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 02:07 Sermokala wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Its extra funny considering he doesn't follow any of his advice. If anyone is petulantly shitposting its GH. Dude offers no solutions, no open hands to convince anyone of anything. He's never tried to convince anyone of anything other than cynically trying to opine why everyone else doesn't abandon their positions and admit he was right all along. On February 01 2025 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Alternatively, we could be adults capable of participating in a democracy? I'd really like us to be that *eyes glisten dramatically with optimism* On February 01 2025 01:55 Sadist wrote:On February 01 2025 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:54 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:20 Magic Powers wrote:On February 01 2025 00:00 Gorsameth wrote:On January 31 2025 23:47 WombaT wrote:
It’s the usual disingenuous bullshit that isn’t really worth entertaining, one will be subjected to (hopefully) ineffective gaslighting and an almost 0% chance of shifting opinions.
We’ve been headbutting that wall since 2016 to little real effect.
Whether it takes the form of ‘revolutionary socialism’ or not, GH is 100% correct that winning internet arguments with Fascist-enablers does shit all, and building up robust community efforts is the way to go.
So we just have to ban Blackjack and oBlade. Because that's the only way your going to stop this from not happening constantly for the next 4 years. Admittedly it's often not easy to ignore, but I can say that I carry a little bit less negative energy in myself through the day when I have the discipline to avoid pointless topics such as this one. I've also stopped responding to certain individuals for many months (before I finally cave one time and then have to tell myself to never respond). It's funny because most posters can mostly ignore criticism/discussion from their left but we know they can't help themselves when it comes to stuff like spending pages shitposting about ATC dwarfs with oBlade. It's even worse right now since Democrats functionally have no leadership or message that Trump and his ilk are distracting the country from. So they literally end up asking for it. Ah yes, Sadist asking Oblade to defend the latest idiotic thing Trump said on teamliquid is why you're still 0 for 0 on revolutions. He should do better. Forget the revolutionary part, you guys need to be socialists ASAP or fascism is going to keep winning while your Democrat politicians collaborate with them. None of you libs/Dems have a real argument not to be socialists. It was so that you could beat Trump. That failed spectacularly. Nothing stopping you all from spending the next 6 months acting in good faith as socialists just to try it out. Well, nothing except your stubbornly undue hubris. Democrats have nothing else/better for you to be doing, and I promise bickering/shitposting with oBlade about dwarfs/genitals isn't more useful than developing a socialist worldview in community with your comrades. Can you clarify what you mean by becoming socialists? In the temporary sense and to be probably dangerously reductive, I basically mean approaching everything here with a sort of "how would a socialist I can relate to engage with this" and going from there. I mean look at this shit. He can't even answer what a socialist is without trying to put himself as the example people should be following. He doesn't understand that he lives in a democracy and that people can seriously engage with the one form of government that we have. I know communists and they're at least unafraid to tell people they don't belive in democracy and want authoritarianism. This guy is just scared to tell people how he thinks we should be doleing out power in this country. I agree with Zam on this. The question wasn't, as I understood it, "what is a socialist?" Though if Sadist or anyone else wants a hand finding a socialist they can relate to I'd be happy to assist their efforts. The US has something it calls "democracy", but there's more to democracy in any meaningful sense than ~30-70% of the country voting every couple years (if Trump/the fascists/Putin let you anymore). I'm advocating socialism. Socialism is democratic. I'm not "scared" to tell people we should live in a socialist, democratic country. It's easy to see the difference between how you describe my posts and what is actually in them for anyone reading both in good faith. To that point... I welcome anyone that wants to explore being a socialist while Democrats are busy appeasing Trump/fascists and bickering over ATC dwarfs and such, at least until it's time for them to tell you voting for evil (of the lesser kind) is your only hope (should Trump/the fascists allow it), to my Blog: Socialism Anyone?.
The US has democracy. The problem with the US isn't Trump, the problem with the US is Americans. I don't think you have a plan to overcome that. Let's say that 20 years ago a democratic socialist America was the status quo. It would have been dismantled just as easily by conservative media and the breakdown of political norms. Your Americans would love Trump just as much as real Americans do.
You spend so much time bashing America's choices and yet the best plan you can come up with is predicated on Americans somehow making better ones.
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My question was more along the lines of what he meant "be socialist". Join a political party? Like I dont understand what it means in practical terms. If it means look at the world through X lens I dont understand how that helps anything.
Like im looking for a tangible action on what being a socialist is and how its any different from where we are now.
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On February 01 2025 04:43 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 04:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 02:07 Sermokala wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Its extra funny considering he doesn't follow any of his advice. If anyone is petulantly shitposting its GH. Dude offers no solutions, no open hands to convince anyone of anything. He's never tried to convince anyone of anything other than cynically trying to opine why everyone else doesn't abandon their positions and admit he was right all along. On February 01 2025 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Alternatively, we could be adults capable of participating in a democracy? I'd really like us to be that *eyes glisten dramatically with optimism* On February 01 2025 01:55 Sadist wrote:On February 01 2025 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:54 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:20 Magic Powers wrote:On February 01 2025 00:00 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]So we just have to ban Blackjack and oBlade. Because that's the only way your going to stop this from not happening constantly for the next 4 years.
Admittedly it's often not easy to ignore, but I can say that I carry a little bit less negative energy in myself through the day when I have the discipline to avoid pointless topics such as this one. I've also stopped responding to certain individuals for many months (before I finally cave one time and then have to tell myself to never respond). It's funny because most posters can mostly ignore criticism/discussion from their left but we know they can't help themselves when it comes to stuff like spending pages shitposting about ATC dwarfs with oBlade. It's even worse right now since Democrats functionally have no leadership or message that Trump and his ilk are distracting the country from. So they literally end up asking for it. Ah yes, Sadist asking Oblade to defend the latest idiotic thing Trump said on teamliquid is why you're still 0 for 0 on revolutions. He should do better. Forget the revolutionary part, you guys need to be socialists ASAP or fascism is going to keep winning while your Democrat politicians collaborate with them. None of you libs/Dems have a real argument not to be socialists. It was so that you could beat Trump. That failed spectacularly. Nothing stopping you all from spending the next 6 months acting in good faith as socialists just to try it out. Well, nothing except your stubbornly undue hubris. Democrats have nothing else/better for you to be doing, and I promise bickering/shitposting with oBlade about dwarfs/genitals isn't more useful than developing a socialist worldview in community with your comrades. Can you clarify what you mean by becoming socialists? In the temporary sense and to be probably dangerously reductive, I basically mean approaching everything here with a sort of "how would a socialist I can relate to engage with this" and going from there. I mean look at this shit. He can't even answer what a socialist is without trying to put himself as the example people should be following. He doesn't understand that he lives in a democracy and that people can seriously engage with the one form of government that we have. I know communists and they're at least unafraid to tell people they don't belive in democracy and want authoritarianism. This guy is just scared to tell people how he thinks we should be doleing out power in this country. I agree with Zam on this. The question wasn't, as I understood it, "what is a socialist?" Though if Sadist or anyone else wants a hand finding a socialist they can relate to I'd be happy to assist their efforts. The US has something it calls "democracy", but there's more to democracy in any meaningful sense than ~30-70% of the country voting every couple years (if Trump/the fascists/Putin let you anymore). I'm advocating socialism. Socialism is democratic. I'm not "scared" to tell people we should live in a socialist, democratic country. It's easy to see the difference between how you describe my posts and what is actually in them for anyone reading both in good faith. To that point... I welcome anyone that wants to explore being a socialist while Democrats are busy appeasing Trump/fascists and bickering over ATC dwarfs and such, at least until it's time for them to tell you voting for evil (of the lesser kind) is your only hope (should Trump/the fascists allow it), to my Blog: Socialism Anyone?. The US has democracy. The problem with the US isn't Trump, the problem with the US is Americans. I don't think you have a plan to overcome that. Let's say that 20 years ago a democratic socialist America was the status quo. It would have been dismantled just as easily by conservative media and the breakdown of political norms. Your Americans would love Trump just as much as real Americans do. You spend so much time bashing America's choices and yet the best plan you can come up with is predicated on Americans somehow making better ones.
Well, to be fair, isn't the whole socialist/communist utopia predicated on humans not being humans?
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On February 01 2025 04:56 Sadist wrote:
My question was more along the lines of what he meant "be socialist". Join a political party? Like I dont understand what it means in practical terms. If it means look at the world through X lens I dont understand how that helps anything.
Like im looking for a tangible action on what being a socialist is and how its any different from where we are now.
As someone who also doesnt have a firm grasp on what being a socialist means with regards to political action, I have to imagine its probably at least things like forming unions, local organizing, food bank stuff, etc. but like I said I really dont know, at this point I'm more anti-capitalist than pro-anything. I'll take whatever is improving everyone's lives and not leaving people out in the cold, or what have you
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Northern Ireland25497 Posts
On February 01 2025 04:43 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 04:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 02:07 Sermokala wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Its extra funny considering he doesn't follow any of his advice. If anyone is petulantly shitposting its GH. Dude offers no solutions, no open hands to convince anyone of anything. He's never tried to convince anyone of anything other than cynically trying to opine why everyone else doesn't abandon their positions and admit he was right all along. On February 01 2025 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Alternatively, we could be adults capable of participating in a democracy? I'd really like us to be that *eyes glisten dramatically with optimism* On February 01 2025 01:55 Sadist wrote:On February 01 2025 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:54 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:20 Magic Powers wrote:On February 01 2025 00:00 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]So we just have to ban Blackjack and oBlade. Because that's the only way your going to stop this from not happening constantly for the next 4 years.
Admittedly it's often not easy to ignore, but I can say that I carry a little bit less negative energy in myself through the day when I have the discipline to avoid pointless topics such as this one. I've also stopped responding to certain individuals for many months (before I finally cave one time and then have to tell myself to never respond). It's funny because most posters can mostly ignore criticism/discussion from their left but we know they can't help themselves when it comes to stuff like spending pages shitposting about ATC dwarfs with oBlade. It's even worse right now since Democrats functionally have no leadership or message that Trump and his ilk are distracting the country from. So they literally end up asking for it. Ah yes, Sadist asking Oblade to defend the latest idiotic thing Trump said on teamliquid is why you're still 0 for 0 on revolutions. He should do better. Forget the revolutionary part, you guys need to be socialists ASAP or fascism is going to keep winning while your Democrat politicians collaborate with them. None of you libs/Dems have a real argument not to be socialists. It was so that you could beat Trump. That failed spectacularly. Nothing stopping you all from spending the next 6 months acting in good faith as socialists just to try it out. Well, nothing except your stubbornly undue hubris. Democrats have nothing else/better for you to be doing, and I promise bickering/shitposting with oBlade about dwarfs/genitals isn't more useful than developing a socialist worldview in community with your comrades. Can you clarify what you mean by becoming socialists? In the temporary sense and to be probably dangerously reductive, I basically mean approaching everything here with a sort of "how would a socialist I can relate to engage with this" and going from there. I mean look at this shit. He can't even answer what a socialist is without trying to put himself as the example people should be following. He doesn't understand that he lives in a democracy and that people can seriously engage with the one form of government that we have. I know communists and they're at least unafraid to tell people they don't belive in democracy and want authoritarianism. This guy is just scared to tell people how he thinks we should be doleing out power in this country. I agree with Zam on this. The question wasn't, as I understood it, "what is a socialist?" Though if Sadist or anyone else wants a hand finding a socialist they can relate to I'd be happy to assist their efforts. The US has something it calls "democracy", but there's more to democracy in any meaningful sense than ~30-70% of the country voting every couple years (if Trump/the fascists/Putin let you anymore). I'm advocating socialism. Socialism is democratic. I'm not "scared" to tell people we should live in a socialist, democratic country. It's easy to see the difference between how you describe my posts and what is actually in them for anyone reading both in good faith. To that point... I welcome anyone that wants to explore being a socialist while Democrats are busy appeasing Trump/fascists and bickering over ATC dwarfs and such, at least until it's time for them to tell you voting for evil (of the lesser kind) is your only hope (should Trump/the fascists allow it), to my Blog: Socialism Anyone?. The US has democracy. The problem with the US isn't Trump, the problem with the US is Americans. I don't think you have a plan to overcome that. Let's say that 20 years ago a democratic socialist America was the status quo. It would have been dismantled just as easily by conservative media and the breakdown of political norms. Your Americans would love Trump just as much as real Americans do. You spend so much time bashing America's choices and yet the best plan you can come up with is predicated on Americans somehow making better ones.
What other path out of this mess is there outside of some wholesale revolution, which IMO is fanciful in the extreme anyway?
There are better hypothetical timelines available. Ones where the Democratic Party didn’t take the left’s vote for granted and didn’t continually piss them off for one.
Here’s how Bernie can still winBarnard Sandles still loses in his cracks for nomination IMO without fuckery, so why indulge in fuckery? Give him the shot, and try to incorporate aspects of his platform that resonated, and clearly did resonate.
To just pick at one thing I perceive as a strategic failure of the Dems since 2015/16 thru now.
Trump is abhorred as much as he’s adored really. If he was pulling supermajorities and had a 70%+ approval rating from the country at large, then yes, shit’s basically fucked fam in the medium thru long-term. That kind of overwhelming support isn’t there though, and elections are eminently winnable if you don’t shit the bed strategically.
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On February 01 2025 04:43 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 04:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 02:07 Sermokala wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Its extra funny considering he doesn't follow any of his advice. If anyone is petulantly shitposting its GH. Dude offers no solutions, no open hands to convince anyone of anything. He's never tried to convince anyone of anything other than cynically trying to opine why everyone else doesn't abandon their positions and admit he was right all along. On February 01 2025 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Alternatively, we could be adults capable of participating in a democracy? I'd really like us to be that *eyes glisten dramatically with optimism* On February 01 2025 01:55 Sadist wrote:On February 01 2025 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:54 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:20 Magic Powers wrote:On February 01 2025 00:00 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]So we just have to ban Blackjack and oBlade. Because that's the only way your going to stop this from not happening constantly for the next 4 years.
Admittedly it's often not easy to ignore, but I can say that I carry a little bit less negative energy in myself through the day when I have the discipline to avoid pointless topics such as this one. I've also stopped responding to certain individuals for many months (before I finally cave one time and then have to tell myself to never respond). It's funny because most posters can mostly ignore criticism/discussion from their left but we know they can't help themselves when it comes to stuff like spending pages shitposting about ATC dwarfs with oBlade. It's even worse right now since Democrats functionally have no leadership or message that Trump and his ilk are distracting the country from. So they literally end up asking for it. Ah yes, Sadist asking Oblade to defend the latest idiotic thing Trump said on teamliquid is why you're still 0 for 0 on revolutions. He should do better. Forget the revolutionary part, you guys need to be socialists ASAP or fascism is going to keep winning while your Democrat politicians collaborate with them. None of you libs/Dems have a real argument not to be socialists. It was so that you could beat Trump. That failed spectacularly. Nothing stopping you all from spending the next 6 months acting in good faith as socialists just to try it out. Well, nothing except your stubbornly undue hubris. Democrats have nothing else/better for you to be doing, and I promise bickering/shitposting with oBlade about dwarfs/genitals isn't more useful than developing a socialist worldview in community with your comrades. Can you clarify what you mean by becoming socialists? In the temporary sense and to be probably dangerously reductive, I basically mean approaching everything here with a sort of "how would a socialist I can relate to engage with this" and going from there. I mean look at this shit. He can't even answer what a socialist is without trying to put himself as the example people should be following. He doesn't understand that he lives in a democracy and that people can seriously engage with the one form of government that we have. I know communists and they're at least unafraid to tell people they don't belive in democracy and want authoritarianism. This guy is just scared to tell people how he thinks we should be doleing out power in this country. I agree with Zam on this. The question wasn't, as I understood it, "what is a socialist?" Though if Sadist or anyone else wants a hand finding a socialist they can relate to I'd be happy to assist their efforts. The US has something it calls "democracy", but there's more to democracy in any meaningful sense than ~30-70% of the country voting every couple years (if Trump/the fascists/Putin let you anymore). I'm advocating socialism. Socialism is democratic. I'm not "scared" to tell people we should live in a socialist, democratic country. It's easy to see the difference between how you describe my posts and what is actually in them for anyone reading both in good faith. To that point... I welcome anyone that wants to explore being a socialist while Democrats are busy appeasing Trump/fascists and bickering over ATC dwarfs and such, at least until it's time for them to tell you voting for evil (of the lesser kind) is your only hope (should Trump/the fascists allow it), to my Blog: Socialism Anyone?. The US has democracy. The problem with the US isn't Trump, the problem with the US is Americans. I don't think you have a plan to overcome that. Let's say that 20 years ago a democratic socialist America was the status quo. It would have been dismantled just as easily by conservative media and the breakdown of political norms. Your Americans would love Trump just as much as real Americans do. You spend so much time bashing America's choices and yet the best plan you can come up with is predicated on Americans somehow making better ones.
The moment in time to go back to would be post WWII and the ~60's. One problem then as it was in 2016, 2020, and is now, are the "white moderates" that ostensibly aren't fascist Trump supporters, but effectively end up being fascist enablers to protect their personal comforts (usually in vain).
I don't need everyone in the US to "make better choices", just a handful of posters here that already know they should be to relax a little bit and just try it for funsies. Worry about us doing just a little better here and now, we don't have to worry about if what we're doing is changing the world or not.
On February 01 2025 04:56 Sadist wrote:
My question was more along the lines of what he meant "be socialist". Join a political party? Like I dont understand what it means in practical terms. If it means look at the world through X lens I dont understand how that helps anything.
Like im looking for a tangible action on what being a socialist is and how its any different from where we are now.
Joining a socialist org is a great thing to do. I recommend the video in my blog as something relatively easily accessible starting point to those here. Zam's suggestions on forming unions, local organizing, food bank stuff, and other mutual aid efforts are also aspects of socialism.
Can you truly not imagine how looking at an issue through a socialist perspective, absent the profit motive, could lead to tangibly different approaches/action we would take to address a variety of problems? For instance, how what we do about healthcare has a lot to do with whether someone believes they need to profit off your sickness or not?
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Trump is abhorred as much as he’s adored really. If he was pulling supermajorities and had a 70%+ approval rating from the country at large, then yes, shit’s basically fucked fam in the medium thru long-term. That kind of overwhelming support isn’t there though, and elections are eminently winnable if you don’t shit the bed strategically.
To piggyback on this a little, neither party is getting the majority of the country's vote, Democrats are depressing to vote for because theyre mealymouth liars (or at least perceived to be, liars or incompetent) who dont have beliefs beyond Raise Those Funds! and Republicans are regressive sycophantic psychopaths.
Americans might not be "the problem" if America's politicians and political institutions weren't actually a much bigger problem.
Ranked choice voting, Voting Day as a holiday, there are a ton of potential ways to increase involvement and representation and make voting seem like less of a waste of your morning, but our politicians dont want any of that, they dont want to represent people, they want to make lots of money and get cushy jobs and get lobbied, Americans have no serious representation, only corporations do.
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United States42794 Posts
On February 01 2025 05:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 04:43 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 04:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 02:07 Sermokala wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Its extra funny considering he doesn't follow any of his advice. If anyone is petulantly shitposting its GH. Dude offers no solutions, no open hands to convince anyone of anything. He's never tried to convince anyone of anything other than cynically trying to opine why everyone else doesn't abandon their positions and admit he was right all along. On February 01 2025 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Alternatively, we could be adults capable of participating in a democracy? I'd really like us to be that *eyes glisten dramatically with optimism* On February 01 2025 01:55 Sadist wrote:On February 01 2025 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:54 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:20 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Admittedly it's often not easy to ignore, but I can say that I carry a little bit less negative energy in myself through the day when I have the discipline to avoid pointless topics such as this one.
I've also stopped responding to certain individuals for many months (before I finally cave one time and then have to tell myself to never respond). It's funny because most posters can mostly ignore criticism/discussion from their left but we know they can't help themselves when it comes to stuff like spending pages shitposting about ATC dwarfs with oBlade. It's even worse right now since Democrats functionally have no leadership or message that Trump and his ilk are distracting the country from. So they literally end up asking for it. Ah yes, Sadist asking Oblade to defend the latest idiotic thing Trump said on teamliquid is why you're still 0 for 0 on revolutions. He should do better. Forget the revolutionary part, you guys need to be socialists ASAP or fascism is going to keep winning while your Democrat politicians collaborate with them. None of you libs/Dems have a real argument not to be socialists. It was so that you could beat Trump. That failed spectacularly. Nothing stopping you all from spending the next 6 months acting in good faith as socialists just to try it out. Well, nothing except your stubbornly undue hubris. Democrats have nothing else/better for you to be doing, and I promise bickering/shitposting with oBlade about dwarfs/genitals isn't more useful than developing a socialist worldview in community with your comrades. Can you clarify what you mean by becoming socialists? In the temporary sense and to be probably dangerously reductive, I basically mean approaching everything here with a sort of "how would a socialist I can relate to engage with this" and going from there. I mean look at this shit. He can't even answer what a socialist is without trying to put himself as the example people should be following. He doesn't understand that he lives in a democracy and that people can seriously engage with the one form of government that we have. I know communists and they're at least unafraid to tell people they don't belive in democracy and want authoritarianism. This guy is just scared to tell people how he thinks we should be doleing out power in this country. I agree with Zam on this. The question wasn't, as I understood it, "what is a socialist?" Though if Sadist or anyone else wants a hand finding a socialist they can relate to I'd be happy to assist their efforts. The US has something it calls "democracy", but there's more to democracy in any meaningful sense than ~30-70% of the country voting every couple years (if Trump/the fascists/Putin let you anymore). I'm advocating socialism. Socialism is democratic. I'm not "scared" to tell people we should live in a socialist, democratic country. It's easy to see the difference between how you describe my posts and what is actually in them for anyone reading both in good faith. To that point... I welcome anyone that wants to explore being a socialist while Democrats are busy appeasing Trump/fascists and bickering over ATC dwarfs and such, at least until it's time for them to tell you voting for evil (of the lesser kind) is your only hope (should Trump/the fascists allow it), to my Blog: Socialism Anyone?. The US has democracy. The problem with the US isn't Trump, the problem with the US is Americans. I don't think you have a plan to overcome that. Let's say that 20 years ago a democratic socialist America was the status quo. It would have been dismantled just as easily by conservative media and the breakdown of political norms. Your Americans would love Trump just as much as real Americans do. You spend so much time bashing America's choices and yet the best plan you can come up with is predicated on Americans somehow making better ones. The moment in time to go back to would be post WWII and the ~60's. One problem then as it was in 2016, 2020, and is now, are the "white moderates" that ostensibly aren't fascist Trump supporters, but effectively end up being fascist enablers to protect their personal comforts (usually in vain). I don't need everyone in the US to "make better choices", just a handful of posters here that already know they should be to relax a little bit and just try it for funsies. Worry about us doing just a little better here and now, we don't have to worry about if what we're doing is changing the world or not. Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 04:56 Sadist wrote:
My question was more along the lines of what he meant "be socialist". Join a political party? Like I dont understand what it means in practical terms. If it means look at the world through X lens I dont understand how that helps anything.
Like im looking for a tangible action on what being a socialist is and how its any different from where we are now.
Joining a socialist org is a great thing to do. I recommend the video in my blog as something relatively easily accessible starting point to those here. Zam's suggestions on forming unions, local organizing, food bank stuff, and other mutual aid efforts are also aspects of socialism. Can you truly not imagine how looking at an issue through a socialist perspective, absent the profit motive, could lead to tangibly different approaches/action we would take to address a variety of problems? For instance, how what we do about healthcare has a lot to do with whether someone believes they need to profit off your sickness or not?
This doesn’t address my point. Agreeing with me about the trashness of the American voter and saying it’s been unfixable for even longer than I said doesn’t answer the question.
My point was that your democratic socialist vision is still made up of these same shitty Americans that vote today. You can have a federation of allied trade unions that elect their own leadership directly on the factory floor. Nothing will change. They’re still going to vote to expel all immigrants from the union on day 1, require all workers have union membership on day 2, and require the deportation of “scabs”, by which they’ll mean non union workers illegally working, on day 3.
Trump does very well with the poorly educated working class. They love his shit. Worshiping a billionaire New York luxury real estate developer is the closest the US has come to working class class consciousness in a century.
So how exactly does your new democratic socialistic system address that? How can you reconcile the awfulness of your American voters and your plan to hand power directly to them? You need to either come up with an excuse for why they’re not really as terrible as they very obviously are or drop the democracy part.
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[B]On February 01 2025 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
Forget the revolutionary part, you guys need to be socialists ASAP or fascism is going to keep winning while your Democrat politicians collaborate with them.
None of you libs/Dems have a real argument not to be socialists. It was so that you could beat Trump. That failed spectacularly. Nothing stopping you all from spending the next 6 months acting in good faith as socialists just to try it out. Well, nothing except your stubbornly undue hubris.
Democrats have nothing else/better for you to be doing, and I promise bickering/shitposting with oBlade about dwarfs/genitals isn't more useful than developing a socialist worldview in community with your comrades.
I asked what it means to be a non-revolutionary socialist and you ignored me. Still not sure how being a socialist effects political change. Is it just like, voting for a Sanders or a Corbyn when one comes along?
EDIT: I did not expect this to be discussed in detail over the following page :D
Although yeah, still not sure what the next step is, if not revolution, after saying "Yep, America's health care system sucks". If being a non-revolutionary socialist is just saying America's health care sucks, maybe I was one all along.
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On February 01 2025 05:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 04:43 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 04:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 02:07 Sermokala wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Its extra funny considering he doesn't follow any of his advice. If anyone is petulantly shitposting its GH. Dude offers no solutions, no open hands to convince anyone of anything. He's never tried to convince anyone of anything other than cynically trying to opine why everyone else doesn't abandon their positions and admit he was right all along. On February 01 2025 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Alternatively, we could be adults capable of participating in a democracy? I'd really like us to be that *eyes glisten dramatically with optimism* On February 01 2025 01:55 Sadist wrote:On February 01 2025 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:54 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:20 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Admittedly it's often not easy to ignore, but I can say that I carry a little bit less negative energy in myself through the day when I have the discipline to avoid pointless topics such as this one.
I've also stopped responding to certain individuals for many months (before I finally cave one time and then have to tell myself to never respond). It's funny because most posters can mostly ignore criticism/discussion from their left but we know they can't help themselves when it comes to stuff like spending pages shitposting about ATC dwarfs with oBlade. It's even worse right now since Democrats functionally have no leadership or message that Trump and his ilk are distracting the country from. So they literally end up asking for it. Ah yes, Sadist asking Oblade to defend the latest idiotic thing Trump said on teamliquid is why you're still 0 for 0 on revolutions. He should do better. Forget the revolutionary part, you guys need to be socialists ASAP or fascism is going to keep winning while your Democrat politicians collaborate with them. None of you libs/Dems have a real argument not to be socialists. It was so that you could beat Trump. That failed spectacularly. Nothing stopping you all from spending the next 6 months acting in good faith as socialists just to try it out. Well, nothing except your stubbornly undue hubris. Democrats have nothing else/better for you to be doing, and I promise bickering/shitposting with oBlade about dwarfs/genitals isn't more useful than developing a socialist worldview in community with your comrades. Can you clarify what you mean by becoming socialists? In the temporary sense and to be probably dangerously reductive, I basically mean approaching everything here with a sort of "how would a socialist I can relate to engage with this" and going from there. I mean look at this shit. He can't even answer what a socialist is without trying to put himself as the example people should be following. He doesn't understand that he lives in a democracy and that people can seriously engage with the one form of government that we have. I know communists and they're at least unafraid to tell people they don't belive in democracy and want authoritarianism. This guy is just scared to tell people how he thinks we should be doleing out power in this country. I agree with Zam on this. The question wasn't, as I understood it, "what is a socialist?" Though if Sadist or anyone else wants a hand finding a socialist they can relate to I'd be happy to assist their efforts. The US has something it calls "democracy", but there's more to democracy in any meaningful sense than ~30-70% of the country voting every couple years (if Trump/the fascists/Putin let you anymore). I'm advocating socialism. Socialism is democratic. I'm not "scared" to tell people we should live in a socialist, democratic country. It's easy to see the difference between how you describe my posts and what is actually in them for anyone reading both in good faith. To that point... I welcome anyone that wants to explore being a socialist while Democrats are busy appeasing Trump/fascists and bickering over ATC dwarfs and such, at least until it's time for them to tell you voting for evil (of the lesser kind) is your only hope (should Trump/the fascists allow it), to my Blog: Socialism Anyone?. The US has democracy. The problem with the US isn't Trump, the problem with the US is Americans. I don't think you have a plan to overcome that. Let's say that 20 years ago a democratic socialist America was the status quo. It would have been dismantled just as easily by conservative media and the breakdown of political norms. Your Americans would love Trump just as much as real Americans do. You spend so much time bashing America's choices and yet the best plan you can come up with is predicated on Americans somehow making better ones. The moment in time to go back to would be post WWII and the ~60's. One problem then as it was in 2016, 2020, and is now, are the "white moderates" that ostensibly aren't fascist Trump supporters, but effectively end up being fascist enablers to protect their personal comforts (usually in vain). I don't need everyone in the US to "make better choices", just a handful of posters here that already know they should be to relax a little bit and just try it for funsies. Worry about us doing just a little better here and now, we don't have to worry about if what we're doing is changing the world or not. Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 04:56 Sadist wrote:
My question was more along the lines of what he meant "be socialist". Join a political party? Like I dont understand what it means in practical terms. If it means look at the world through X lens I dont understand how that helps anything.
Like im looking for a tangible action on what being a socialist is and how its any different from where we are now.
Joining a socialist org is a great thing to do. I recommend the video in my blog as something relatively easily accessible starting point to those here. Zam's suggestions on forming unions, local organizing, food bank stuff, and other mutual aid efforts are also aspects of socialism. Can you truly not imagine how looking at an issue through a socialist perspective, absent the profit motive, could lead to tangibly different approaches/action we would take to address a variety of problems? For instance, how what we do about healthcare has a lot to do with whether someone believes they need to profit off your sickness or not?
I am all for socialism if it means something like our European counterparts. I tell just about everyone I know, in a non political way, that Democrat or Republican the existing healthcare system is a scam and is helping few if any of us. I advocate for medicare 4 all etc.
I didnt think thats what you meant when you said "be socialist".
I was thinking you were gonna say something more along the lines of join a group promoting a communist revolution or something. I dont think many in the US support that at all in principle.
Ive voted for Bernie in the presidential primaries. Im not really sure be socialist in all actuality is much differrent than what most of us are already doing.
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On February 01 2025 05:56 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 05:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 04:43 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 04:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 02:07 Sermokala wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Its extra funny considering he doesn't follow any of his advice. If anyone is petulantly shitposting its GH. Dude offers no solutions, no open hands to convince anyone of anything. He's never tried to convince anyone of anything other than cynically trying to opine why everyone else doesn't abandon their positions and admit he was right all along. On February 01 2025 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Alternatively, we could be adults capable of participating in a democracy? I'd really like us to be that *eyes glisten dramatically with optimism* On February 01 2025 01:55 Sadist wrote:On February 01 2025 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:54 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:[quote] It's funny because most posters can mostly ignore criticism/discussion from their left but we know they can't help themselves when it comes to stuff like spending pages shitposting about ATC dwarfs with oBlade. It's even worse right now since Democrats functionally have no leadership or message that Trump and his ilk are distracting the country from. So they literally end up asking for it. Ah yes, Sadist asking Oblade to defend the latest idiotic thing Trump said on teamliquid is why you're still 0 for 0 on revolutions. He should do better. Forget the revolutionary part, you guys need to be socialists ASAP or fascism is going to keep winning while your Democrat politicians collaborate with them. None of you libs/Dems have a real argument not to be socialists. It was so that you could beat Trump. That failed spectacularly. Nothing stopping you all from spending the next 6 months acting in good faith as socialists just to try it out. Well, nothing except your stubbornly undue hubris. Democrats have nothing else/better for you to be doing, and I promise bickering/shitposting with oBlade about dwarfs/genitals isn't more useful than developing a socialist worldview in community with your comrades. Can you clarify what you mean by becoming socialists? In the temporary sense and to be probably dangerously reductive, I basically mean approaching everything here with a sort of "how would a socialist I can relate to engage with this" and going from there. I mean look at this shit. He can't even answer what a socialist is without trying to put himself as the example people should be following. He doesn't understand that he lives in a democracy and that people can seriously engage with the one form of government that we have. I know communists and they're at least unafraid to tell people they don't belive in democracy and want authoritarianism. This guy is just scared to tell people how he thinks we should be doleing out power in this country. I agree with Zam on this. The question wasn't, as I understood it, "what is a socialist?" Though if Sadist or anyone else wants a hand finding a socialist they can relate to I'd be happy to assist their efforts. The US has something it calls "democracy", but there's more to democracy in any meaningful sense than ~30-70% of the country voting every couple years (if Trump/the fascists/Putin let you anymore). I'm advocating socialism. Socialism is democratic. I'm not "scared" to tell people we should live in a socialist, democratic country. It's easy to see the difference between how you describe my posts and what is actually in them for anyone reading both in good faith. To that point... I welcome anyone that wants to explore being a socialist while Democrats are busy appeasing Trump/fascists and bickering over ATC dwarfs and such, at least until it's time for them to tell you voting for evil (of the lesser kind) is your only hope (should Trump/the fascists allow it), to my Blog: Socialism Anyone?. The US has democracy. The problem with the US isn't Trump, the problem with the US is Americans. I don't think you have a plan to overcome that. Let's say that 20 years ago a democratic socialist America was the status quo. It would have been dismantled just as easily by conservative media and the breakdown of political norms. Your Americans would love Trump just as much as real Americans do. You spend so much time bashing America's choices and yet the best plan you can come up with is predicated on Americans somehow making better ones. The moment in time to go back to would be post WWII and the ~60's. One problem then as it was in 2016, 2020, and is now, are the "white moderates" that ostensibly aren't fascist Trump supporters, but effectively end up being fascist enablers to protect their personal comforts (usually in vain). I don't need everyone in the US to "make better choices", just a handful of posters here that already know they should be to relax a little bit and just try it for funsies. Worry about us doing just a little better here and now, we don't have to worry about if what we're doing is changing the world or not. On February 01 2025 04:56 Sadist wrote:
My question was more along the lines of what he meant "be socialist". Join a political party? Like I dont understand what it means in practical terms. If it means look at the world through X lens I dont understand how that helps anything.
Like im looking for a tangible action on what being a socialist is and how its any different from where we are now.
Joining a socialist org is a great thing to do. I recommend the video in my blog as something relatively easily accessible starting point to those here. Zam's suggestions on forming unions, local organizing, food bank stuff, and other mutual aid efforts are also aspects of socialism. Can you truly not imagine how looking at an issue through a socialist perspective, absent the profit motive, could lead to tangibly different approaches/action we would take to address a variety of problems? For instance, how what we do about healthcare has a lot to do with whether someone believes they need to profit off your sickness or not? I am all for socialism if it means something like our European counterparts. I tell just about everyone I know, in a non political way, that Democrat or Republican the existing healthcare system is a scam and is helping few if any of us. I advocate for medicare 4 all etc. I didnt think thats what you meant when you said "be socialist". I was thinking you were gonna say something more along the lines of join a group promoting a communist revolution or something. I dont think many in the US support that at all in principle. Ive voted for Bernie in the presidential primaries. Im not really sure be socialist in all actuality is much differrent than what most of us are already doing.
As a canuck, your system down there looks insane to me.
Medicare costs a lot, yea. But about 95% of the money put into the program actually gets used on something that directly benefits the recipients.
Insurance sounds great in theory. The idea that they can put pressure on the service providers to cut costs, and act as a check to ensure that only medically necessary treatments happen and doctors don't over-do any treatments sounds great in theory. Except in reality only about 80% of the money put into these insurance companies actually gets used on something that directly benefits the recipients, and costs are still absurdly high from service providers (likely partially necessary to recoup costs on treatments that the insurance companies refuse to cover and patients can't afford, causing these costs to get written off). Additionally, these insurance companies still can't cover everything, and government funding is still added to pick up the slack. Overall the system doesn't do anything but suck ~15% of the money out of the overall system above and beyond what medicare for all would cost, without providing an overall proven benefit to justify this cost.
Don't get me wrong, our system up here has flaws. But I'd take it over that mess. Your country has more than enough wealth and prosperity to ensure that people are at least taken care of to a much better basic level than they currently have available to them without the debilitating costs and debt that come with it. You can do better. You should be doing better.
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On February 01 2025 05:44 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 05:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 04:43 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 04:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 02:07 Sermokala wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Its extra funny considering he doesn't follow any of his advice. If anyone is petulantly shitposting its GH. Dude offers no solutions, no open hands to convince anyone of anything. He's never tried to convince anyone of anything other than cynically trying to opine why everyone else doesn't abandon their positions and admit he was right all along. On February 01 2025 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Alternatively, we could be adults capable of participating in a democracy? I'd really like us to be that *eyes glisten dramatically with optimism* On February 01 2025 01:55 Sadist wrote:On February 01 2025 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:54 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:[quote] It's funny because most posters can mostly ignore criticism/discussion from their left but we know they can't help themselves when it comes to stuff like spending pages shitposting about ATC dwarfs with oBlade. It's even worse right now since Democrats functionally have no leadership or message that Trump and his ilk are distracting the country from. So they literally end up asking for it. Ah yes, Sadist asking Oblade to defend the latest idiotic thing Trump said on teamliquid is why you're still 0 for 0 on revolutions. He should do better. Forget the revolutionary part, you guys need to be socialists ASAP or fascism is going to keep winning while your Democrat politicians collaborate with them. None of you libs/Dems have a real argument not to be socialists. It was so that you could beat Trump. That failed spectacularly. Nothing stopping you all from spending the next 6 months acting in good faith as socialists just to try it out. Well, nothing except your stubbornly undue hubris. Democrats have nothing else/better for you to be doing, and I promise bickering/shitposting with oBlade about dwarfs/genitals isn't more useful than developing a socialist worldview in community with your comrades. Can you clarify what you mean by becoming socialists? In the temporary sense and to be probably dangerously reductive, I basically mean approaching everything here with a sort of "how would a socialist I can relate to engage with this" and going from there. I mean look at this shit. He can't even answer what a socialist is without trying to put himself as the example people should be following. He doesn't understand that he lives in a democracy and that people can seriously engage with the one form of government that we have. I know communists and they're at least unafraid to tell people they don't belive in democracy and want authoritarianism. This guy is just scared to tell people how he thinks we should be doleing out power in this country. I agree with Zam on this. The question wasn't, as I understood it, "what is a socialist?" Though if Sadist or anyone else wants a hand finding a socialist they can relate to I'd be happy to assist their efforts. The US has something it calls "democracy", but there's more to democracy in any meaningful sense than ~30-70% of the country voting every couple years (if Trump/the fascists/Putin let you anymore). I'm advocating socialism. Socialism is democratic. I'm not "scared" to tell people we should live in a socialist, democratic country. It's easy to see the difference between how you describe my posts and what is actually in them for anyone reading both in good faith. To that point... I welcome anyone that wants to explore being a socialist while Democrats are busy appeasing Trump/fascists and bickering over ATC dwarfs and such, at least until it's time for them to tell you voting for evil (of the lesser kind) is your only hope (should Trump/the fascists allow it), to my Blog: Socialism Anyone?. The US has democracy. The problem with the US isn't Trump, the problem with the US is Americans. I don't think you have a plan to overcome that. Let's say that 20 years ago a democratic socialist America was the status quo. It would have been dismantled just as easily by conservative media and the breakdown of political norms. Your Americans would love Trump just as much as real Americans do. You spend so much time bashing America's choices and yet the best plan you can come up with is predicated on Americans somehow making better ones. The moment in time to go back to would be post WWII and the ~60's. One problem then as it was in 2016, 2020, and is now, are the "white moderates" that ostensibly aren't fascist Trump supporters, but effectively end up being fascist enablers to protect their personal comforts (usually in vain). I don't need everyone in the US to "make better choices", just a handful of posters here that already know they should be to relax a little bit and just try it for funsies. Worry about us doing just a little better here and now, we don't have to worry about if what we're doing is changing the world or not. On February 01 2025 04:56 Sadist wrote:
My question was more along the lines of what he meant "be socialist". Join a political party? Like I dont understand what it means in practical terms. If it means look at the world through X lens I dont understand how that helps anything.
Like im looking for a tangible action on what being a socialist is and how its any different from where we are now.
Joining a socialist org is a great thing to do. I recommend the video in my blog as something relatively easily accessible starting point to those here. Zam's suggestions on forming unions, local organizing, food bank stuff, and other mutual aid efforts are also aspects of socialism. Can you truly not imagine how looking at an issue through a socialist perspective, absent the profit motive, could lead to tangibly different approaches/action we would take to address a variety of problems? For instance, how what we do about healthcare has a lot to do with whether someone believes they need to profit off your sickness or not? + Show Spoiler +This doesn’t address my point. Agreeing with me about the trashness of the American voter and saying it’s been unfixable for even longer than I said doesn’t answer the question. My point was that your democratic socialist vision is still made up of these same shitty Americans that vote today. You can have a federation of allied trade unions that elect their own leadership directly on the factory floor. Nothing will change. They’re still going to vote to expel all immigrants from the union on day 1, require all workers have union membership on day 2, and require the deportation of “scabs”, by which they’ll mean non union workers illegally working, on day 3. Trump does very well with the poorly educated working class. They love his shit. Worshiping a billionaire New York luxury real estate developer is the closest the US has come to working class class consciousness in a century. So how exactly does your new democratic socialistic system address that? How can you reconcile the awfulness of your American voters and your plan to hand power directly to them? You need to either come up with an excuse for why they’re not really as terrible as they very obviously are or drop the democracy part. The simple answer is basically the same way the US system is supposed to (as it is with most systems). Use an imperfect framework to build upon itself toward "a more perfect union" of sorts. Socialism is a noticeably better framework, still gotta do the grueling work of engaging people to collaboratively alleviate our suffering while finding joy and fulfillment though.
Turns out having a democracy and preventing fascism through socialism is hard work and we're either going to do that hard work or fall into fascism. I'd much rather do the hard work, as frustrating and unrewarding as it may be/feel sometimes.
I'd like to think I'd still be here saying all this if I was an affluent white cis man in a blue state (generically speaking). I know being higher up on the list of the targets of fascism than a centrist lib in a blue state certainly makes it feel more pressing for me though.
If/when the kind of people that constituted the majority of Democrats that didn't want Biden to run before the primary even started commit toward socialism, we'll be running circles around any far right-wing opposition.
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There's a widespread myth (even among some workers) that anything that's "free" for the working class is ripe for exploitation and they become lazy and turn into leeches. This is ultra-capitalist think tank propaganda. In reality free healthcare, unions and various "government handouts" as they like to call it would free workers from exploitation and they'd become happier, healthier and wealthier. The tragic, unacceptable downside is that the ultra-wealthy would be forced to own one or two yachts less. That is an absolute nightmare.
Well, in reality most people are in favor of such ideas, which is precisely why the propagandists distract them with immigration and crime and so forth prior to every election. The superwealthy are putting people under a spell. I don't know many among them who aren't so nefarious. Bill Gates perhaps? There aren't many "good" superwealthy, nor decent ones I'd say.
I used to be very pro-capitalism when I was younger. Yay capitalism, it only fails because we're not capitalism-ing enough. Shoot for the stars and you can have everything you want.
The problem is that this wasn't true for regular workers. Capitalism was never the reason why the working class once flourished. It was in fact the "free handouts" that did it.
Regarding GH's revolutionary socialism, I don't really care whether he has or doesn't have a plan forward. I have no plan either. No one else here does either from what I can tell. I prefer not to be the pot calling the kettle black.
And I think when GH returns the favor and becomes accusatory, that's more like a reflection of how awful some people here generally are towards him. If I were him I'd also start pointing fingers back at the people who themselves have absolutely no solution, but are demanding one from me.
GH is fundamentally right. The precise way forward may be uncertain but we can all agree that things are bad and just keeping the economic system the way it is can't be part of the solution.
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On February 01 2025 04:28 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 02:07 Sermokala wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Its extra funny considering he doesn't follow any of his advice. If anyone is petulantly shitposting its GH. Dude offers no solutions, no open hands to convince anyone of anything. He's never tried to convince anyone of anything other than cynically trying to opine why everyone else doesn't abandon their positions and admit he was right all along. On February 01 2025 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Alternatively, we could be adults capable of participating in a democracy? I'd really like us to be that *eyes glisten dramatically with optimism* On February 01 2025 01:55 Sadist wrote:On February 01 2025 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:54 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:20 Magic Powers wrote:On February 01 2025 00:00 Gorsameth wrote:On January 31 2025 23:47 WombaT wrote:
It’s the usual disingenuous bullshit that isn’t really worth entertaining, one will be subjected to (hopefully) ineffective gaslighting and an almost 0% chance of shifting opinions.
We’ve been headbutting that wall since 2016 to little real effect.
Whether it takes the form of ‘revolutionary socialism’ or not, GH is 100% correct that winning internet arguments with Fascist-enablers does shit all, and building up robust community efforts is the way to go.
So we just have to ban Blackjack and oBlade. Because that's the only way your going to stop this from not happening constantly for the next 4 years. Admittedly it's often not easy to ignore, but I can say that I carry a little bit less negative energy in myself through the day when I have the discipline to avoid pointless topics such as this one. I've also stopped responding to certain individuals for many months (before I finally cave one time and then have to tell myself to never respond). It's funny because most posters can mostly ignore criticism/discussion from their left but we know they can't help themselves when it comes to stuff like spending pages shitposting about ATC dwarfs with oBlade. It's even worse right now since Democrats functionally have no leadership or message that Trump and his ilk are distracting the country from. So they literally end up asking for it. Ah yes, Sadist asking Oblade to defend the latest idiotic thing Trump said on teamliquid is why you're still 0 for 0 on revolutions. He should do better. Forget the revolutionary part, you guys need to be socialists ASAP or fascism is going to keep winning while your Democrat politicians collaborate with them. None of you libs/Dems have a real argument not to be socialists. It was so that you could beat Trump. That failed spectacularly. Nothing stopping you all from spending the next 6 months acting in good faith as socialists just to try it out. Well, nothing except your stubbornly undue hubris. Democrats have nothing else/better for you to be doing, and I promise bickering/shitposting with oBlade about dwarfs/genitals isn't more useful than developing a socialist worldview in community with your comrades. Can you clarify what you mean by becoming socialists? In the temporary sense and to be probably dangerously reductive, I basically mean approaching everything here with a sort of "how would a socialist I can relate to engage with this" and going from there. I mean look at this shit. He can't even answer what a socialist is without trying to put himself as the example people should be following. He doesn't understand that he lives in a democracy and that people can seriously engage with the one form of government that we have. I know communists and they're at least unafraid to tell people they don't belive in democracy and want authoritarianism. This guy is just scared to tell people how he thinks we should be doleing out power in this country. I agree with Zam on this. The question wasn't, as I understood it, "what is a socialist?" Though if Sadist or anyone else wants a hand finding a socialist they can relate to I'd be happy to assist their efforts. The US has something it calls "democracy", but there's more to democracy in any meaningful sense than ~30-70% of the country voting every couple years (if Trump/the fascists/Putin let you anymore). I'm advocating socialism. Socialism is democratic. I'm not "scared" to tell people we should live in a socialist, democratic country. It's easy to see the difference between how you describe my posts and what is actually in them for anyone reading both in good faith. To that point... I welcome anyone that wants to explore being a socialist while Democrats are busy appeasing Trump/fascists and bickering over ATC dwarfs and such, at least until it's time for them to tell you voting for evil (of the lesser kind) is your only hope (should Trump/the fascists allow it), to my Blog: Socialism Anyone?.
When you are talking about democratic socialist countries are you speaking about Denmark or Venezuela? Maybe both or neither? What country that currently exists (or has in the last 100 years) are you suggesting the US attempt to model itself after?
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On February 01 2025 06:49 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 05:44 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 05:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 04:43 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 04:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 02:07 Sermokala wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Its extra funny considering he doesn't follow any of his advice. If anyone is petulantly shitposting its GH. Dude offers no solutions, no open hands to convince anyone of anything. He's never tried to convince anyone of anything other than cynically trying to opine why everyone else doesn't abandon their positions and admit he was right all along. On February 01 2025 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Alternatively, we could be adults capable of participating in a democracy? I'd really like us to be that *eyes glisten dramatically with optimism* On February 01 2025 01:55 Sadist wrote:On February 01 2025 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 00:54 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Ah yes, Sadist asking Oblade to defend the latest idiotic thing Trump said on teamliquid is why you're still 0 for 0 on revolutions. He should do better. Forget the revolutionary part, you guys need to be socialists ASAP or fascism is going to keep winning while your Democrat politicians collaborate with them. None of you libs/Dems have a real argument not to be socialists. It was so that you could beat Trump. That failed spectacularly. Nothing stopping you all from spending the next 6 months acting in good faith as socialists just to try it out. Well, nothing except your stubbornly undue hubris. Democrats have nothing else/better for you to be doing, and I promise bickering/shitposting with oBlade about dwarfs/genitals isn't more useful than developing a socialist worldview in community with your comrades. Can you clarify what you mean by becoming socialists? In the temporary sense and to be probably dangerously reductive, I basically mean approaching everything here with a sort of "how would a socialist I can relate to engage with this" and going from there. I mean look at this shit. He can't even answer what a socialist is without trying to put himself as the example people should be following. He doesn't understand that he lives in a democracy and that people can seriously engage with the one form of government that we have. I know communists and they're at least unafraid to tell people they don't belive in democracy and want authoritarianism. This guy is just scared to tell people how he thinks we should be doleing out power in this country. I agree with Zam on this. The question wasn't, as I understood it, "what is a socialist?" Though if Sadist or anyone else wants a hand finding a socialist they can relate to I'd be happy to assist their efforts. The US has something it calls "democracy", but there's more to democracy in any meaningful sense than ~30-70% of the country voting every couple years (if Trump/the fascists/Putin let you anymore). I'm advocating socialism. Socialism is democratic. I'm not "scared" to tell people we should live in a socialist, democratic country. It's easy to see the difference between how you describe my posts and what is actually in them for anyone reading both in good faith. To that point... I welcome anyone that wants to explore being a socialist while Democrats are busy appeasing Trump/fascists and bickering over ATC dwarfs and such, at least until it's time for them to tell you voting for evil (of the lesser kind) is your only hope (should Trump/the fascists allow it), to my Blog: Socialism Anyone?. The US has democracy. The problem with the US isn't Trump, the problem with the US is Americans. I don't think you have a plan to overcome that. Let's say that 20 years ago a democratic socialist America was the status quo. It would have been dismantled just as easily by conservative media and the breakdown of political norms. Your Americans would love Trump just as much as real Americans do. You spend so much time bashing America's choices and yet the best plan you can come up with is predicated on Americans somehow making better ones. The moment in time to go back to would be post WWII and the ~60's. One problem then as it was in 2016, 2020, and is now, are the "white moderates" that ostensibly aren't fascist Trump supporters, but effectively end up being fascist enablers to protect their personal comforts (usually in vain). I don't need everyone in the US to "make better choices", just a handful of posters here that already know they should be to relax a little bit and just try it for funsies. Worry about us doing just a little better here and now, we don't have to worry about if what we're doing is changing the world or not. On February 01 2025 04:56 Sadist wrote:
My question was more along the lines of what he meant "be socialist". Join a political party? Like I dont understand what it means in practical terms. If it means look at the world through X lens I dont understand how that helps anything.
Like im looking for a tangible action on what being a socialist is and how its any different from where we are now.
Joining a socialist org is a great thing to do. I recommend the video in my blog as something relatively easily accessible starting point to those here. Zam's suggestions on forming unions, local organizing, food bank stuff, and other mutual aid efforts are also aspects of socialism. Can you truly not imagine how looking at an issue through a socialist perspective, absent the profit motive, could lead to tangibly different approaches/action we would take to address a variety of problems? For instance, how what we do about healthcare has a lot to do with whether someone believes they need to profit off your sickness or not? + Show Spoiler +This doesn’t address my point. Agreeing with me about the trashness of the American voter and saying it’s been unfixable for even longer than I said doesn’t answer the question. My point was that your democratic socialist vision is still made up of these same shitty Americans that vote today. You can have a federation of allied trade unions that elect their own leadership directly on the factory floor. Nothing will change. They’re still going to vote to expel all immigrants from the union on day 1, require all workers have union membership on day 2, and require the deportation of “scabs”, by which they’ll mean non union workers illegally working, on day 3. Trump does very well with the poorly educated working class. They love his shit. Worshiping a billionaire New York luxury real estate developer is the closest the US has come to working class class consciousness in a century. So how exactly does your new democratic socialistic system address that? How can you reconcile the awfulness of your American voters and your plan to hand power directly to them? You need to either come up with an excuse for why they’re not really as terrible as they very obviously are or drop the democracy part. The simple answer is basically the same way the US system is supposed to (as it is with most systems). Use an imperfect framework to build upon itself toward "a more perfect union" of sorts. Socialism is a noticeably better framework, still gotta do the grueling work of engaging people to collaboratively alleviate our suffering while finding joy and fulfillment though. Turns out having a democracy and preventing fascism through socialism is hard work and we're either going to do that hard work or fall into fascism. I'd much rather do the hard work, as frustrating and unrewarding as it may be/feel sometimes. I'd like to think I'd still be here saying all this if I was an affluent white cis man in a blue state (generically speaking). I know being higher up on the list of the targets of fascism than a centrist lib in a blue state certainly makes it feel more pressing for me though. If/when the kind of people that constituted the majority of Democrats that didn't want Biden to run before the primary even started commit toward socialism, we'll be running circles around any far right-wing opposition.
You still haven't shown how it's better. You've just stated it a bunch of times.
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On February 01 2025 07:14 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 06:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 05:44 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 05:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 04:43 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 04:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 02:07 Sermokala wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Its extra funny considering he doesn't follow any of his advice. If anyone is petulantly shitposting its GH. Dude offers no solutions, no open hands to convince anyone of anything. He's never tried to convince anyone of anything other than cynically trying to opine why everyone else doesn't abandon their positions and admit he was right all along. On February 01 2025 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Alternatively, we could be adults capable of participating in a democracy? I'd really like us to be that *eyes glisten dramatically with optimism* On February 01 2025 01:55 Sadist wrote:On February 01 2025 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Forget the revolutionary part, you guys need to be socialists ASAP or fascism is going to keep winning while your Democrat politicians collaborate with them.
None of you libs/Dems have a real argument not to be socialists. It was so that you could beat Trump. That failed spectacularly. Nothing stopping you all from spending the next 6 months acting in good faith as socialists just to try it out. Well, nothing except your stubbornly undue hubris.
Democrats have nothing else/better for you to be doing, and I promise bickering/shitposting with oBlade about dwarfs/genitals isn't more useful than developing a socialist worldview in community with your comrades. Can you clarify what you mean by becoming socialists? In the temporary sense and to be probably dangerously reductive, I basically mean approaching everything here with a sort of "how would a socialist I can relate to engage with this" and going from there. I mean look at this shit. He can't even answer what a socialist is without trying to put himself as the example people should be following. He doesn't understand that he lives in a democracy and that people can seriously engage with the one form of government that we have. I know communists and they're at least unafraid to tell people they don't belive in democracy and want authoritarianism. This guy is just scared to tell people how he thinks we should be doleing out power in this country. I agree with Zam on this. The question wasn't, as I understood it, "what is a socialist?" Though if Sadist or anyone else wants a hand finding a socialist they can relate to I'd be happy to assist their efforts. The US has something it calls "democracy", but there's more to democracy in any meaningful sense than ~30-70% of the country voting every couple years (if Trump/the fascists/Putin let you anymore). I'm advocating socialism. Socialism is democratic. I'm not "scared" to tell people we should live in a socialist, democratic country. It's easy to see the difference between how you describe my posts and what is actually in them for anyone reading both in good faith. To that point... I welcome anyone that wants to explore being a socialist while Democrats are busy appeasing Trump/fascists and bickering over ATC dwarfs and such, at least until it's time for them to tell you voting for evil (of the lesser kind) is your only hope (should Trump/the fascists allow it), to my Blog: Socialism Anyone?. The US has democracy. The problem with the US isn't Trump, the problem with the US is Americans. I don't think you have a plan to overcome that. Let's say that 20 years ago a democratic socialist America was the status quo. It would have been dismantled just as easily by conservative media and the breakdown of political norms. Your Americans would love Trump just as much as real Americans do. You spend so much time bashing America's choices and yet the best plan you can come up with is predicated on Americans somehow making better ones. The moment in time to go back to would be post WWII and the ~60's. One problem then as it was in 2016, 2020, and is now, are the "white moderates" that ostensibly aren't fascist Trump supporters, but effectively end up being fascist enablers to protect their personal comforts (usually in vain). I don't need everyone in the US to "make better choices", just a handful of posters here that already know they should be to relax a little bit and just try it for funsies. Worry about us doing just a little better here and now, we don't have to worry about if what we're doing is changing the world or not. On February 01 2025 04:56 Sadist wrote:
My question was more along the lines of what he meant "be socialist". Join a political party? Like I dont understand what it means in practical terms. If it means look at the world through X lens I dont understand how that helps anything.
Like im looking for a tangible action on what being a socialist is and how its any different from where we are now.
Joining a socialist org is a great thing to do. I recommend the video in my blog as something relatively easily accessible starting point to those here. Zam's suggestions on forming unions, local organizing, food bank stuff, and other mutual aid efforts are also aspects of socialism. Can you truly not imagine how looking at an issue through a socialist perspective, absent the profit motive, could lead to tangibly different approaches/action we would take to address a variety of problems? For instance, how what we do about healthcare has a lot to do with whether someone believes they need to profit off your sickness or not? + Show Spoiler +This doesn’t address my point. Agreeing with me about the trashness of the American voter and saying it’s been unfixable for even longer than I said doesn’t answer the question. My point was that your democratic socialist vision is still made up of these same shitty Americans that vote today. You can have a federation of allied trade unions that elect their own leadership directly on the factory floor. Nothing will change. They’re still going to vote to expel all immigrants from the union on day 1, require all workers have union membership on day 2, and require the deportation of “scabs”, by which they’ll mean non union workers illegally working, on day 3. Trump does very well with the poorly educated working class. They love his shit. Worshiping a billionaire New York luxury real estate developer is the closest the US has come to working class class consciousness in a century. So how exactly does your new democratic socialistic system address that? How can you reconcile the awfulness of your American voters and your plan to hand power directly to them? You need to either come up with an excuse for why they’re not really as terrible as they very obviously are or drop the democracy part. The simple answer is basically the same way the US system is supposed to (as it is with most systems). Use an imperfect framework to build upon itself toward "a more perfect union" of sorts. Socialism is a noticeably better framework, still gotta do the grueling work of engaging people to collaboratively alleviate our suffering while finding joy and fulfillment though. Turns out having a democracy and preventing fascism through socialism is hard work and we're either going to do that hard work or fall into fascism. I'd much rather do the hard work, as frustrating and unrewarding as it may be/feel sometimes. I'd like to think I'd still be here saying all this if I was an affluent white cis man in a blue state (generically speaking). I know being higher up on the list of the targets of fascism than a centrist lib in a blue state certainly makes it feel more pressing for me though. If/when the kind of people that constituted the majority of Democrats that didn't want Biden to run before the primary even started commit toward socialism, we'll be running circles around any far right-wing opposition. You still haven't shown how it's better. You've just stated it a bunch of times.
I'm not really appealing to the people that reject socialism as preferable to capitalism (not even sure who among 'the left' here would do this), I'm more talking to the people that would prefer socialism but find implementing it impractical for one reason or another (which is effectively everyone on 'the left' here).
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I still don't really understand how recognising that capitalism is flawed and applying this worldview to see for example that healthcare sucks and CEOs are over-valued, or even joining an organisation with a bunch of people with a like-minded view on fiscal policy, helps me when the fascists come.
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On February 01 2025 07:21 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 07:14 maybenexttime wrote:On February 01 2025 06:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 05:44 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 05:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 04:43 KwarK wrote:On February 01 2025 04:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 02:07 Sermokala wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Its extra funny considering he doesn't follow any of his advice. If anyone is petulantly shitposting its GH. Dude offers no solutions, no open hands to convince anyone of anything. He's never tried to convince anyone of anything other than cynically trying to opine why everyone else doesn't abandon their positions and admit he was right all along. On February 01 2025 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2025 01:52 Zambrah wrote:
My dude, everyone here has a long history with each other, theres no way you're gonna get any progress with your ideals around here in any super meaningful way, I've shifted more towards your viewpoints over the years as it seems like all of the electoral types here have as much of a plan as they accuse you of not having for dealing with basic shit like political corruption and all of the absurd issues we've had in this country for years.
Petulant, cynical back and forthing is all we have here, that and posting the news, usually cynically. Alternatively, we could be adults capable of participating in a democracy? I'd really like us to be that *eyes glisten dramatically with optimism* On February 01 2025 01:55 Sadist wrote:
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Can you clarify what you mean by becoming socialists? In the temporary sense and to be probably dangerously reductive, I basically mean approaching everything here with a sort of "how would a socialist I can relate to engage with this" and going from there. I mean look at this shit. He can't even answer what a socialist is without trying to put himself as the example people should be following. He doesn't understand that he lives in a democracy and that people can seriously engage with the one form of government that we have. I know communists and they're at least unafraid to tell people they don't belive in democracy and want authoritarianism. This guy is just scared to tell people how he thinks we should be doleing out power in this country. I agree with Zam on this. The question wasn't, as I understood it, "what is a socialist?" Though if Sadist or anyone else wants a hand finding a socialist they can relate to I'd be happy to assist their efforts. The US has something it calls "democracy", but there's more to democracy in any meaningful sense than ~30-70% of the country voting every couple years (if Trump/the fascists/Putin let you anymore). I'm advocating socialism. Socialism is democratic. I'm not "scared" to tell people we should live in a socialist, democratic country. It's easy to see the difference between how you describe my posts and what is actually in them for anyone reading both in good faith. To that point... I welcome anyone that wants to explore being a socialist while Democrats are busy appeasing Trump/fascists and bickering over ATC dwarfs and such, at least until it's time for them to tell you voting for evil (of the lesser kind) is your only hope (should Trump/the fascists allow it), to my Blog: Socialism Anyone?. The US has democracy. The problem with the US isn't Trump, the problem with the US is Americans. I don't think you have a plan to overcome that. Let's say that 20 years ago a democratic socialist America was the status quo. It would have been dismantled just as easily by conservative media and the breakdown of political norms. Your Americans would love Trump just as much as real Americans do. You spend so much time bashing America's choices and yet the best plan you can come up with is predicated on Americans somehow making better ones. The moment in time to go back to would be post WWII and the ~60's. One problem then as it was in 2016, 2020, and is now, are the "white moderates" that ostensibly aren't fascist Trump supporters, but effectively end up being fascist enablers to protect their personal comforts (usually in vain). I don't need everyone in the US to "make better choices", just a handful of posters here that already know they should be to relax a little bit and just try it for funsies. Worry about us doing just a little better here and now, we don't have to worry about if what we're doing is changing the world or not. On February 01 2025 04:56 Sadist wrote:
My question was more along the lines of what he meant "be socialist". Join a political party? Like I dont understand what it means in practical terms. If it means look at the world through X lens I dont understand how that helps anything.
Like im looking for a tangible action on what being a socialist is and how its any different from where we are now.
Joining a socialist org is a great thing to do. I recommend the video in my blog as something relatively easily accessible starting point to those here. Zam's suggestions on forming unions, local organizing, food bank stuff, and other mutual aid efforts are also aspects of socialism. Can you truly not imagine how looking at an issue through a socialist perspective, absent the profit motive, could lead to tangibly different approaches/action we would take to address a variety of problems? For instance, how what we do about healthcare has a lot to do with whether someone believes they need to profit off your sickness or not? + Show Spoiler +This doesn’t address my point. Agreeing with me about the trashness of the American voter and saying it’s been unfixable for even longer than I said doesn’t answer the question. My point was that your democratic socialist vision is still made up of these same shitty Americans that vote today. You can have a federation of allied trade unions that elect their own leadership directly on the factory floor. Nothing will change. They’re still going to vote to expel all immigrants from the union on day 1, require all workers have union membership on day 2, and require the deportation of “scabs”, by which they’ll mean non union workers illegally working, on day 3. Trump does very well with the poorly educated working class. They love his shit. Worshiping a billionaire New York luxury real estate developer is the closest the US has come to working class class consciousness in a century. So how exactly does your new democratic socialistic system address that? How can you reconcile the awfulness of your American voters and your plan to hand power directly to them? You need to either come up with an excuse for why they’re not really as terrible as they very obviously are or drop the democracy part. The simple answer is basically the same way the US system is supposed to (as it is with most systems). Use an imperfect framework to build upon itself toward "a more perfect union" of sorts. Socialism is a noticeably better framework, still gotta do the grueling work of engaging people to collaboratively alleviate our suffering while finding joy and fulfillment though. Turns out having a democracy and preventing fascism through socialism is hard work and we're either going to do that hard work or fall into fascism. I'd much rather do the hard work, as frustrating and unrewarding as it may be/feel sometimes. I'd like to think I'd still be here saying all this if I was an affluent white cis man in a blue state (generically speaking). I know being higher up on the list of the targets of fascism than a centrist lib in a blue state certainly makes it feel more pressing for me though. If/when the kind of people that constituted the majority of Democrats that didn't want Biden to run before the primary even started commit toward socialism, we'll be running circles around any far right-wing opposition. You still haven't shown how it's better. You've just stated it a bunch of times. I'm not really appealing to the people that reject socialism as preferable to capitalism (not even sure who among 'the left' here would do this), I'm more talking to the people that would prefer socialism but find implementing it impractical for one reason or another (which is effectively everyone on 'the left' here). The single biggest impracticality to implementing socialism in the US is the American people.
They don't want it and repeatedly vote not to have it.
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