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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On July 11 2023 04:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 04:37 BlackJack wrote:On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate? 8 year old? It says grade 8 which would be 13 year olds. Seems a little late in the game to be using the “they are just a child playing pretend” argument. At some point you should be able to handle being told you’re not actually a cat without the adults jumping in to shelter you by telling your peers they need to go to another school. My bad. I don't think it becomes more significant of a story though, it's still 1 just 1 person being weird and some people arguably not responding perfectly to a type of weirdness they've prolly never encountered before. This type of story is part of a greater 'omg nothing is factual anymore and people are being way too permissive of people holding crazy ideas' narrative, akin to the 'girl who claimed to be a cat demanded a litterbox' and in my opinion trying to establish narratives based on singular stories in countries with 70 or 330 million people is kinda silly - a principle I happily extend the other way too.
Yeah I agree if a girl pretends to be a cat and demands a litter box it’s a non-story. If, however, the school acquiesces and puts a litter box in the bathroom for her that’s worth discussing. But as far as I know that story was debunked a while ago
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On July 11 2023 04:33 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 15:51 Mikau wrote:On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
The fact that there exist confusing edge cases of these is a natural consequence of nature's foibles.
On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
None of those questions actually apply to trans people.
Why are you accepting one set of 'confusing edge cases' as being natural but dismiss the very real edge case being discussed here? Is it perhaps because you want to pretend that trans people aren't just "natural consequences of nature's foibles"? Because Trans people aren't even capable of telling me what they are asking for. Again, the mantra is "a woman is a person who identifies as a woman." They aren't even telling me what they are identifying as, because it is recursive. This is completely different than people who are genetically XX but have reproductive issues so severe they never generated an egg, don't undergo puberty, etc. In fact, I am totally fine excluding such severe cases from both the female and the woman classifications. I think that result is strictly superior to allowing some .01% thing break all of biological classifications for dimorphic species. We can call all individuals without gametes unsexed.
Once again, you're asking trans people for the answer when cis people don't even have it yet. Ask 10 cis men and 10 cis women what it means for them to be a man/woman and you'll get 20 different answers. You can find certain trends, but ultimately what it means for a person to be a man or a woman is entirely up to them. That's the journey of self-discovery we call life, and is ultimately what freedom should be about.
What does it mean for a trans woman to identify as a woman? The same kind of thing any cis woman might say about her womanhood. You ask them, if you're interested, and you listen, if they feel like telling you (or if they even know what to say at all). And that's all you need to know. They don't need to prove to you that their claim of womanhood is scientifically meritorious, any more than I need to prove my claim of manhood as a cis man. We don't live in a society where you have to fertilize an egg in front of witnesses to pass as a man. We just live in a society.
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On July 11 2023 04:33 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 15:51 Mikau wrote:On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
The fact that there exist confusing edge cases of these is a natural consequence of nature's foibles.
On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
None of those questions actually apply to trans people.
Why are you accepting one set of 'confusing edge cases' as being natural but dismiss the very real edge case being discussed here? Is it perhaps because you want to pretend that trans people aren't just "natural consequences of nature's foibles"? Because Trans people aren't even capable of telling me what they are asking for. Again, the mantra is "a woman is a person who identifies as a woman." They aren't even telling me what they are identifying as, because it is recursive. This is completely different than people who are genetically XX but have reproductive issues so severe they never generated an egg, don't undergo puberty, etc. In fact, I am totally fine excluding such severe cases from both the female and the woman classifications. I think that result is strictly superior to allowing some .01% thing break all of biological classifications for dimorphic species. We can call all individuals without gametes unsexed.
Let me be honest with you. As a cis man, I also have a hard time explaining to you what it means to me to be a man. I've thought about it occasionally, and I still can't figure it out. For the most part the reason why I consider myself a man is that I'm just used to the idea. The only thing I know is that I'm more similar to men than to women. This doesn't tell me very much about my own manhood.
I went to a grocery store once to buy some spirit, and the clerk (a young woman) asked me for my ID. I was 25 at the time. The legal purchasing age for spirits was 18. I thought it was absurd. How could I possibly not pass as a grown man, a full seven years after legally becoming one? Fortunately I was never asked for my ID since, but that experience stuck with me for a while. It did upset me in the moment, but more importantly it also made me question what it means to be a man. Maybe I had the wrong idea about it? Maybe it wasn't so much about appearance or biological fact, and more about what's inside?
Granted, that was an anecdote about my age, not my gender. But age, I would argue, is easily as essential to our identity as gender.
I can tell similar stories about how old people used to misgender me when I was a kid, thinking I was a girl because of my relatively feminine features. The elderly grew up in a simpler world, when distinctions between boys and girls were more apparent, as they were often enforced.
We've been moving away from these distinctions. I think it's time to rethink our understanding of many things.
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On July 11 2023 04:37 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate? 8 year old? It says grade 8 which would be 13 year olds. Seems a little late in the game to be using the “they are just a child playing pretend” argument. At some point you should be able to handle being told you’re not actually a cat without the adults jumping in to shelter you by telling your peers they need to go to another school.
I used to believe I have magic powers (hence my name). I stopped believing in magic roughly when I turned 20 or so.
I don't think a 13 y/o girl believing she's a cat is of harm to anyone. I'm more worried about others harming her, as evidenced by the fact that she cried because she got ridiculed.
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This thread is like groundhog day right now. Every day a new conservative face shows up to repeat the question everybody already discussed in great detail in the about 30 pages of so that this discussion has been going on.
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On July 11 2023 04:33 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 15:51 Mikau wrote:On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
The fact that there exist confusing edge cases of these is a natural consequence of nature's foibles.
On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
None of those questions actually apply to trans people.
Why are you accepting one set of 'confusing edge cases' as being natural but dismiss the very real edge case being discussed here? Is it perhaps because you want to pretend that trans people aren't just "natural consequences of nature's foibles"? Because Trans people aren't even capable of telling me what they are asking for. Again, the mantra is "a woman is a person who identifies as a woman." They aren't even telling me what they are identifying as, because it is recursive. This is completely different than people who are genetically XX but have reproductive issues so severe they never generated an egg, don't undergo puberty, etc. In fact, I am totally fine excluding such severe cases from both the female and the woman classifications. I think that result is strictly superior to allowing some .01% thing break all of biological classifications for dimorphic species. We can call all individuals without gametes unsexed.
I am honestly lost at this point. I can't tell what perspectives you are currently putting forth.
In which situations do you believe a trans woman should be treated differently than a cis woman? We can ignore the obvious stuff like medical stuff or getting pregnant or whatever.
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On July 11 2023 04:48 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 04:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 11 2023 04:37 BlackJack wrote:On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate? 8 year old? It says grade 8 which would be 13 year olds. Seems a little late in the game to be using the “they are just a child playing pretend” argument. At some point you should be able to handle being told you’re not actually a cat without the adults jumping in to shelter you by telling your peers they need to go to another school. My bad. I don't think it becomes more significant of a story though, it's still 1 just 1 person being weird and some people arguably not responding perfectly to a type of weirdness they've prolly never encountered before. This type of story is part of a greater 'omg nothing is factual anymore and people are being way too permissive of people holding crazy ideas' narrative, akin to the 'girl who claimed to be a cat demanded a litterbox' and in my opinion trying to establish narratives based on singular stories in countries with 70 or 330 million people is kinda silly - a principle I happily extend the other way too. Yeah I agree if a girl pretends to be a cat and demands a litter box it’s a non-story. If, however, the school acquiesces and puts a litter box in the bathroom for her that’s worth discussing. But as far as I know that story was debunked a while ago
The litterboxs were confirmed that they were being put into class rooms for kids to use.
They were put there in case of a school shooting and they couldn't leave the classroom to go to the bathroom.
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On July 11 2023 06:05 Sermokala wrote:
The litterboxs were confirmed that they were being put into class rooms for kids to use.
They were put there in case of a school shooting and they couldn't leave the classroom to go to the bathroom. Finally we are talking about something interesting. Is this real?
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On July 11 2023 04:33 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 15:51 Mikau wrote:On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
The fact that there exist confusing edge cases of these is a natural consequence of nature's foibles.
On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
None of those questions actually apply to trans people.
Why are you accepting one set of 'confusing edge cases' as being natural but dismiss the very real edge case being discussed here? Is it perhaps because you want to pretend that trans people aren't just "natural consequences of nature's foibles"? Because Trans people aren't even capable of telling me what they are asking for.
? They are crystal clear.
They're asking to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity.
They're asking to not experience gender discrimination with respect to employment, education, housing, and federal programs.
They're asking to respect their preferred pronouns and names.
They're asking to spread awareness that gender doesn't always line up with biological sex, and that both gender and sex are more nuanced and imperfectly defined (from scientific, social, and linguistic perspectives) than laypeople realize.
You may or may not agree with what they want or believe, but trans rights are not a mystery.
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On July 11 2023 05:22 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 04:37 BlackJack wrote:On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate? 8 year old? It says grade 8 which would be 13 year olds. Seems a little late in the game to be using the “they are just a child playing pretend” argument. At some point you should be able to handle being told you’re not actually a cat without the adults jumping in to shelter you by telling your peers they need to go to another school. I used to believe I have magic powers (hence my name). I stopped believing in magic roughly when I turned 20 or so. I don't think a 13 y/o girl believing she's a cat is of harm to anyone. I'm more worried about others harming her, as evidenced by the fact that she cried because she got ridiculed.
So you think we should reinforce people's delusions so as to not upset them? Do you think you're setting someone up to succeed in adulthood if you're coddling them so severely that you to pretend they are a cat so as to not upset them? Again this is a 13 year old, not a toddler. I think the idea that you're doing less harm here is extremely short-sighted.
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Neat fact, youre actually not supposed to challenge real actual delusions (which can be defined as fixed, and unshakeable held with 100% certainty despite all evidence to the contrary!) because actual delusions are, as in the definition, unshakeable and often just leads to conflict with the delusional person.
So, no, its actually often helpful to work within the realm of someone's delusion in order to help them rather than to challenge those delusions.
If this person isn't delusional, which they probably arent, then let a fucking kid be a little cringey, jesus christ.
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Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On July 11 2023 05:14 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 04:33 cLutZ wrote:On July 10 2023 15:51 Mikau wrote:On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
The fact that there exist confusing edge cases of these is a natural consequence of nature's foibles.
On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
None of those questions actually apply to trans people.
Why are you accepting one set of 'confusing edge cases' as being natural but dismiss the very real edge case being discussed here? Is it perhaps because you want to pretend that trans people aren't just "natural consequences of nature's foibles"? Because Trans people aren't even capable of telling me what they are asking for. Again, the mantra is "a woman is a person who identifies as a woman." They aren't even telling me what they are identifying as, because it is recursive. This is completely different than people who are genetically XX but have reproductive issues so severe they never generated an egg, don't undergo puberty, etc. In fact, I am totally fine excluding such severe cases from both the female and the woman classifications. I think that result is strictly superior to allowing some .01% thing break all of biological classifications for dimorphic species. We can call all individuals without gametes unsexed. Let me be honest with you. As a cis man, I also have a hard time explaining to you what it means to me to be a man. I've thought about it occasionally, and I still can't figure it out. For the most part the reason why I consider myself a man is that I'm just used to the idea. The only thing I know is that I'm more similar to men than to women. This doesn't tell me very much about my own manhood. I went to a grocery store once to buy some spirit, and the clerk (a young woman) asked me for my ID. I was 25 at the time. The legal purchasing age for spirits was 18. I thought it was absurd. How could I possibly not pass as a grown man, a full seven years after legally becoming one? Fortunately I was never asked for my ID since, but that experience stuck with me for a while. It did upset me in the moment, but more importantly it also made me question what it means to be a man. Maybe I had the wrong idea about it? Maybe it wasn't so much about appearance or biological fact, and more about what's inside? Granted, that was an anecdote about my age, not my gender. But age, I would argue, is easily as essential to our identity as gender. I can tell similar stories about how old people used to misgender me when I was a kid, thinking I was a girl because of my relatively feminine features. The elderly grew up in a simpler world, when distinctions between boys and girls were more apparent, as they were often enforced. We've been moving away from these distinctions. I think it's time to rethink our understanding of many things.
Yeah, I tried pondering this myself and failed. Perhaps it is more intuitive/emotive than it is grounded in anything particularly logically abstractable or able to be easily articulated.
P.S. perhaps you weren’t wrong as a child on the magic powers thing, you’ve an incredible patience and commitment to articulating your arguments, which by modern internet standards may as well be magic!
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On July 11 2023 07:03 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 05:22 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 04:37 BlackJack wrote:On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate? 8 year old? It says grade 8 which would be 13 year olds. Seems a little late in the game to be using the “they are just a child playing pretend” argument. At some point you should be able to handle being told you’re not actually a cat without the adults jumping in to shelter you by telling your peers they need to go to another school. I used to believe I have magic powers (hence my name). I stopped believing in magic roughly when I turned 20 or so. I don't think a 13 y/o girl believing she's a cat is of harm to anyone. I'm more worried about others harming her, as evidenced by the fact that she cried because she got ridiculed. So you think we should reinforce people's delusions so as to not upset them? Do you think you're setting someone up to succeed in adulthood if you're coddling them so severely that you to pretend they are a cat so as to not upset them? Again this is a 13 year old, not a toddler. I think the idea that you're doing less harm here is extremely short-sighted.
Taking a page out of your sarcasm playbook, yes we should pretend that Peter Pan is real and women get pregnant from a kiss.
I don't know what you want me to say. Kids don't need the truth forcefed to them. They'll figure things out for themselves eventually. Many adults are immature in countless ways and yet somehow the world hasn't fallen apart.
I don't think it matters if some people think they're bunnies that poop rainbows. I really don't. There are many adults who think ghosts are real. What tragic event is going to happen because of their belief? Oh no, people believe in ghosts. And in horoscopes. And in a great skydaddy. And in the afterlife.
Big deal. That's not what causes them to succeed or fail at leading good lives.
Terrible food in grocery stores, that's a much more likely culprit behind the failure of a society's individuals. Starvation due to destroyed crops caused by global warming. That's the dangerous stuff.
What matters is that kids have a good shot at living a good life and that they have the rights they deserve. We should treat them well and with kindness, and not force every single one of our views into their heads. Sometimes it doesn't matter if we're right or wrong. Sometimes what matters is kindness and nothing else. That's part of being an adult - learning to set priorities in life.
Lets maybe not blow the fantasies of little kids completely out of proportion.
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On July 11 2023 05:22 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 04:37 BlackJack wrote:On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate? 8 year old? It says grade 8 which would be 13 year olds. Seems a little late in the game to be using the “they are just a child playing pretend” argument. At some point you should be able to handle being told you’re not actually a cat without the adults jumping in to shelter you by telling your peers they need to go to another school. I used to believe I have magic powers (hence my name). I stopped believing in magic roughly when I turned 20 or so. I don't think a 13 y/o girl believing she's a cat is of harm to anyone. I'm more worried about others harming her, as evidenced by the fact that she cried because she got ridiculed.
I think this is a good example of the type of train of thought that shouldn't be engaged with. There are actual questions/issues to discuss, but here we are discussing a litterbox. Ignore the dumb stuff. Focus on substance. Don't be led down some silly path.
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On July 11 2023 07:30 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 07:03 BlackJack wrote:On July 11 2023 05:22 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 04:37 BlackJack wrote:On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate? 8 year old? It says grade 8 which would be 13 year olds. Seems a little late in the game to be using the “they are just a child playing pretend” argument. At some point you should be able to handle being told you’re not actually a cat without the adults jumping in to shelter you by telling your peers they need to go to another school. I used to believe I have magic powers (hence my name). I stopped believing in magic roughly when I turned 20 or so. I don't think a 13 y/o girl believing she's a cat is of harm to anyone. I'm more worried about others harming her, as evidenced by the fact that she cried because she got ridiculed. So you think we should reinforce people's delusions so as to not upset them? Do you think you're setting someone up to succeed in adulthood if you're coddling them so severely that you to pretend they are a cat so as to not upset them? Again this is a 13 year old, not a toddler. I think the idea that you're doing less harm here is extremely short-sighted. Taking a page out of your sarcasm playbook, yes we should pretend that Peter Pan is real and women get pregnant from a kiss. I don't know what you want me to say. Kids don't need the truth forcefed to them. They'll figure things out for themselves eventually. Many adults are immature in countless ways and yet somehow the world hasn't fallen apart. I don't think it matters if some people think they're bunnies that poop rainbows. I really don't. There are many adults who think ghosts are real. What tragic event is going to happen because of their belief? Oh no, people believe in ghosts. And in horoscopes. And in a great skydaddy. And in the afterlife. Big deal. That's not what causes them to succeed or fail at leading good lives. Terrible food in grocery stores, that's a much more likely culprit behind the failure of a society's individuals. Starvation due to destroyed crops caused by global warming. That's the dangerous stuff. What matters is that kids have a good shot at living a good life and that they have the rights they deserve. We should treat them well and with kindness, and not force every single one of our views into their heads. Sometimes it doesn't matter if we're right or wrong. Sometimes what matters is kindness and nothing else. That's part of being an adult - learning to set priorities in life. Lets maybe not blow the fantasies of little kids completely out of proportion.
Yes adolescents eventually figure it out for themselves because the vast majority of humans will reorient the adolescents to reality, even if it may make them cry. If the vast majority of humans actually placated the delusions of people pretending to be cats or bunnies that poop rainbows we might have a different outcome. I'd say we don't try that weird social experiment just out of the hopes that nobody will ever have to cry again.
Also nobody is saying to go around telling 5 year olds that Santa isn't real. Again, we are talking about a 13 year old. This is considered an early adult in many cultures, for example the age at which a Jew would be bar/bat mitzvah'd. Infantilizing teenagers by thinking they are too fragile to be told their fantasies aren't real is just weird at best and harmful at worst.
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On July 11 2023 07:52 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 07:30 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 07:03 BlackJack wrote:On July 11 2023 05:22 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 04:37 BlackJack wrote:On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate? 8 year old? It says grade 8 which would be 13 year olds. Seems a little late in the game to be using the “they are just a child playing pretend” argument. At some point you should be able to handle being told you’re not actually a cat without the adults jumping in to shelter you by telling your peers they need to go to another school. I used to believe I have magic powers (hence my name). I stopped believing in magic roughly when I turned 20 or so. I don't think a 13 y/o girl believing she's a cat is of harm to anyone. I'm more worried about others harming her, as evidenced by the fact that she cried because she got ridiculed. So you think we should reinforce people's delusions so as to not upset them? Do you think you're setting someone up to succeed in adulthood if you're coddling them so severely that you to pretend they are a cat so as to not upset them? Again this is a 13 year old, not a toddler. I think the idea that you're doing less harm here is extremely short-sighted. Taking a page out of your sarcasm playbook, yes we should pretend that Peter Pan is real and women get pregnant from a kiss. I don't know what you want me to say. Kids don't need the truth forcefed to them. They'll figure things out for themselves eventually. Many adults are immature in countless ways and yet somehow the world hasn't fallen apart. I don't think it matters if some people think they're bunnies that poop rainbows. I really don't. There are many adults who think ghosts are real. What tragic event is going to happen because of their belief? Oh no, people believe in ghosts. And in horoscopes. And in a great skydaddy. And in the afterlife. Big deal. That's not what causes them to succeed or fail at leading good lives. Terrible food in grocery stores, that's a much more likely culprit behind the failure of a society's individuals. Starvation due to destroyed crops caused by global warming. That's the dangerous stuff. What matters is that kids have a good shot at living a good life and that they have the rights they deserve. We should treat them well and with kindness, and not force every single one of our views into their heads. Sometimes it doesn't matter if we're right or wrong. Sometimes what matters is kindness and nothing else. That's part of being an adult - learning to set priorities in life. Lets maybe not blow the fantasies of little kids completely out of proportion. Yes adolescents eventually figure it out for themselves because the vast majority of humans will reorient the adolescents to reality, even if it may make them cry. If the vast majority of humans actually placated the delusions of people pretending to be cats or bunnies that poop rainbows we might have a different outcome. I'd say we don't try that weird social experiment just out of the hopes that nobody will ever have to cry again. Also nobody is saying to go around telling 5 year olds that Santa isn't real. Again, we are talking about a 13 year old. This is considered an early adult in many cultures, for example the age at which a Jew would be bar/bat mitzvah'd. Infantilizing teenagers by thinking they are too fragile to be told their fantasies aren't real is just weird at best and harmful at worst.
You are approaching this as a social/cultural issue when there is a wealth of research regarding delusions in children. This isn't something to approach philosophically. We understand how children process delusions, how to help them work past it, and what can make the situation worse. This is a matter of psychological medicine, not culture.
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Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On July 11 2023 08:12 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 07:52 BlackJack wrote:On July 11 2023 07:30 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 07:03 BlackJack wrote:On July 11 2023 05:22 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 04:37 BlackJack wrote:On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate? 8 year old? It says grade 8 which would be 13 year olds. Seems a little late in the game to be using the “they are just a child playing pretend” argument. At some point you should be able to handle being told you’re not actually a cat without the adults jumping in to shelter you by telling your peers they need to go to another school. I used to believe I have magic powers (hence my name). I stopped believing in magic roughly when I turned 20 or so. I don't think a 13 y/o girl believing she's a cat is of harm to anyone. I'm more worried about others harming her, as evidenced by the fact that she cried because she got ridiculed. So you think we should reinforce people's delusions so as to not upset them? Do you think you're setting someone up to succeed in adulthood if you're coddling them so severely that you to pretend they are a cat so as to not upset them? Again this is a 13 year old, not a toddler. I think the idea that you're doing less harm here is extremely short-sighted. Taking a page out of your sarcasm playbook, yes we should pretend that Peter Pan is real and women get pregnant from a kiss. I don't know what you want me to say. Kids don't need the truth forcefed to them. They'll figure things out for themselves eventually. Many adults are immature in countless ways and yet somehow the world hasn't fallen apart. I don't think it matters if some people think they're bunnies that poop rainbows. I really don't. There are many adults who think ghosts are real. What tragic event is going to happen because of their belief? Oh no, people believe in ghosts. And in horoscopes. And in a great skydaddy. And in the afterlife. Big deal. That's not what causes them to succeed or fail at leading good lives. Terrible food in grocery stores, that's a much more likely culprit behind the failure of a society's individuals. Starvation due to destroyed crops caused by global warming. That's the dangerous stuff. What matters is that kids have a good shot at living a good life and that they have the rights they deserve. We should treat them well and with kindness, and not force every single one of our views into their heads. Sometimes it doesn't matter if we're right or wrong. Sometimes what matters is kindness and nothing else. That's part of being an adult - learning to set priorities in life. Lets maybe not blow the fantasies of little kids completely out of proportion. Yes adolescents eventually figure it out for themselves because the vast majority of humans will reorient the adolescents to reality, even if it may make them cry. If the vast majority of humans actually placated the delusions of people pretending to be cats or bunnies that poop rainbows we might have a different outcome. I'd say we don't try that weird social experiment just out of the hopes that nobody will ever have to cry again. Also nobody is saying to go around telling 5 year olds that Santa isn't real. Again, we are talking about a 13 year old. This is considered an early adult in many cultures, for example the age at which a Jew would be bar/bat mitzvah'd. Infantilizing teenagers by thinking they are too fragile to be told their fantasies aren't real is just weird at best and harmful at worst. You are approaching this as a social/cultural issue when there is a wealth of research regarding delusions in children. This isn't something to approach philosophically. We understand how children process delusions, how to help them work past it, and what can make the situation worse. This is a matter of psychological medicine, not culture.
What does the literature you’ve consumed in this domain say, ballpark? Quite intrigued
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On July 11 2023 07:52 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2023 07:30 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 07:03 BlackJack wrote:On July 11 2023 05:22 Magic Powers wrote:On July 11 2023 04:37 BlackJack wrote:On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate? 8 year old? It says grade 8 which would be 13 year olds. Seems a little late in the game to be using the “they are just a child playing pretend” argument. At some point you should be able to handle being told you’re not actually a cat without the adults jumping in to shelter you by telling your peers they need to go to another school. I used to believe I have magic powers (hence my name). I stopped believing in magic roughly when I turned 20 or so. I don't think a 13 y/o girl believing she's a cat is of harm to anyone. I'm more worried about others harming her, as evidenced by the fact that she cried because she got ridiculed. So you think we should reinforce people's delusions so as to not upset them? Do you think you're setting someone up to succeed in adulthood if you're coddling them so severely that you to pretend they are a cat so as to not upset them? Again this is a 13 year old, not a toddler. I think the idea that you're doing less harm here is extremely short-sighted. Taking a page out of your sarcasm playbook, yes we should pretend that Peter Pan is real and women get pregnant from a kiss. I don't know what you want me to say. Kids don't need the truth forcefed to them. They'll figure things out for themselves eventually. Many adults are immature in countless ways and yet somehow the world hasn't fallen apart. I don't think it matters if some people think they're bunnies that poop rainbows. I really don't. There are many adults who think ghosts are real. What tragic event is going to happen because of their belief? Oh no, people believe in ghosts. And in horoscopes. And in a great skydaddy. And in the afterlife. Big deal. That's not what causes them to succeed or fail at leading good lives. Terrible food in grocery stores, that's a much more likely culprit behind the failure of a society's individuals. Starvation due to destroyed crops caused by global warming. That's the dangerous stuff. What matters is that kids have a good shot at living a good life and that they have the rights they deserve. We should treat them well and with kindness, and not force every single one of our views into their heads. Sometimes it doesn't matter if we're right or wrong. Sometimes what matters is kindness and nothing else. That's part of being an adult - learning to set priorities in life. Lets maybe not blow the fantasies of little kids completely out of proportion. Yes adolescents eventually figure it out for themselves because the vast majority of humans will reorient the adolescents to reality, even if it may make them cry. If the vast majority of humans actually placated the delusions of people pretending to be cats or bunnies that poop rainbows we might have a different outcome. I'd say we don't try that weird social experiment just out of the hopes that nobody will ever have to cry again. Also nobody is saying to go around telling 5 year olds that Santa isn't real. Again, we are talking about a 13 year old. This is considered an early adult in many cultures, for example the age at which a Jew would be bar/bat mitzvah'd. Infantilizing teenagers by thinking they are too fragile to be told their fantasies aren't real is just weird at best and harmful at worst.
I'm hoping to get your take on something, because I feel like this fringe case isn't nearly as important as more popular fantasies that permeate our culture.
If I remember correctly, you're an atheist like me. Do you think there might be some parallels between delusions of being a different species and delusions of religion? And which do you think is a bigger deal in society? Because I would hope that, as you put it, "the vast majority of humans will reorient the adolescents to reality, even if it may make them cry", yet a major counterexample of that is how we permit people to practice beliefs related to all sorts of imaginary and supernatural nonsense under the first amendment's freedom of religion. We rarely even correct it with formal education or casual conversation (as long as it doesn't directly hurt anyone else, supposedly). We just shrug and look the other way. In fact, rather than parents reorienting their kids, the parents are the ones pushing the fantasies in the first place!
People believe in gods and souls and heavens and hells and all sorts of fantasies that help them sleep at night and give their lives meaning and purpose. While I think the one-in-a-million kid who might suppress the fact that they're a human is a kid who needs help, I think there are way bigger fish to fry if we're talking about pushing back on believing bullshit.
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EPT
