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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On July 11 2023 08:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 07:52 BlackJack wrote:On July 11 2023 07:30 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 07:03 BlackJack wrote:On July 11 2023 05:22 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 04:37 BlackJack wrote:On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate? 8 year old? It says grade 8 which would be 13 year olds. Seems a little late in the game to be using the “they are just a child playing pretend” argument. At some point you should be able to handle being told you’re not actually a cat without the adults jumping in to shelter you by telling your peers they need to go to another school. I used to believe I have magic powers (hence my name). I stopped believing in magic roughly when I turned 20 or so. I don't think a 13 y/o girl believing she's a cat is of harm to anyone. I'm more worried about others harming her, as evidenced by the fact that she cried because she got ridiculed. So you think we should reinforce people's delusions so as to not upset them? Do you think you're setting someone up to succeed in adulthood if you're coddling them so severely that you to pretend they are a cat so as to not upset them? Again this is a 13 year old, not a toddler. I think the idea that you're doing less harm here is extremely short-sighted. Taking a page out of your sarcasm playbook, yes we should pretend that Peter Pan is real and women get pregnant from a kiss. I don't know what you want me to say. Kids don't need the truth forcefed to them. They'll figure things out for themselves eventually. Many adults are immature in countless ways and yet somehow the world hasn't fallen apart. I don't think it matters if some people think they're bunnies that poop rainbows. I really don't. There are many adults who think ghosts are real. What tragic event is going to happen because of their belief? Oh no, people believe in ghosts. And in horoscopes. And in a great skydaddy. And in the afterlife. Big deal. That's not what causes them to succeed or fail at leading good lives. Terrible food in grocery stores, that's a much more likely culprit behind the failure of a society's individuals. Starvation due to destroyed crops caused by global warming. That's the dangerous stuff. What matters is that kids have a good shot at living a good life and that they have the rights they deserve. We should treat them well and with kindness, and not force every single one of our views into their heads. Sometimes it doesn't matter if we're right or wrong. Sometimes what matters is kindness and nothing else. That's part of being an adult - learning to set priorities in life. Lets maybe not blow the fantasies of little kids completely out of proportion. Yes adolescents eventually figure it out for themselves because the vast majority of humans will reorient the adolescents to reality, even if it may make them cry. If the vast majority of humans actually placated the delusions of people pretending to be cats or bunnies that poop rainbows we might have a different outcome. I'd say we don't try that weird social experiment just out of the hopes that nobody will ever have to cry again. Also nobody is saying to go around telling 5 year olds that Santa isn't real. Again, we are talking about a 13 year old. This is considered an early adult in many cultures, for example the age at which a Jew would be bar/bat mitzvah'd. Infantilizing teenagers by thinking they are too fragile to be told their fantasies aren't real is just weird at best and harmful at worst. I'm hoping to get your take on something, because I feel like this fringe case isn't nearly as important as more popular fantasies that permeate our culture. If I remember correctly, you're an atheist like me. Do you think there might be some parallels between delusions of being a different species and delusions of religion? And which do you think is a bigger deal in society? Because I would hope that, as you put it, "the vast majority of humans will reorient the adolescents to reality, even if it may make them cry", yet a major counterexample of that is how we permit people to practice beliefs related to all sorts of imaginary and supernatural nonsense under the first amendment's freedom of religion. We rarely even correct it with formal education or casual conversation (as long as it doesn't directly hurt anyone else, supposedly). We just shrug and look the other way. In fact, rather than parents reorienting their kids, the parents are the ones pushing the fantasies in the first place! People believe in gods and souls and heavens and hells and all sorts of fantasies that help them sleep at night and give their lives meaning and purpose. While I think the one-in-a-million kid who might suppress the fact that they're a human is a kid who needs help, I think there are way bigger fish to fry if we're talking about pushing back on believing bullshit.
By expanding this discussion to now include religious beliefs, there are no signs of the original topic anymore.
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On July 11 2023 08:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 07:52 BlackJack wrote:On July 11 2023 07:30 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 07:03 BlackJack wrote:On July 11 2023 05:22 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 04:37 BlackJack wrote:On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate? 8 year old? It says grade 8 which would be 13 year olds. Seems a little late in the game to be using the “they are just a child playing pretend” argument. At some point you should be able to handle being told you’re not actually a cat without the adults jumping in to shelter you by telling your peers they need to go to another school. I used to believe I have magic powers (hence my name). I stopped believing in magic roughly when I turned 20 or so. I don't think a 13 y/o girl believing she's a cat is of harm to anyone. I'm more worried about others harming her, as evidenced by the fact that she cried because she got ridiculed. So you think we should reinforce people's delusions so as to not upset them? Do you think you're setting someone up to succeed in adulthood if you're coddling them so severely that you to pretend they are a cat so as to not upset them? Again this is a 13 year old, not a toddler. I think the idea that you're doing less harm here is extremely short-sighted. Taking a page out of your sarcasm playbook, yes we should pretend that Peter Pan is real and women get pregnant from a kiss. I don't know what you want me to say. Kids don't need the truth forcefed to them. They'll figure things out for themselves eventually. Many adults are immature in countless ways and yet somehow the world hasn't fallen apart. I don't think it matters if some people think they're bunnies that poop rainbows. I really don't. There are many adults who think ghosts are real. What tragic event is going to happen because of their belief? Oh no, people believe in ghosts. And in horoscopes. And in a great skydaddy. And in the afterlife. Big deal. That's not what causes them to succeed or fail at leading good lives. Terrible food in grocery stores, that's a much more likely culprit behind the failure of a society's individuals. Starvation due to destroyed crops caused by global warming. That's the dangerous stuff. What matters is that kids have a good shot at living a good life and that they have the rights they deserve. We should treat them well and with kindness, and not force every single one of our views into their heads. Sometimes it doesn't matter if we're right or wrong. Sometimes what matters is kindness and nothing else. That's part of being an adult - learning to set priorities in life. Lets maybe not blow the fantasies of little kids completely out of proportion. Yes adolescents eventually figure it out for themselves because the vast majority of humans will reorient the adolescents to reality, even if it may make them cry. If the vast majority of humans actually placated the delusions of people pretending to be cats or bunnies that poop rainbows we might have a different outcome. I'd say we don't try that weird social experiment just out of the hopes that nobody will ever have to cry again. Also nobody is saying to go around telling 5 year olds that Santa isn't real. Again, we are talking about a 13 year old. This is considered an early adult in many cultures, for example the age at which a Jew would be bar/bat mitzvah'd. Infantilizing teenagers by thinking they are too fragile to be told their fantasies aren't real is just weird at best and harmful at worst. I'm hoping to get your take on something, because I feel like this fringe case isn't nearly as important as more popular fantasies that permeate our culture. If I remember correctly, you're an atheist like me. Do you think there might be some parallels between delusions of being a different species and delusions of religion? And which do you think is a bigger deal in society? Because I would hope that, as you put it, "the vast majority of humans will reorient the adolescents to reality, even if it may make them cry", yet a major counterexample of that is how we permit people to practice beliefs related to all sorts of imaginary and supernatural nonsense under the first amendment's freedom of religion. We rarely even correct it with formal education or casual conversation (as long as it doesn't directly hurt anyone else, supposedly). We just shrug and look the other way. In fact, rather than parents reorienting their kids, the parents are the ones pushing the fantasies in the first place! People believe in gods and souls and heavens and hells and all sorts of fantasies that help them sleep at night and give their lives meaning and purpose. While I think the one-in-a-million kid who might suppress the fact that they're a human is a kid who needs help, I think there are way bigger fish to fry if we're talking about pushing back on believing bullshit.
If you want to draw a direct parallel, if some kids made another kid cry because they told them their deity wasn't real and their belief in one is crazy, and the teacher admonished them for doing so and told them they should go to a different school then I would think that's equally absurd if not more so. You can also sub in unicorns, fairies, leprechauns, and any other mythical beings that you want and it probably won't change my take.
Also you're kind of making my point for me. Don't you think society might also be a little better if the vast majority of people corrected the delusions of religious fanatics? Or should we just let them believe gays should be stoned so we don't upset them?
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On July 11 2023 07:30 Magic Powers wrote:
There are many adults who think ghosts are real. What tragic event is going to happen because of their belief?
Mate, I know you meant this as a rhetorical question, but you just lived through such an event. Things like excess Covid deaths due to vaccine scepticism are going to happen due to their magical thinking.
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On July 11 2023 09:06 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 08:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2023 07:52 BlackJack wrote:On July 11 2023 07:30 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 07:03 BlackJack wrote:On July 11 2023 05:22 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 04:37 BlackJack wrote:On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states :
"All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."
If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate? 8 year old? It says grade 8 which would be 13 year olds. Seems a little late in the game to be using the “they are just a child playing pretend” argument. At some point you should be able to handle being told you’re not actually a cat without the adults jumping in to shelter you by telling your peers they need to go to another school. I used to believe I have magic powers (hence my name). I stopped believing in magic roughly when I turned 20 or so. I don't think a 13 y/o girl believing she's a cat is of harm to anyone. I'm more worried about others harming her, as evidenced by the fact that she cried because she got ridiculed. So you think we should reinforce people's delusions so as to not upset them? Do you think you're setting someone up to succeed in adulthood if you're coddling them so severely that you to pretend they are a cat so as to not upset them? Again this is a 13 year old, not a toddler. I think the idea that you're doing less harm here is extremely short-sighted. Taking a page out of your sarcasm playbook, yes we should pretend that Peter Pan is real and women get pregnant from a kiss. I don't know what you want me to say. Kids don't need the truth forcefed to them. They'll figure things out for themselves eventually. Many adults are immature in countless ways and yet somehow the world hasn't fallen apart. I don't think it matters if some people think they're bunnies that poop rainbows. I really don't. There are many adults who think ghosts are real. What tragic event is going to happen because of their belief? Oh no, people believe in ghosts. And in horoscopes. And in a great skydaddy. And in the afterlife. Big deal. That's not what causes them to succeed or fail at leading good lives. Terrible food in grocery stores, that's a much more likely culprit behind the failure of a society's individuals. Starvation due to destroyed crops caused by global warming. That's the dangerous stuff. What matters is that kids have a good shot at living a good life and that they have the rights they deserve. We should treat them well and with kindness, and not force every single one of our views into their heads. Sometimes it doesn't matter if we're right or wrong. Sometimes what matters is kindness and nothing else. That's part of being an adult - learning to set priorities in life. Lets maybe not blow the fantasies of little kids completely out of proportion. Yes adolescents eventually figure it out for themselves because the vast majority of humans will reorient the adolescents to reality, even if it may make them cry. If the vast majority of humans actually placated the delusions of people pretending to be cats or bunnies that poop rainbows we might have a different outcome. I'd say we don't try that weird social experiment just out of the hopes that nobody will ever have to cry again. Also nobody is saying to go around telling 5 year olds that Santa isn't real. Again, we are talking about a 13 year old. This is considered an early adult in many cultures, for example the age at which a Jew would be bar/bat mitzvah'd. Infantilizing teenagers by thinking they are too fragile to be told their fantasies aren't real is just weird at best and harmful at worst. I'm hoping to get your take on something, because I feel like this fringe case isn't nearly as important as more popular fantasies that permeate our culture. If I remember correctly, you're an atheist like me. Do you think there might be some parallels between delusions of being a different species and delusions of religion? And which do you think is a bigger deal in society? Because I would hope that, as you put it, "the vast majority of humans will reorient the adolescents to reality, even if it may make them cry", yet a major counterexample of that is how we permit people to practice beliefs related to all sorts of imaginary and supernatural nonsense under the first amendment's freedom of religion. We rarely even correct it with formal education or casual conversation (as long as it doesn't directly hurt anyone else, supposedly). We just shrug and look the other way. In fact, rather than parents reorienting their kids, the parents are the ones pushing the fantasies in the first place! People believe in gods and souls and heavens and hells and all sorts of fantasies that help them sleep at night and give their lives meaning and purpose. While I think the one-in-a-million kid who might suppress the fact that they're a human is a kid who needs help, I think there are way bigger fish to fry if we're talking about pushing back on believing bullshit. By expanding this discussion to now include religious beliefs, there are no signs of the original topic anymore.
The original topics being the 10+ pages of gender identity, trans bathroom rights, and how to define "woman"? I'd say you're right, although it was certainly becoming repetitive. Is there a fresh take on it that you think we could explore?
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On July 11 2023 09:08 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 08:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2023 07:52 BlackJack wrote:On July 11 2023 07:30 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 07:03 BlackJack wrote:On July 11 2023 05:22 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 04:37 BlackJack wrote:On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states :
"All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."
If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate? 8 year old? It says grade 8 which would be 13 year olds. Seems a little late in the game to be using the “they are just a child playing pretend” argument. At some point you should be able to handle being told you’re not actually a cat without the adults jumping in to shelter you by telling your peers they need to go to another school. I used to believe I have magic powers (hence my name). I stopped believing in magic roughly when I turned 20 or so. I don't think a 13 y/o girl believing she's a cat is of harm to anyone. I'm more worried about others harming her, as evidenced by the fact that she cried because she got ridiculed. So you think we should reinforce people's delusions so as to not upset them? Do you think you're setting someone up to succeed in adulthood if you're coddling them so severely that you to pretend they are a cat so as to not upset them? Again this is a 13 year old, not a toddler. I think the idea that you're doing less harm here is extremely short-sighted. Taking a page out of your sarcasm playbook, yes we should pretend that Peter Pan is real and women get pregnant from a kiss. I don't know what you want me to say. Kids don't need the truth forcefed to them. They'll figure things out for themselves eventually. Many adults are immature in countless ways and yet somehow the world hasn't fallen apart. I don't think it matters if some people think they're bunnies that poop rainbows. I really don't. There are many adults who think ghosts are real. What tragic event is going to happen because of their belief? Oh no, people believe in ghosts. And in horoscopes. And in a great skydaddy. And in the afterlife. Big deal. That's not what causes them to succeed or fail at leading good lives. Terrible food in grocery stores, that's a much more likely culprit behind the failure of a society's individuals. Starvation due to destroyed crops caused by global warming. That's the dangerous stuff. What matters is that kids have a good shot at living a good life and that they have the rights they deserve. We should treat them well and with kindness, and not force every single one of our views into their heads. Sometimes it doesn't matter if we're right or wrong. Sometimes what matters is kindness and nothing else. That's part of being an adult - learning to set priorities in life. Lets maybe not blow the fantasies of little kids completely out of proportion. Yes adolescents eventually figure it out for themselves because the vast majority of humans will reorient the adolescents to reality, even if it may make them cry. If the vast majority of humans actually placated the delusions of people pretending to be cats or bunnies that poop rainbows we might have a different outcome. I'd say we don't try that weird social experiment just out of the hopes that nobody will ever have to cry again. Also nobody is saying to go around telling 5 year olds that Santa isn't real. Again, we are talking about a 13 year old. This is considered an early adult in many cultures, for example the age at which a Jew would be bar/bat mitzvah'd. Infantilizing teenagers by thinking they are too fragile to be told their fantasies aren't real is just weird at best and harmful at worst. I'm hoping to get your take on something, because I feel like this fringe case isn't nearly as important as more popular fantasies that permeate our culture. If I remember correctly, you're an atheist like me. Do you think there might be some parallels between delusions of being a different species and delusions of religion? And which do you think is a bigger deal in society? Because I would hope that, as you put it, "the vast majority of humans will reorient the adolescents to reality, even if it may make them cry", yet a major counterexample of that is how we permit people to practice beliefs related to all sorts of imaginary and supernatural nonsense under the first amendment's freedom of religion. We rarely even correct it with formal education or casual conversation (as long as it doesn't directly hurt anyone else, supposedly). We just shrug and look the other way. In fact, rather than parents reorienting their kids, the parents are the ones pushing the fantasies in the first place! People believe in gods and souls and heavens and hells and all sorts of fantasies that help them sleep at night and give their lives meaning and purpose. While I think the one-in-a-million kid who might suppress the fact that they're a human is a kid who needs help, I think there are way bigger fish to fry if we're talking about pushing back on believing bullshit. If you want to draw a direct parallel, if some kids made another kid cry because they told them their deity wasn't real and their belief in one is crazy, and the teacher admonished them for doing so and told them they should go to a different school then I would think that's equally absurd if not more so. You can also sub in unicorns, fairies, leprechauns, and any other mythical beings that you want and it probably won't change my take. Also you're kind of making my point for me. Don't you think society might also be a little better if the vast majority of people corrected the delusions of religious fanatics? Or should we just let them believe gays should be stoned so we don't upset them?
I think it'd be a lot better, but you were talking about how society self-corrects delusional nonsense. It often doesn't, which I think is tragic, and religion is a far bigger, more influential, deal than a cat person.
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On July 11 2023 09:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 09:08 BlackJack wrote:On July 11 2023 08:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2023 07:52 BlackJack wrote:On July 11 2023 07:30 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 07:03 BlackJack wrote:On July 11 2023 05:22 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 04:37 BlackJack wrote:On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate? 8 year old? It says grade 8 which would be 13 year olds. Seems a little late in the game to be using the “they are just a child playing pretend” argument. At some point you should be able to handle being told you’re not actually a cat without the adults jumping in to shelter you by telling your peers they need to go to another school. I used to believe I have magic powers (hence my name). I stopped believing in magic roughly when I turned 20 or so. I don't think a 13 y/o girl believing she's a cat is of harm to anyone. I'm more worried about others harming her, as evidenced by the fact that she cried because she got ridiculed. So you think we should reinforce people's delusions so as to not upset them? Do you think you're setting someone up to succeed in adulthood if you're coddling them so severely that you to pretend they are a cat so as to not upset them? Again this is a 13 year old, not a toddler. I think the idea that you're doing less harm here is extremely short-sighted. Taking a page out of your sarcasm playbook, yes we should pretend that Peter Pan is real and women get pregnant from a kiss. I don't know what you want me to say. Kids don't need the truth forcefed to them. They'll figure things out for themselves eventually. Many adults are immature in countless ways and yet somehow the world hasn't fallen apart. I don't think it matters if some people think they're bunnies that poop rainbows. I really don't. There are many adults who think ghosts are real. What tragic event is going to happen because of their belief? Oh no, people believe in ghosts. And in horoscopes. And in a great skydaddy. And in the afterlife. Big deal. That's not what causes them to succeed or fail at leading good lives. Terrible food in grocery stores, that's a much more likely culprit behind the failure of a society's individuals. Starvation due to destroyed crops caused by global warming. That's the dangerous stuff. What matters is that kids have a good shot at living a good life and that they have the rights they deserve. We should treat them well and with kindness, and not force every single one of our views into their heads. Sometimes it doesn't matter if we're right or wrong. Sometimes what matters is kindness and nothing else. That's part of being an adult - learning to set priorities in life. Lets maybe not blow the fantasies of little kids completely out of proportion. Yes adolescents eventually figure it out for themselves because the vast majority of humans will reorient the adolescents to reality, even if it may make them cry. If the vast majority of humans actually placated the delusions of people pretending to be cats or bunnies that poop rainbows we might have a different outcome. I'd say we don't try that weird social experiment just out of the hopes that nobody will ever have to cry again. Also nobody is saying to go around telling 5 year olds that Santa isn't real. Again, we are talking about a 13 year old. This is considered an early adult in many cultures, for example the age at which a Jew would be bar/bat mitzvah'd. Infantilizing teenagers by thinking they are too fragile to be told their fantasies aren't real is just weird at best and harmful at worst. I'm hoping to get your take on something, because I feel like this fringe case isn't nearly as important as more popular fantasies that permeate our culture. If I remember correctly, you're an atheist like me. Do you think there might be some parallels between delusions of being a different species and delusions of religion? And which do you think is a bigger deal in society? Because I would hope that, as you put it, "the vast majority of humans will reorient the adolescents to reality, even if it may make them cry", yet a major counterexample of that is how we permit people to practice beliefs related to all sorts of imaginary and supernatural nonsense under the first amendment's freedom of religion. We rarely even correct it with formal education or casual conversation (as long as it doesn't directly hurt anyone else, supposedly). We just shrug and look the other way. In fact, rather than parents reorienting their kids, the parents are the ones pushing the fantasies in the first place! People believe in gods and souls and heavens and hells and all sorts of fantasies that help them sleep at night and give their lives meaning and purpose. While I think the one-in-a-million kid who might suppress the fact that they're a human is a kid who needs help, I think there are way bigger fish to fry if we're talking about pushing back on believing bullshit. If you want to draw a direct parallel, if some kids made another kid cry because they told them their deity wasn't real and their belief in one is crazy, and the teacher admonished them for doing so and told them they should go to a different school then I would think that's equally absurd if not more so. You can also sub in unicorns, fairies, leprechauns, and any other mythical beings that you want and it probably won't change my take. Also you're kind of making my point for me. Don't you think society might also be a little better if the vast majority of people corrected the delusions of religious fanatics? Or should we just let them believe gays should be stoned so we don't upset them? I think it'd be a lot better, but you were talking about how society self-corrects delusional nonsense. It often doesn't, which I think is tragic.
Agreed
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Also should point out that this idea that we should protect people from anything that may upset them as a way to reduce harm is often based off conjecture instead of rigorous scientific research. For example take Trigger Warnings - the idea that, for example, University students should be given a warning if a lecture of discussion could have content that may upset them so they can leave the room if they wish. There's research that suggest Trigger Warnings fail to help and may even cause harm.. This is several years old and trigger warnings still persist despite the lack of evidence for their efficacy. So I'd be leery of anyone that insists the science is on their side when it comes to matters of shielding people from upsetting ideas.
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On July 11 2023 09:25 BlackJack wrote:Also should point out that this idea that we should protect people from anything that may upset them as a way to reduce harm is often based off conjecture instead of rigorous scientific research. For example take Trigger Warnings - the idea that, for example, University students should be given a warning if a lecture of discussion could have content that may upset them so they can leave the room if they wish. There's research that suggest Trigger Warnings fail to help and may even cause harm.. This is several years old and trigger warnings still persist despite the lack of evidence for their efficacy. So I'd be leery of anyone that insists the science is on their side when it comes to matters of shielding people from upsetting ideas.
You are right to point out that trigger warnings are a good example of twitter shitters taking an idea and running with it. But the 2 situations are not the same. Well, I suppose 3 situations.
1) Gender dysphoria
2) Minor adolescent delusions
3) Trigger warnings
Each of these situations have different core mechanisms and can't be compared in much detail before the assumptions of each fall apart. It just isn't a worthwhile comparison. And the comparison isn't necessary anyway since there is already a clear topic with a well understood dynamic. There is no reason to make comparisons to litter boxes and trigger warnings when dysphoria is already a topic understood by all of us participating in the discussion.
What are you saying about gender dysphoria specifically? It sounds like you are saying we shouldn't tell trans people something we know isn't true? I honestly don't understand the point you are making here, which is why I am saying the comparison isn't really helping.
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I wasn’t making any point about gender dysphoria as it relates to furries. It sounds like the teacher that scolded the girls for saying the other girl can’t be a cat was making some comparison to gender although I’m not sure how it relates.
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On July 11 2023 09:25 BlackJack wrote:Also should point out that this idea that we should protect people from anything that may upset them as a way to reduce harm is often based off conjecture instead of rigorous scientific research. For example take Trigger Warnings - the idea that, for example, University students should be given a warning if a lecture of discussion could have content that may upset them so they can leave the room if they wish. There's research that suggest Trigger Warnings fail to help and may even cause harm.. This is several years old and trigger warnings still persist despite the lack of evidence for their efficacy. So I'd be leery of anyone that insists the science is on their side when it comes to matters of shielding people from upsetting ideas.
I think receiving, accepting, and moving past triggers, delusions, and trauma fall under the "be careful and pick the right time and place when addressing them, because unprepared people could experience more harm than good" category. Do I think it's healthy for people to be negatively triggered by something? Generally no. But do I think we should rush into forcing someone to get over something when they're not ready? Also generally no. This is why therapy and emotional support and proper outlets for communication and education are crucial.
For that reason, I don't think trigger warnings are necessarily a bad thing - in fact, they might be helpful to have, before a person is ready to deal with something - but we should hope that the person eventually doesn't need/want them anymore. It also looks like most research is lukewarm to them: trigger warnings aren't miraculously positive, but not devastatingly negative either. It seems like it's okay to keep the trigger warnings while also gradually addressing the underlying issues in a safe and responsible manner, unless there eventually ends up being more studies reliably replicating more-negative-than-positive effects of trigger warnings.
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On July 11 2023 05:32 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 04:33 cLutZ wrote:On July 10 2023 15:51 Mikau wrote:On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
The fact that there exist confusing edge cases of these is a natural consequence of nature's foibles.
On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
None of those questions actually apply to trans people.
Why are you accepting one set of 'confusing edge cases' as being natural but dismiss the very real edge case being discussed here? Is it perhaps because you want to pretend that trans people aren't just "natural consequences of nature's foibles"? Because Trans people aren't even capable of telling me what they are asking for. Again, the mantra is "a woman is a person who identifies as a woman." They aren't even telling me what they are identifying as, because it is recursive. This is completely different than people who are genetically XX but have reproductive issues so severe they never generated an egg, don't undergo puberty, etc. In fact, I am totally fine excluding such severe cases from both the female and the woman classifications. I think that result is strictly superior to allowing some .01% thing break all of biological classifications for dimorphic species. We can call all individuals without gametes unsexed. I am honestly lost at this point. I can't tell what perspectives you are currently putting forth. In which situations do you believe a trans woman should be treated differently than a cis woman? We can ignore the obvious stuff like medical stuff or getting pregnant or whatever.
I think they should be treated differently in pretty much all instances. Bathrooms, sports, medical, and even social situations. We've all experienced a woman who is a little drunk and raging at people over something. Great thing about this is two men can just forcibly sit her down with no real risk to any of the 3. A MTF? Heck no. Now what we have is just a barfight where someone is in drag. That is actually one of the real problems with a large swathe of the MTF population: They have the temperament of a man (except even more messed up now because they have gained some hormonal instability), with at least a portion of the build and strength of one, while expecting the social deference of a woman. TBH, it generally strikes me a fairly large social cost with all the benefits just going to the trans individual.
OTOH FTM are generally cases where I find myself just saddened. The MTFs are the loud mouthpieces of the movement, but the FTMs are increasingly the larger cohort among the young, and they almost all generally strike me as sad. E. Page is the face of my perception of this phenomenon, but I see that experience of shock with the two I know IRL (through work). Both went from conventionally attractive women to conventionally unattractive men, and are now even more depressed (one was eventually fired after they didn't come into the office for 5 months due to the depression). This is how I know a man doesn't know what it is to identify as a woman, because the women that try to identify as a man run straight into sticker shock at how little the world gives a shit about you.
I think this societal duality is fine and just. Sperm is cheap, eggs and wombs are not. Other people may disagree with such a sentiment, but, there it is.
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United States43902 Posts
What on earth are you talking about?
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On July 11 2023 12:16 KwarK wrote:
What on earth are you talking about?
I thought he was incredibly clear: Trans-women don't deserve to use the women's bathroom because when they get drunk, they turn into the Incredible Hulk. Totally makes sense. Duh.
Edit: Also, "sperm is cheap". Checkmate, trans community.
Double Edit: Also also, trans-men are just tragically ugly to look at.
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United States43902 Posts
He lost me around the part where he explained that one of the main disadvantages of trans women is that you and your buddies can't overpower them when they get drunk the way you normally would with a cis woman.
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On July 11 2023 12:58 KwarK wrote:
He lost me around the part where he explained that one of the main disadvantages of trans women is that you and your buddies can't overpower them when they get drunk the way you normally would with a cis woman.
Trans-men have the strength of a dozen cis-men.
I heard Hercules was trans.
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On July 11 2023 12:58 KwarK wrote:
He lost me around the part where he explained that one of the main disadvantages of trans women is that you and your buddies can't overpower them when they get drunk the way you normally would with a cis woman.
Uhh, yes? If a person is freaking out like a crazy person, we prefer they be easily detained. MTFs are not, but they are attempting to veer into the norm of women who aren't just dealt with by mob justice (a man doing what trans men do would just be stomped to death and no DA would care).
Edit: Not really to death. But any sane person knows what I meant.
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On July 11 2023 11:57 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 05:32 Mohdoo wrote:On July 11 2023 04:33 cLutZ wrote:On July 10 2023 15:51 Mikau wrote:On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
The fact that there exist confusing edge cases of these is a natural consequence of nature's foibles.
On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
None of those questions actually apply to trans people.
Why are you accepting one set of 'confusing edge cases' as being natural but dismiss the very real edge case being discussed here? Is it perhaps because you want to pretend that trans people aren't just "natural consequences of nature's foibles"? Because Trans people aren't even capable of telling me what they are asking for. Again, the mantra is "a woman is a person who identifies as a woman." They aren't even telling me what they are identifying as, because it is recursive. This is completely different than people who are genetically XX but have reproductive issues so severe they never generated an egg, don't undergo puberty, etc. In fact, I am totally fine excluding such severe cases from both the female and the woman classifications. I think that result is strictly superior to allowing some .01% thing break all of biological classifications for dimorphic species. We can call all individuals without gametes unsexed. I am honestly lost at this point. I can't tell what perspectives you are currently putting forth. In which situations do you believe a trans woman should be treated differently than a cis woman? We can ignore the obvious stuff like medical stuff or getting pregnant or whatever. I think they should be treated differently in pretty much all instances. Bathrooms, sports, medical, and even social situations. We've all experienced a woman who is a little drunk and raging at people over something. Great thing about this is two men can just forcibly sit her down with no real risk to any of the 3. A MTF? Heck no. Now what we have is just a barfight where someone is in drag. That is actually one of the real problems with a large swathe of the MTF population: They have the temperament of a man (except even more messed up now because they have gained some hormonal instability), with at least a portion of the build and strength of one, while expecting the social deference of a woman. TBH, it generally strikes me a fairly large social cost with all the benefits just going to the trans individual. OTOH FTM are generally cases where I find myself just saddened. The MTFs are the loud mouthpieces of the movement, but the FTMs are increasingly the larger cohort among the young, and they almost all generally strike me as sad. E. Page is the face of my perception of this phenomenon, but I see that experience of shock with the two I know IRL (through work). Both went from conventionally attractive women to conventionally unattractive men, and are now even more depressed (one was eventually fired after they didn't come into the office for 5 months due to the depression). This is how I know a man doesn't know what it is to identify as a woman, because the women that try to identify as a man run straight into sticker shock at how little the world gives a shit about you. I think this societal duality is fine and just. Sperm is cheap, eggs and wombs are not. Other people may disagree with such a sentiment, but, there it is.
Its a very uncomfortable truth I take no pleasure in admitting, but I will say the trans women I know on HRT definitely all suffer from what is essentially roid-rage. We should give them the same considerations as other people who are medicated for issues leading to behavioral/personality abnormalities. There are reasons people with certain mental disorders are given disability considerations by their employer and/or the government. They are in a uniquely difficult situation and sympathy is a moral obligation as a member of society. We ought to be kind and empathetic towards people who are suffering without any guilt or blame.
If someone is being roid-ragey, other people are not bound by moral imperative to spend time with them. And of course no one should tolerate physical violence in any context. But I have not found physical violence from trans women to be common at all. Easily pissed off, overly-argumentative, and generally overly impassioned? Yeah, often. But there's no reason to assume trans women will be violent.
I don't think you are wrong to point out the dynamic exists, but are you saying trans women should be treated differently from the beginning, or responded to when they have behavioral issues? It is a crucial distinction.
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United States43902 Posts
On July 11 2023 13:49 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 11:57 cLutZ wrote:On July 11 2023 05:32 Mohdoo wrote:On July 11 2023 04:33 cLutZ wrote:On July 10 2023 15:51 Mikau wrote:On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
The fact that there exist confusing edge cases of these is a natural consequence of nature's foibles.
On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
None of those questions actually apply to trans people.
Why are you accepting one set of 'confusing edge cases' as being natural but dismiss the very real edge case being discussed here? Is it perhaps because you want to pretend that trans people aren't just "natural consequences of nature's foibles"? Because Trans people aren't even capable of telling me what they are asking for. Again, the mantra is "a woman is a person who identifies as a woman." They aren't even telling me what they are identifying as, because it is recursive. This is completely different than people who are genetically XX but have reproductive issues so severe they never generated an egg, don't undergo puberty, etc. In fact, I am totally fine excluding such severe cases from both the female and the woman classifications. I think that result is strictly superior to allowing some .01% thing break all of biological classifications for dimorphic species. We can call all individuals without gametes unsexed. I am honestly lost at this point. I can't tell what perspectives you are currently putting forth. In which situations do you believe a trans woman should be treated differently than a cis woman? We can ignore the obvious stuff like medical stuff or getting pregnant or whatever. I think they should be treated differently in pretty much all instances. Bathrooms, sports, medical, and even social situations. We've all experienced a woman who is a little drunk and raging at people over something. Great thing about this is two men can just forcibly sit her down with no real risk to any of the 3. A MTF? Heck no. Now what we have is just a barfight where someone is in drag. That is actually one of the real problems with a large swathe of the MTF population: They have the temperament of a man (except even more messed up now because they have gained some hormonal instability), with at least a portion of the build and strength of one, while expecting the social deference of a woman. TBH, it generally strikes me a fairly large social cost with all the benefits just going to the trans individual. OTOH FTM are generally cases where I find myself just saddened. The MTFs are the loud mouthpieces of the movement, but the FTMs are increasingly the larger cohort among the young, and they almost all generally strike me as sad. E. Page is the face of my perception of this phenomenon, but I see that experience of shock with the two I know IRL (through work). Both went from conventionally attractive women to conventionally unattractive men, and are now even more depressed (one was eventually fired after they didn't come into the office for 5 months due to the depression). This is how I know a man doesn't know what it is to identify as a woman, because the women that try to identify as a man run straight into sticker shock at how little the world gives a shit about you. I think this societal duality is fine and just. Sperm is cheap, eggs and wombs are not. Other people may disagree with such a sentiment, but, there it is. Its a very uncomfortable truth I take no pleasure in admitting, but I will say the trans women I know on HRT definitely all suffer from what is essentially roid-rage. We should give them the same considerations as other people who are medicated for issues leading to behavioral/personality abnormalities. There are reasons people with certain mental disorders are given disability considerations by their employer and/or the government. They are in a uniquely difficult situation and sympathy is a moral obligation as a member of society. We ought to be kind and empathetic towards people who are suffering without any guilt or blame. If someone is being roid-ragey, other people are not bound by moral imperative to spend time with them. And of course no one should tolerate physical violence in any context. But I have not found physical violence from trans women to be common at all. Easily pissed off, overly-argumentative, and generally overly impassioned? Yeah, often. But there's no reason to assume trans women will be violent. I don't think you are wrong to point out the dynamic exists, but are you saying trans women should be treated differently from the beginning, or responded to when they have behavioral issues? It is a crucial distinction.
He didn't describe physical violence from the drunk girl, just anger. There was no violence coming from the women in his rambling string of words. The first assault that took place was when clutz and his buddies find a drunk girl and forcibly make her do things because they think she's too angry.
Dude was literally complaining that it's harder to assault trans women than cis. He didn't even say that trans women are more likely to be angry, only that when confronted with an angry trans woman he's less willing to find his buddy and overpower her.
It was a very very strange post. Wombs are valuable and therefore if you see a drunk girl in a bar then you should find a buddy and overpower her. That's the only way to make her less angry. But do a penis check first because if she's trans then it won't calm her down and may even make her more angry.
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On July 11 2023 14:35 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 13:49 Mohdoo wrote:On July 11 2023 11:57 cLutZ wrote:On July 11 2023 05:32 Mohdoo wrote:On July 11 2023 04:33 cLutZ wrote:On July 10 2023 15:51 Mikau wrote:On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
The fact that there exist confusing edge cases of these is a natural consequence of nature's foibles.
On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
None of those questions actually apply to trans people.
Why are you accepting one set of 'confusing edge cases' as being natural but dismiss the very real edge case being discussed here? Is it perhaps because you want to pretend that trans people aren't just "natural consequences of nature's foibles"? Because Trans people aren't even capable of telling me what they are asking for. Again, the mantra is "a woman is a person who identifies as a woman." They aren't even telling me what they are identifying as, because it is recursive. This is completely different than people who are genetically XX but have reproductive issues so severe they never generated an egg, don't undergo puberty, etc. In fact, I am totally fine excluding such severe cases from both the female and the woman classifications. I think that result is strictly superior to allowing some .01% thing break all of biological classifications for dimorphic species. We can call all individuals without gametes unsexed. I am honestly lost at this point. I can't tell what perspectives you are currently putting forth. In which situations do you believe a trans woman should be treated differently than a cis woman? We can ignore the obvious stuff like medical stuff or getting pregnant or whatever. I think they should be treated differently in pretty much all instances. Bathrooms, sports, medical, and even social situations. We've all experienced a woman who is a little drunk and raging at people over something. Great thing about this is two men can just forcibly sit her down with no real risk to any of the 3. A MTF? Heck no. Now what we have is just a barfight where someone is in drag. That is actually one of the real problems with a large swathe of the MTF population: They have the temperament of a man (except even more messed up now because they have gained some hormonal instability), with at least a portion of the build and strength of one, while expecting the social deference of a woman. TBH, it generally strikes me a fairly large social cost with all the benefits just going to the trans individual. OTOH FTM are generally cases where I find myself just saddened. The MTFs are the loud mouthpieces of the movement, but the FTMs are increasingly the larger cohort among the young, and they almost all generally strike me as sad. E. Page is the face of my perception of this phenomenon, but I see that experience of shock with the two I know IRL (through work). Both went from conventionally attractive women to conventionally unattractive men, and are now even more depressed (one was eventually fired after they didn't come into the office for 5 months due to the depression). This is how I know a man doesn't know what it is to identify as a woman, because the women that try to identify as a man run straight into sticker shock at how little the world gives a shit about you. I think this societal duality is fine and just. Sperm is cheap, eggs and wombs are not. Other people may disagree with such a sentiment, but, there it is. Its a very uncomfortable truth I take no pleasure in admitting, but I will say the trans women I know on HRT definitely all suffer from what is essentially roid-rage. We should give them the same considerations as other people who are medicated for issues leading to behavioral/personality abnormalities. There are reasons people with certain mental disorders are given disability considerations by their employer and/or the government. They are in a uniquely difficult situation and sympathy is a moral obligation as a member of society. We ought to be kind and empathetic towards people who are suffering without any guilt or blame. If someone is being roid-ragey, other people are not bound by moral imperative to spend time with them. And of course no one should tolerate physical violence in any context. But I have not found physical violence from trans women to be common at all. Easily pissed off, overly-argumentative, and generally overly impassioned? Yeah, often. But there's no reason to assume trans women will be violent. I don't think you are wrong to point out the dynamic exists, but are you saying trans women should be treated differently from the beginning, or responded to when they have behavioral issues? It is a crucial distinction. He didn't describe physical violence from the drunk girl, just anger. There was no violence coming from the women in his rambling string of words. The first assault that took place was when clutz and his buddies find a drunk girl and forcibly make her do things because they think she's too angry. Dude was literally complaining that it's harder to assault trans women than cis. He didn't even say that trans women are more likely to be angry, only that when confronted with an angry trans woman he's less willing to find his buddy and overpower her. It was a very very strange post. Wombs are valuable and therefore if you see a drunk girl in a bar then you should find a buddy and overpower her. That's the only way to make her less angry. But do a penis check first because if she's trans then it won't calm her down and may even make her more angry.
He said "barfight" and "(except even more messed up now because they have gained some hormonal instability)". So he was describing both violence and the impact of HRT. I think he was referring to how HRT can alter behavior.
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Oooh ooh can we argue next about how Elliot Page was a conventionally attractive female previously but is now a conventionally unattractive male and how that represents a loss for the world?
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EPT
