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On June 04 2021 07:21 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 07:14 EnDeR_ wrote:
The antimask thing just doesn't make any sense. It's a low cost/low impact intervention with really high effectiveness. Men in the US see it as a challenge to their masculinity.
Makes one wonder how many anti-maskers also believe they can drive safely after having more than a couple drinks.
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On June 04 2021 07:00 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 06:50 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 05:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:51 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 05:22 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:21 BlackJack wrote:
The reason people talk about masks a lot is because it's easier to demonize the COVIDIOTS if you phrase them as selfish assholes that would rather kill somebody than wear a cloth over their face. In reality a lot of them are pissed because they have been told their businesses or jobs were no longer essential and many lost their source of income, can't care for their family, are at risk of losing their homes, etc. Their hatred of masks is secondary to all that but for some reason it gets brought to the forefront by disingenuous people that want to imply that all we are asking of them is to wear a mask when really what we are asking of them is to impoverish themselves. So are you saying there's some connection between people being impoverished by covid and people not wearing masks? What do you reckon the correlation is? Yes, I think so. People that aren't happy about having to impoverish themselves over COVID aren't going to be happy about wearing a mask. In general they believe people are too hysterical over COVID and wearing a mask is just offering more legitimacy to the hysteria. It's not even that ridiculous of a take, here's a poll from gallup that highlights how ridiculously off people's view of COVID is: Republicans are more likely than Democrats to correctly identify the risk of being hospitalized with COVID-19. Nearly 70% of Democrats wildly overestimate it. You seem to be drawing alot of associations here. You think republicans are more clued up about covid, and are also less likely to wear a mask and more likely to have been made poor by covid? I live in a very poor area of the UK, and just like anywhere else over here, some people wear masks and some don't. I don't really get how being made poor by covid would affect mask wearing. To me its got more to do with whether or not someone cares about covid in general, and whether or not they give a shit about potentially spreading it. You seem to want to make this a partisan issue of republicans not wearing masks because they are smart and have lost money, but you could just as easily portray it as republicans not wearing masks because they are rude and don't care whether or not they are making people uncomfortable or ill. Do you really think that people that lost their businesses/jobs for not being "essential" are not more likely to be against masks/lockdowns than the average person? It's really easy to just say that people that oppose masks/lockdowns are just selfish assholes. You're right it's not a Republican/Democrat thing though since anti-lockdown/mask protestors aren't just in the US. I really don't understand why someone who lost their job will react by saying "Right then, I won't wear a mask." That also doesn't work with my personal experience of the issue. I know plenty of people who have lost their jobs. Most of them wear masks when out in public because they would feel like a bit of dick being in an enclosed space where everyone is wearing a mask except them. Others don't give a shit. I think assigning some other motive than not giving a shit is kinda weird to be honest. It isn't a protest at them having lost their jobs, its just that they don't give a shit about masks. The anti-mask 'movement' was present right from the very beginning of covid, before anyone had lost their jobs. It might be easy to say that not wearing a mask is the sign of a selfish asshole, but do you know what's easier than that? Wearing a mask. Of course, there might be a correlation where the causation is backwards. People who won't wear a mask could definitely be more likely to lose their jobs. When it comes to being anti-lockdown, I can see why it would be correlated with the financial consequences of the lockdown. That makes sense. Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 06:41 farvacola wrote:On June 04 2021 05:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:51 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 05:22 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:21 BlackJack wrote:
The reason people talk about masks a lot is because it's easier to demonize the COVIDIOTS if you phrase them as selfish assholes that would rather kill somebody than wear a cloth over their face. In reality a lot of them are pissed because they have been told their businesses or jobs were no longer essential and many lost their source of income, can't care for their family, are at risk of losing their homes, etc. Their hatred of masks is secondary to all that but for some reason it gets brought to the forefront by disingenuous people that want to imply that all we are asking of them is to wear a mask when really what we are asking of them is to impoverish themselves. So are you saying there's some connection between people being impoverished by covid and people not wearing masks? What do you reckon the correlation is? Yes, I think so. People that aren't happy about having to impoverish themselves over COVID aren't going to be happy about wearing a mask. In general they believe people are too hysterical over COVID and wearing a mask is just offering more legitimacy to the hysteria. It's not even that ridiculous of a take, here's a poll from gallup that highlights how ridiculously off people's view of COVID is: https://twitter.com/TheEliKlein/status/1373408037692710914Republicans are more likely than Democrats to correctly identify the risk of being hospitalized with COVID-19. Nearly 70% of Democrats wildly overestimate it. You seem to be drawing alot of associations here. You think republicans are more clued up about covid, and are also less likely to wear a mask and more likely to have been made poor by covid? I live in a very poor area of the UK, and just like anywhere else over here, some people wear masks and some don't. I don't really get how being made poor by covid would affect mask wearing. To me its got more to do with whether or not someone cares about covid in general, and whether or not they give a shit about potentially spreading it. You seem to want to make this a partisan issue of republicans not wearing masks because they are smart and have lost money, but you could just as easily portray it as republicans not wearing masks because they are rude and don't care whether or not they are making people uncomfortable or ill. I would guess another significant variable that tends to figure into an individual’s “do I follow Covid rules” calculation is whether they are close with someone who has either died from Covid or suffered long term consequences. Yeah that makes sense. I can't imagine anyone who knows someone who died from covid would be happy not following the rules.
You're not wrong. Pretty much nobody lost their business because of mask-wearing so there's no logical reason for why someone that lost their business wouldn't still be pro-mask. Nevertheless, the idea of mask-wearing is still coupled with the lockdowns so people tend to oppose either both or neither. If you're anti-lockdown then you don't want to give any legitimacy to the idea that "covid is dangerous and we need to take measures against it." Supporting mask wearing is supporting taking measures against COVID and that's just one step away from closing down businesses again. So even if you agree logically that you can be pro-mask while being anti-lockdown (where I tend to find myself actually) it still behooves you to be anti-mask and anti-lockdown so as to not concede even an inch to the other side.
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On June 04 2021 07:53 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 07:00 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 06:50 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 05:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:51 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 05:22 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:21 BlackJack wrote:
The reason people talk about masks a lot is because it's easier to demonize the COVIDIOTS if you phrase them as selfish assholes that would rather kill somebody than wear a cloth over their face. In reality a lot of them are pissed because they have been told their businesses or jobs were no longer essential and many lost their source of income, can't care for their family, are at risk of losing their homes, etc. Their hatred of masks is secondary to all that but for some reason it gets brought to the forefront by disingenuous people that want to imply that all we are asking of them is to wear a mask when really what we are asking of them is to impoverish themselves. So are you saying there's some connection between people being impoverished by covid and people not wearing masks? What do you reckon the correlation is? Yes, I think so. People that aren't happy about having to impoverish themselves over COVID aren't going to be happy about wearing a mask. In general they believe people are too hysterical over COVID and wearing a mask is just offering more legitimacy to the hysteria. It's not even that ridiculous of a take, here's a poll from gallup that highlights how ridiculously off people's view of COVID is: https://twitter.com/TheEliKlein/status/1373408037692710914Republicans are more likely than Democrats to correctly identify the risk of being hospitalized with COVID-19. Nearly 70% of Democrats wildly overestimate it. You seem to be drawing alot of associations here. You think republicans are more clued up about covid, and are also less likely to wear a mask and more likely to have been made poor by covid? I live in a very poor area of the UK, and just like anywhere else over here, some people wear masks and some don't. I don't really get how being made poor by covid would affect mask wearing. To me its got more to do with whether or not someone cares about covid in general, and whether or not they give a shit about potentially spreading it. You seem to want to make this a partisan issue of republicans not wearing masks because they are smart and have lost money, but you could just as easily portray it as republicans not wearing masks because they are rude and don't care whether or not they are making people uncomfortable or ill. Do you really think that people that lost their businesses/jobs for not being "essential" are not more likely to be against masks/lockdowns than the average person? It's really easy to just say that people that oppose masks/lockdowns are just selfish assholes. You're right it's not a Republican/Democrat thing though since anti-lockdown/mask protestors aren't just in the US. I really don't understand why someone who lost their job will react by saying "Right then, I won't wear a mask." That also doesn't work with my personal experience of the issue. I know plenty of people who have lost their jobs. Most of them wear masks when out in public because they would feel like a bit of dick being in an enclosed space where everyone is wearing a mask except them. Others don't give a shit. I think assigning some other motive than not giving a shit is kinda weird to be honest. It isn't a protest at them having lost their jobs, its just that they don't give a shit about masks. The anti-mask 'movement' was present right from the very beginning of covid, before anyone had lost their jobs. It might be easy to say that not wearing a mask is the sign of a selfish asshole, but do you know what's easier than that? Wearing a mask. Of course, there might be a correlation where the causation is backwards. People who won't wear a mask could definitely be more likely to lose their jobs. When it comes to being anti-lockdown, I can see why it would be correlated with the financial consequences of the lockdown. That makes sense. On June 04 2021 06:41 farvacola wrote:On June 04 2021 05:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:51 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 05:22 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:21 BlackJack wrote:
The reason people talk about masks a lot is because it's easier to demonize the COVIDIOTS if you phrase them as selfish assholes that would rather kill somebody than wear a cloth over their face. In reality a lot of them are pissed because they have been told their businesses or jobs were no longer essential and many lost their source of income, can't care for their family, are at risk of losing their homes, etc. Their hatred of masks is secondary to all that but for some reason it gets brought to the forefront by disingenuous people that want to imply that all we are asking of them is to wear a mask when really what we are asking of them is to impoverish themselves. So are you saying there's some connection between people being impoverished by covid and people not wearing masks? What do you reckon the correlation is? Yes, I think so. People that aren't happy about having to impoverish themselves over COVID aren't going to be happy about wearing a mask. In general they believe people are too hysterical over COVID and wearing a mask is just offering more legitimacy to the hysteria. It's not even that ridiculous of a take, here's a poll from gallup that highlights how ridiculously off people's view of COVID is: https://twitter.com/TheEliKlein/status/1373408037692710914Republicans are more likely than Democrats to correctly identify the risk of being hospitalized with COVID-19. Nearly 70% of Democrats wildly overestimate it. You seem to be drawing alot of associations here. You think republicans are more clued up about covid, and are also less likely to wear a mask and more likely to have been made poor by covid? I live in a very poor area of the UK, and just like anywhere else over here, some people wear masks and some don't. I don't really get how being made poor by covid would affect mask wearing. To me its got more to do with whether or not someone cares about covid in general, and whether or not they give a shit about potentially spreading it. You seem to want to make this a partisan issue of republicans not wearing masks because they are smart and have lost money, but you could just as easily portray it as republicans not wearing masks because they are rude and don't care whether or not they are making people uncomfortable or ill. I would guess another significant variable that tends to figure into an individual’s “do I follow Covid rules” calculation is whether they are close with someone who has either died from Covid or suffered long term consequences. Yeah that makes sense. I can't imagine anyone who knows someone who died from covid would be happy not following the rules. You're not wrong. Pretty much nobody lost their business because of mask-wearing so there's no logical reason for why someone that lost their business wouldn't still be pro-mask. Nevertheless, the idea of mask-wearing is still coupled with the lockdowns so people tend to oppose either both or neither. If you're anti-lockdown then you don't want to give any legitimacy to the idea that "covid is dangerous and we need to take measures against it." Supporting mask wearing is supporting taking measures against COVID and that's just one step away from closing down businesses again. So even if you agree logically that you can be pro-mask while being anti-lockdown (where I tend to find myself actually) it still behooves you to be anti-mask and anti-lockdown so as to not concede even an inch to the other side.
Yeah I see what you're saying.
Perhaps I'm thinking about it logically (and from a stance of being fine with wearing a mask) so I just don't get it, because its a little bit irrational, but not everyone reacts rationally to stuff, especially where 'taking a stance' is the priority.
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On June 04 2021 07:53 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 07:00 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 06:50 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 05:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:51 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 05:22 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:21 BlackJack wrote:
The reason people talk about masks a lot is because it's easier to demonize the COVIDIOTS if you phrase them as selfish assholes that would rather kill somebody than wear a cloth over their face. In reality a lot of them are pissed because they have been told their businesses or jobs were no longer essential and many lost their source of income, can't care for their family, are at risk of losing their homes, etc. Their hatred of masks is secondary to all that but for some reason it gets brought to the forefront by disingenuous people that want to imply that all we are asking of them is to wear a mask when really what we are asking of them is to impoverish themselves. So are you saying there's some connection between people being impoverished by covid and people not wearing masks? What do you reckon the correlation is? Yes, I think so. People that aren't happy about having to impoverish themselves over COVID aren't going to be happy about wearing a mask. In general they believe people are too hysterical over COVID and wearing a mask is just offering more legitimacy to the hysteria. It's not even that ridiculous of a take, here's a poll from gallup that highlights how ridiculously off people's view of COVID is: https://twitter.com/TheEliKlein/status/1373408037692710914Republicans are more likely than Democrats to correctly identify the risk of being hospitalized with COVID-19. Nearly 70% of Democrats wildly overestimate it. You seem to be drawing alot of associations here. You think republicans are more clued up about covid, and are also less likely to wear a mask and more likely to have been made poor by covid? I live in a very poor area of the UK, and just like anywhere else over here, some people wear masks and some don't. I don't really get how being made poor by covid would affect mask wearing. To me its got more to do with whether or not someone cares about covid in general, and whether or not they give a shit about potentially spreading it. You seem to want to make this a partisan issue of republicans not wearing masks because they are smart and have lost money, but you could just as easily portray it as republicans not wearing masks because they are rude and don't care whether or not they are making people uncomfortable or ill. Do you really think that people that lost their businesses/jobs for not being "essential" are not more likely to be against masks/lockdowns than the average person? It's really easy to just say that people that oppose masks/lockdowns are just selfish assholes. You're right it's not a Republican/Democrat thing though since anti-lockdown/mask protestors aren't just in the US. I really don't understand why someone who lost their job will react by saying "Right then, I won't wear a mask." That also doesn't work with my personal experience of the issue. I know plenty of people who have lost their jobs. Most of them wear masks when out in public because they would feel like a bit of dick being in an enclosed space where everyone is wearing a mask except them. Others don't give a shit. I think assigning some other motive than not giving a shit is kinda weird to be honest. It isn't a protest at them having lost their jobs, its just that they don't give a shit about masks. The anti-mask 'movement' was present right from the very beginning of covid, before anyone had lost their jobs. It might be easy to say that not wearing a mask is the sign of a selfish asshole, but do you know what's easier than that? Wearing a mask. Of course, there might be a correlation where the causation is backwards. People who won't wear a mask could definitely be more likely to lose their jobs. When it comes to being anti-lockdown, I can see why it would be correlated with the financial consequences of the lockdown. That makes sense. On June 04 2021 06:41 farvacola wrote:On June 04 2021 05:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:51 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 05:22 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:21 BlackJack wrote:
The reason people talk about masks a lot is because it's easier to demonize the COVIDIOTS if you phrase them as selfish assholes that would rather kill somebody than wear a cloth over their face. In reality a lot of them are pissed because they have been told their businesses or jobs were no longer essential and many lost their source of income, can't care for their family, are at risk of losing their homes, etc. Their hatred of masks is secondary to all that but for some reason it gets brought to the forefront by disingenuous people that want to imply that all we are asking of them is to wear a mask when really what we are asking of them is to impoverish themselves. So are you saying there's some connection between people being impoverished by covid and people not wearing masks? What do you reckon the correlation is? Yes, I think so. People that aren't happy about having to impoverish themselves over COVID aren't going to be happy about wearing a mask. In general they believe people are too hysterical over COVID and wearing a mask is just offering more legitimacy to the hysteria. It's not even that ridiculous of a take, here's a poll from gallup that highlights how ridiculously off people's view of COVID is: https://twitter.com/TheEliKlein/status/1373408037692710914Republicans are more likely than Democrats to correctly identify the risk of being hospitalized with COVID-19. Nearly 70% of Democrats wildly overestimate it. You seem to be drawing alot of associations here. You think republicans are more clued up about covid, and are also less likely to wear a mask and more likely to have been made poor by covid? I live in a very poor area of the UK, and just like anywhere else over here, some people wear masks and some don't. I don't really get how being made poor by covid would affect mask wearing. To me its got more to do with whether or not someone cares about covid in general, and whether or not they give a shit about potentially spreading it. You seem to want to make this a partisan issue of republicans not wearing masks because they are smart and have lost money, but you could just as easily portray it as republicans not wearing masks because they are rude and don't care whether or not they are making people uncomfortable or ill. I would guess another significant variable that tends to figure into an individual’s “do I follow Covid rules” calculation is whether they are close with someone who has either died from Covid or suffered long term consequences. Yeah that makes sense. I can't imagine anyone who knows someone who died from covid would be happy not following the rules. You're not wrong. Pretty much nobody lost their business because of mask-wearing so there's no logical reason for why someone that lost their business wouldn't still be pro-mask. Nevertheless, the idea of mask-wearing is still coupled with the lockdowns so people tend to oppose either both or neither. If you're anti-lockdown then you don't want to give any legitimacy to the idea that "covid is dangerous and we need to take measures against it." Supporting mask wearing is supporting taking measures against COVID and that's just one step away from closing down businesses again. So even if you agree logically that you can be pro-mask while being anti-lockdown (where I tend to find myself actually) it still behooves you to be anti-mask and anti-lockdown so as to not concede even an inch to the other side.
in my opinion this is very all or nothing for no good reason. one can recognize lockdowns as bad for business and still understand covid is a risk and needs measures taken against it. the argument should be about what measures, not whether there should be measures.
playing the extremes has never behooved anyone. it doesn’t take even remotely bright minds to understand life is full of gray areas, so i don’t buy this at all.
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When I think of COVIDIOTS I tend to think of the Upton Sinclar quote, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." Being a COVIDIOT isn't just about being stupid. It's a survival mechanism for some of them. Their livelihood depends on their brain telling them COVID isn't real.
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seems there was an obvious solution to that problem but that’s been hashed out into eternity
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On June 04 2021 08:11 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 07:53 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 07:00 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 06:50 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 05:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:51 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 05:22 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:21 BlackJack wrote:
The reason people talk about masks a lot is because it's easier to demonize the COVIDIOTS if you phrase them as selfish assholes that would rather kill somebody than wear a cloth over their face. In reality a lot of them are pissed because they have been told their businesses or jobs were no longer essential and many lost their source of income, can't care for their family, are at risk of losing their homes, etc. Their hatred of masks is secondary to all that but for some reason it gets brought to the forefront by disingenuous people that want to imply that all we are asking of them is to wear a mask when really what we are asking of them is to impoverish themselves. So are you saying there's some connection between people being impoverished by covid and people not wearing masks? What do you reckon the correlation is? Yes, I think so. People that aren't happy about having to impoverish themselves over COVID aren't going to be happy about wearing a mask. In general they believe people are too hysterical over COVID and wearing a mask is just offering more legitimacy to the hysteria. It's not even that ridiculous of a take, here's a poll from gallup that highlights how ridiculously off people's view of COVID is: https://twitter.com/TheEliKlein/status/1373408037692710914Republicans are more likely than Democrats to correctly identify the risk of being hospitalized with COVID-19. Nearly 70% of Democrats wildly overestimate it. You seem to be drawing alot of associations here. You think republicans are more clued up about covid, and are also less likely to wear a mask and more likely to have been made poor by covid? I live in a very poor area of the UK, and just like anywhere else over here, some people wear masks and some don't. I don't really get how being made poor by covid would affect mask wearing. To me its got more to do with whether or not someone cares about covid in general, and whether or not they give a shit about potentially spreading it. You seem to want to make this a partisan issue of republicans not wearing masks because they are smart and have lost money, but you could just as easily portray it as republicans not wearing masks because they are rude and don't care whether or not they are making people uncomfortable or ill. Do you really think that people that lost their businesses/jobs for not being "essential" are not more likely to be against masks/lockdowns than the average person? It's really easy to just say that people that oppose masks/lockdowns are just selfish assholes. You're right it's not a Republican/Democrat thing though since anti-lockdown/mask protestors aren't just in the US. I really don't understand why someone who lost their job will react by saying "Right then, I won't wear a mask." That also doesn't work with my personal experience of the issue. I know plenty of people who have lost their jobs. Most of them wear masks when out in public because they would feel like a bit of dick being in an enclosed space where everyone is wearing a mask except them. Others don't give a shit. I think assigning some other motive than not giving a shit is kinda weird to be honest. It isn't a protest at them having lost their jobs, its just that they don't give a shit about masks. The anti-mask 'movement' was present right from the very beginning of covid, before anyone had lost their jobs. It might be easy to say that not wearing a mask is the sign of a selfish asshole, but do you know what's easier than that? Wearing a mask. Of course, there might be a correlation where the causation is backwards. People who won't wear a mask could definitely be more likely to lose their jobs. When it comes to being anti-lockdown, I can see why it would be correlated with the financial consequences of the lockdown. That makes sense. On June 04 2021 06:41 farvacola wrote:On June 04 2021 05:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:51 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 05:22 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:21 BlackJack wrote:
The reason people talk about masks a lot is because it's easier to demonize the COVIDIOTS if you phrase them as selfish assholes that would rather kill somebody than wear a cloth over their face. In reality a lot of them are pissed because they have been told their businesses or jobs were no longer essential and many lost their source of income, can't care for their family, are at risk of losing their homes, etc. Their hatred of masks is secondary to all that but for some reason it gets brought to the forefront by disingenuous people that want to imply that all we are asking of them is to wear a mask when really what we are asking of them is to impoverish themselves. So are you saying there's some connection between people being impoverished by covid and people not wearing masks? What do you reckon the correlation is? Yes, I think so. People that aren't happy about having to impoverish themselves over COVID aren't going to be happy about wearing a mask. In general they believe people are too hysterical over COVID and wearing a mask is just offering more legitimacy to the hysteria. It's not even that ridiculous of a take, here's a poll from gallup that highlights how ridiculously off people's view of COVID is: https://twitter.com/TheEliKlein/status/1373408037692710914Republicans are more likely than Democrats to correctly identify the risk of being hospitalized with COVID-19. Nearly 70% of Democrats wildly overestimate it. You seem to be drawing alot of associations here. You think republicans are more clued up about covid, and are also less likely to wear a mask and more likely to have been made poor by covid? I live in a very poor area of the UK, and just like anywhere else over here, some people wear masks and some don't. I don't really get how being made poor by covid would affect mask wearing. To me its got more to do with whether or not someone cares about covid in general, and whether or not they give a shit about potentially spreading it. You seem to want to make this a partisan issue of republicans not wearing masks because they are smart and have lost money, but you could just as easily portray it as republicans not wearing masks because they are rude and don't care whether or not they are making people uncomfortable or ill. I would guess another significant variable that tends to figure into an individual’s “do I follow Covid rules” calculation is whether they are close with someone who has either died from Covid or suffered long term consequences. Yeah that makes sense. I can't imagine anyone who knows someone who died from covid would be happy not following the rules. You're not wrong. Pretty much nobody lost their business because of mask-wearing so there's no logical reason for why someone that lost their business wouldn't still be pro-mask. Nevertheless, the idea of mask-wearing is still coupled with the lockdowns so people tend to oppose either both or neither. If you're anti-lockdown then you don't want to give any legitimacy to the idea that "covid is dangerous and we need to take measures against it." Supporting mask wearing is supporting taking measures against COVID and that's just one step away from closing down businesses again. So even if you agree logically that you can be pro-mask while being anti-lockdown (where I tend to find myself actually) it still behooves you to be anti-mask and anti-lockdown so as to not concede even an inch to the other side. in my opinion this is very all or nothing for no good reason. one can recognize lockdowns as bad for business and still understand covid is a risk and needs measures taken against it. the argument should be about what measures, not whether there should be measures. playing the extremes has never behooved anyone. it doesn’t take even remotely bright minds to understand life is full of gray areas, so i don’t buy this at all.
Right, that's where some middle ground should be drawn, but if you're trying to negotiate for businesses you shouldn't start at that middle ground. The compromise is going to get drawn somewhere in between and you have to advocate for your side as strongly as possible.
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On June 04 2021 08:13 BlackJack wrote:
When I think of COVIDIOTS I tend to think of the Upton Sinclar quote, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." Being a COVIDIOT isn't just about being stupid. It's a survival mechanism for some of them. Their livelihood depends on their brain telling them COVID isn't real.
That doesn't explain why denialism and lack of adherence to the precautions is widespread in countries which had a proper safety net. People in the UK were eligible for the furlough scheme if they couldn't work during the lockdown. The government paid 80% of their pre-lockdown income, IIRC, and many businesses topped it up to 100%. But I do agree that some people are in denial for the reason you're describing. It's easier to fool yourself into thinking you're some freedom fighter than accept that you're risking other people's lives to protect your livelihood.
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On June 04 2021 08:30 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 08:11 brian wrote:On June 04 2021 07:53 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 07:00 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 06:50 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 05:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:51 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 05:22 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:21 BlackJack wrote:
The reason people talk about masks a lot is because it's easier to demonize the COVIDIOTS if you phrase them as selfish assholes that would rather kill somebody than wear a cloth over their face. In reality a lot of them are pissed because they have been told their businesses or jobs were no longer essential and many lost their source of income, can't care for their family, are at risk of losing their homes, etc. Their hatred of masks is secondary to all that but for some reason it gets brought to the forefront by disingenuous people that want to imply that all we are asking of them is to wear a mask when really what we are asking of them is to impoverish themselves. So are you saying there's some connection between people being impoverished by covid and people not wearing masks? What do you reckon the correlation is? Yes, I think so. People that aren't happy about having to impoverish themselves over COVID aren't going to be happy about wearing a mask. In general they believe people are too hysterical over COVID and wearing a mask is just offering more legitimacy to the hysteria. It's not even that ridiculous of a take, here's a poll from gallup that highlights how ridiculously off people's view of COVID is: https://twitter.com/TheEliKlein/status/1373408037692710914Republicans are more likely than Democrats to correctly identify the risk of being hospitalized with COVID-19. Nearly 70% of Democrats wildly overestimate it. You seem to be drawing alot of associations here. You think republicans are more clued up about covid, and are also less likely to wear a mask and more likely to have been made poor by covid? I live in a very poor area of the UK, and just like anywhere else over here, some people wear masks and some don't. I don't really get how being made poor by covid would affect mask wearing. To me its got more to do with whether or not someone cares about covid in general, and whether or not they give a shit about potentially spreading it. You seem to want to make this a partisan issue of republicans not wearing masks because they are smart and have lost money, but you could just as easily portray it as republicans not wearing masks because they are rude and don't care whether or not they are making people uncomfortable or ill. Do you really think that people that lost their businesses/jobs for not being "essential" are not more likely to be against masks/lockdowns than the average person? It's really easy to just say that people that oppose masks/lockdowns are just selfish assholes. You're right it's not a Republican/Democrat thing though since anti-lockdown/mask protestors aren't just in the US. I really don't understand why someone who lost their job will react by saying "Right then, I won't wear a mask." That also doesn't work with my personal experience of the issue. I know plenty of people who have lost their jobs. Most of them wear masks when out in public because they would feel like a bit of dick being in an enclosed space where everyone is wearing a mask except them. Others don't give a shit. I think assigning some other motive than not giving a shit is kinda weird to be honest. It isn't a protest at them having lost their jobs, its just that they don't give a shit about masks. The anti-mask 'movement' was present right from the very beginning of covid, before anyone had lost their jobs. It might be easy to say that not wearing a mask is the sign of a selfish asshole, but do you know what's easier than that? Wearing a mask. Of course, there might be a correlation where the causation is backwards. People who won't wear a mask could definitely be more likely to lose their jobs. When it comes to being anti-lockdown, I can see why it would be correlated with the financial consequences of the lockdown. That makes sense. On June 04 2021 06:41 farvacola wrote:On June 04 2021 05:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:51 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 05:22 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2021 05:21 BlackJack wrote:
The reason people talk about masks a lot is because it's easier to demonize the COVIDIOTS if you phrase them as selfish assholes that would rather kill somebody than wear a cloth over their face. In reality a lot of them are pissed because they have been told their businesses or jobs were no longer essential and many lost their source of income, can't care for their family, are at risk of losing their homes, etc. Their hatred of masks is secondary to all that but for some reason it gets brought to the forefront by disingenuous people that want to imply that all we are asking of them is to wear a mask when really what we are asking of them is to impoverish themselves. So are you saying there's some connection between people being impoverished by covid and people not wearing masks? What do you reckon the correlation is? Yes, I think so. People that aren't happy about having to impoverish themselves over COVID aren't going to be happy about wearing a mask. In general they believe people are too hysterical over COVID and wearing a mask is just offering more legitimacy to the hysteria. It's not even that ridiculous of a take, here's a poll from gallup that highlights how ridiculously off people's view of COVID is: https://twitter.com/TheEliKlein/status/1373408037692710914Republicans are more likely than Democrats to correctly identify the risk of being hospitalized with COVID-19. Nearly 70% of Democrats wildly overestimate it. You seem to be drawing alot of associations here. You think republicans are more clued up about covid, and are also less likely to wear a mask and more likely to have been made poor by covid? I live in a very poor area of the UK, and just like anywhere else over here, some people wear masks and some don't. I don't really get how being made poor by covid would affect mask wearing. To me its got more to do with whether or not someone cares about covid in general, and whether or not they give a shit about potentially spreading it. You seem to want to make this a partisan issue of republicans not wearing masks because they are smart and have lost money, but you could just as easily portray it as republicans not wearing masks because they are rude and don't care whether or not they are making people uncomfortable or ill. I would guess another significant variable that tends to figure into an individual’s “do I follow Covid rules” calculation is whether they are close with someone who has either died from Covid or suffered long term consequences. Yeah that makes sense. I can't imagine anyone who knows someone who died from covid would be happy not following the rules. You're not wrong. Pretty much nobody lost their business because of mask-wearing so there's no logical reason for why someone that lost their business wouldn't still be pro-mask. Nevertheless, the idea of mask-wearing is still coupled with the lockdowns so people tend to oppose either both or neither. If you're anti-lockdown then you don't want to give any legitimacy to the idea that "covid is dangerous and we need to take measures against it." Supporting mask wearing is supporting taking measures against COVID and that's just one step away from closing down businesses again. So even if you agree logically that you can be pro-mask while being anti-lockdown (where I tend to find myself actually) it still behooves you to be anti-mask and anti-lockdown so as to not concede even an inch to the other side. in my opinion this is very all or nothing for no good reason. one can recognize lockdowns as bad for business and still understand covid is a risk and needs measures taken against it. the argument should be about what measures, not whether there should be measures. playing the extremes has never behooved anyone. it doesn’t take even remotely bright minds to understand life is full of gray areas, so i don’t buy this at all. Right, that's where some middle ground should be drawn, but if you're trying to negotiate for businesses you shouldn't start at that middle ground. The compromise is going to get drawn somewhere in between and you have to advocate for your side as strongly as possible.
business aren’t taking pandemic hostages to stay open. i might be under a rock here, but i’m not aware of a single small business owner who is a mask denier as a negotiation tactic.
i have to apologize, but i’m going to just leave this here as i don’t personally think i’m adding anything new or yet to be conceived to the conversation.
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Another interesting thing about masks/business is that in general, states that did not use aggressive shutdown tactics suffered similarly economically. The take away from that is that people were doing what they felt was safe rather than relying on government recommendations. Florida bars being open doesn't mean I am any more likely to go to a bar if I don't think it's safe.
I exclusively got delivered groceries early in the pandemic because we had no idea how infection it was. Once masks became mandatory in public, I didn't feel concerned going to Costco myself. My wife and I cut EVERYTHING non-essential for the 15 months we weren't vaccinated and it feels good to go all over the place tipping people 30% since we're happy we can eat out again lol
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On June 04 2021 12:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Another interesting thing about masks/business is that in general, states that did not use aggressive shutdown tactics suffered similarly economically. The take away from that is that people were doing what they felt was safe rather than relying on government recommendations. Florida bars being open doesn't mean I am any more likely to go to a bar if I don't think it's safe.
Two of the most opposite approaches are from my old state (Florida) and my new state (California). Florida was one of the most lax on their COVID restrictions and California was one of the most stringent. California now has the worst unemployment rate in the country (sans Hawaii), our governor is facing a recall election, and we're still not even fully open. Florida's governor has rising approval ratings and is now frequently talked about as a frontrunner for the next Presidential election. According to WorldoMeters California stands at 1,602 deaths per MM and Florida is at 1,721.
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On June 04 2021 19:16 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 12:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Another interesting thing about masks/business is that in general, states that did not use aggressive shutdown tactics suffered similarly economically. The take away from that is that people were doing what they felt was safe rather than relying on government recommendations. Florida bars being open doesn't mean I am any more likely to go to a bar if I don't think it's safe.
Two of the most opposite approaches are from my old state (Florida) and my new state (California). Florida was one of the most lax on their COVID restrictions and California was one of the most stringent. California now has the worst unemployment rate in the country (sans Hawaii), our governor is facing a recall election, and we're still not even fully open. Florida's governor has rising approval ratings and is now frequently talked about as a frontrunner for the next Presidential election. According to WorldoMeters California stands at 1,602 deaths per MM and Florida is at 1,721.
What's the difference in population density?
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On June 04 2021 19:16 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 12:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Another interesting thing about masks/business is that in general, states that did not use aggressive shutdown tactics suffered similarly economically. The take away from that is that people were doing what they felt was safe rather than relying on government recommendations. Florida bars being open doesn't mean I am any more likely to go to a bar if I don't think it's safe.
Two of the most opposite approaches are from my old state (Florida) and my new state (California). Florida was one of the most lax on their COVID restrictions and California was one of the most stringent. California now has the worst unemployment rate in the country (sans Hawaii), our governor is facing a recall election, and we're still not even fully open. Florida's governor has rising approval ratings and is now frequently talked about as a frontrunner for the next Presidential election. According to WorldoMeters California stands at 1,602 deaths per MM and Florida is at 1,721.
Do you put any value in Florida's numbers when the governor sent a police raid onto a whistleblower? I'd wait for excess death statistics before you take any victory laps on that one.
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On June 04 2021 19:16 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 12:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Another interesting thing about masks/business is that in general, states that did not use aggressive shutdown tactics suffered similarly economically. The take away from that is that people were doing what they felt was safe rather than relying on government recommendations. Florida bars being open doesn't mean I am any more likely to go to a bar if I don't think it's safe.
Two of the most opposite approaches are from my old state (Florida) and my new state (California). Florida was one of the most lax on their COVID restrictions and California was one of the most stringent. California now has the worst unemployment rate in the country (sans Hawaii), our governor is facing a recall election, and we're still not even fully open. Florida's governor has rising approval ratings and is now frequently talked about as a frontrunner for the next Presidential election. According to WorldoMeters California stands at 1,602 deaths per MM and Florida is at 1,721.
I don’t think we’ll ever know Florida’s real numbers. Reporting and other dynamics are so varied it kind of doesn’t make sense to compare anyway. As an example, look at Vermont as an example of a state that basically avoided covid lol. They weren’t huge geniuses. Vermont had 408 deaths per M.
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
On June 04 2021 22:30 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 19:16 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 12:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Another interesting thing about masks/business is that in general, states that did not use aggressive shutdown tactics suffered similarly economically. The take away from that is that people were doing what they felt was safe rather than relying on government recommendations. Florida bars being open doesn't mean I am any more likely to go to a bar if I don't think it's safe.
Two of the most opposite approaches are from my old state (Florida) and my new state (California). Florida was one of the most lax on their COVID restrictions and California was one of the most stringent. California now has the worst unemployment rate in the country (sans Hawaii), our governor is facing a recall election, and we're still not even fully open. Florida's governor has rising approval ratings and is now frequently talked about as a frontrunner for the next Presidential election. According to WorldoMeters California stands at 1,602 deaths per MM and Florida is at 1,721. I don’t think we’ll ever know Florida’s real numbers. Reporting and other dynamics are so varied it kind of doesn’t make sense to compare anyway. As an example, look at Vermont as an example of a state that basically avoided covid lol. They weren’t huge geniuses.
Florida business restrictions were just as good as anywhere else. I rarely saw someone without a mask prior to the vaccine being released. All stores required masks for entry. Ron D. didn't say don't follow precautions, he just said Florida won't enforce it with fines. On the other hand, a co-worker of mine from San Diego said everyone back home threw anti-mask / f-u governor parties and would have large gatherings. My boss said every time she had to fly to Seattle she'd see more people without masks then with masks. But Floridians for the most part, took it very seriously.
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On June 04 2021 22:42 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 22:30 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2021 19:16 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 12:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Another interesting thing about masks/business is that in general, states that did not use aggressive shutdown tactics suffered similarly economically. The take away from that is that people were doing what they felt was safe rather than relying on government recommendations. Florida bars being open doesn't mean I am any more likely to go to a bar if I don't think it's safe.
Two of the most opposite approaches are from my old state (Florida) and my new state (California). Florida was one of the most lax on their COVID restrictions and California was one of the most stringent. California now has the worst unemployment rate in the country (sans Hawaii), our governor is facing a recall election, and we're still not even fully open. Florida's governor has rising approval ratings and is now frequently talked about as a frontrunner for the next Presidential election. According to WorldoMeters California stands at 1,602 deaths per MM and Florida is at 1,721. I don’t think we’ll ever know Florida’s real numbers. Reporting and other dynamics are so varied it kind of doesn’t make sense to compare anyway. As an example, look at Vermont as an example of a state that basically avoided covid lol. They weren’t huge geniuses. Florida business restrictions were just as good as anywhere else. I rarely saw someone without a mask prior to the vaccine being released. All stores required masks for entry. Ron D. didn't say don't follow precautions, he just said Florida won't enforce it with fines. On the other hand, a co-worker of mine from San Diego said everyone back home through anti-mask / f-u governor parties and would have large gatherings. My boss said every time she had to fly to Seattle she'd see more people without masks then with masks. But Floridians for the most part, took it very seriously.
Being in the area, I can say with 1000000000% confidence your boss was lying. If Floridians took covid seriously, it shouldn't be surprising they didn't do terribly.
Edit: I think the real take away is that people didn’t do things because the government asked them to. People did what they themselves thought was safe. In some Oregon towns with only like 500 people, we have had over 100 cases because these rural dummies don’t think it’s real. This is in Oregon with some of the strictest rules. Other educated counties did REALLY well.
During covid people chose for themselves. Whether you are Floridian or Oregonian, you did what you thought was best.
What is more interesting to see is how covid varied by county. That paints a very different picture than state by state
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
On June 04 2021 22:44 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 22:42 BisuDagger wrote:On June 04 2021 22:30 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2021 19:16 BlackJack wrote:On June 04 2021 12:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Another interesting thing about masks/business is that in general, states that did not use aggressive shutdown tactics suffered similarly economically. The take away from that is that people were doing what they felt was safe rather than relying on government recommendations. Florida bars being open doesn't mean I am any more likely to go to a bar if I don't think it's safe.
Two of the most opposite approaches are from my old state (Florida) and my new state (California). Florida was one of the most lax on their COVID restrictions and California was one of the most stringent. California now has the worst unemployment rate in the country (sans Hawaii), our governor is facing a recall election, and we're still not even fully open. Florida's governor has rising approval ratings and is now frequently talked about as a frontrunner for the next Presidential election. According to WorldoMeters California stands at 1,602 deaths per MM and Florida is at 1,721. I don’t think we’ll ever know Florida’s real numbers. Reporting and other dynamics are so varied it kind of doesn’t make sense to compare anyway. As an example, look at Vermont as an example of a state that basically avoided covid lol. They weren’t huge geniuses. Florida business restrictions were just as good as anywhere else. I rarely saw someone without a mask prior to the vaccine being released. All stores required masks for entry. Ron D. didn't say don't follow precautions, he just said Florida won't enforce it with fines. On the other hand, a co-worker of mine from San Diego said everyone back home through anti-mask / f-u governor parties and would have large gatherings. My boss said every time she had to fly to Seattle she'd see more people without masks then with masks. But Floridians for the most part, took it very seriously. Being in the area, I can say with 1000000000% confidence your boss was lying. If Floridians took covid seriously, it shouldn't be surprising they didn't do terribly. Edit: I think the real take away is that people didn’t do things because the government asked them to. People did what they themselves thought was safe. In some Oregon towns with only like 500 people, we have had over 100 cases because these rural dummies don’t think it’s real. This is in Oregon with some of the strictest rules. Other educated counties did REALLY well. During covid people chose for themselves. Whether you are Floridian or Oregonian, you did what you thought was best. What is more interesting to see is how covid varied by county. That paints a very different picture than state by state
Let me rephrase, she'd see more people without masks in indoor spaces then she would in Florida. My point regardless, was that people want to make an example of Ron for being too relaxed, and I think there are definitely cases where he was too relaxed, but overall it he really had no impact on my county of residence (and others I have family in) because we took it upon ourselves to take it more seriously. I 100% agree with you about looking at it by county instead of state. Duval Struggled way more then Clay County county. Dade County (Miami City) suffered greatly and even the smaller county of Alachua (Gainesville City-College Town) did far worse.
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