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On November 12 2022 06:12 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2022 06:03 L_Master wrote:On November 12 2022 05:18 nojok wrote:
If a 40/50 pages essay was enough to make a strong case in favor of what you describe, it would be all over the place given the current political climate in our Western societies... I....kinda disagree. And to the extent that it is, you're aggressively branded (and usually discredited) as a racist. Think someone like Kirkegaard. Given the current culture climate, if you want good arguments you need to read those labeled as racist, because making good arguments gets you labeled that way. We don't distinguish between "hateful, prejudiced" racism and "Non hateful guy who believes the evidence favors HBD" racism. Moreover, you attract a tremendous amount of attention from dissident right conservatives that almost nobody wants a part of because....well.....who they are. Unreasonable, often schizoid/conspiratorial in thinking, malcontent, and highly irresponsible are very common there. Regular conservatives also recoil from that one, with almost the same intensity as those on the left side of the spectrum in the US. But what more people care about more is money and you instantly have a massive following to sell all the supplement garbage and other crap the Alex jones of the world do.
Fair point. And the less ethical of the world do so.
If there was a counterpoint, I'd probably say it's: "Yea, but, you don't have to court the dissident right and be broadly condemned as a racist to hoodwink people and sell products".
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On November 11 2022 22:15 Symplectos wrote:Show nested quote +Its one of the first things my History professor taught us. What you argue isn't as important as how you argue it. A helpful hint from a STEM supremacist: You should have listened to your history professor.
Fair response as I was being purposely antagonistic towards STEM supremacists who believe everything that isn't STEM is valued less (and/or worthless). As this is an informal internet forum, I still stand by my statement that STEM supremacists are typically the worst people who often cannot stay in their own lane due to how much they look down on non-STEM related topics.
Perhaps related to the above, one of the underappreciated reason for the perceived decline of San Francisco as a great city is the contemporary art scene (and everything surrounding that) built during the mid 20th century getting massacred by the influx of STEM majors who have no interest in maintaining any culture in the area.
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On November 12 2022 06:32 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2022 06:23 L_Master wrote:On November 12 2022 06:12 JimmiC wrote:On November 12 2022 06:03 L_Master wrote:On November 12 2022 05:18 nojok wrote:
If a 40/50 pages essay was enough to make a strong case in favor of what you describe, it would be all over the place given the current political climate in our Western societies... I....kinda disagree. And to the extent that it is, you're aggressively branded (and usually discredited) as a racist. Think someone like Kirkegaard. Given the current culture climate, if you want good arguments you need to read those labeled as racist, because making good arguments gets you labeled that way. We don't distinguish between "hateful, prejudiced" racism and "Non hateful guy who believes the evidence favors HBD" racism. Moreover, you attract a tremendous amount of attention from dissident right conservatives that almost nobody wants a part of because....well.....who they are. Unreasonable, often schizoid/conspiratorial in thinking, malcontent, and highly irresponsible are very common there. Regular conservatives also recoil from that one, with almost the same intensity as those on the left side of the spectrum in the US. But what more people care about more is money and you instantly have a massive following to sell all the supplement garbage and other crap the Alex jones of the world do. Fair point. And the less ethical of the world do so. If there was a counterpoint, I'd probably say it's: "Yea, but, you don't have to court the dissident right and be broadly condemned as a racist to hoodwink people and sell products". Sure you can also be really good looking, a pro athlete and so on. The point was if it was easy to make such an essay someone would have and would be incentivized to do so. There is a large niche of people who like to be called that in public opinion. Here they buy themselves "member of the fringe minority" bumper stickers. On TL it is very not cool to a considered a bigot, many other places on the internet and in the world, sadly it is very very cool.
I guess I'm lucky not have found too many of those places. Easy to find on the internet, but it doesn't take long to recognize the types of people there. At a minimum often massive frustration/anger, but usually other pathologies. I remember stumbling on an incel community once and going:
"Wtf. Like okay, you guys are right that looks are underestimated in important but chris almighty there is so much more to it than looks. And then some of them would post pictures and they'd be arguably attractive men just hating women and whining about how rigged it was"
And I just sat there thinking....uhhh.....do you know how many guys I know in great relationships with far less going for them than you?
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On November 12 2022 07:12 Small_Technician_19 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2022 22:15 Symplectos wrote:Its one of the first things my History professor taught us. What you argue isn't as important as how you argue it. A helpful hint from a STEM supremacist: You should have listened to your history professor. Fair response as I was being purposely antagonistic towards STEM supremacists who believe everything that isn't STEM is valued less (and/or worthless). As this is an informal internet forum, I still stand by my statement that STEM supremacists are typically the worst people. As an aside, one of the underappreciated reason for the perceived decline of San Francisco as a great city is the contemporary art scene (and everything surrounding that) built during the mid 20th century getting massacred by the influx of STEM majors who have no interest in maintaining any culture in the area.
Yea, it's a bit of an odd attitude to have. Science and tech are great, but, there is quite a bit more to life than just those things.
Reminds me of some of the naive spock style rationality people who think being perfectly rational = being non emotional in all situations.
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where does this discussion lead? what do we do with the information obtained at the end of it?
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On November 12 2022 02:51 Fleetfeet wrote:
My issue with L_Master's approach is that it comes across more as a philosophical thought experiment than a grounded discussion, but is presented as the latter not the former.
I.E. if we posit (race essentialism is correct), (capitalism and production are the primary goals of a society), (intellect, beauty and wealth are intrinsically linked via genetics) then what should we do about the underclass?
We're not in an academic setting, and MOST of us seem to reject a lot of these positions to begin with, but we're neither being given an opportunity to do so (Effectively met with "If you don't believe me, you're just being too emotional and haven't ascended yet) nor the grace of presenting them as posits and not statements of fact.
As I did actually say in this thread, historic racial categories don’t map to actual genetic differences in the way people assume they do.
Aside from a whole slew of issues I have with this rabbit hole, if we’re going to go into genetic determinism, you need to analyse actual genetics.
By way of a crude analogy two bits of software may be functionally identical but the source code may be wildly different.
I mean, do science or don’t.
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On November 12 2022 07:20 Artisreal wrote:
where does this discussion lead? what do we do with the information obtained at the end of it?
Policy.
Blank slate, no genetics, complete agency
^
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Genetic robots, zero agency
Where you are on that spectrum determines the types of policy you'd want to use. E.g.: Education works great a the top end, and has almost no value on the bottom end.
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On November 11 2022 20:45 Small_Technician_19 wrote:
STEM supremacists like Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Do you think NdGT is actually a STEM supremacist, or merely someone who's really passionate about his craft?
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On November 12 2022 09:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2022 20:45 Small_Technician_19 wrote:
STEM supremacists like Neil DeGrasse Tyson Do you think NdGT is actually a STEM supremacist, or merely someone who's really passionate about his craft?
NdGT is a smugness supremacist and passionate at getting public attention.
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On November 12 2022 10:58 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2022 09:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 11 2022 20:45 Small_Technician_19 wrote:
STEM supremacists like Neil DeGrasse Tyson Do you think NdGT is actually a STEM supremacist, or merely someone who's really passionate about his craft? NdGT is a smugness supremacist and passionate at getting public attention.
Yea, I think that's what makes me dislike him. He just comes across as way too much "gotcha" and "holy shit I'm hot stuff".
He does say some quality stuff, but his garbage:quality ratio is mediocre at best in my experience.
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On November 12 2022 09:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2022 20:45 Small_Technician_19 wrote:
STEM supremacists like Neil DeGrasse Tyson Do you think NdGT is actually a STEM supremacist, or merely someone who's really passionate about his craft?
His ego and the STEM supremacist crowd treating him like a superstar definitely pushed him towards STEM chauvanism, yes.
I can't be bothered to find the tweets or interviews, because there's so many of them, but he's been dismissive towards the creative arts and the value of philosophy while doing a whole load to promote STEM and expressing support for technocratic solutions to politics. A position that nearly, nearly always devalues knowledge of people who study the humanities. A lot of smarter people than me have written blog spots regarding these things, I'm sure they are out there.
He hasn't straight up said Liberal Art degrees are toilet paper but his opinions and attitude towards a lot of things are not that much different from your typical STEM supremacist.
If Neil deGrasse Tyson was simply passionate about his craft, that's fine. But at the peak of his popularity, he would consistently wade into topics from proper child rearing techniques to economics to history. And history is the most obvious topic where he's a huge dumb shit because not only is he nearly always egregious incorrect (even about the history of science and his field of astronomy) but he's also reductive as heck when, say, discussing why the Roman Empire collapsed.
In Cosmos, he states that "some historians" (read: basically none because he wouldn't state this claim if he asked a historian) claim lead was a contributing factor to the collapse of the Roman Empire. Firstly, there's a joke that the Western Roman Empire never actually collapsed for a whole load of good reasons. Secondly, the Eastern Roman Empire lasting another ~1000 years after the generally agreed upon end of the Western Roman Empire should have been a sign that the Western Roman Empire collapse way more complicated than lead plumbing being a contributing factor.
In a twist of fate, I believe the main propagator of the contemporary "lead pipe and sweet wine making breaking the brains of Romans" myth was a geochemist and not a proper historian.
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Norway28929 Posts
Arizona is called D, and Nevada has fewer than 1000 votes separating the two, with 94% counted. Last I checked it was a 10k R lead, so it's looking like democrats take that one too, meaning Georgia becomes less consequential.
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If Dems secure 50 without Georgia, that is absolutely insane and amazing.
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On November 12 2022 12:56 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Arizona is called D, and Nevada has fewer than 1000 votes separating the two, with 94% counted. Last I checked it was a 10k R lead, so it's looking like democrats take that one too, meaning Georgia becomes less consequential.
I'm not even sure if the Republicans can even hold onto the House between now and 2024 with margins this small. Who on earth do they elect as the Leader of the House when the House Freedom caucus just want to burn everything down to the ground?
They've already hitting Kevin McCarthy so he's probably not going to end up leader. Who else would want this shitshow of a job?
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On November 12 2022 12:56 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Arizona is called D, and Nevada has fewer than 1000 votes separating the two, with 94% counted. Last I checked it was a 10k R lead, so it's looking like democrats take that one too, meaning Georgia becomes less consequential.
It also means Manchin and Sinema need to examine their M.O. in the Senate if there's 51 votes.
That's a big deal though, I noticed that shrinking lead as well. 800 votes separating them now. Unbelievable.
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On November 12 2022 07:29 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2022 07:20 Artisreal wrote:
where does this discussion lead? what do we do with the information obtained at the end of it? Policy. Blank slate, no genetics, complete agency ^ I I I I I I I I I v Genetic robots, zero agency Where you are on that spectrum determines the types of policy you'd want to use. E.g.: Education works great a the top end, and has almost no value on the bottom end.
What kind of policy would you want to inform / influence?
No, sorry,. im rephrasing.
What policy area you think would benefit from your research?
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
What’s the holdup on these last few seats? I’ve only really been keeping track on TL and the BBC’s seat Infographics
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On November 13 2022 00:34 WombaT wrote:
What’s the holdup on these last few seats? I’ve only really been keeping track on TL and the BBC’s seat Infographics
There's a very convenient article here that explains why the West Coast counts at a snail's pace.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/10/politics/midterm-west-coast-ballot-count-what-matters/index.html
So the Senate's all but confirmed for a Democratic hold at minimum. I like Warnock's odds in the runoff because Walker got carried by Kemp and Walker's a fundamentally bad candidate. Should be enough for a 51-49 Democratic majority which gives them more of an advantage with reconciliation and judges.
The House is still surprisingly in play. Republicans will probably either take a majority by 3-5 seats or Democrats will by 1-2 seats. The possibility of a Democratic trifecta isn't over.
Sisolak conceded Nevada's governor's race, while Arizona's governor's race is still up in the air.
Most of the election-denying secretary of state candidates lost, which is good.
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Norway28929 Posts
I am very curious about Trump’s Tuesday announcement. I thought he was going to announce his candidacy but with these midterm results, and seemingly much of the right wing media turning on him (I read that anyway, haven't confirmed it myself), I dunno if that's still happening, or if that even was the plan. (I mean, if nothing else, if Trump has had a degree of savviness to him, it has been his ability to read and respond to the media.)
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EPT
