EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 3740
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Simberto
Germany12086 Posts
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Falling
Canada11607 Posts
Banning abortions is pro abortions, it does not stop them, it makes them more accessible This is clearly not true, if people are panicking about needing to travel to another state that has kept it legal and wanting their company to cover the travel costs. That sounds awful lot like less access. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On August 05 2022 23:11 Falling wrote: This is clearly not true, if people are panicking about needing to travel to another state that has kept it legal and wanting their company to cover the travel costs. That sounds awful lot like less access. Less access to safe abortions, but clothes hangers and shit are all still around. If they don’t have access to a clinic they’re going to be more likely to try to do it unsafely at home. | ||
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EnDeR_
Spain2958 Posts
On August 05 2022 23:02 Simberto wrote: Just to make sure that i am understood, i am absolutely of the opinion that people should have the ability to get an abortion (within some sensible limits that are not relevant right now). I understand and it is definitely coming across. What I reject is the framing that abortions are evil. They're not. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
That does a basic job of underscoring the issue for me as well: these things are so directly comparable because they're both healthcare. There's nothing evil about it. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Simberto
Germany12086 Posts
On August 05 2022 23:50 EnDeR_ wrote: I understand and it is definitely coming across. What I reject is the framing that abortions are evil. They're not. Ah, i get it now. I used "lesser of two evils" as a figure of speech, i did not literally mean that abortions are evil. I meant that you have a choice between two things which are not good. In this case, having an abortion or dealing with a child you are not ready for and ruining your life. Both are not good, but you choose the one which is less not good. | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9256 Posts
On August 06 2022 00:01 JimmiC wrote: You are talking about proper abortions, the drug is available at every street corner in places that have outlawed abortion. With the added bonus of no questions asked, no judgement and less chance of the people in your life you do not want to know finding out. I've posted it 3x times now and clearly you do not believe the research or do not read it. But go google abortion rates in places that ban abortion, it is not 0, it is higher than in countries with good systems of care. Which includes access to legal healthy abortions, contraception and sex education among others. Feel free to provide some actual evidence to what you say, I won't hold my breath. Did banning alcohol work? How about drugs, could people not get pot when it was illegal? just think about it critically if you are not willing to do osme basic research. This is an unintended great example of correlation does not imply causation. "The research" is basically a poverty map. You can't use the estimated abortion rate in Pakistan as a predictor of what will happen to the abortion rate for Texans after these laws. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28927 Posts
On August 06 2022 00:01 JimmiC wrote: You are talking about proper abortions, the drug is available at every street corner in places that have outlawed abortion. With the added bonus of no questions asked, no judgement and less chance of the people in your life you do not want to know finding out. I've posted it 3x times now and clearly you do not believe the research or do not read it. But go google abortion rates in places that ban abortion, it is not 0, it is higher than in countries with good systems of care. Which includes access to legal healthy abortions, contraception and sex education among others. Feel free to provide some actual evidence to what you say, I won't hold my breath. Did banning alcohol work? How about drugs, could people not get pot when it was illegal? just think about it critically if you are not willing to do osme basic research. Pot is definitely more accessible in the Netherlands than it is in Norway. Yes, you can get it both places. But something being banned and illegal does not make it more accessible. Why even fight for abortion rights if that was the case? Banning alcohol did not make alcohol disappear - but prohibition had an immediate effect of reducing alcohol consumption to about 30% of the rate it was before - and it then slowly clawed back to 60-70%, but the level never reached pre-prohibition levels until it was again made legal. (source) Pot use also slightly increased in states where they legalized it. It feels like you've seen statistics showing that places where abortion is outlawed don't experience lower abortion rates and concluded that this must mean that outlawing abortion has no effect. Can't it simply be that the same places that outlaw abortion also tend to skimp on pregnancy-reducing stuff like sex education and free+widely available contraceptives, and that banning abortion does not make enough of a difference to make up for that? | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5913 Posts
On August 06 2022 00:01 JimmiC wrote: You are talking about proper abortions, the drug is available at every street corner in places that have outlawed abortion. With the added bonus of no questions asked, no judgement and less chance of the people in your life you do not want to know finding out. I've posted it 3x times now and clearly you do not believe the research or do not read it. But go google abortion rates in places that ban abortion, it is not 0, it is higher than in countries with good systems of care. Which includes access to legal healthy abortions, contraception and sex education among others. Feel free to provide some actual evidence to what you say, I won't hold my breath. Did banning alcohol work? How about drugs, could people not get pot when it was illegal? just think about it critically if you are not willing to do osme basic research. You're telling him to provide evidence but you haven't provided any yourself. ;-) | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28927 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5913 Posts
I checked the last 10 pages and the only relevant link you posted was to the Kansas referendum. Am I missing something? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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EnDeR_
Spain2958 Posts
On August 06 2022 00:22 Simberto wrote: Ah, i get it now. I used "lesser of two evils" as a figure of speech, i did not literally mean that abortions are evil. I meant that you have a choice between two things which are not good. In this case, having an abortion or dealing with a child you are not ready for and ruining your life. Both are not good, but you choose the one which is less not good. I mean, that's just calling them evil by another name "not good". There is nothing inherently evil or "not good" about a medical operation which improves your standard of living if you have it. I simply think that the framing of abortions as a negative thing, rather than a life-improving operation is part of the problem. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Simberto
Germany12086 Posts
On August 06 2022 06:44 EnDeR_ wrote: I mean, that's just calling them evil by another name "not good". There is nothing inherently evil or "not good" about a medical operation which improves your standard of living if you have it. I simply think that the framing of abortions as a negative thing, rather than a life-improving operation is part of the problem. I would put a lot of medical procedures into the same category. Take chemotherapy, for example. Yes, it is good and necessary to not die off cancer. But chemotherapy still isn't a fun thing either. So it is good to get it, but definitively a "lesser of two evils" situations. | ||
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EnDeR_
Spain2958 Posts
On August 06 2022 06:49 JimmiC wrote: I do not think there is anything wrong with hoping to do away with many abortions. All of the ones that could have been prevented with contraceptives or education are worse than never being pregnant. There is risk with any procedure and while abortions are safer than pregnancy there is still risk to both future reproduction and worse. There are also emotional and hormonal things that go on with a mother that are best avoided. Less stigma would remove many of the emotional, it would not all. That's true for all medical operations. Of course no one likes to have one, you'd rather not get sick in the first place and prevention is better than having one. All of these things are true. Yet, no one calls having the appendix removed when it ruptures evil or 'not good', that sort of language tends to be reserved for abortions and I think that's because of the stigma attached to it. | ||
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justanothertownie
16344 Posts
On August 06 2022 16:23 EnDeR_ wrote: That's true for all medical operations. Of course no one likes to have one, you'd rather not get sick in the first place and prevention is better than having one. All of these things are true. Yet, no one calls having the appendix removed when it ruptures evil or 'not good', that sort of language tends to be reserved for abortions and I think that's because of the stigma attached to it. This is a very bad analogy. What are you supposed to do to prevent ruptures or sickness? While you can easily prevent pregnancies in most cases. | ||
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