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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US.
Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights?
How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia?
As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html
"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying."
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On July 10 2023 18:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
What about "I don't think trans women should be allowed in cis women's spaces"? Because that's the same thing with bathrooms. As I said, I have no personal opinion on that matter.
I am a biological man and I would be totally fine with both unisex bathroom with private stalls and trans-men in men's bathroom and even women. If I'll see a woman in men's room, I would be a bit surprised but otherwise totally ok with it.
But my experience is not indicative of what biological women might think about it.
If society decides that mental state (gender) is a better tool than physical traits (sex) to determine who goes to which bathroom - sure. I have no strong opinions on that matter.
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On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying."
I didn't see the link about Australia, and you're conflating trans people with cat people who may not even exist. That's why. Would you mind responding to the post I wrote as a reply to you, earlier? It was this:
On July 10 2023 11:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Razyda: "Cis women believes that women is adult human female"
This is a circular definition, because being female means being a woman, and vice-versa. Using "female" doesn't help explain anything here. The question is what makes someone female or a woman. You've essentially said that a woman is an adult human woman. Adult and Human are fine, but women are tautologically female. What is female/womanhood?
(Also, you don't speak for all cis women when claiming what they all believe "woman" means. I know many cis women who believe that trans women are also women.)
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I have a somewhat similar outlook to ZeroByte13 on this.
Women's bathroom:
-I don't feel qualified or authorized to make a decision about something that concerns women only
-It's a woman's bathroom, let the women decide
Men's bathroom:
-I don't mind trans people in
Unisex:
-I don't mind personally
-Again women should speak for themselves
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On July 10 2023 19:11 Silvanel wrote:
I have a somewhat similar outlook to ZeroByte13 on this.
Women's bathroom:
-I don't feel qualified or authorized to make a decision about something that concerns women only
-It's a woman's bathroom, let the women decide
Men's bathroom:
-I don't mind trans people in
Unisex:
-I don't mind personally
-Again women should speak for themselves
Just to clarify: Do you think we should hear from both trans women and cis women about that issue?
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I have a hard time taking someone's arguments seriously when they source their information predominantly from hard-right outlets with low to mixed credibility. DailyMail is among the biggest offenders, The Sun is not much better. I've read many of their articles. They're filled with out-of-context misrepresentations, baseless claims, strongly biased language, and sometimes even lies.
Razyda, if you want your arguments to be heard, you should look for higher quality sources. You can get a rough idea on the quality of a news outlet by looking it up at Media Bias/Fact Check. If they rate it as strongly politically biased and also low/mixed factuality, it's just strictly not a good source. They're feeding you misinformation and lies.
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On July 10 2023 19:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Just to clarify: Do you think we should hear from both trans women and cis women about that issue? Yes, obviously. But as the latter are ~80-100 times more numerous than the former, as far as I know
So if there was a popular vote and 52% of biological women vote "no trans-folks in our bathrooms", opinions of trans women wouldn't affect anything even if 100% of them vote "yes".
That is, if we think one biological woman's opinion is as important as one trans woman's opinion.
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On July 10 2023 19:35 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 19:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Just to clarify: Do you think we should hear from both trans women and cis women about that issue? Yes, obviously. But as the latter are ~80-100 times more numerous than the former, as far as I know So if there was a popular vote and 52% of biological women vote "no trans-folks in our bathrooms", opinions of trans women wouldn't affect anything even if 100% of them vote "yes". That is, if we think one biological woman's opinion is as important as one trans woman's opinion.
I was just clarifying because the sentence was "let the women decide", and some people don't include trans women in the "women" category. But it sounds like you do, since you said that we should include trans women in "letting the women decide".
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On July 10 2023 19:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." I didn't see the link about Australia, and you're conflating trans people with cat people who may not even exist. That's why. Would you mind responding to the post I wrote as a reply to you, earlier? It was this: Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 11:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Razyda: "Cis women believes that women is adult human female"
This is a circular definition, because being female means being a woman, and vice-versa. Using "female" doesn't help explain anything here. The question is what makes someone female or a woman. You've essentially said that a woman is an adult human woman. Adult and Human are fine, but women are tautologically female. What is female/womanhood?
(Also, you don't speak for all cis women when claiming what they all believe "woman" means. I know many cis women who believe that trans women are also women.)
I never said I speak for cis women - that was an example.
I thought cLutZ explained?
Female refers to biological sex - eg: cat can be a female, but cant be a women.
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On July 10 2023 20:06 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 19:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." I didn't see the link about Australia, and you're conflating trans people with cat people who may not even exist. That's why. Would you mind responding to the post I wrote as a reply to you, earlier? It was this: On July 10 2023 11:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Razyda: "Cis women believes that women is adult human female"
This is a circular definition, because being female means being a woman, and vice-versa. Using "female" doesn't help explain anything here. The question is what makes someone female or a woman. You've essentially said that a woman is an adult human woman. Adult and Human are fine, but women are tautologically female. What is female/womanhood?
(Also, you don't speak for all cis women when claiming what they all believe "woman" means. I know many cis women who believe that trans women are also women.) I never said I speak for cis women - that was an example. I thought cLutZ explained? Female refers to biological sex - eg: cat can be a female, but cant be a women.
He ended up in the same hole as others did: he picked a specific characteristic (producing eggs) that applies to most cis women and excludes some cis women, and then he hand-waved all the exceptions and counterexamples, and said his definition for women can allow for some non-females that don't meet his definition, meaning that he didn't actually create a useful definition. He made zero ground with the concept, and ended up with some non-female cis-women.
Swapping out "women" for "adult human females" doesn't address the fact that "female" isn't well-defined enough to even include all cis-women... just like how "women" isn't, either, when defining it as having specific traits like having a vagina, XX chromosomes, etc.
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On July 10 2023 20:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 20:06 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 19:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." I didn't see the link about Australia, and you're conflating trans people with cat people who may not even exist. That's why. Would you mind responding to the post I wrote as a reply to you, earlier? It was this: On July 10 2023 11:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Razyda: "Cis women believes that women is adult human female"
This is a circular definition, because being female means being a woman, and vice-versa. Using "female" doesn't help explain anything here. The question is what makes someone female or a woman. You've essentially said that a woman is an adult human woman. Adult and Human are fine, but women are tautologically female. What is female/womanhood?
(Also, you don't speak for all cis women when claiming what they all believe "woman" means. I know many cis women who believe that trans women are also women.) I never said I speak for cis women - that was an example. I thought cLutZ explained? Female refers to biological sex - eg: cat can be a female, but cant be a women. He ended up in the same hole as others did: he picked a specific characteristic (producing eggs) that applies to most cis women and excludes some cis women, and then he hand-waved all the exceptions and counterexamples, and said his definition for women can allow for some non-females that don't meet his definition, meaning that he didn't actually create a useful definition. He made zero ground with the concept. Swapping out "women" for "adult human females" doesn't address the fact that "female" isn't well-defined enough to even include all cis-women... just like how "women" isn't, either, when defining it as having specific traits like having a vagina, XX chromosomes, etc.
It actually is, unless you believe that trans woman biological sex is female?
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On July 10 2023 20:43 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 20:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 20:06 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 19:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." I didn't see the link about Australia, and you're conflating trans people with cat people who may not even exist. That's why. Would you mind responding to the post I wrote as a reply to you, earlier? It was this: On July 10 2023 11:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Razyda: "Cis women believes that women is adult human female"
This is a circular definition, because being female means being a woman, and vice-versa. Using "female" doesn't help explain anything here. The question is what makes someone female or a woman. You've essentially said that a woman is an adult human woman. Adult and Human are fine, but women are tautologically female. What is female/womanhood?
(Also, you don't speak for all cis women when claiming what they all believe "woman" means. I know many cis women who believe that trans women are also women.) I never said I speak for cis women - that was an example. I thought cLutZ explained? Female refers to biological sex - eg: cat can be a female, but cant be a women. He ended up in the same hole as others did: he picked a specific characteristic (producing eggs) that applies to most cis women and excludes some cis women, and then he hand-waved all the exceptions and counterexamples, and said his definition for women can allow for some non-females that don't meet his definition, meaning that he didn't actually create a useful definition. He made zero ground with the concept. Swapping out "women" for "adult human females" doesn't address the fact that "female" isn't well-defined enough to even include all cis-women... just like how "women" isn't, either, when defining it as having specific traits like having a vagina, XX chromosomes, etc. It actually is, unless you believe that trans woman biological sex is female?
I don't quite understand how your question follows from my comment. cLutZ said that non-female cis-women exist, not even referring to trans-women yet. Do you agree with him that some cis-women aren't female, since some cis-women can't produce eggs? (Technically, you've already agreed to this, since you're the one who used "female" and you agree with his definition of it, but I'm trying to help you see the issue with simply using "female" or specific traits to try and group all cis-women together while simultaneously excluding all trans-women. There end up being awkward counterexamples and exceptions, even within cis-women, before even looking at trans-women. Every single time "woman" is defined in this thread by people who don't consider trans-women to be women - even when you use "female" - the definition of "woman" ends up excluding some cis-women too. That should be enough to show that there isn't a perfect definition of "woman", meaning general descriptions will have to do... But it seems that acknowledging the flexibility of describing "women" is something that some people are resistant to, because that might allow trans-women to also fall into the not-perfectly-defined category of "woman". But, like, so what?)
Trying to answer your question: Depending on what you're including in "biological sex", some procedures, therapies, and surgeries can change a person's sex. Not chromosomes (to my knowledge), but reproductive organs, hormone levels, etc. So it could be the case that some trans-women have corresponding sex properties that have been mentioned by some people as personal criteria for being a woman (like having a vagina), not just in terms of gender.
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Norway28904 Posts
On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying."
You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate?
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On July 10 2023 19:35 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 19:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Just to clarify: Do you think we should hear from both trans women and cis women about that issue? Yes, obviously. But as the latter are ~80-100 times more numerous than the former, as far as I know So if there was a popular vote and 52% of biological women vote "no trans-folks in our bathrooms", opinions of trans women wouldn't affect anything even if 100% of them vote "yes". That is, if we think one biological woman's opinion is as important as one trans woman's opinion.
That is called the tyranny of the majority. It's like asking the Swiss if there should be a blanket ban on the construction of Mosques. Turns out that there aren't enough Muslims in Switzerland to stop the tyranny of the majority.
Referenda about minority issues, even if they are a minority of a minority, should not exist without doing something to ensure their voice is adequately heard. In this case, a referendum sounds like a bad solution for exactly that reason.
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On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate?
Not to mention, it wasn't about trans people, but about some strawman argument about a cat person.
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On July 11 2023 01:42 Acrofales wrote:
That is called the tyranny of the majority. I know what it's called, this is exactly what I meant.
And I'd guess we already know opinion of those 1%, more or less? I mean, most of them probably want to go to places designated to the gender they identify with, I'd assume?
Then the possible follow-up question is whether the opinion of this 1% is somehow more important than opinion of 99%, and how this dilemma should be solved. And it's this question that you'd get quite different answers from different people.
If 99% are against, and 1% is for, what should be done? What if it's 95 vs 5?.. 90 vs 10?.. 80 vs 20?
What is the way to make the most possible percentage of people comfortable/happy?
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Public opinion regarding matters of bigotry is never the way to go.
This image shows approval of interracial marriage in the US from 1958 to 2007. Interracial marriage was legalized in 1967. At the time it was legalized, roughly 70% of people were against interracial marriage.
The US did not cross the 50% threshold until around 1995'ish. The simple reality is that while democracy is great and cool in lots of ways, polls regarding matters of prejudice expose a very unsavory component of our society.
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On July 10 2023 15:51 Mikau wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
The fact that there exist confusing edge cases of these is a natural consequence of nature's foibles.
Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 14:01 cLutZ wrote:
None of those questions actually apply to trans people.
Why are you accepting one set of 'confusing edge cases' as being natural but dismiss the very real edge case being discussed here? Is it perhaps because you want to pretend that trans people aren't just "natural consequences of nature's foibles"?
Because Trans people aren't even capable of telling me what they are asking for. Again, the mantra is "a woman is a person who identifies as a woman." They aren't even telling me what they are identifying as, because it is recursive.
This is completely different than people who are genetically XX but have reproductive issues so severe they never generated an egg, don't undergo puberty, etc. In fact, I am totally fine excluding such severe cases from both the female and the woman classifications. I think that result is strictly superior to allowing some .01% thing break all of biological classifications for dimorphic species. We can call all individuals without gametes unsexed.
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On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate?
8 year old? It says grade 8 which would be 13 year olds. Seems a little late in the game to be using the “they are just a child playing pretend” argument. At some point you should be able to handle being told you’re not actually a cat without the adults jumping in to shelter you by telling your peers they need to go to another school.
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Norway28904 Posts
On July 11 2023 04:37 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2023 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 10 2023 18:54 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 18:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2023 18:19 Razyda wrote:On July 10 2023 17:09 Salazarz wrote:
Bottomline, why does it even matter if trans women are truly and genuinely 'female womens'? If they aren't 'real female womens' and are just pretending, who the fuck cares? What about a guy makebelieving that he is a woman offend your sensitivities so much? And please, don't tell me 'danger for real ladies in bathrooms' or 'muh fair sports', both of those are extreme fringe cases that are A) being looked at, B) far less damaging to the society as a whole than transphobia and anti-trans violence is.
If someone wants to roleplay being a woman, why can't you just let them be? You don't have to interact with them, you don't have to have sex with them; literally all they want from you is to not be hated and attacked. Is that too much to ask? You don't have to agree in everything those damn lefties believe in, you don't have to think it's right -- but why do you feel the need to aggressively oppose them?
Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or Allah, but you don't see me going around telling every Christian and every Muslim how damn idiotic their beliefs are and how they need to educate themselves on the realities of our world. Why can't we all at the very least extend the same courtesy towards the LGBTQ community? Thing is almost no one have issue with trans people, people have issue with: Books like "this book is gay" being in school libraries Lower ranked male athletes transitioning and suddenly winning in woman categories Teachers supporting secondary school girl claim that she is a cat and calling her classmates despicable for questioning that then telling them they should change school. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzyGuardian article with link to recording so judge for yourself: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22735585/fury-teacher-scolded-pupil-identify-cat/Teacher telling students “you can’t be Canadian. You don’t belong here.” for skipping school during pride events https://edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton-school-distances-itself-from-recording-of-teacher-lecturing-students-for-skipping-pride-themed-activitiesSexual offenders changing their gender and getting jailtime in woman prison: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11677219/Trans-rapist-female-prison-proves-legal-sacrificed-vulnerable-women-Julie-Bindel-says.html"Of the 230 inmates in the UK currently living under a different gender identity, 97 — some 42 per cent — are in jail for sex crimes" "Among these jailed inmates living under a different gender identity are 44 who have been convicted of rape and 14 who forced underage children into sexual activity." Aren't people allowed to have issue with situations like that? Does having issue with this make them transphobes? I would say that this things require discussion, otherwise they will remain unsolved. That cat student thing was in the UK, not the US, and it wasn't even a cat thing. Your article states : "All this, despite the school itself saying no children had identified “as a cat or any other animal”. The controversy began when a student secretly recorded the discussion involving year 8 pupils at Rye college in East Sussex. In the excerpt posted to TikTok, a pupil describes the idea of another pupil identifying as a cow or cat as “crazy” and extends her remarks to include biological sex and gender as binary."If you want to talk about that non-issue in the UK, post it in a UK thread please.
Edit: A lot of your issues/links aren't about the US. Why? Do you think no one in the US hear/read those stories? Do you think this stories do not impact their view on trans rights? How come you didnt rise similar complain when PG linked article from Australia? As for cat story I gave link to actual recording too. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12211691/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-Year-8-pupil-scolded-gender-proud-her.html"Some of the others in the class started laughing and the girl who thinks she’s a cat started crying." You really think '8 year old went too far with play pretend, some kids laughed at her, teachers wanted them not to bully her and her mom defends her' is a story that inspires an important debate? 8 year old? It says grade 8 which would be 13 year olds. Seems a little late in the game to be using the “they are just a child playing pretend” argument. At some point you should be able to handle being told you’re not actually a cat without the adults jumping in to shelter you by telling your peers they need to go to another school.
My bad. I don't think it becomes more significant of a story though, it's still 1 just 1 person being weird and some people arguably not responding perfectly to a type of weirdness they've prolly never encountered before.
This type of story is part of a greater 'omg nothing is factual anymore and people are being way too permissive of people holding crazy ideas' narrative, akin to the 'girl who claimed to be a cat demanded a litterbox' and in my opinion trying to establish narratives based on singular stories in countries with 70 or 330 million people is kinda silly - a principle I happily extend the other way too.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://imgur.com/ruPe138.jpg)
