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On June 04 2021 23:36 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 22:44 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2021 22:42 BisuDagger wrote:On June 04 2021 22:30 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2021 19:16 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 12:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Another interesting thing about masks/business is that in general, states that did not use aggressive shutdown tactics suffered similarly economically. The take away from that is that people were doing what they felt was safe rather than relying on government recommendations. Florida bars being open doesn't mean I am any more likely to go to a bar if I don't think it's safe.
Two of the most opposite approaches are from my old state (Florida) and my new state (California). Florida was one of the most lax on their COVID restrictions and California was one of the most stringent. California now has the worst unemployment rate in the country (sans Hawaii), our governor is facing a recall election, and we're still not even fully open. Florida's governor has rising approval ratings and is now frequently talked about as a frontrunner for the next Presidential election. According to WorldoMeters California stands at 1,602 deaths per MM and Florida is at 1,721. I don’t think we’ll ever know Florida’s real numbers. Reporting and other dynamics are so varied it kind of doesn’t make sense to compare anyway. As an example, look at Vermont as an example of a state that basically avoided covid lol. They weren’t huge geniuses. Florida business restrictions were just as good as anywhere else. I rarely saw someone without a mask prior to the vaccine being released. All stores required masks for entry. Ron D. didn't say don't follow precautions, he just said Florida won't enforce it with fines. On the other hand, a co-worker of mine from San Diego said everyone back home through anti-mask / f-u governor parties and would have large gatherings. My boss said every time she had to fly to Seattle she'd see more people without masks then with masks. But Floridians for the most part, took it very seriously. Being in the area, I can say with 1000000000% confidence your boss was lying. If Floridians took covid seriously, it shouldn't be surprising they didn't do terribly. Edit: I think the real take away is that people didn’t do things because the government asked them to. People did what they themselves thought was safe. In some Oregon towns with only like 500 people, we have had over 100 cases because these rural dummies don’t think it’s real. This is in Oregon with some of the strictest rules. Other educated counties did REALLY well. During covid people chose for themselves. Whether you are Floridian or Oregonian, you did what you thought was best. What is more interesting to see is how covid varied by county. That paints a very different picture than state by state Let me rephrase, she'd see more people without masks in indoor spaces then she would in Florida. My point regardless, was that people want to make an example of Ron for being too relaxed, and I think there are definitely cases where he was too relaxed, but overall it he really had no impact on my county of residence (and others I have family in) because we took it upon ourselves to take it more seriously. I 100% agree with you about looking at it by county instead of state. Duval Struggled way more then Clay County county. Dade County (Miami City) suffered greatly and even the smaller county of Alachua (Gainesville City-College Town) did far worse.
Yeah basically every party town did terrible because people traveled there to party.
For whatever it’s worth, I’ve been plenty of places indoors and truly almost no one doesn’t wear a mask. Your boss was lying and I can’t imagine why. This is like me telling you the sky is green in Florida. I’d go so far as to say it’s a social taboo not to wear a mask. Every vaccinated person I know still wears a mask to Costco. I honestly don’t know when we’ll be able to stop.
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Bisutopia19158 Posts
On June 04 2021 23:51 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 23:36 BisuDagger wrote:On June 04 2021 22:44 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2021 22:42 BisuDagger wrote:On June 04 2021 22:30 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2021 19:16 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 12:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Another interesting thing about masks/business is that in general, states that did not use aggressive shutdown tactics suffered similarly economically. The take away from that is that people were doing what they felt was safe rather than relying on government recommendations. Florida bars being open doesn't mean I am any more likely to go to a bar if I don't think it's safe.
Two of the most opposite approaches are from my old state (Florida) and my new state (California). Florida was one of the most lax on their COVID restrictions and California was one of the most stringent. California now has the worst unemployment rate in the country (sans Hawaii), our governor is facing a recall election, and we're still not even fully open. Florida's governor has rising approval ratings and is now frequently talked about as a frontrunner for the next Presidential election. According to WorldoMeters California stands at 1,602 deaths per MM and Florida is at 1,721. I don’t think we’ll ever know Florida’s real numbers. Reporting and other dynamics are so varied it kind of doesn’t make sense to compare anyway. As an example, look at Vermont as an example of a state that basically avoided covid lol. They weren’t huge geniuses. Florida business restrictions were just as good as anywhere else. I rarely saw someone without a mask prior to the vaccine being released. All stores required masks for entry. Ron D. didn't say don't follow precautions, he just said Florida won't enforce it with fines. On the other hand, a co-worker of mine from San Diego said everyone back home through anti-mask / f-u governor parties and would have large gatherings. My boss said every time she had to fly to Seattle she'd see more people without masks then with masks. But Floridians for the most part, took it very seriously. Being in the area, I can say with 1000000000% confidence your boss was lying. If Floridians took covid seriously, it shouldn't be surprising they didn't do terribly. Edit: I think the real take away is that people didn’t do things because the government asked them to. People did what they themselves thought was safe. In some Oregon towns with only like 500 people, we have had over 100 cases because these rural dummies don’t think it’s real. This is in Oregon with some of the strictest rules. Other educated counties did REALLY well. During covid people chose for themselves. Whether you are Floridian or Oregonian, you did what you thought was best. What is more interesting to see is how covid varied by county. That paints a very different picture than state by state Let me rephrase, she'd see more people without masks in indoor spaces then she would in Florida. My point regardless, was that people want to make an example of Ron for being too relaxed, and I think there are definitely cases where he was too relaxed, but overall it he really had no impact on my county of residence (and others I have family in) because we took it upon ourselves to take it more seriously. I 100% agree with you about looking at it by county instead of state. Duval Struggled way more then Clay County county. Dade County (Miami City) suffered greatly and even the smaller county of Alachua (Gainesville City-College Town) did far worse. Yeah basically every party town did terrible because people traveled there to party. For whatever it’s worth, I’ve been plenty of places indoors and truly almost no one doesn’t wear a mask. Your boss was lying and I can’t imagine why. This is like me telling you the sky is green in Florida. I’d go so far as to say it’s a social taboo not to wear a mask. Every vaccinated person I know still wears a mask to Costco. I honestly don’t know when we’ll be able to stop.
Costco is it's own beast of a place. They were the first to be strict about the rules and probably will be last to lift restrictions. I've been vaccinated (1st shot so far) and I'll probably continue to wear my mask through the end of the year. After doing my best for this long to prevent getting or spreading the virus, I sure as hell am willing to keep it up for a little longer.
edit: I wouldn't put it past my boss to be dramatic. But the anti-mask parties are/were 100% a thing unfortunately.
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On June 05 2021 00:46 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 23:51 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2021 23:36 BisuDagger wrote:On June 04 2021 22:44 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2021 22:42 BisuDagger wrote:On June 04 2021 22:30 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2021 19:16 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 12:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Another interesting thing about masks/business is that in general, states that did not use aggressive shutdown tactics suffered similarly economically. The take away from that is that people were doing what they felt was safe rather than relying on government recommendations. Florida bars being open doesn't mean I am any more likely to go to a bar if I don't think it's safe.
Two of the most opposite approaches are from my old state (Florida) and my new state (California). Florida was one of the most lax on their COVID restrictions and California was one of the most stringent. California now has the worst unemployment rate in the country (sans Hawaii), our governor is facing a recall election, and we're still not even fully open. Florida's governor has rising approval ratings and is now frequently talked about as a frontrunner for the next Presidential election. According to WorldoMeters California stands at 1,602 deaths per MM and Florida is at 1,721. I don’t think we’ll ever know Florida’s real numbers. Reporting and other dynamics are so varied it kind of doesn’t make sense to compare anyway. As an example, look at Vermont as an example of a state that basically avoided covid lol. They weren’t huge geniuses. Florida business restrictions were just as good as anywhere else. I rarely saw someone without a mask prior to the vaccine being released. All stores required masks for entry. Ron D. didn't say don't follow precautions, he just said Florida won't enforce it with fines. On the other hand, a co-worker of mine from San Diego said everyone back home through anti-mask / f-u governor parties and would have large gatherings. My boss said every time she had to fly to Seattle she'd see more people without masks then with masks. But Floridians for the most part, took it very seriously. Being in the area, I can say with 1000000000% confidence your boss was lying. If Floridians took covid seriously, it shouldn't be surprising they didn't do terribly. Edit: I think the real take away is that people didn’t do things because the government asked them to. People did what they themselves thought was safe. In some Oregon towns with only like 500 people, we have had over 100 cases because these rural dummies don’t think it’s real. This is in Oregon with some of the strictest rules. Other educated counties did REALLY well. During covid people chose for themselves. Whether you are Floridian or Oregonian, you did what you thought was best. What is more interesting to see is how covid varied by county. That paints a very different picture than state by state Let me rephrase, she'd see more people without masks in indoor spaces then she would in Florida. My point regardless, was that people want to make an example of Ron for being too relaxed, and I think there are definitely cases where he was too relaxed, but overall it he really had no impact on my county of residence (and others I have family in) because we took it upon ourselves to take it more seriously. I 100% agree with you about looking at it by county instead of state. Duval Struggled way more then Clay County county. Dade County (Miami City) suffered greatly and even the smaller county of Alachua (Gainesville City-College Town) did far worse. Yeah basically every party town did terrible because people traveled there to party. For whatever it’s worth, I’ve been plenty of places indoors and truly almost no one doesn’t wear a mask. Your boss was lying and I can’t imagine why. This is like me telling you the sky is green in Florida. I’d go so far as to say it’s a social taboo not to wear a mask. Every vaccinated person I know still wears a mask to Costco. I honestly don’t know when we’ll be able to stop. Costco is it's own beast of a place. They were the first to be strict about the rules and probably will be last to lift restrictions. I've been vaccinated (1st shot so far) and I'll probably continue to wear my mask through the end of the year. After doing my best for this long to prevent getting or spreading the virus, I sure as hell am willing to keep it up for a little longer. edit: I wouldn't put it past my boss to be dramatic. But the anti-mask parties are/were 100% a thing unfortunately.
Well Costco's new policy is that if you are vaccinated, no mask necessary. In my area, with extremely high vaccination rates, almost no one is maskless. And yeah the no mask parties are whack but its everywhere. Even Germans are having anti-authority mask parties. That's gotta tell you something xD
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On June 04 2021 22:42 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 22:30 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2021 19:16 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 12:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Another interesting thing about masks/business is that in general, states that did not use aggressive shutdown tactics suffered similarly economically. The take away from that is that people were doing what they felt was safe rather than relying on government recommendations. Florida bars being open doesn't mean I am any more likely to go to a bar if I don't think it's safe.
Two of the most opposite approaches are from my old state (Florida) and my new state (California). Florida was one of the most lax on their COVID restrictions and California was one of the most stringent. California now has the worst unemployment rate in the country (sans Hawaii), our governor is facing a recall election, and we're still not even fully open. Florida's governor has rising approval ratings and is now frequently talked about as a frontrunner for the next Presidential election. According to WorldoMeters California stands at 1,602 deaths per MM and Florida is at 1,721. I don’t think we’ll ever know Florida’s real numbers. Reporting and other dynamics are so varied it kind of doesn’t make sense to compare anyway. As an example, look at Vermont as an example of a state that basically avoided covid lol. They weren’t huge geniuses. Florida business restrictions were just as good as anywhere else. I rarely saw someone without a mask prior to the vaccine being released. All stores required masks for entry. Ron D. didn't say don't follow precautions, he just said Florida won't enforce it with fines. On the other hand, a co-worker of mine from San Diego said everyone back home threw anti-mask / f-u governor parties and would have large gatherings. My boss said every time she had to fly to Seattle she'd see more people without masks then with masks. But Floridians for the most part, took it very seriously.
Like Mohdoo, I don't know the people you are getting your anecdotes from but they are completely opposite to what I have experienced as well. I live in California, I am from Florida, and I just got back from a little trip to Seattle last week so I have some experience in all of the places you have talked about. In addition to my experience visiting these states since the pandemic, polls show the Pacific states and the Northeast states have the highest mask adherence in the country which should be no surprise to anyone since mask-wearing has become partisan. Here in the San Francisco Bay Area it's only within the last month that I would go on a hike without seeing basically 100% mask usage among every other hiker I came across. I think at some level these people understood how ridiculous it was the be wearing a mask in the middle of nature with nobody within earshot of them but they did it anyway just because they didn't want to be seen as a Trumpster.
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On June 04 2021 21:37 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 19:16 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 12:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Another interesting thing about masks/business is that in general, states that did not use aggressive shutdown tactics suffered similarly economically. The take away from that is that people were doing what they felt was safe rather than relying on government recommendations. Florida bars being open doesn't mean I am any more likely to go to a bar if I don't think it's safe.
Two of the most opposite approaches are from my old state (Florida) and my new state (California). Florida was one of the most lax on their COVID restrictions and California was one of the most stringent. California now has the worst unemployment rate in the country (sans Hawaii), our governor is facing a recall election, and we're still not even fully open. Florida's governor has rising approval ratings and is now frequently talked about as a frontrunner for the next Presidential election. According to WorldoMeters California stands at 1,602 deaths per MM and Florida is at 1,721. What's the difference in population density?
Florida has a higher population density. Florida also has a higher percentage of senior citizens than any state in the country.
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On June 05 2021 04:27 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 21:37 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 04 2021 19:16 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 12:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Another interesting thing about masks/business is that in general, states that did not use aggressive shutdown tactics suffered similarly economically. The take away from that is that people were doing what they felt was safe rather than relying on government recommendations. Florida bars being open doesn't mean I am any more likely to go to a bar if I don't think it's safe.
Two of the most opposite approaches are from my old state (Florida) and my new state (California). Florida was one of the most lax on their COVID restrictions and California was one of the most stringent. California now has the worst unemployment rate in the country (sans Hawaii), our governor is facing a recall election, and we're still not even fully open. Florida's governor has rising approval ratings and is now frequently talked about as a frontrunner for the next Presidential election. According to WorldoMeters California stands at 1,602 deaths per MM and Florida is at 1,721. What's the difference in population density? Florida has a higher population density. Florida also has a higher percentage of senior citizens than any state in the country.
If you look at the cities, CA has larger population density. Theres just a whole lot of nothing in CA that lowers its density
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On June 05 2021 08:39 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2021 04:27 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 21:37 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 04 2021 19:16 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 12:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Another interesting thing about masks/business is that in general, states that did not use aggressive shutdown tactics suffered similarly economically. The take away from that is that people were doing what they felt was safe rather than relying on government recommendations. Florida bars being open doesn't mean I am any more likely to go to a bar if I don't think it's safe.
Two of the most opposite approaches are from my old state (Florida) and my new state (California). Florida was one of the most lax on their COVID restrictions and California was one of the most stringent. California now has the worst unemployment rate in the country (sans Hawaii), our governor is facing a recall election, and we're still not even fully open. Florida's governor has rising approval ratings and is now frequently talked about as a frontrunner for the next Presidential election. According to WorldoMeters California stands at 1,602 deaths per MM and Florida is at 1,721. What's the difference in population density? Florida has a higher population density. Florida also has a higher percentage of senior citizens than any state in the country. If you look at the cities, CA has larger population density. Theres just a whole lot of nothing in CA that lowers its density
Naively, one would think that if you have lots of very densely populated cities, you'd need stricter covid prevention rules to stop the spread so the approach by CA makes sense to me. Florida seems to have just relied on its citizens that live in densely populated cities to have common sense, which seems to have worked to a point. At the end of the day, it's a bit of a gamble.
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Compare swedens approach to the rest of "the nordic area".
Then go ahead and have the gull to argue that measures didn't work.
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Looks like Netanyahu is claiming election fraud after a coalition was formed to unseat him www.theguardian.com
Benjamin Netanyahu has said a newly formed Israeli coalition that is poised to unseat him as prime minister was the result of “the greatest election fraud” in the history of democracy.
The sweeping accusation, similar in tone to those made about the US election by his former close ally Donald Trump, came as Israeli security services warned of an escalation in violent discourse in the country
That didn't take long. Excellent leadership here, America.
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Will trump fight netanyahu in the cage for the title of "greatest election fraud" ?
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Manchin has come out and said he's voting against HR 1, the voting rights counter to the republicans passing new jim crow laws everywhere. To me, that's my final line in the sand : if he doesn't reverse positions in 72 hours, they need to strip him of all committee assignments minimum. There's no excuse for his position, especially considering his previous one ("would vote for it but not vote to destroy the filibuster") would effectively have been the same but without rubbing every non-fascist's nose in it. His logic is also fucking AWFUL. Saying he's doing it out of bipartisanship? What? That he wants GOP senators to rise to the occasion? Dude sounds senile, not just naive.
https://www.wvgazettemail.com/opinion/op_ed_commentaries/joe-manchin-why-im-voting-against-the-for-the-people-act/article_c7eb2551-a500-5f77-aa37-2e42d0af870f.html
(He went on fox to defend this Op-Ed and even Chris Wallace was basically calling him a moron the entire interview. That's how unbelievable his stated logic is).
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So, the economy might not bounce back as quickly as expected because businesses cannot fill their posts.
www.theguardian.com
The US Chamber of Commerce found that in March, the most recent month which had available data, there were 8.1m vacant job openings in the US, a record high.
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According to the chamber’s survey of local business organizations a “lack of available workers” is seen as the main thing holding back the economy. More than 83% of businesses said it was harder to find workers than five years ago.
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The factors include the temporary visas that some migrant workers – and by extension businesses – rely on being blocked under the pandemic, the struggle some people have faced to find childcare, and higher levels of government employment benefits meaning people are less desperate to find work.
So, I know that conservative pundits are already blaming this on welfare spending throughout covid and poor people's general laziness -- obviously the story is more nuanced.
From my understanding, a lot of these are businesses paying very little and offering suboptimal benefits. What's your view on this? Is it good for the economy in the long-term if workers are pickier about where and how they work and demand better jobs with better hours and better working conditions?
My personal view is that if the workforce has better jobs and access to more money, they will actually spend it and grow the economy quicker. We are already seeing that happening right now, with people going nuts booking holidays and just generally spending all the money they saved up -- trickle-up economics if you will. This should hopefully generate pressure to provide better-paying jobs and create an upwards mobility economy cycle.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Feels more like the excuse that the business world latched onto than the real core of the issue. If it were really just a lack of labor while we're "in boomtown" like all the hype men say, wages would quickly rise to meet the hiring needs and everything would be swell. While that's happening in some places, there's a deeper problem here.
A short term boom is basically inevitable due to the combination of:
1. Businesses now being in a position to reopen properly
2. Money-printing making the assets of the well-off worth more
3. Deficit spending and the temporary removal of lots of expenses like loans and housing making the income of the poorly off higher.
But eventually the reopening high wears off and you have to unwind the circumstances of the boom. And beneath the surface a lot of damage has been done by a year of severely adverse conditions for a previously rather weak economy. Not sure how it'll look, but one day we'll find ourselves screwed over quite badly by some combination of rampant inflation and interest rates going up to counterbalance inflation, at which point we'll see a definite descent towards disaster.
Whatever boom we're seeing is only in the shadow of the government policy that generated and spread around absurd amounts of money. That'd generate what looks like growth even in countries as badly positioned as debt-crisis Greece, but without an engine for organic growth it's little more than a temporary fix. And beyond "reopening" (or "trying to restore the circumstances of already fairly stagnant January 2020" really) we don't really have any such organic growth.
More directly, it bears mention that rampant inflation makes any given salary worth less in actual purchasing power, making the alternative of not-working more attractive overall.
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On June 07 2021 05:39 Nevuk wrote:Manchin has come out and said he's voting against HR 1, the voting rights counter to the republicans passing new jim crow laws everywhere. To me, that's my final line in the sand : if he doesn't reverse positions in 72 hours, they need to strip him of all committee assignments minimum. There's no excuse for his position, especially considering his previous one ("would vote for it but not vote to destroy the filibuster") would effectively have been the same but without rubbing every non-fascist's nose in it. His logic is also fucking AWFUL. Saying he's doing it out of bipartisanship? What? That he wants GOP senators to rise to the occasion? Dude sounds senile, not just naive. https://www.wvgazettemail.com/opinion/op_ed_commentaries/joe-manchin-why-im-voting-against-the-for-the-people-act/article_c7eb2551-a500-5f77-aa37-2e42d0af870f.html(He went on fox to defend this Op-Ed and even Chris Wallace was basically calling him a moron the entire interview. That's how unbelievable his stated logic is).
Seems he's dug his heels in and Biden's ostensible agenda is all but DOA. Unsurprisingly Democrats are going with the "well you have to elect more Democrats!" while failing to ensure the people that won them tight margins can even vote in the next election.
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Word is that Keystone XL is finally kaput for good, nice little victory for environmentalists
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
To my surprise, looks like the pipeline was only 8 percent completed at the time of cancellation. Though I'm hesitant to say it was a good decision to cancel it (pipelines are, ultimately, better than the other forms of O&G transport for reducing environmental impact), I do find it strange how little progress they'd made in the actual deployment of. They should've made every effort to ensure that it gets completed before the end of 2020 rather than gamble on four more years of favorable presidential climate for themselves.
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EPT
