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On October 17 2021 12:43 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2021 12:11 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2021 11:51 Introvert wrote:On October 17 2021 11:37 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2021 10:58 Introvert wrote:On October 17 2021 10:51 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2021 10:36 Introvert wrote:
Are we doing that thing, vile thing btw, where we label people like Youngkin and DeSantis as anti-vaxxers who want people to die because they oppose vaccine mandates? This is just another one of those things certain people, very cynically, started to use in everyday conversation and it's absurd and dishonest. The only time someone opposes a mandate but not the vax itself is if they have the emotional development of a mousepad. “Don’t tell me what to do, even if it’s the right thing”, isn’t a sensitivity we should accommodate. It should be a point of shame for the person expressing it. we can debate the pros and cons of mandates and (contra you) I really do think it's possible to hold good faith, intellectually defensible, and intellectually consistent views on both sides of this. I would think the heavy emphasis on bodily autonomy the left normally prides itself on would at least cause a respect for, if not acceptance of, opposing arguments on this matter. I don’t think there is an intellectually robust argument against mandates that people agree is a good course of action without the mandate. I see it as an emotional failing when someone gets pissy about being told what to do. Someone ought to have more of a hearty self image to be able to endure that. If you commanded me to eat a gorgeous medium rare steak with a side of asparagus and mashed potatoes, I wouldn’t cross my arms and say “we’ll screw you buddy”, I’d pick up a fork and knife and get moving. Comparing abortion and vax mandates is low resolution, Twitter-level thinking. We can do better than that. The two are not the same. If they appear the same, the microscope you are using to examine them is insufficiently powerful. You can do better than that. I am having trouble understanding the italicized sentence. Not to have a conversation that belongs in the COVID thread, but I don't see the costs associated with the mandate as worth it when the vaccines are effective. I understand I am talking with someone who takes a very...straightforward view on most topics, but I think this might be a time to slow down and reconsider, espeically if the vaccines lose effectiveness with time, as appears to be the case. Even as a logistical and political matter no government is going to have the support or the means to mandate boosters from now until the end of time. What I mainly want to establish is an agreement that the term (and the logic behind) anti-vaccine standing and rhetoric and an anti-vaccine mandate stance are not really comparable, as I don't think they are. As for the last paragraph, I didn't even have abortion in mind actually. Though that's my bad, as abortion is the most likely topic of conversation for that phrase to appear. So from my perspective: The statistics around vaccination, and the resultant "pros" and "cons" table indicate someone should almost always get vaccinated. I don't think the religious exemption is legitimate but I do think medical should of course be considered and it should basically just be whatever is recommended by doctors. In your eyes, what is the cons list? What do we lose? however many tens or hundreds of thousands lose their jobs for one. That's probably the most immediate impact. I am again trying to keep it short here because I do think there is a logic to mandates, so that wasn't really what I wanted to go for. I just don't find it compelling. Show nested quote +On October 17 2021 12:20 Salazarz wrote:Even as a logistical and political matter no government is going to have the support or the means to mandate boosters from now until the end of time. How exactly do you envision things panning out without COVID vaccination and booster mandates? Let the 'muh bodily autonomy' crowd continue to get infected and infect others until we finally get an Omega variant that turns people into literal zombies or something else horrifying enough for folks to finally get the fuck on board? This is not a random scary flu strain; it's not going to go away once the season is over, and it's already established that lasting immunity -- whether from vaccination or from infection -- is not likely to ever be achieved. God knows I myself am not looking forward to getting jabbed every 6 months or whatever, as I had a pretty miserable time after my second shot -- but it's not as if we have any reasonable alternatives. The fact that COVID won't go away is one of the very reasons I don't think mandating vaccines will work, espeically when the early months of vaccine availability were advertised "get a shot, get back to normal." That should have been the message, but there has to be follow through. In fact your point about infecting others is another issue. If, as Biden said a few months ago, the unvaccinated are a danger the vaccinated (a stupid thing to say IMO) then the rationale for compulsory vaccination takes a huge blow. If they are good enough to keep almost everyone safe from severe illness and death then there is limited reason to mandate it for anyone who doesn't want it. And if that's true for only 65% of people, well then it also undercuts the logic of mandates. Get it yourself and get on with it. It's a similar thing with infinitely recurring mask mandates and partial lockdowns. The idea that people, especially Americans, are going to go for this now every six months at risk of their job seems hard to believe. 80% of American adults have at least one shot, are we really going to throw out an entire 1/5th? *** But I didn't really want to get into the weeds on this, but perhaps I presumed a little much. I wanted to clarify, anti-mandate is not anti-vax, and think that's obvious and self-evident with the all people who get vaccinated and vaccinate their kids who nevertheless don't want to force it on everyone else.
Get a shot, get back to normal would have worked if Delta variant didn't appear. Sucks that it did, but that's the reality we have to deal with now. Acting as if we were misled about this is just pants over head stupid. Claiming that 'COVID just won't go away no matter what' is also stupid. There is a clear path to COVID-free life, it's just that some people have seemingly decided that a needle to the arm and a couple days of headache is too high a price to pay for it.
Unvaccinated people absolutely do endanger everyone, vaccinated people included. That does not diminish the usefulness or importance of the vaccines in the slightest, and there's no contradictions involved. Even ignoring the possibility of further dangerous mutations, there's no vaccine that can give a 100% guarantee against a disease. The more potential spreaders are out and about, the more likely I will get infected too, no matter what my vaccination status is.
There is absolutely nothing sensible about 'not wanting to force the vaccine upon everyone else.' The odds of any significant vaccine-related complications are so laughably low they don't even warrant a discussion by non-specialists at all. Worrying about COVID vaccine side-effects is akin to basing your life choices and plans on the assumption that you'll win the lottery jackpot. It's just completely unreasonable.
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On October 17 2021 10:58 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2021 10:51 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2021 10:36 Introvert wrote:
Are we doing that thing, vile thing btw, where we label people like Youngkin and DeSantis as anti-vaxxers who want people to die because they oppose vaccine mandates? This is just another one of those things certain people, very cynically, started to use in everyday conversation and it's absurd and dishonest. The only time someone opposes a mandate but not the vax itself is if they have the emotional development of a mousepad. “Don’t tell me what to do, even if it’s the right thing”, isn’t a sensitivity we should accommodate. It should be a point of shame for the person expressing it. we can debate the pros and cons of mandates and (contra you) I really do think it's possible to hold good faith, intellectually defensible, and intellectually consistent views on both sides of this. I would think the heavy emphasis on bodily autonomy the left normally prides itself on would at least cause a respect for, if not acceptance of, opposing arguments on this matter. Your bodily autonomy ends when it becomes a threat to everyone around you.
This is not a new thing. The concept that your liberties ending where another's liberties begin is not a new concept.
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On October 17 2021 12:20 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +Even as a logistical and political matter no government is going to have the support or the means to mandate boosters from now until the end of time. How exactly do you envision things panning out without COVID vaccination and booster mandates? Let the 'muh bodily autonomy' crowd continue to get infected and infect others until we finally get an Omega variant that turns people into literal zombies or something else horrifying enough for folks to finally get the fuck on board? This is not a random scary flu strain; it's not going to go away once the season is over, and it's already established that lasting immunity -- whether from vaccination or from infection -- is not likely to ever be achieved. God knows I myself am not looking forward to getting jabbed every 6 months or whatever, as I had a pretty miserable time after my second shot -- but it's not as if we have any reasonable alternatives.
Since your okay with mandated vaccines for every 6 months as well, I wonder is there any point where you would draw the line? What if they found even 6 months wasn't effective enough to establish herd immunity, would you be okay with every 3 months? Would you just give the policy makers carte blanche to vaccinate you whenever they decide it's best?
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On October 17 2021 19:24 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2021 12:20 Salazarz wrote:Even as a logistical and political matter no government is going to have the support or the means to mandate boosters from now until the end of time. How exactly do you envision things panning out without COVID vaccination and booster mandates? Let the 'muh bodily autonomy' crowd continue to get infected and infect others until we finally get an Omega variant that turns people into literal zombies or something else horrifying enough for folks to finally get the fuck on board? This is not a random scary flu strain; it's not going to go away once the season is over, and it's already established that lasting immunity -- whether from vaccination or from infection -- is not likely to ever be achieved. God knows I myself am not looking forward to getting jabbed every 6 months or whatever, as I had a pretty miserable time after my second shot -- but it's not as if we have any reasonable alternatives. Since your okay with mandated vaccines for every 6 months as well, I wonder is there any point where you would draw the line? What if they found even 6 months wasn't effective enough to establish herd immunity, would you be okay with every 3 months? Would you just give the policy makers carte blanche to vaccinate you whenever they decide it's best?
I'm not interested in pointless 'what if' demagoguery. Given the data we have right now, vaccinations and booster shots are clearly the way to go to counteract COVID.
While you're at it, why don't you speak out against the policy maker cabal stifling drivers around the world with seat belts? Why not protest against the global offensive against the smokers' liberty to have a puff anywhere they like? Of all the stupid hills to die on, why pick this one?
Seriously, give it a fucking rest. If your urge to 'own the libs' or whatever it is you're trying to do here is so strong, there's always reddit.
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On October 17 2021 19:37 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2021 19:24 BlackJack wrote:On October 17 2021 12:20 Salazarz wrote:Even as a logistical and political matter no government is going to have the support or the means to mandate boosters from now until the end of time. How exactly do you envision things panning out without COVID vaccination and booster mandates? Let the 'muh bodily autonomy' crowd continue to get infected and infect others until we finally get an Omega variant that turns people into literal zombies or something else horrifying enough for folks to finally get the fuck on board? This is not a random scary flu strain; it's not going to go away once the season is over, and it's already established that lasting immunity -- whether from vaccination or from infection -- is not likely to ever be achieved. God knows I myself am not looking forward to getting jabbed every 6 months or whatever, as I had a pretty miserable time after my second shot -- but it's not as if we have any reasonable alternatives. Since your okay with mandated vaccines for every 6 months as well, I wonder is there any point where you would draw the line? What if they found even 6 months wasn't effective enough to establish herd immunity, would you be okay with every 3 months? Would you just give the policy makers carte blanche to vaccinate you whenever they decide it's best? I'm not interested in pointless 'what if' demagoguery. Given the data we have right now, vaccinations and booster shots are clearly the way to go to counteract COVID. While you're at it, why don't you speak out against the policy maker cabal stifling drivers around the world with seat belts? Why not protest against the global offensive against the smokers' liberty to have a puff anywhere they like? Of all the stupid hills to die on, why pick this one? Seriously, give it a fucking rest. If your urge to 'own the libs' or whatever it is you're trying to do here is so strong, there's always reddit.
I'd really really rather not live in a society where the government can tell me what I need to put into my body?
Those false equivalences you just threw down might have worked if we were talking about masks mandates but I've already said multiple times here that I don't care about mask mandates. Wearing a seatbelt is quite a bit different than taking an injection.
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On October 17 2021 20:04 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2021 19:37 Salazarz wrote:On October 17 2021 19:24 BlackJack wrote:On October 17 2021 12:20 Salazarz wrote:Even as a logistical and political matter no government is going to have the support or the means to mandate boosters from now until the end of time. How exactly do you envision things panning out without COVID vaccination and booster mandates? Let the 'muh bodily autonomy' crowd continue to get infected and infect others until we finally get an Omega variant that turns people into literal zombies or something else horrifying enough for folks to finally get the fuck on board? This is not a random scary flu strain; it's not going to go away once the season is over, and it's already established that lasting immunity -- whether from vaccination or from infection -- is not likely to ever be achieved. God knows I myself am not looking forward to getting jabbed every 6 months or whatever, as I had a pretty miserable time after my second shot -- but it's not as if we have any reasonable alternatives. Since your okay with mandated vaccines for every 6 months as well, I wonder is there any point where you would draw the line? What if they found even 6 months wasn't effective enough to establish herd immunity, would you be okay with every 3 months? Would you just give the policy makers carte blanche to vaccinate you whenever they decide it's best? I'm not interested in pointless 'what if' demagoguery. Given the data we have right now, vaccinations and booster shots are clearly the way to go to counteract COVID. While you're at it, why don't you speak out against the policy maker cabal stifling drivers around the world with seat belts? Why not protest against the global offensive against the smokers' liberty to have a puff anywhere they like? Of all the stupid hills to die on, why pick this one? Seriously, give it a fucking rest. If your urge to 'own the libs' or whatever it is you're trying to do here is so strong, there's always reddit. I'd really really rather not live in a society where the government can tell me what I need to put into my body? Those false equivalences you just threw down might have worked if we were talking about masks mandates but I've already said multiple times here that I don't care about mask mandates. Wearing a seatbelt is quite a bit different than taking an injection.
Yeah, and I'd really rather not live in a society where drooling morons are taking up my tax money for no other reason than having a chance to share a potentially deadly virus with me and my family because boohoo microchips in a syringe.
Besides, the government already tells you what you need to put into your body. There are mandatory vaccines for a whole bunch of things in most (if not all) countries in the world, it's simply idiotic and asinine to pretend that vaccine mandates are some unique freedom point of no return that we must protect at all costs.
The point is, you do indeed live in a society. If the society deems vaccinations necessary to preserve the safety of said society, then individuals, no matter how special they think they are, need to suck it up and take the shots. And it's fucking depressing that partisan and emotional bullshit of 'muh body freedom' and 'guvernor bad' has so much traction despite running entirely contrary to facts and reason.
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On October 17 2021 20:04 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2021 19:37 Salazarz wrote:On October 17 2021 19:24 BlackJack wrote:On October 17 2021 12:20 Salazarz wrote:Even as a logistical and political matter no government is going to have the support or the means to mandate boosters from now until the end of time. How exactly do you envision things panning out without COVID vaccination and booster mandates? Let the 'muh bodily autonomy' crowd continue to get infected and infect others until we finally get an Omega variant that turns people into literal zombies or something else horrifying enough for folks to finally get the fuck on board? This is not a random scary flu strain; it's not going to go away once the season is over, and it's already established that lasting immunity -- whether from vaccination or from infection -- is not likely to ever be achieved. God knows I myself am not looking forward to getting jabbed every 6 months or whatever, as I had a pretty miserable time after my second shot -- but it's not as if we have any reasonable alternatives. Since your okay with mandated vaccines for every 6 months as well, I wonder is there any point where you would draw the line? What if they found even 6 months wasn't effective enough to establish herd immunity, would you be okay with every 3 months? Would you just give the policy makers carte blanche to vaccinate you whenever they decide it's best? I'm not interested in pointless 'what if' demagoguery. Given the data we have right now, vaccinations and booster shots are clearly the way to go to counteract COVID. While you're at it, why don't you speak out against the policy maker cabal stifling drivers around the world with seat belts? Why not protest against the global offensive against the smokers' liberty to have a puff anywhere they like? Of all the stupid hills to die on, why pick this one? Seriously, give it a fucking rest. If your urge to 'own the libs' or whatever it is you're trying to do here is so strong, there's always reddit. I'd really really rather not live in a society where the government can tell me what I need to put into my body? Those false equivalences you just threw down might have worked if we were talking about masks mandates but I've already said multiple times here that I don't care about mask mandates. Wearing a seatbelt is quite a bit different than taking an injection. When the government starts mandating you put things in your body that the scientific community say are bad and that you shouldn't do it we can talk about that but since that is not remotely the case I hold that its a bullshit argument.
It reads like this arguments always exist in a complete vacuum. "The government shouldn't tell me to put stuff in me". In complete isolation it could be an argument that I can agree with. But then you add the situation "during a pandemic" and context radically changes the meaning.
We are in a pandemic, atleast 4.5 million people have died from this pandemic (the real number will be several times that , especially outside the first world).
And we have people fighting for their right to be a carrier and infect others.
Its complete insanity.
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On October 17 2021 20:48 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2021 20:04 BlackJack wrote:On October 17 2021 19:37 Salazarz wrote:On October 17 2021 19:24 BlackJack wrote:On October 17 2021 12:20 Salazarz wrote:Even as a logistical and political matter no government is going to have the support or the means to mandate boosters from now until the end of time. How exactly do you envision things panning out without COVID vaccination and booster mandates? Let the 'muh bodily autonomy' crowd continue to get infected and infect others until we finally get an Omega variant that turns people into literal zombies or something else horrifying enough for folks to finally get the fuck on board? This is not a random scary flu strain; it's not going to go away once the season is over, and it's already established that lasting immunity -- whether from vaccination or from infection -- is not likely to ever be achieved. God knows I myself am not looking forward to getting jabbed every 6 months or whatever, as I had a pretty miserable time after my second shot -- but it's not as if we have any reasonable alternatives. Since your okay with mandated vaccines for every 6 months as well, I wonder is there any point where you would draw the line? What if they found even 6 months wasn't effective enough to establish herd immunity, would you be okay with every 3 months? Would you just give the policy makers carte blanche to vaccinate you whenever they decide it's best? I'm not interested in pointless 'what if' demagoguery. Given the data we have right now, vaccinations and booster shots are clearly the way to go to counteract COVID. While you're at it, why don't you speak out against the policy maker cabal stifling drivers around the world with seat belts? Why not protest against the global offensive against the smokers' liberty to have a puff anywhere they like? Of all the stupid hills to die on, why pick this one? Seriously, give it a fucking rest. If your urge to 'own the libs' or whatever it is you're trying to do here is so strong, there's always reddit. I'd really really rather not live in a society where the government can tell me what I need to put into my body? Those false equivalences you just threw down might have worked if we were talking about masks mandates but I've already said multiple times here that I don't care about mask mandates. Wearing a seatbelt is quite a bit different than taking an injection. When the government starts mandating you put things in your body that the scientific community say are bad and that you shouldn't do it we can talk about that but since that is not remotely the case I hold that its a bullshit argument. It reads like this arguments always exist in a complete vacuum. "The government shouldn't tell me to put stuff in me". In complete isolation it could be an argument that I can agree with. But then you add the situation "during a pandemic" and context radically changes the meaning. We are in a pandemic, atleast 4.5 million people have died from this pandemic (the real number will be several times that , especially outside the first world). And we have people fighting for their right to be a carrier and infect others. Its complete insanity.
The weird thing here is that i think it should not be necessary. I still can not come to gripes with the fact that a large enough amount of people would rather not be protected against an ongoing pandemic so that it might be necessary to have it be mandatory.
This is something i cannot figure out.
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Norway28561 Posts
There are many countries that don't have mandatory vaccines, especially in Europe, where even MMR vaccines are more likely to be recommendations than mandatory. Not just that - but the countries in EU with the highest COVID vaccine rates tend to be countries that don't have mandatory vaccines. (top 5 in covid vaccination rates are all countries without mandatory vaccination programs, the bottom 5 in my graph - granted, I just kinda added european countries randomly, so I'm not claiming these are all of europe, are all countries with mandatory vaccination programs for children).
+ Show Spoiler +
Like, I'm not gonna claim that there's necessarily a relation between how much trust government shows its people (stating things as recommendations rather than making them mandatory) and how much a population trusts its government (which might manifest through taking recommended vaccines for covid). Even though that there is a relation is a personal hypothesis of mine, getting a clear answer to this would be the subject of a phd rather than a forum post, and there are clearly other factors at play, and worldwide, you can find many countries where children's vaccines are recommendations and where covid rates are very low.
Anyway, I think in general, low vaccination rates are an indictment of society in many ways - lacking education, lacking trust in authorities, lacking sense of community/communitarianism. (There are countries that are exceptions here.) But I don't think forcing people to vaccinate solves those underlying issues (in fact, I think it builds further distrust in authorities, and I think it contributes further to a segregation of society), and I think solving those underlying issues is crucially important. Not to say that I don't think there are valid arguments for mandatory vaccines - I understand those just fine. But I'm not convinced the valid arguments for making covid vaccines mandatory are more valid than the arguments against. Especially with the frequency we might require future booster shots, I'm very skeptical. (Imo, there's a big difference between mandatory vaccines for measles and polio for children, and a mandatory vaccine that might need yearly reinforcement.)
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Manchin is sabotaging Biden's BBB plan by demanding to cut what is "widely seen" as the "centerpiece" (it's still too little, too late) for mitigating global ecological catastrophe.
Manchin, who chairs the Senate Energy and Natural Resources committee, will not support the sweeping clean electricity program that is widely seen as the centerpiece of the bill’s climate plan.
The $150 billion program — officially known as the Clean Electricity Performance Program or CEPP — would reward energy suppliers who switch from fossil fuels like coal and natural gas to sustainable power sources like solar, wind, and nuclear power, which are already in use by about 40 percent of the industry, and fine those who do not.
Experts believe the program is the most effective way to slash US carbon emissions significantly enough to prevent the global temperature from rising by 1.5 degrees Celsius, a threshold which would have drastic consequences for the planet if exceeded.
www.vox.com
Pelosi cancelled the last vote and pushed the deadline to the end of the month. Gives her about 14 more days to sort this out on the House side and Schumer not much more than that (though Democrats have talked about pushing the BBB vote to next year or later).
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Forcing people to vaccinate isn't meant to solve the issue of people trusting random media/facebook bullshit over their governments; it's meant to solve the issue of people fucking dying, which, in my opinion, should be the priority during a global pandemic.
The discussion about the underlying whys can be had afterwards; it's incredibly naive to think that this is something that can be efficiently and effectively solved on a timeframe that is even remotely relevant to current events. I also think that countries with vaccines being recommended rather than mandated do it that way as a consequence of having a culture of greater trust in government / sense of public responsibility, rather than this trust in government and sense of responsibility stemming at least in part from the fact that vaccines are recommended rather than mandated. It's also worth pointing out that numerous EU countries which until now had vaccines for things like measles etc recommended are seriously considering making them a requirement given the recent antivaxx movements.
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Norway28561 Posts
But it seems to me like the consensus is that Covid isn't going anywhere, and that it's gonna be around in a couple decades, too. While I don't know if there's a scientific consensus on how frequent booster shots must be administered to maintain good protection, a ballpark estimate of 'one booster shot per year' doesn't seem too far-fetched. Myself, I'm inclined to think that while I can be on board with forced vaccines to eradicate smallpox, or even forced vaccines to protect children from polio, I'm not okay with forcing 100 million American adults to vaccinate - mostly for their own benefit - every year.
I'm on board with this being a 'damned if you don't, damned if you do' type of scenario, though, and I can understand people's frustration.
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There's no consensus on COVID 'not going anywhere.' It might not be possible to eliminate entirely, but it seems to be possible to control it to the point where it won't be a 'global phenomena' any more and rather limited to periodic localized outbreaks at most -- as long as we can get people to actually listen to the science.
What exactly is your issue with forcing 100 million American adults to vaccinate every year, anyway? We're looking at 10k+ reported COVID deaths daily (the real number is likely higher, but whatever). It is without a doubt the leading cause of death this year worldwide. How is it acceptable to just let it be?
There's absolutely no reason for COVID to be a political or ideological issue. It's a dangerous disease, that can be largely prevented with a vaccine that, for all intents and purposes, is about as harmless as medicine gets. The fact that we're even having this conversation is laughable. Like, people haven't fought this hard against actual crimes committed by their governments as they are fighting against measures that actually help them. It's utterly ridiculous.
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Norway28561 Posts
In short, I think autonomy is a really important principle for society and taking away autonomy needs extremely strong justification. I can find that justification when we are dealing with say, protecting children from irresponsible parents. I could also find that justification if a concentrated global vaccine effort would permanently eradicate COVID, but that seems highly unlikely. (Being vaccinated gives great protection from serious illness, but it does not seem to eliminate spread.)
I can't find that justification when it is mostly about protecting people from making mistakes that are overwhelmingly more likely to hurt themselves than to hurt others. Now - incentivizing vaccines in various ways(stuff like 'you can't travel if you're unvaccinated' or 'you can't attend this concert unvaccinated' are imo fine), having educational campaigns on how beneficial vaccinating is great, but there's a big difference between this and forcibly injecting people. Tobacco kills an estimated 8 million people worldwide every year. I'm very supportive of educational campaigns to make people understand the health risk it constitutes, I'm very supportive of strict age limits, very supportive of banning advertisement for tobacco, very supportive of adding a high tax to it, very supportive of banning smoking from certain areas. But I'm negative towards outright banning cigarettes. Alcohol is responsible for an estimated 3 million deaths worldwide every year, and in that case, it's also a lot more likely to negatively influence non-drinkers. Again, I'm positive towards everything I prescribed as valid anti-smoking policies just for alcohol. However, I'm negative towards banning alcohol.
(I got the 8 and 3 mill numbers from a quick google search.)
Anyway, if we project that COVID will kill 4 million people in 2022, how many of those deaths do you think are going to be people that are vaccinated? I'm going with a very low number. Focus more on making vaccines readily available to everyone that wants them than to force them upon people that don't, because they overwhelmingly give great protection to those who are vaccinated. Furthermore, for the US, we're talking what I assume is literally millions of people who believe the covid vaccine is some equivalent of demon-blood. I think there are going to be dire consequences if we force those people to vaccinate - to the point where anti-vaxxers would become the biggest domestic terrorist threat you guys have.
I'd be more supportive towards say, disconnecting unvaccinated patients from hospital care if someone else needs their spot, than I am towards forcing injections on people.
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United States42004 Posts
On October 17 2021 21:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:There are many countries that don't have mandatory vaccines, especially in Europe, where even MMR vaccines are more likely to be recommendations than mandatory. Not just that - but the countries in EU with the highest COVID vaccine rates tend to be countries that don't have mandatory vaccines. (top 5 in covid vaccination rates are all countries without mandatory vaccination programs, the bottom 5 in my graph - granted, I just kinda added european countries randomly, so I'm not claiming these are all of europe, are all countries with mandatory vaccination programs for children). + Show Spoiler +
The causation between high vaccination rates and no mandatory vaccination requirement is obvious. Mandatory vaccination programs are caused by low vaccination rates, they're a policy response to low uptake. You seem to imply the opposite, that mandatory vaccination programs cause low vaccination rates but that's absurd.
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Norway28561 Posts
I am talking about mandatory vaccination programs for children - that is what the second picture shows. It's not about mandatory vaccination programs for covid. The bottom picture is which countries in the world have mandatory vaccination of children. Then, I am noticing - and again, specifically in my post stating that there's not necessarily a relation between the two - that countries that have vaccination of children as a recommendation rather than something mandatory - seem to have somewhat higher levels of people adhering to the recommendation to get covid vaccine.
I am, then, hypothesizing that perhaps there is a relationship between how much trust the government shows in its population (manifested by giving recommendations rather than making it mandatory) and how much a population trusts its government (manifested by the population adhering to recommendations because they trust them), but without stating this as fact. It's totally fine if you think that's an unreasonable hypothesis, but to me, it makes intuitive sense. It's not really about 'covid', but about 'how can we build more trust between the public and institutions because this will be absolutely crucial going forward into the future'. This stuff goes both ways, anyway.
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I'd be totally for mandated vaccinations if I lived in a country where the government hadn't recently experimented on the local population without their consent or knowledge, in collusion with the industry that is now making the vaccines.
I'm vaccinated by the way, but that isn't the issue here.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/LiquidDrone/graphs/coronavirusdataexplorer.png)
![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/LiquidDrone/graphs/mandatorychildhoodvaccinatio.png)
