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On August 04 2022 04:23 Mohdoo wrote:
The idea that ethics increase as decision making becomes less centralized does not have some kind of intrinsic justification. It is not supported. We have a wealth of history to point to times when this has not been the case. Slavery. And others.
Indeed, practically the entire arc of this country’s history can be understood as one long refutation of the idea that decentralized power is somehow essentially better than its centralized counterpart.
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"The buck stops here" is a drop of water in a frying pan as far as accountability in the US is concerned. Our government is all about diffusing responsibility so that nobody is ever really responsible for what comes out of the machine. Just shrugs. "It wasn't me".
I mean, listen to how Republicans have been talking since they reversed course on the veterans health care bill like a bunch of bitches. Like they weren't high-fiving over tanking it just a week ago.
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On August 04 2022 03:20 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2022 02:52 Velr wrote:
Many conservatives plain think abortion is murder. I think this is a ridiculous stance but if your totally convinced that this is the case, anything but a nation wide ban is not enough. Why? Bans do not make the practice go away, most data says it increases. If you wanted to reduce abortions you would have too implement policy that worked to reduce it, like education access to contraception and a whole host of other ones. It is all about getting to punish people, nothing to do with protecting lives. You are just going to have more fetuses aborted with the added bonus of more mother injured and killed.
None of your arguments hold any candle against someone that truely thinks abortion is murder. If someone truely believes this, circumstances don't matter (or only in very, very few very niche cases).
I agree with everything you wrote, but as long as you don't convince people that abortion isn't murder (or at least can agree on a deadline later than conception until a fetus counts as human) none of them work.
On the bright side, Kansas shows that plenty of republican/conservative voters don't actually believe this (but for some reason like the rethoric, I guess).
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On August 04 2022 18:02 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2022 03:20 JimmiC wrote:On August 04 2022 02:52 Velr wrote:
Many conservatives plain think abortion is murder. I think this is a ridiculous stance but if your totally convinced that this is the case, anything but a nation wide ban is not enough. Why? Bans do not make the practice go away, most data says it increases. If you wanted to reduce abortions you would have too implement policy that worked to reduce it, like education access to contraception and a whole host of other ones. It is all about getting to punish people, nothing to do with protecting lives. You are just going to have more fetuses aborted with the added bonus of more mother injured and killed. None of your arguments hold any candle against someone that truely thinks abortion is murder. If someone truely believes this, circumstances don't matter (or only in very, very few very niche cases). I agree with everything you wrote, but as long as you don't convince people that abortion isn't murder (or at least can agree on a deadline later than conception until a fetus counts as human) none of them work. On the bright side, Kansas shows that plenty of republican/conservative voters don't actually believe this (but for some reason like the rethoric, I guess).
Exactly. We have strict laws against murder, and no one would suggest that we should decriminalize murder and create counseling programs instead, on the premise that that will reduce murder rates more than jail or execution would. This is rooted in the belief that murder is so utterly antisocial that society needs to take an extreme stance against it, and anything less would be immoral.
If abortion is murder, then the fact that other social policies are more effective at reducing abortion than criminal consequences must be weighed against the social imperative to declare murder as absolutely wrong and unforgivable.
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On August 04 2022 18:48 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2022 18:02 Velr wrote:On August 04 2022 03:20 JimmiC wrote:On August 04 2022 02:52 Velr wrote:
Many conservatives plain think abortion is murder. I think this is a ridiculous stance but if your totally convinced that this is the case, anything but a nation wide ban is not enough. Why? Bans do not make the practice go away, most data says it increases. If you wanted to reduce abortions you would have too implement policy that worked to reduce it, like education access to contraception and a whole host of other ones. It is all about getting to punish people, nothing to do with protecting lives. You are just going to have more fetuses aborted with the added bonus of more mother injured and killed. None of your arguments hold any candle against someone that truely thinks abortion is murder. If someone truely believes this, circumstances don't matter (or only in very, very few very niche cases). I agree with everything you wrote, but as long as you don't convince people that abortion isn't murder (or at least can agree on a deadline later than conception until a fetus counts as human) none of them work. On the bright side, Kansas shows that plenty of republican/conservative voters don't actually believe this (but for some reason like the rethoric, I guess). Exactly. We have strict laws against murder, and no one would suggest that we should decriminalize murder and create counseling programs instead, on the premise that that will reduce murder rates more than jail or execution would. This is rooted in the belief that murder is so utterly antisocial that society needs to take an extreme stance against it, and anything less would be immoral. If abortion is murder, then the fact that other social policies are more effective at reducing abortion than criminal consequences must be weighed against the social imperative to declare murder as absolutely wrong and unforgivable.
Actually there are a LOT of people suggesting that tossing murderers in jail and throwing away the key is an awful way of dealing with them, and death sentence is even worse. They point toward Scandinavian rehabilitative approaches to criminal justice...
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Have you tried arguing this with a more classical "law & order" type of guy? Results don't matter to these people, punishment, or in more honest words revenge, does.
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Punishment, revenge, deterrence and feeling of "justice being served" is also a part of justice system. Let's not act like rehabilitation is the only thing that matters when it comes to it.
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Are You really saying that it's better to rehabilitate a murderer then deter another potential murderer from committing the deed?
Also, for whatever reason You seem to imply that court mandated sentence can serve only one function at the time, when in reality all systems I know strive to perform ALL the functions at the same time: punish, deter further crimes, protect the public, uphold the rule of law and rehabilitate (if possible) person back into society.
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You seem to argue against some mythical anti-abortion/pro law and order person that writes here. No such user has taken place in this exchange or statet such a thing.
Even the highly on rehabilitation focused criminal justice systems would argue that taking away/dimishing the freedom of a person is also punishment and that protecting society from future harm is a very important part of their system.
I'm pretty sure that, theoretically, a 24/7 personal psychiatrist/coach would help even more than locking people up and away from society if it would be only about rehabilitation.
You seem to be fighting for some utopian system that doesn't exist just to argue against some strawman at this point.
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The basic logic you need to stick to when talking to pro lifers is of they want to lower abortions that happen or no. I'd they say yes they are pro choice. If they say no they just want to punish women for being women.
We know banning abortions doesn't decrease those that happen they just make them more deadly. We know the path to lower abortions lies in sex education and birth control proliferation.
What they think where life begins is irrelevant to the discussion.
Preventing crime through punishment is wildly outdated and just silly. You stop murders by working on the economic situation of people. Rehabilitating criminals to stop them from getting further into the trap of criminal behaviors is what lowers murders not some justice fantasy that vastly disproportionate number of people of color end up being the ones punished.
If you charge someone with a felony what are they suppose to do legally for a career? Do you know how many industries are open to people with a felony charge?
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United States44449 Posts
On August 04 2022 18:02 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2022 03:20 JimmiC wrote:On August 04 2022 02:52 Velr wrote:
Many conservatives plain think abortion is murder. I think this is a ridiculous stance but if your totally convinced that this is the case, anything but a nation wide ban is not enough. Why? Bans do not make the practice go away, most data says it increases. If you wanted to reduce abortions you would have too implement policy that worked to reduce it, like education access to contraception and a whole host of other ones. It is all about getting to punish people, nothing to do with protecting lives. You are just going to have more fetuses aborted with the added bonus of more mother injured and killed. None of your arguments hold any candle against someone that truely thinks abortion is murder. If someone truely believes this, circumstances don't matter (or only in very, very few very niche cases). I agree with everything you wrote, but as long as you don't convince people that abortion isn't murder (or at least can agree on a deadline later than conception until a fetus counts as human) none of them work. On the bright side, Kansas shows that plenty of republican/conservative voters don't actually believe this (but for some reason like the rethoric, I guess).
People don’t genuinely believe fetuses are human lives. Not a one of them. They claim to in a performative way as part of cultural virtue signaling but if you held a baby and a freezer of embryos over a cliff and made them choose which you dropped you’re dropping the freezer, no matter how many embryos are in it.
They’re lying.
That’s why none of the “if you were genuinely pro-life you’d want better sex ed and after birth resources” arguments never get anywhere. They’re not genuinely pro life. Being pro life is a cultural statement that has been artificially created by a political movement as a way of signaling their membership of a group (or more importantly these days, their non membership of another group). They don’t need consistency because these things aren’t ideas that can be incompatible to them, they’re just words. They can be anti union and pro worker. Pro war and pro soldiers. Pro life and anti welfare. Pro capitalism and anti corporations. You can’t take them at their word, if you try you’ll go insane working it all out.
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On August 05 2022 00:43 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2022 18:02 Velr wrote:On August 04 2022 03:20 JimmiC wrote:On August 04 2022 02:52 Velr wrote:
Many conservatives plain think abortion is murder. I think this is a ridiculous stance but if your totally convinced that this is the case, anything but a nation wide ban is not enough. Why? Bans do not make the practice go away, most data says it increases. If you wanted to reduce abortions you would have too implement policy that worked to reduce it, like education access to contraception and a whole host of other ones. It is all about getting to punish people, nothing to do with protecting lives. You are just going to have more fetuses aborted with the added bonus of more mother injured and killed. None of your arguments hold any candle against someone that truely thinks abortion is murder. If someone truely believes this, circumstances don't matter (or only in very, very few very niche cases). I agree with everything you wrote, but as long as you don't convince people that abortion isn't murder (or at least can agree on a deadline later than conception until a fetus counts as human) none of them work. On the bright side, Kansas shows that plenty of republican/conservative voters don't actually believe this (but for some reason like the rethoric, I guess). People don’t genuinely believe fetuses are human lives. Not a one of them. They claim to in a performative way as part of cultural virtue signaling but if you held a baby and a freezer of embryos over a cliff and made them choose which you dropped you’re dropping the freezer, no matter how many embryos are in it. They’re lying. That’s why none of the “if you were genuinely pro-life you’d want better sex ed and after birth resources” arguments never get anywhere. They’re not genuinely pro life. Being pro life is a cultural statement that has been artificially created by a political movement as a way of signaling their membership of a group (or more importantly these days, their non membership of another group). They don’t need consistency because these things aren’t ideas that can be incompatible to them, they’re just words. They can be anti union and pro worker. Pro war and pro soldiers. Pro life and anti welfare. Pro capitalism and anti corporations. You can’t take them at their word, if you try you’ll go insane working it all out.
Uh, as someone who was once “pro-life” , Christian etc, it’s very much about fetuses are human life. It’s almost guaranteed in their minds. That fetus will be a baby and ending that kills the baby! So > murder!
It’s the biggest thought killer. They can’t get over that idea. And while yes, it’s pure rhetoric and artificial, it’s become real. Lie made flesh. Once I could see from a woman’s POV that a woman or girls life might and should hold more sway over the fetus, that’s when I started to change my view. But until then “pro lifers” really do believe a fetus is a baby. Miscarriages are only up to God or whatever mental gymnastics you want.
If 50 years ago church pastors and priests said “life begins at first breath as it says in the bible”, we likely wouldn’t be here now.
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On August 05 2022 00:43 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2022 18:02 Velr wrote:On August 04 2022 03:20 JimmiC wrote:On August 04 2022 02:52 Velr wrote:
Many conservatives plain think abortion is murder. I think this is a ridiculous stance but if your totally convinced that this is the case, anything but a nation wide ban is not enough. Why? Bans do not make the practice go away, most data says it increases. If you wanted to reduce abortions you would have too implement policy that worked to reduce it, like education access to contraception and a whole host of other ones. It is all about getting to punish people, nothing to do with protecting lives. You are just going to have more fetuses aborted with the added bonus of more mother injured and killed. None of your arguments hold any candle against someone that truely thinks abortion is murder. If someone truely believes this, circumstances don't matter (or only in very, very few very niche cases). I agree with everything you wrote, but as long as you don't convince people that abortion isn't murder (or at least can agree on a deadline later than conception until a fetus counts as human) none of them work. On the bright side, Kansas shows that plenty of republican/conservative voters don't actually believe this (but for some reason like the rethoric, I guess). People don’t genuinely believe fetuses are human lives. Not a one of them. They claim to in a performative way as part of cultural virtue signaling but if you held a baby and a freezer of embryos over a cliff and made them choose which you dropped you’re dropping the freezer, no matter how many embryos are in it. They’re lying. That’s why none of the “if you were genuinely pro-life you’d want better sex ed and after birth resources” arguments never get anywhere. They’re not genuinely pro life. Being pro life is a cultural statement that has been artificially created by a political movement as a way of signaling their membership of a group (or more importantly these days, their non membership of another group). They don’t need consistency because these things aren’t ideas that can be incompatible to them, they’re just words. They can be anti union and pro worker. Pro war and pro soldiers. Pro life and anti welfare. Pro capitalism and anti corporations. You can’t take them at their word, if you try you’ll go insane working it all out.
What? I think almost everyone agrees that a fetus is a human life at some point, which is why every country bans terminating a pregnancy at some point. Personally I never understood why everyone that is pro-life has to believe life begins at conception and everyone that is pro-choice has to believe it doesn't begin at conception. Personally I think life begins at conception but I'm still pro choice. I just think the right to bodily autonomy is more important than a young fetus's right to life. I don't care for getting bogged down in the "when does life begin" argument because it's irrelevant to my position but certainly the "life begins at conception" side has infinitely more rationality behind their stance than the "life begins once the fetus emerges from the vagina as if it were a magical portal into our world" side. Most people are somewhere in between the two.
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United States44449 Posts
On August 05 2022 01:44 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2022 00:43 KwarK wrote:On August 04 2022 18:02 Velr wrote:On August 04 2022 03:20 JimmiC wrote:On August 04 2022 02:52 Velr wrote:
Many conservatives plain think abortion is murder. I think this is a ridiculous stance but if your totally convinced that this is the case, anything but a nation wide ban is not enough. Why? Bans do not make the practice go away, most data says it increases. If you wanted to reduce abortions you would have too implement policy that worked to reduce it, like education access to contraception and a whole host of other ones. It is all about getting to punish people, nothing to do with protecting lives. You are just going to have more fetuses aborted with the added bonus of more mother injured and killed. None of your arguments hold any candle against someone that truely thinks abortion is murder. If someone truely believes this, circumstances don't matter (or only in very, very few very niche cases). I agree with everything you wrote, but as long as you don't convince people that abortion isn't murder (or at least can agree on a deadline later than conception until a fetus counts as human) none of them work. On the bright side, Kansas shows that plenty of republican/conservative voters don't actually believe this (but for some reason like the rethoric, I guess). People don’t genuinely believe fetuses are human lives. Not a one of them. They claim to in a performative way as part of cultural virtue signaling but if you held a baby and a freezer of embryos over a cliff and made them choose which you dropped you’re dropping the freezer, no matter how many embryos are in it. They’re lying. That’s why none of the “if you were genuinely pro-life you’d want better sex ed and after birth resources” arguments never get anywhere. They’re not genuinely pro life. Being pro life is a cultural statement that has been artificially created by a political movement as a way of signaling their membership of a group (or more importantly these days, their non membership of another group). They don’t need consistency because these things aren’t ideas that can be incompatible to them, they’re just words. They can be anti union and pro worker. Pro war and pro soldiers. Pro life and anti welfare. Pro capitalism and anti corporations. You can’t take them at their word, if you try you’ll go insane working it all out. What? I think almost everyone agrees that a fetus is a human life at some point, which is why every country bans terminating a pregnancy at some point. Personally I never understood why everyone that is pro-life has to believe life begins at conception and everyone that is pro-choice has to believe it doesn't begin at conception. Personally I think life begins at conception but I'm still pro choice. I just think the right to bodily autonomy is more important than a young fetus's right to life. I don't care for getting bogged down in the "when does life begin" argument because it's irrelevant to my position but certainly the "life begins at conception" side has infinitely more rationality behind their stance than the "life begins once the fetus emerges from the vagina as if it were a magical portal into our world" side. Most people are somewhere in between the two.
Obviously a woman in active labour isn’t the subject under discussion here and nobody thinks that’s the cutoff.
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EPT
