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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On October 18 2021 08:15 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2021 07:59 BlackJack wrote:On October 18 2021 06:45 LegalLord wrote:On October 18 2021 06:35 brian wrote:On October 18 2021 04:26 LegalLord wrote:On October 18 2021 03:45 brian wrote:
it seems the most obvious area to me, and the number of people another good sign that someone with a brain is out there considering it.
outside of schools, a job is where a person is going to interact with non-family members to facilitate spreading the virus.
whether 100 employees is the number or not, it also stands to reason that we don’t need to be pushing this on mom and pop shops for at least two reasons: undo burden on administration, and the likelihood of spread.
idk, seems like the extremely obvious approach. It's the easy approach, which is why they went with it. A stroke of a pen without any legislative input and it's mandated, and the costs of enforcement are externalized away from the government. No forethought necessary! Although, not without its problems. For one, it affects only about 100 million people - a mere 30% of the population when you exclude all those people who either don't work or work for "mom and pop" shops (which is a major portion of the workforce). And probably an overrepresented portion of the vaccinated versus the population at large given that large companies would have already either incentivized or mandated vaccines far more often than average (my employer certainly did). So affecting a portion of 30 percent of the population - well done! I also question whether work is really the prime vector of infection spreading as you seem to imply here. Leisure (bars, clubs, eating, travel) and personal social networks (family & friends) seem to have played a much more active role in doing so throughout the pandemic. That just seems to be more of a retroactive justification for a mandate already in place than anything else. sorry was your qualm with its reach into the number of people it vaccinated? i definitely didn’t read that from your first post. i’ll look forward to your sources on leisure activities being the driving factor. but work is where the majority of the people spend their waking hours. The qualm is that it's a poorly conceived idea, one of the reasons being that it causes as much trouble as it does while targeting the wrong population for mandatory vaccination. Other reasons being the many other items I mentioned - that it's buck-passing, that it isn't worth the cost, and several more I think you could parse by reading my last page or so of posts. I look forward to you providing the sources that work is the probable source of infections first! + Show Spoiler + It's not a poorly conceived idea because the idea isn't to get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. The idea is to get as many people vaccinated as possible with the least amount of blowback. Obviously having the military kick down doors with syringes ready is going to be the fastest way to vaccinate the most amount of people. But the best strategy is to do it incrementally so you don't anger too many people at the same time. I don't think it targeting only 100 million people means it is poorly conceived. I think it only targets 100 million by design. I would do things exactly the same way if it were me. It was almost certainly more about that it’s what could be passed by executive order and require minimal government direct cost than some form of well-planned strategy towards a gradual mandate for everyone.
It's clearly a bit of both because they could have just as easily made a mandate for every business above 10 employees instead of 100 and targeted many more people. But passing the buck/costs onto businesses sounds like more good things if you're in Biden's shoes, doesn't it? That just turns the idea from good to great.
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The problem with mandates is they're only needed when the population isn't willing to do something otherwise. If it only affected the individual, that's one thing, but because it's a communicable disease, it's incredibly important that you get the vaccinated population above a threshold so that it doesn't affect other people to a large degree.
In my province, one rural health region (Northern Health) normally has ~40 hospital beds (not ICU beds, hospital beds). They've added another 20 because of covid.
In the last month, they've flown over 60 ICU patients out of the region to hospitals in urban areas because they don't have the ICU capacity to handle the patients. They've cancelled elective and urgent surgeries because there's no bed capacity. ~75% of that is unvaccinated covid patients, but there's people who don't have covid that need ICU care that are being flown out as well because there's just no beds.
If you got into a car accident, or broke an arm playing sports, had an accident with a power tool etc, you might get severe consequences far beyond what you would normally see because there's nowhere to treat you. The government needs to step in if the population doesn't make the right decision by themselves
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On October 18 2021 07:59 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2021 06:45 LegalLord wrote:On October 18 2021 06:35 brian wrote:On October 18 2021 04:26 LegalLord wrote:On October 18 2021 03:45 brian wrote:
it seems the most obvious area to me, and the number of people another good sign that someone with a brain is out there considering it.
outside of schools, a job is where a person is going to interact with non-family members to facilitate spreading the virus.
whether 100 employees is the number or not, it also stands to reason that we don’t need to be pushing this on mom and pop shops for at least two reasons: undo burden on administration, and the likelihood of spread.
idk, seems like the extremely obvious approach. It's the easy approach, which is why they went with it. A stroke of a pen without any legislative input and it's mandated, and the costs of enforcement are externalized away from the government. No forethought necessary! Although, not without its problems. For one, it affects only about 100 million people - a mere 30% of the population when you exclude all those people who either don't work or work for "mom and pop" shops (which is a major portion of the workforce). And probably an overrepresented portion of the vaccinated versus the population at large given that large companies would have already either incentivized or mandated vaccines far more often than average (my employer certainly did). So affecting a portion of 30 percent of the population - well done! I also question whether work is really the prime vector of infection spreading as you seem to imply here. Leisure (bars, clubs, eating, travel) and personal social networks (family & friends) seem to have played a much more active role in doing so throughout the pandemic. That just seems to be more of a retroactive justification for a mandate already in place than anything else. sorry was your qualm with its reach into the number of people it vaccinated? i definitely didn’t read that from your first post. i’ll look forward to your sources on leisure activities being the driving factor. but work is where the majority of the people spend their waking hours. The qualm is that it's a poorly conceived idea, one of the reasons being that it causes as much trouble as it does while targeting the wrong population for mandatory vaccination. Other reasons being the many other items I mentioned - that it's buck-passing, that it isn't worth the cost, and several more I think you could parse by reading my last page or so of posts. I look forward to you providing the sources that work is the probable source of infections first! + Show Spoiler + It's not a poorly conceived idea because the idea isn't to get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. The idea is to get as many people vaccinated as possible with the least amount of blowback. Obviously having the military kick down doors with syringes ready is going to be the fastest way to vaccinate the most amount of people. But the best strategy is to do it incrementally so you don't anger too many people at the same time. I don't think it targeting only 100 million people means it is poorly conceived. I think it only targets 100 million by design. I would do things exactly the same way if it were me.
As a bit of trivia, here in Brazil we had a famous revolt in the early 20th century related to forced vaccination (and to my surprise, there's a short english wikipedia article on it). Sure, the forced vaccination was more of a straw that broke the camel's back thing, but it still a lesson on the importance of public conscientization as a means of achieving public health goals, instead of a crude application of state violence. It's also a great case how political misinformation and fake news can lead the public to reject vaccionation, and this was in early 1900s!
I happened upon a 2006 text on it (in portuguese though) with some great political cartoons from that period, from the funny to the depressing.
+ Show Spoiler +
On a sidenote, the english wiki mentions the return of forced vaccination some years later. I've never heard of this in history classes and I'm having great trouble sourcing this claim. I'd say take it with a grain of salt.
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On October 18 2021 09:23 JimmiC wrote:
I'm so confused why "conservatives" are mad about the probusiness, non-intrusive, make it kinda inconvenient to not be vaccinated "mandate". And instead want military going door to door? Its like the solution is too much what they want, but it was not their idea so they want a really bad one so they can complain.
But totally supportive of the government stepping in to tell businesses what they can require from their workers. All while calling their wildly well paid and extremely pro capitalist doctors "communists". Wild world.
They want something that they can point to not wanting people to get vaccinated so they don't have to feel embarrassed about being pro covid.
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It's honestly tedious talking to you at this point, BlackJack. Just the other day you were arguing how governments are not to be trusted and how state officials routinely lie and mislead the public to achieve their goals -- but when a state officials quits in support of a position you are arguing for, suddenly that's an argument in favor of your position? How much of a hypocrite can you be?
And if it is indeed true that extra boosters become progressively more dangerous, that's no argument against vaccine mandates at all -- that should be a goddamn wake up call for everyone to get organized and get vaccinated so that we can try and reduce spread as much as possible before boosters become necessary for everyone. I have no idea how you can conclude that it's better to just let COVID go round and round in circles forever if vaccines are only 'safe to use' for a year tops or something. Seriously, I'm not seeing it, at all.
Regarding the idea that we should just make being unvaccinated as much of a hassle and an inconvenience as possible similarly to how governments are trying to come up with ways to reduce smoking and alcoholism... I agree with that sentiment, and I agree that it's a better way to go than straight up forcing vaccinations in theory. I think that can be a valid approach in places with limited COVID spread, such as South Korea or something. Still, I'm not convinced it's a possibility for places with stronger anti-vaxx sentiments. I'm pretty sure that a straight up 'vaccine is mandatory for all' message would see less resistance than progressively increasing restrictions on what non-vaccinated people can or cannot do.
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On October 18 2021 09:23 JimmiC wrote:
I'm so confused why "conservatives" are mad about the probusiness, non-intrusive, make it kinda inconvenient to not be vaccinated "mandate". And instead want military going door to door? Its like the solution is too much what they want, but it was not their idea so they want a really bad one so they can complain.
But totally supportive of the government stepping in to tell businesses what they can require from their workers. All while calling their wildly well paid and extremely pro capitalist doctors "communists". Wild world.
Because they don't actually want a solution, they just want to shout and scream and generate as much outrage as possible.
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Canada11607 Posts
On October 18 2021 09:23 JimmiC wrote:
I'm so confused why "conservatives" are mad about the probusiness, non-intrusive, make it kinda inconvenient to not be vaccinated "mandate". And instead want military going door to door? Its like the solution is too much what they want, but it was not their idea so they want a really bad one so they can complain.
But totally supportive of the government stepping in to tell businesses what they can require from their workers. All while calling their wildly well paid and extremely pro capitalist doctors "communists". Wild world.
Is that directed at BlackJack? Because there is no way to read his comment as being pro-military bashing down the door. It was clearly used as an extreme pole of government intrusion ends-justify-the-means, vaccinate at all costs that should NOT be done.
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On October 18 2021 13:35 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2021 09:23 JimmiC wrote:
I'm so confused why "conservatives" are mad about the probusiness, non-intrusive, make it kinda inconvenient to not be vaccinated "mandate". And instead want military going door to door? Its like the solution is too much what they want, but it was not their idea so they want a really bad one so they can complain.
But totally supportive of the government stepping in to tell businesses what they can require from their workers. All while calling their wildly well paid and extremely pro capitalist doctors "communists". Wild world. Is that directed at BlackJack? Because there is no way to read his comment as being pro-military bashing down the door. It was clearly used as an extreme pole of government intrusion ends-justify-the-means, vaccinate at all costs that should NOT be done. I assumed he was talking about LegalLord.
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On October 18 2021 12:56 Salazarz wrote:
It's honestly tedious talking to you at this point, BlackJack. Just the other day you were arguing how governments are not to be trusted and how state officials routinely lie and mislead the public to achieve their goals -- but when a state officials quits in support of a position you are arguing for, suddenly that's an argument in favor of your position? How much of a hypocrite can you be?
I'm not sure this logic follows. If someone says you can't trust the NSA/CIA are they are a hypocrite if they talk about Edward Snowden because he worked for the CIA?
The funny thing is you think I'm here to "own the libs" (whatever that means, I never heard this term before people starting using it here a few weeks ago). Here's a fun fact for you, team liquid used to have a sister site for poker that's still online with only a handful of active users still posting. There's a COVID vaccine thread on that site too that I also post in. For whatever reason, the majority opinion of people there is that COVID is a scamdemic, the vaccines are harmful, etc. Almost all my posts in that thread are explaining how bad COVID is, why they should get vaccinated, why the vaccines are safe, why even young/healthy people can die of COVID etc.
Here's some typical posts I've made in that thread
On October 07 2021 22:09 BlackJack wrote:
Nothing is 100% safe but it's way better than getting COVID. As Daut said it's not a difficult problem. Just compare the people that are sick in hospitals that are a) unvaccinated with COVID, b) vaccinated with COVID, and c) sick with vaccine reactions. It's a) 95%, b) 5%, c) 0%. No matter how you crunch the numbers it's very easy to conclude the correct answer
On October 09 2021 12:08 BlackJack wrote:
Mate, 4+ million have died from COVID. How many do u think have died from the vaccine? Billions of vaccines have been give now, I think you would have heard something by now. I got my shot in December 2020 and I only had the people in the clinical trials as my evidence the vaccines are safe. You have a billion more guinea pigs than I did as evidence the vaccine is safe.
Do you know why I never make those kinds of posts here? Because there's literally nobody here to direct those posts to barring the occasional troll account with 1 post that pops up and gets --Nuked-- immediately. I'm the most ""anti-vaxx"" (lol) guy here and I'm confident that I've personally persuaded more people to get vaccinated than anyone else on this site.
I'm not here to "own the libs" any more than I am over there to "own the conservs" or whatever. If anything I'm trying to own the echo chambers that people that put themselves in. Over there people are in echo chambers that tell them COVID is a conspiracy and the vaccine is harmful. Over here it's an opposite echo chamber of all things COVID hysteria. It's unhealthy. It leads to people thinking we should ship the unvaccinated off to an island. It leads to people thinking we should rip children from their parents arms to vaccinate them from a disease that's killed less of them than the flu. It leads to people thinking the government should coerce us into getting boosters every 6 months. It leads to people thinking the government should start censoring the internet so people are only exposed to the truth.
I'd very much not like to live in a society where any of those things are a reality so I'm going to try to pop the bubbles that people are putting themselves in. Obviously my arguments are not going to make any difference and I ultimately have little control over what happens, but it makes me feel a little better regardless.
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On October 18 2021 19:52 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2021 12:56 Salazarz wrote:
It's honestly tedious talking to you at this point, BlackJack. Just the other day you were arguing how governments are not to be trusted and how state officials routinely lie and mislead the public to achieve their goals -- but when a state officials quits in support of a position you are arguing for, suddenly that's an argument in favor of your position? How much of a hypocrite can you be?
I'm not sure this logic follows. If someone says you can't trust the NSA/CIA are they are a hypocrite if they talk about Edward Snowden because he worked for the CIA? The funny thing is you think I'm here to "own the libs" (whatever that means, I never heard this term before people starting using it here a few weeks ago). Here's a fun fact for you, team liquid used to have a sister site for poker that's still online with only a handful of active users still posting. There's a COVID vaccine thread on that site too that I also post in. For whatever reason, the majority opinion of people there is that COVID is a scamdemic, the vaccines are harmful, etc. Almost all my posts in that thread are explaining how bad COVID is, why they should get vaccinated, why the vaccines are safe, why even young/healthy people can die of COVID etc. Here's some typical posts I've made in that thread Show nested quote +On October 07 2021 22:09 BlackJack wrote:
Nothing is 100% safe but it's way better than getting COVID. As Daut said it's not a difficult problem. Just compare the people that are sick in hospitals that are a) unvaccinated with COVID, b) vaccinated with COVID, and c) sick with vaccine reactions. It's a) 95%, b) 5%, c) 0%. No matter how you crunch the numbers it's very easy to conclude the correct answer Show nested quote +On October 09 2021 12:08 BlackJack wrote:
Mate, 4+ million have died from COVID. How many do u think have died from the vaccine? Billions of vaccines have been give now, I think you would have heard something by now. I got my shot in December 2020 and I only had the people in the clinical trials as my evidence the vaccines are safe. You have a billion more guinea pigs than I did as evidence the vaccine is safe. Do you know why I never make those kinds of posts here? Because there's literally nobody here to direct those posts to barring the occasional troll account with 1 post that pops up and gets --Nuked-- immediately. I'm the most ""anti-vaxx"" (lol) guy here and I'm confident that I've personally persuaded more people to get vaccinated than anyone else on this site. I'm not here to "own the libs" any more than I am over there to "own the conservs" or whatever. If anything I'm trying to own the echo chambers that people that put themselves in. Over there people are in echo chambers that tell them COVID is a conspiracy and the vaccine is harmful. Over here it's an opposite echo chamber of all things COVID hysteria. It's unhealthy. It leads to people thinking we should ship the unvaccinated off to an island. It leads to people thinking we should rip children from their parents arms to vaccinate them from a disease that's killed less of them than the flu. It leads to people thinking the government should coerce us into getting boosters every 6 months. It leads to people thinking the government should start censoring the internet so people are only exposed to the truth. I'd very much not like to live in a society where any of those things are a reality so I'm going to try to pop the bubbles that people are putting themselves in. Obviously my arguments are not going to make any difference and I ultimately have little control over what happens, but it makes me feel a little better regardless.
If you were the federal government right now and could dictate policy and could spend a smallish budget of say $100M to $1B, what would you do to increase vaccine uptake?
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On October 18 2021 20:37 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2021 19:52 BlackJack wrote:On October 18 2021 12:56 Salazarz wrote:
It's honestly tedious talking to you at this point, BlackJack. Just the other day you were arguing how governments are not to be trusted and how state officials routinely lie and mislead the public to achieve their goals -- but when a state officials quits in support of a position you are arguing for, suddenly that's an argument in favor of your position? How much of a hypocrite can you be?
I'm not sure this logic follows. If someone says you can't trust the NSA/CIA are they are a hypocrite if they talk about Edward Snowden because he worked for the CIA? The funny thing is you think I'm here to "own the libs" (whatever that means, I never heard this term before people starting using it here a few weeks ago). Here's a fun fact for you, team liquid used to have a sister site for poker that's still online with only a handful of active users still posting. There's a COVID vaccine thread on that site too that I also post in. For whatever reason, the majority opinion of people there is that COVID is a scamdemic, the vaccines are harmful, etc. Almost all my posts in that thread are explaining how bad COVID is, why they should get vaccinated, why the vaccines are safe, why even young/healthy people can die of COVID etc. Here's some typical posts I've made in that thread On October 07 2021 22:09 BlackJack wrote:
Nothing is 100% safe but it's way better than getting COVID. As Daut said it's not a difficult problem. Just compare the people that are sick in hospitals that are a) unvaccinated with COVID, b) vaccinated with COVID, and c) sick with vaccine reactions. It's a) 95%, b) 5%, c) 0%. No matter how you crunch the numbers it's very easy to conclude the correct answer On October 09 2021 12:08 BlackJack wrote:
Mate, 4+ million have died from COVID. How many do u think have died from the vaccine? Billions of vaccines have been give now, I think you would have heard something by now. I got my shot in December 2020 and I only had the people in the clinical trials as my evidence the vaccines are safe. You have a billion more guinea pigs than I did as evidence the vaccine is safe. Do you know why I never make those kinds of posts here? Because there's literally nobody here to direct those posts to barring the occasional troll account with 1 post that pops up and gets --Nuked-- immediately. I'm the most ""anti-vaxx"" (lol) guy here and I'm confident that I've personally persuaded more people to get vaccinated than anyone else on this site. I'm not here to "own the libs" any more than I am over there to "own the conservs" or whatever. If anything I'm trying to own the echo chambers that people that put themselves in. Over there people are in echo chambers that tell them COVID is a conspiracy and the vaccine is harmful. Over here it's an opposite echo chamber of all things COVID hysteria. It's unhealthy. It leads to people thinking we should ship the unvaccinated off to an island. It leads to people thinking we should rip children from their parents arms to vaccinate them from a disease that's killed less of them than the flu. It leads to people thinking the government should coerce us into getting boosters every 6 months. It leads to people thinking the government should start censoring the internet so people are only exposed to the truth. I'd very much not like to live in a society where any of those things are a reality so I'm going to try to pop the bubbles that people are putting themselves in. Obviously my arguments are not going to make any difference and I ultimately have little control over what happens, but it makes me feel a little better regardless. If you were the federal government right now and could dictate policy and could spend a smallish budget of say $100M to $1B, what would you do to increase vaccine uptake?
Perhaps some kind of outreach targeted at the black/hispanic communities. A couple months ago I made an observation that black/brown people were overly represented in the people that were getting critically ill or dying of COVID that weren't severely fraily/elderly. Among the severely frail/elderly race didn't seem to matter, but as you look at younger and younger people, black and brown people seem to be more and more overrepresented. So naturally I wanted to know if my observation was true so I went to the CDC website to see if they have statistics not just on race but particularly on race + age and I found this graph:
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/PnTjplf.png)
As you can see, at 85+ years of age it's pretty even in terms of deaths among races but the younger you get the more blacks/hispanics are overrepresented and whites becomes much more underrepresented. I'm sure there's a myriad of reasons this gap exists, socioeconomic, access to healthcare, comorbidities, etc., but increased vaccinations should help close that gap. I also think that on average a black/brown person is more likely to just be afraid/skeptical of the vaccines due to past injustices and would be more receptive to education and less likely to dig their heels in and resist. So I think bigger gains could be made there.
My answer would have been to target senior citizens but CDC data says 95.8% of people aged >65 have received at least one dose so I think they are doing well enough.
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Canada11607 Posts
On October 18 2021 18:02 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2021 13:35 Falling wrote:On October 18 2021 09:23 JimmiC wrote:
I'm so confused why "conservatives" are mad about the probusiness, non-intrusive, make it kinda inconvenient to not be vaccinated "mandate". And instead want military going door to door? Its like the solution is too much what they want, but it was not their idea so they want a really bad one so they can complain.
But totally supportive of the government stepping in to tell businesses what they can require from their workers. All while calling their wildly well paid and extremely pro capitalist doctors "communists". Wild world. Is that directed at BlackJack? Because there is no way to read his comment as being pro-military bashing down the door. It was clearly used as an extreme pole of government intrusion ends-justify-the-means, vaccinate at all costs that should NOT be done. I assumed he was talking about LegalLord.
I could be wrong, but I don't think that was LegalLord's point either, given that at the beginning he stated he was against the mandate. Isn't it more an argument that going door to door can be justified under the same logic as gleefully taking people's jobs?(The latter of which is starting to happen in Canada to a much larger degree.)
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On October 18 2021 19:52 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2021 12:56 Salazarz wrote:
It's honestly tedious talking to you at this point, BlackJack. Just the other day you were arguing how governments are not to be trusted and how state officials routinely lie and mislead the public to achieve their goals -- but when a state officials quits in support of a position you are arguing for, suddenly that's an argument in favor of your position? How much of a hypocrite can you be?
I'm not sure this logic follows. If someone says you can't trust the NSA/CIA are they are a hypocrite if they talk about Edward Snowden because he worked for the CIA? The funny thing is you think I'm here to "own the libs" (whatever that means, I never heard this term before people starting using it here a few weeks ago). Here's a fun fact for you, team liquid used to have a sister site for poker that's still online with only a handful of active users still posting. There's a COVID vaccine thread on that site too that I also post in. For whatever reason, the majority opinion of people there is that COVID is a scamdemic, the vaccines are harmful, etc. Almost all my posts in that thread are explaining how bad COVID is, why they should get vaccinated, why the vaccines are safe, why even young/healthy people can die of COVID etc. Here's some typical posts I've made in that thread Show nested quote +On October 07 2021 22:09 BlackJack wrote:
Nothing is 100% safe but it's way better than getting COVID. As Daut said it's not a difficult problem. Just compare the people that are sick in hospitals that are a) unvaccinated with COVID, b) vaccinated with COVID, and c) sick with vaccine reactions. It's a) 95%, b) 5%, c) 0%. No matter how you crunch the numbers it's very easy to conclude the correct answer Show nested quote +On October 09 2021 12:08 BlackJack wrote:
Mate, 4+ million have died from COVID. How many do u think have died from the vaccine? Billions of vaccines have been give now, I think you would have heard something by now. I got my shot in December 2020 and I only had the people in the clinical trials as my evidence the vaccines are safe. You have a billion more guinea pigs than I did as evidence the vaccine is safe. Do you know why I never make those kinds of posts here? Because there's literally nobody here to direct those posts to barring the occasional troll account with 1 post that pops up and gets --Nuked-- immediately. I'm the most ""anti-vaxx"" (lol) guy here and I'm confident that I've personally persuaded more people to get vaccinated than anyone else on this site. I'm not here to "own the libs" any more than I am over there to "own the conservs" or whatever. If anything I'm trying to own the echo chambers that people that put themselves in. Over there people are in echo chambers that tell them COVID is a conspiracy and the vaccine is harmful. Over here it's an opposite echo chamber of all things COVID hysteria. It's unhealthy. It leads to people thinking we should ship the unvaccinated off to an island. It leads to people thinking we should rip children from their parents arms to vaccinate them from a disease that's killed less of them than the flu. It leads to people thinking the government should coerce us into getting boosters every 6 months. It leads to people thinking the government should start censoring the internet so people are only exposed to the truth. I'd very much not like to live in a society where any of those things are a reality so I'm going to try to pop the bubbles that people are putting themselves in. Obviously my arguments are not going to make any difference and I ultimately have little control over what happens, but it makes me feel a little better regardless.
Two guys quitting over what seems to be bureaucratic disagreements -- certainly there weren't any bombshell revelations made about boosters, vaccination plans, or anything of the sort -- aren't exactly comparable to the shit Edward Snowden brought out.
Your 'fun fact' isn't particularly surprising, by the way. I figured you just really like to argue, and really dislike to agree or admit you might have been wrong on any kind of topic. You're not a crusader for truth, you're a very sad Don Quixote looking for the next strawman windmill to take on.
I mean, you're still on the whole 'killed less people than the flu' bullshit, meanwhile COVID is the leading cause of death worldwide this year, despite the lockdowns and vaccinations. The problem with your posts isn't that you're antivax, it's that you're anti-truth. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing, and I don't even know why I've wasted as many words on you as I have so far.
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On October 19 2021 07:27 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2021 20:37 EnDeR_ wrote:On October 18 2021 19:52 BlackJack wrote:On October 18 2021 12:56 Salazarz wrote:
It's honestly tedious talking to you at this point, BlackJack. Just the other day you were arguing how governments are not to be trusted and how state officials routinely lie and mislead the public to achieve their goals -- but when a state officials quits in support of a position you are arguing for, suddenly that's an argument in favor of your position? How much of a hypocrite can you be?
I'm not sure this logic follows. If someone says you can't trust the NSA/CIA are they are a hypocrite if they talk about Edward Snowden because he worked for the CIA? The funny thing is you think I'm here to "own the libs" (whatever that means, I never heard this term before people starting using it here a few weeks ago). Here's a fun fact for you, team liquid used to have a sister site for poker that's still online with only a handful of active users still posting. There's a COVID vaccine thread on that site too that I also post in. For whatever reason, the majority opinion of people there is that COVID is a scamdemic, the vaccines are harmful, etc. Almost all my posts in that thread are explaining how bad COVID is, why they should get vaccinated, why the vaccines are safe, why even young/healthy people can die of COVID etc. Here's some typical posts I've made in that thread On October 07 2021 22:09 BlackJack wrote:
Nothing is 100% safe but it's way better than getting COVID. As Daut said it's not a difficult problem. Just compare the people that are sick in hospitals that are a) unvaccinated with COVID, b) vaccinated with COVID, and c) sick with vaccine reactions. It's a) 95%, b) 5%, c) 0%. No matter how you crunch the numbers it's very easy to conclude the correct answer On October 09 2021 12:08 BlackJack wrote:
Mate, 4+ million have died from COVID. How many do u think have died from the vaccine? Billions of vaccines have been give now, I think you would have heard something by now. I got my shot in December 2020 and I only had the people in the clinical trials as my evidence the vaccines are safe. You have a billion more guinea pigs than I did as evidence the vaccine is safe. Do you know why I never make those kinds of posts here? Because there's literally nobody here to direct those posts to barring the occasional troll account with 1 post that pops up and gets --Nuked-- immediately. I'm the most ""anti-vaxx"" (lol) guy here and I'm confident that I've personally persuaded more people to get vaccinated than anyone else on this site. I'm not here to "own the libs" any more than I am over there to "own the conservs" or whatever. If anything I'm trying to own the echo chambers that people that put themselves in. Over there people are in echo chambers that tell them COVID is a conspiracy and the vaccine is harmful. Over here it's an opposite echo chamber of all things COVID hysteria. It's unhealthy. It leads to people thinking we should ship the unvaccinated off to an island. It leads to people thinking we should rip children from their parents arms to vaccinate them from a disease that's killed less of them than the flu. It leads to people thinking the government should coerce us into getting boosters every 6 months. It leads to people thinking the government should start censoring the internet so people are only exposed to the truth. I'd very much not like to live in a society where any of those things are a reality so I'm going to try to pop the bubbles that people are putting themselves in. Obviously my arguments are not going to make any difference and I ultimately have little control over what happens, but it makes me feel a little better regardless. If you were the federal government right now and could dictate policy and could spend a smallish budget of say $100M to $1B, what would you do to increase vaccine uptake? Perhaps some kind of outreach targeted at the black/hispanic communities. A couple months ago I made an observation that black/brown people were overly represented in the people that were getting critically ill or dying of COVID that weren't severely fraily/elderly. Among the severely frail/elderly race didn't seem to matter, but as you look at younger and younger people, black and brown people seem to be more and more overrepresented. So naturally I wanted to know if my observation was true so I went to the CDC website to see if they have statistics not just on race but particularly on race + age and I found this graph: As you can see, at 85+ years of age it's pretty even in terms of deaths among races but the younger you get the more blacks/hispanics are overrepresented and whites becomes much more underrepresented. I'm sure there's a myriad of reasons this gap exists, socioeconomic, access to healthcare, comorbidities, etc., but increased vaccinations should help close that gap. I also think that on average a black/brown person is more likely to just be afraid/skeptical of the vaccines due to past injustices and would be more receptive to education and less likely to dig their heels in and resist. So I think bigger gains could be made there. P My answer would have been to target senior citizens but CDC data says 95.8% of people aged >65 have received at least one dose so I think they are doing well enough.
What kind of outreach? Information campaigns have already been implemented and everyone that was going to be swayed by seeing the information on an ad has already gotten vaccinated. Remember that this is a group of people with very little trust in authority.
How do you increase vaccination rates among people that don't want to get vaccinated?
LegalLord, feel free to chime in -- you both were arguing pretty hard against vaccine mandates.
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On October 19 2021 17:13 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2021 07:27 BlackJack wrote:On October 18 2021 20:37 EnDeR_ wrote:On October 18 2021 19:52 BlackJack wrote:On October 18 2021 12:56 Salazarz wrote:
It's honestly tedious talking to you at this point, BlackJack. Just the other day you were arguing how governments are not to be trusted and how state officials routinely lie and mislead the public to achieve their goals -- but when a state officials quits in support of a position you are arguing for, suddenly that's an argument in favor of your position? How much of a hypocrite can you be?
I'm not sure this logic follows. If someone says you can't trust the NSA/CIA are they are a hypocrite if they talk about Edward Snowden because he worked for the CIA? The funny thing is you think I'm here to "own the libs" (whatever that means, I never heard this term before people starting using it here a few weeks ago). Here's a fun fact for you, team liquid used to have a sister site for poker that's still online with only a handful of active users still posting. There's a COVID vaccine thread on that site too that I also post in. For whatever reason, the majority opinion of people there is that COVID is a scamdemic, the vaccines are harmful, etc. Almost all my posts in that thread are explaining how bad COVID is, why they should get vaccinated, why the vaccines are safe, why even young/healthy people can die of COVID etc. Here's some typical posts I've made in that thread On October 07 2021 22:09 BlackJack wrote:
Nothing is 100% safe but it's way better than getting COVID. As Daut said it's not a difficult problem. Just compare the people that are sick in hospitals that are a) unvaccinated with COVID, b) vaccinated with COVID, and c) sick with vaccine reactions. It's a) 95%, b) 5%, c) 0%. No matter how you crunch the numbers it's very easy to conclude the correct answer On October 09 2021 12:08 BlackJack wrote:
Mate, 4+ million have died from COVID. How many do u think have died from the vaccine? Billions of vaccines have been give now, I think you would have heard something by now. I got my shot in December 2020 and I only had the people in the clinical trials as my evidence the vaccines are safe. You have a billion more guinea pigs than I did as evidence the vaccine is safe. Do you know why I never make those kinds of posts here? Because there's literally nobody here to direct those posts to barring the occasional troll account with 1 post that pops up and gets --Nuked-- immediately. I'm the most ""anti-vaxx"" (lol) guy here and I'm confident that I've personally persuaded more people to get vaccinated than anyone else on this site. I'm not here to "own the libs" any more than I am over there to "own the conservs" or whatever. If anything I'm trying to own the echo chambers that people that put themselves in. Over there people are in echo chambers that tell them COVID is a conspiracy and the vaccine is harmful. Over here it's an opposite echo chamber of all things COVID hysteria. It's unhealthy. It leads to people thinking we should ship the unvaccinated off to an island. It leads to people thinking we should rip children from their parents arms to vaccinate them from a disease that's killed less of them than the flu. It leads to people thinking the government should coerce us into getting boosters every 6 months. It leads to people thinking the government should start censoring the internet so people are only exposed to the truth. I'd very much not like to live in a society where any of those things are a reality so I'm going to try to pop the bubbles that people are putting themselves in. Obviously my arguments are not going to make any difference and I ultimately have little control over what happens, but it makes me feel a little better regardless. If you were the federal government right now and could dictate policy and could spend a smallish budget of say $100M to $1B, what would you do to increase vaccine uptake? Perhaps some kind of outreach targeted at the black/hispanic communities. A couple months ago I made an observation that black/brown people were overly represented in the people that were getting critically ill or dying of COVID that weren't severely fraily/elderly. Among the severely frail/elderly race didn't seem to matter, but as you look at younger and younger people, black and brown people seem to be more and more overrepresented. So naturally I wanted to know if my observation was true so I went to the CDC website to see if they have statistics not just on race but particularly on race + age and I found this graph: As you can see, at 85+ years of age it's pretty even in terms of deaths among races but the younger you get the more blacks/hispanics are overrepresented and whites becomes much more underrepresented. I'm sure there's a myriad of reasons this gap exists, socioeconomic, access to healthcare, comorbidities, etc., but increased vaccinations should help close that gap. I also think that on average a black/brown person is more likely to just be afraid/skeptical of the vaccines due to past injustices and would be more receptive to education and less likely to dig their heels in and resist. So I think bigger gains could be made there. P My answer would have been to target senior citizens but CDC data says 95.8% of people aged >65 have received at least one dose so I think they are doing well enough. What kind of outreach? Information campaigns have already been implemented and everyone that was going to be swayed by seeing the information on an ad has already gotten vaccinated. Remember that this is a group of people with very little trust in authority. How do you increase vaccination rates among people that don't want to get vaccinated? LegalLord, feel free to chime in -- you both were arguing pretty hard against vaccine mandates.
If I was entrusted with $100 million to $1 billion dollars of taxpayer money to spend on vaccine outreach I would make a task force of people with expertise in marketing and logistics to determine the best way to spend the money. I wouldn't just throw the money at the first idea that popped into my head after giving it 15 minutes thought. Is there a point to this hypothetical? Was there an idea you had that you wanted to share?
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On October 19 2021 18:07 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2021 17:13 EnDeR_ wrote:On October 19 2021 07:27 BlackJack wrote:On October 18 2021 20:37 EnDeR_ wrote:On October 18 2021 19:52 BlackJack wrote:On October 18 2021 12:56 Salazarz wrote:
It's honestly tedious talking to you at this point, BlackJack. Just the other day you were arguing how governments are not to be trusted and how state officials routinely lie and mislead the public to achieve their goals -- but when a state officials quits in support of a position you are arguing for, suddenly that's an argument in favor of your position? How much of a hypocrite can you be?
I'm not sure this logic follows. If someone says you can't trust the NSA/CIA are they are a hypocrite if they talk about Edward Snowden because he worked for the CIA? The funny thing is you think I'm here to "own the libs" (whatever that means, I never heard this term before people starting using it here a few weeks ago). Here's a fun fact for you, team liquid used to have a sister site for poker that's still online with only a handful of active users still posting. There's a COVID vaccine thread on that site too that I also post in. For whatever reason, the majority opinion of people there is that COVID is a scamdemic, the vaccines are harmful, etc. Almost all my posts in that thread are explaining how bad COVID is, why they should get vaccinated, why the vaccines are safe, why even young/healthy people can die of COVID etc. Here's some typical posts I've made in that thread On October 07 2021 22:09 BlackJack wrote:
Nothing is 100% safe but it's way better than getting COVID. As Daut said it's not a difficult problem. Just compare the people that are sick in hospitals that are a) unvaccinated with COVID, b) vaccinated with COVID, and c) sick with vaccine reactions. It's a) 95%, b) 5%, c) 0%. No matter how you crunch the numbers it's very easy to conclude the correct answer On October 09 2021 12:08 BlackJack wrote:
Mate, 4+ million have died from COVID. How many do u think have died from the vaccine? Billions of vaccines have been give now, I think you would have heard something by now. I got my shot in December 2020 and I only had the people in the clinical trials as my evidence the vaccines are safe. You have a billion more guinea pigs than I did as evidence the vaccine is safe. Do you know why I never make those kinds of posts here? Because there's literally nobody here to direct those posts to barring the occasional troll account with 1 post that pops up and gets --Nuked-- immediately. I'm the most ""anti-vaxx"" (lol) guy here and I'm confident that I've personally persuaded more people to get vaccinated than anyone else on this site. I'm not here to "own the libs" any more than I am over there to "own the conservs" or whatever. If anything I'm trying to own the echo chambers that people that put themselves in. Over there people are in echo chambers that tell them COVID is a conspiracy and the vaccine is harmful. Over here it's an opposite echo chamber of all things COVID hysteria. It's unhealthy. It leads to people thinking we should ship the unvaccinated off to an island. It leads to people thinking we should rip children from their parents arms to vaccinate them from a disease that's killed less of them than the flu. It leads to people thinking the government should coerce us into getting boosters every 6 months. It leads to people thinking the government should start censoring the internet so people are only exposed to the truth. I'd very much not like to live in a society where any of those things are a reality so I'm going to try to pop the bubbles that people are putting themselves in. Obviously my arguments are not going to make any difference and I ultimately have little control over what happens, but it makes me feel a little better regardless. If you were the federal government right now and could dictate policy and could spend a smallish budget of say $100M to $1B, what would you do to increase vaccine uptake? Perhaps some kind of outreach targeted at the black/hispanic communities. A couple months ago I made an observation that black/brown people were overly represented in the people that were getting critically ill or dying of COVID that weren't severely fraily/elderly. Among the severely frail/elderly race didn't seem to matter, but as you look at younger and younger people, black and brown people seem to be more and more overrepresented. So naturally I wanted to know if my observation was true so I went to the CDC website to see if they have statistics not just on race but particularly on race + age and I found this graph: As you can see, at 85+ years of age it's pretty even in terms of deaths among races but the younger you get the more blacks/hispanics are overrepresented and whites becomes much more underrepresented. I'm sure there's a myriad of reasons this gap exists, socioeconomic, access to healthcare, comorbidities, etc., but increased vaccinations should help close that gap. I also think that on average a black/brown person is more likely to just be afraid/skeptical of the vaccines due to past injustices and would be more receptive to education and less likely to dig their heels in and resist. So I think bigger gains could be made there. P My answer would have been to target senior citizens but CDC data says 95.8% of people aged >65 have received at least one dose so I think they are doing well enough. What kind of outreach? Information campaigns have already been implemented and everyone that was going to be swayed by seeing the information on an ad has already gotten vaccinated. Remember that this is a group of people with very little trust in authority. How do you increase vaccination rates among people that don't want to get vaccinated? LegalLord, feel free to chime in -- you both were arguing pretty hard against vaccine mandates. If I was entrusted with $100 million to $1 billion dollars of taxpayer money to spend on vaccine outreach I would make a task force of people with expertise in marketing and logistics to determine the best way to spend the money. I wouldn't just throw the money at the first idea that popped into my head after giving it 15 minutes thought. Is there a point to this hypothetical? Was there an idea you had that you wanted to share?
Yes, sure. But i think having some ideas to start with is also important.
My starting point would be that everybody has someone or a group of people that they trust enough to listen to. These are the people you need to reach, and these are the people you need to actively win over.
Now, i don't know who these people are. National celebrities might be among them, but i think more often than not we are talking about local leadership figures, be it preachers, community leaders or whatever. If you convince these people, and more importantly convince them that getting vaccinated is good for their community (which it is!), and help them spread the message, you can reach a lot of people.
My approach would thus be to identify these local community leader figures, and actually take them seriously. Have good information available, give them time with actual competent scientists, answer questions, communicate clearly and openly. The goal is to honestly convince them, so that they spread the message in their own community.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/mEqKVPg.png)
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