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We are already past the point of it getting multiple people killed. We are past the point of it encouraging an insurrection even. All I can remain hopeful on is that it fails at getting a successful coup of the government by far right racists
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On June 02 2021 01:53 Nevuk wrote:
Trump has been telling people he'll be reinstated as president by August. This is why you don't let dictatorial strong men with extreme narcissistic personality disorder on top of delusions off without punishment : they're never going to accept reality, ever, and will keep trying until they're stopped.
per Haberman
Additionally, Flynn is calling for a military coup and Sydney Powell is backing it up. People are apparently telling reporters not to even report on this sort of thing, which I honestly think is probably the right approach if people would follow it. But they won't, so we have to deal with insane(r) claims .
This is the kind of fucking shit anyone should see coming a mile away when a batch of insane fascists instigate an armed insurrection and face fuck all real consequences for it. I am still deeply baffled and enraged that Jan 6th happened and was as close to brushed off as humanly fuckin' possible.
Lord have mercy.
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On June 02 2021 06:10 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2021 01:53 Nevuk wrote:Trump has been telling people he'll be reinstated as president by August. This is why you don't let dictatorial strong men with extreme narcissistic personality disorder on top of delusions off without punishment : they're never going to accept reality, ever, and will keep trying until they're stopped. per Haberman https://twitter.com/maggieNYT/status/1399707794375426051Additionally, Flynn is calling for a military coup and Sydney Powell is backing it up. People are apparently telling reporters not to even report on this sort of thing, which I honestly think is probably the right approach if people would follow it. But they won't, so we have to deal with insane(r) claims . This is the kind of fucking shit anyone should see coming a mile away when a batch of insane fascists instigate an armed insurrection and face fuck all real consequences for it. I am still deeply baffled and enraged that Jan 6th happened and was as close to brushed off as humanly fuckin' possible. Lord have mercy.
All I can do is laugh at the US at this point. As much as I love this country, I can't fucking stand the stupidity that infests it and manifests throughout all levels of it. We're more less making V for Vendetta a true story. Idiocracy is now the reality we live in.
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Don't worry guys, Americans have moved on.
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Well, recent polling still shows like 50%+ republican voters believe the election was stolen and that Biden is an illegitimate president. I can dig up the article, but the numbers haven't really shifted since the election. Basically, this problem isn't going away any time soon.
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I don't actually believe Trump voters when they say things like that. Deep down most of them are aware that it is all lies, but it is lies about things they want to be true. The people truly deceived I feel sorry for, but these lies are so paper thin that there's no way most of them fell for them due to being gullible.
If they actually believed in Trump as strongly as they say they do then they wouldn't be a problem anymore. All of them would've drunk bleach a year ago. Instead it was some barely noticeable blip.
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On June 02 2021 08:06 Nevuk wrote:
I don't actually believe Trump voters when they say things like that. Deep down most of them are aware that it is all lies, but it is lies about things they want to be true. The people truly deceived I feel sorry for, but these lies are so paper thin that there's no way most of them fell for them due to being gullible.
If they actually believed in Trump as strongly as they say they do then they wouldn't be a problem anymore. All of them would've drunk bleach a year ago. Instead it was some barely noticeable blip.
We all tell ourselves they don't actually believe it and that such beliefs are mostly harmless, and then a mob storms the capitol with the intent of overturning the election and nothing short of dumb luck stops them from actually getting to any congressmen to lynch.
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On June 02 2021 04:35 KwarK wrote:
Any potential actions taken that would have been effective at preventing a pandemic would have been decried as alarmist, unnecessary, and excessive by the people not dying. Successful preventative policy is always unpopular because it cannot be evaluated based on the hypothetical catastrophe avoided. Even after millions of deaths people are still angry about the lockdowns. The idea that the populist democracies of the west would have made informed proactive choices had they only been informed earlier is laughable. I’d say they needed the disaster in order to learn but that implies they’re capable of learning. Sound strategic planning is not a strength of populism.
Yup. In the primaries last month we had to vote on whether or not to make a change to the state constitution that the governor couldn't declare a state of emergency longer than 3 weeks and couldn't extend or create and identical declaration after without state congress' approval.
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On June 02 2021 08:31 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2021 08:06 Nevuk wrote:
I don't actually believe Trump voters when they say things like that. Deep down most of them are aware that it is all lies, but it is lies about things they want to be true. The people truly deceived I feel sorry for, but these lies are so paper thin that there's no way most of them fell for them due to being gullible.
If they actually believed in Trump as strongly as they say they do then they wouldn't be a problem anymore. All of them would've drunk bleach a year ago. Instead it was some barely noticeable blip.
We all tell ourselves they don't actually believe it and that such beliefs are mostly harmless, and then a mob storms the capitol with the intent of overturning the election and nothing short of dumb luck stops them from actually getting to any congressmen to lynch.
Oh, them not really believing the craziest shit they spout doesn't mean they aren't super dangerous.
The people leading and organizing this were basically Hitler's brown shirts, but somehow even more racist. (And were defended vociferously by the republicans in this thread despite their insane rhetoric and self-acknowledged history of violent attacks, months before this coup attempt).
What I'm suggesting is to me, a lot more damning than them doing it because they believe it: They are doing it because they wanted to install Trump as a dictator. (In most cases, the leaders wanted him to be a dictator of a whites-only theocratic state).
They marched on the capital over a super obvious lie because they thought it was a no-risk move (they thought Trump was going to come with them to take over the capital. Honestly, from what I can make of the timeline, if he had gone with them then yes, it almost certainly would've worked - enough of the capitol police were sympathetic to him to open barricades, even when he wasn't there).
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On June 02 2021 03:22 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2021 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2021 19:39 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 01 2021 19:16 Slydie wrote:On June 01 2021 17:17 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 01 2021 10:45 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2021 03:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 31 2021 23:58 Mohdoo wrote:On May 31 2021 03:55 raga4ka wrote:On May 31 2021 03:15 Mohdoo wrote:
In order for China to have handled this remotely respectfully, they would have needed to inform other countries many months earlier than they did. And they would have needed to not suppress information. And they would have have needed to give 5000000% access to all their labs. China handled this shamefully. How many months earlier? Information about the new disease only started popping up in December 2019, maybe late November, I'm not a 100% sure, but there were only a few cases at the time being reported in the media, did China even have any detailed information at that point? Just to be clear, you are citing information from China. I don’t think that information is correct. Lots of witnesses say hospitals knew something was up much earlier. Are you suggesting that China saying "something was up much earlier" than we know they did would have made some substantive difference for the US? I encourage you to read about infection models and to play with tools that let you model infections over time. Minor differences can have gargantuan implications. The US isn't the only important country to me. Lots of countries simply did not have the capability to deal with a pandemic. There is an amazing amount of blood on China's hands and not all of it is American. Most of it isn't and those people deserve justice too. Out of curiosity, which countries do you think would have responded sooner if China had given warning at the time of the first infections? The Asia ones who had to do with SARS would have reacted even more quickly and effectively. Maybe it would even have been enough to contain it within China. Considering how contagious it is, it is unlikely it would have been contained in China even with early warning -- remember that in the beginning we knew absolutely nothing and the emphasis was on washing hands, not transmission through air droplets. It doesn't need to be 100% contained. Even just 10% reduction in transmission early on, where it still goes all the same places, makes a huge difference when you are essentially racing against a vaccine. We could have done even better than that with communication alone. Sure, a limited initial spread would have delayed the first wave. However, the whole scientific community does not start working on a vaccine unless there is a first wave, so the vaccine is also delayed. We certainly could have done better, but early warning from China would change things very little is what I'm saying here. You'd still have the same doofus going on tv saying that it's just a flu and that it'll go away in april.
This is flat out mathematically not true. If you do not have background in infection models, I don't know what to say. This is very, very well understood and not really a point of contention. People being dumb in April can still be true, that's not how infection works. Its not like it catches up or something. We never hit anywhere close to maximum levels of infection.
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On June 02 2021 13:56 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2021 03:22 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 02 2021 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2021 19:39 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 01 2021 19:16 Slydie wrote:On June 01 2021 17:17 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 01 2021 10:45 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2021 03:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 31 2021 23:58 Mohdoo wrote:On May 31 2021 03:55 raga4ka wrote:
[quote]
How many months earlier? Information about the new disease only started popping up in December 2019, maybe late November, I'm not a 100% sure, but there were only a few cases at the time being reported in the media, did China even have any detailed information at that point? Just to be clear, you are citing information from China. I don’t think that information is correct. Lots of witnesses say hospitals knew something was up much earlier. Are you suggesting that China saying "something was up much earlier" than we know they did would have made some substantive difference for the US? I encourage you to read about infection models and to play with tools that let you model infections over time. Minor differences can have gargantuan implications. The US isn't the only important country to me. Lots of countries simply did not have the capability to deal with a pandemic. There is an amazing amount of blood on China's hands and not all of it is American. Most of it isn't and those people deserve justice too. Out of curiosity, which countries do you think would have responded sooner if China had given warning at the time of the first infections? The Asia ones who had to do with SARS would have reacted even more quickly and effectively. Maybe it would even have been enough to contain it within China. Considering how contagious it is, it is unlikely it would have been contained in China even with early warning -- remember that in the beginning we knew absolutely nothing and the emphasis was on washing hands, not transmission through air droplets. It doesn't need to be 100% contained. Even just 10% reduction in transmission early on, where it still goes all the same places, makes a huge difference when you are essentially racing against a vaccine. We could have done even better than that with communication alone. Sure, a limited initial spread would have delayed the first wave. However, the whole scientific community does not start working on a vaccine unless there is a first wave, so the vaccine is also delayed. We certainly could have done better, but early warning from China would change things very little is what I'm saying here. You'd still have the same doofus going on tv saying that it's just a flu and that it'll go away in april. This is flat out mathematically not true. If you do not have background in infection models, I don't know what to say. This is very, very well understood and not really a point of contention. People being dumb in April can still be true, that's not how infection works. Its not like it catches up or something. We never hit anywhere close to maximum levels of infection.
Well, thanks for that Mohdoo, I am in fact aware of how exponential functions work. The point of contention is that early warning wouldn't make a big difference because most governments had early warning and they still did fuck all to stop it, i.e. lack of early warning is not the reason most of the world did badly against covid.
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On June 02 2021 13:56 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2021 03:22 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 02 2021 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2021 19:39 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 01 2021 19:16 Slydie wrote:On June 01 2021 17:17 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 01 2021 10:45 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2021 03:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 31 2021 23:58 Mohdoo wrote:On May 31 2021 03:55 raga4ka wrote:
[quote]
How many months earlier? Information about the new disease only started popping up in December 2019, maybe late November, I'm not a 100% sure, but there were only a few cases at the time being reported in the media, did China even have any detailed information at that point? Just to be clear, you are citing information from China. I don’t think that information is correct. Lots of witnesses say hospitals knew something was up much earlier. Are you suggesting that China saying "something was up much earlier" than we know they did would have made some substantive difference for the US? I encourage you to read about infection models and to play with tools that let you model infections over time. Minor differences can have gargantuan implications. The US isn't the only important country to me. Lots of countries simply did not have the capability to deal with a pandemic. There is an amazing amount of blood on China's hands and not all of it is American. Most of it isn't and those people deserve justice too. Out of curiosity, which countries do you think would have responded sooner if China had given warning at the time of the first infections? The Asia ones who had to do with SARS would have reacted even more quickly and effectively. Maybe it would even have been enough to contain it within China. Considering how contagious it is, it is unlikely it would have been contained in China even with early warning -- remember that in the beginning we knew absolutely nothing and the emphasis was on washing hands, not transmission through air droplets. It doesn't need to be 100% contained. Even just 10% reduction in transmission early on, where it still goes all the same places, makes a huge difference when you are essentially racing against a vaccine. We could have done even better than that with communication alone. Sure, a limited initial spread would have delayed the first wave. However, the whole scientific community does not start working on a vaccine unless there is a first wave, so the vaccine is also delayed. We certainly could have done better, but early warning from China would change things very little is what I'm saying here. You'd still have the same doofus going on tv saying that it's just a flu and that it'll go away in april. This is flat out mathematically not true. If you do not have background in infection models, I don't know what to say. This is very, very well understood and not really a point of contention. People being dumb in April can still be true, that's not how infection works. Its not like it catches up or something. We never hit anywhere close to maximum levels of infection. What matters is the moment where governments started to react. Very little, if anything, happened after China's warning. Moving that warning earlier still means nothing happens
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Meanwhile in rural California:www.theguardian.com
The region has long been one of the most forceful in its pushback against measures such as masks, business restrictions and vaccine mandates – and the protests have only continued to gain steam. A cafe in the town of Mendocino made headlines after announcing it will charge customers a $5 fee if they order while wearing a mask. It also threatened to charge $5 to anyone “caught bragging about your vaccine”.
... He also offered a 50% discount to customers who threw their masks in the trash...
They're not the only region with low vaccine rates and open disregard for social distancing rules. I wonder what it'll take for everyone to realize that the only way things go back to normal is if everyone (90%+ in the population) gets vaccinated and masks become a regular life feature.
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On June 02 2021 16:41 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2021 13:56 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2021 03:22 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 02 2021 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2021 19:39 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 01 2021 19:16 Slydie wrote:On June 01 2021 17:17 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 01 2021 10:45 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2021 03:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 31 2021 23:58 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
Just to be clear, you are citing information from China. I don’t think that information is correct. Lots of witnesses say hospitals knew something was up much earlier. Are you suggesting that China saying "something was up much earlier" than we know they did would have made some substantive difference for the US? I encourage you to read about infection models and to play with tools that let you model infections over time. Minor differences can have gargantuan implications. The US isn't the only important country to me. Lots of countries simply did not have the capability to deal with a pandemic. There is an amazing amount of blood on China's hands and not all of it is American. Most of it isn't and those people deserve justice too. Out of curiosity, which countries do you think would have responded sooner if China had given warning at the time of the first infections? The Asia ones who had to do with SARS would have reacted even more quickly and effectively. Maybe it would even have been enough to contain it within China. Considering how contagious it is, it is unlikely it would have been contained in China even with early warning -- remember that in the beginning we knew absolutely nothing and the emphasis was on washing hands, not transmission through air droplets. It doesn't need to be 100% contained. Even just 10% reduction in transmission early on, where it still goes all the same places, makes a huge difference when you are essentially racing against a vaccine. We could have done even better than that with communication alone. Sure, a limited initial spread would have delayed the first wave. However, the whole scientific community does not start working on a vaccine unless there is a first wave, so the vaccine is also delayed. We certainly could have done better, but early warning from China would change things very little is what I'm saying here. You'd still have the same doofus going on tv saying that it's just a flu and that it'll go away in april. This is flat out mathematically not true. If you do not have background in infection models, I don't know what to say. This is very, very well understood and not really a point of contention. People being dumb in April can still be true, that's not how infection works. Its not like it catches up or something. We never hit anywhere close to maximum levels of infection. Well, thanks for that Mohdoo, I am in fact aware of how exponential functions work. The point of contention is that early warning wouldn't make a big difference because most governments had early warning and they still did fuck all to stop it, i.e. lack of early warning is not the reason most of the world did badly against covid.
No one is disputing everyone would still mess it up. What I am saying is that if everyone did just as terribly as they did, but the situation started out ~10% better, an enormous amount of lives would have been saved.
On June 02 2021 16:58 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2021 13:56 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2021 03:22 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 02 2021 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2021 19:39 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 01 2021 19:16 Slydie wrote:On June 01 2021 17:17 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 01 2021 10:45 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2021 03:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 31 2021 23:58 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
Just to be clear, you are citing information from China. I don’t think that information is correct. Lots of witnesses say hospitals knew something was up much earlier. Are you suggesting that China saying "something was up much earlier" than we know they did would have made some substantive difference for the US? I encourage you to read about infection models and to play with tools that let you model infections over time. Minor differences can have gargantuan implications. The US isn't the only important country to me. Lots of countries simply did not have the capability to deal with a pandemic. There is an amazing amount of blood on China's hands and not all of it is American. Most of it isn't and those people deserve justice too. Out of curiosity, which countries do you think would have responded sooner if China had given warning at the time of the first infections? The Asia ones who had to do with SARS would have reacted even more quickly and effectively. Maybe it would even have been enough to contain it within China. Considering how contagious it is, it is unlikely it would have been contained in China even with early warning -- remember that in the beginning we knew absolutely nothing and the emphasis was on washing hands, not transmission through air droplets. It doesn't need to be 100% contained. Even just 10% reduction in transmission early on, where it still goes all the same places, makes a huge difference when you are essentially racing against a vaccine. We could have done even better than that with communication alone. Sure, a limited initial spread would have delayed the first wave. However, the whole scientific community does not start working on a vaccine unless there is a first wave, so the vaccine is also delayed. We certainly could have done better, but early warning from China would change things very little is what I'm saying here. You'd still have the same doofus going on tv saying that it's just a flu and that it'll go away in april. This is flat out mathematically not true. If you do not have background in infection models, I don't know what to say. This is very, very well understood and not really a point of contention. People being dumb in April can still be true, that's not how infection works. Its not like it catches up or something. We never hit anywhere close to maximum levels of infection. What matters is the moment where governments started to react. Very little, if anything, happened after China's warning. Moving that warning earlier still means nothing happens
Earlier warnings *and* measures to limit spread are what China needed to do. China prioritized saving face over limiting infection, which is why tons and tons of people were flying all over the place before anything happened.
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On June 03 2021 00:40 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2021 16:41 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 02 2021 13:56 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2021 03:22 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 02 2021 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2021 19:39 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 01 2021 19:16 Slydie wrote:On June 01 2021 17:17 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 01 2021 10:45 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2021 03:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Are you suggesting that China saying "something was up much earlier" than we know they did would have made some substantive difference for the US? I encourage you to read about infection models and to play with tools that let you model infections over time. Minor differences can have gargantuan implications. The US isn't the only important country to me. Lots of countries simply did not have the capability to deal with a pandemic. There is an amazing amount of blood on China's hands and not all of it is American. Most of it isn't and those people deserve justice too. Out of curiosity, which countries do you think would have responded sooner if China had given warning at the time of the first infections? The Asia ones who had to do with SARS would have reacted even more quickly and effectively. Maybe it would even have been enough to contain it within China. Considering how contagious it is, it is unlikely it would have been contained in China even with early warning -- remember that in the beginning we knew absolutely nothing and the emphasis was on washing hands, not transmission through air droplets. It doesn't need to be 100% contained. Even just 10% reduction in transmission early on, where it still goes all the same places, makes a huge difference when you are essentially racing against a vaccine. We could have done even better than that with communication alone. Sure, a limited initial spread would have delayed the first wave. However, the whole scientific community does not start working on a vaccine unless there is a first wave, so the vaccine is also delayed. We certainly could have done better, but early warning from China would change things very little is what I'm saying here. You'd still have the same doofus going on tv saying that it's just a flu and that it'll go away in april. This is flat out mathematically not true. If you do not have background in infection models, I don't know what to say. This is very, very well understood and not really a point of contention. People being dumb in April can still be true, that's not how infection works. Its not like it catches up or something. We never hit anywhere close to maximum levels of infection. Well, thanks for that Mohdoo, I am in fact aware of how exponential functions work. The point of contention is that early warning wouldn't make a big difference because most governments had early warning and they still did fuck all to stop it, i.e. lack of early warning is not the reason most of the world did badly against covid. No one is disputing everyone would still mess it up. What I am saying is that if everyone did just as terribly as they did, but the situation started out ~10% better, an enormous amount of lives would have been saved. Show nested quote +On June 02 2021 16:58 Gorsameth wrote:On June 02 2021 13:56 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2021 03:22 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 02 2021 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2021 19:39 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 01 2021 19:16 Slydie wrote:On June 01 2021 17:17 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 01 2021 10:45 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2021 03:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Are you suggesting that China saying "something was up much earlier" than we know they did would have made some substantive difference for the US? I encourage you to read about infection models and to play with tools that let you model infections over time. Minor differences can have gargantuan implications. The US isn't the only important country to me. Lots of countries simply did not have the capability to deal with a pandemic. There is an amazing amount of blood on China's hands and not all of it is American. Most of it isn't and those people deserve justice too. Out of curiosity, which countries do you think would have responded sooner if China had given warning at the time of the first infections? The Asia ones who had to do with SARS would have reacted even more quickly and effectively. Maybe it would even have been enough to contain it within China. Considering how contagious it is, it is unlikely it would have been contained in China even with early warning -- remember that in the beginning we knew absolutely nothing and the emphasis was on washing hands, not transmission through air droplets. It doesn't need to be 100% contained. Even just 10% reduction in transmission early on, where it still goes all the same places, makes a huge difference when you are essentially racing against a vaccine. We could have done even better than that with communication alone. Sure, a limited initial spread would have delayed the first wave. However, the whole scientific community does not start working on a vaccine unless there is a first wave, so the vaccine is also delayed. We certainly could have done better, but early warning from China would change things very little is what I'm saying here. You'd still have the same doofus going on tv saying that it's just a flu and that it'll go away in april. This is flat out mathematically not true. If you do not have background in infection models, I don't know what to say. This is very, very well understood and not really a point of contention. People being dumb in April can still be true, that's not how infection works. Its not like it catches up or something. We never hit anywhere close to maximum levels of infection. What matters is the moment where governments started to react. Very little, if anything, happened after China's warning. Moving that warning earlier still means nothing happens Earlier warnings *and* measures to limit spread are what China needed to do. China prioritized saving face over limiting infection, which is why tons and tons of people were flying all over the place before anything happened.
What's key is the threshold for action by governments worldwide. You can run the scenario yourself. Set the initial rate of infection low Vs high in the first three weeks and then high (simulating it escaped China) but keep a constant threshold (as a function of total infections) for worldwide action which is realistic, I.e. no one is going to lock down until shit hits the fan. Let us know how many people are saved in your scenario.
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On June 02 2021 20:29 EnDeR_ wrote:Meanwhile in rural California: www.theguardian.comShow nested quote +The region has long been one of the most forceful in its pushback against measures such as masks, business restrictions and vaccine mandates – and the protests have only continued to gain steam. A cafe in the town of Mendocino made headlines after announcing it will charge customers a $5 fee if they order while wearing a mask. It also threatened to charge $5 to anyone “caught bragging about your vaccine”.
... He also offered a 50% discount to customers who threw their masks in the trash... They're not the only region with low vaccine rates and open disregard for social distancing rules. I wonder what it'll take for everyone to realize that the only way things go back to normal is if everyone (90%+ in the population) gets vaccinated and masks become a regular life feature.
Masks becoming a regular life feature so we can return to normal seems like a bit of an oxymoron to me. The problem with telling people in rural areas they need to get on board so we can return to normal life is that they've already returned to normal life months ago.
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On June 02 2021 04:35 KwarK wrote:
Any potential actions taken that would have been effective at preventing a pandemic would have been decried as alarmist, unnecessary, and excessive by the people not dying. Successful preventative policy is always unpopular because it cannot be evaluated based on the hypothetical catastrophe avoided. Even after millions of deaths people are still angry about the lockdowns. The idea that the populist democracies of the west would have made informed proactive choices had they only been informed earlier is laughable. I’d say they needed the disaster in order to learn but that implies they’re capable of learning. Sound strategic planning is not a strength of populism.
That is exactly what happened in Poland. A promptly introduced lockdown resulted in almost no deaths and a massive surge during the second wave because people acted like idiots. That made Poland one of the worst performers in Europe across the two waves...
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On June 03 2021 20:20 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2021 04:35 KwarK wrote:
Any potential actions taken that would have been effective at preventing a pandemic would have been decried as alarmist, unnecessary, and excessive by the people not dying. Successful preventative policy is always unpopular because it cannot be evaluated based on the hypothetical catastrophe avoided. Even after millions of deaths people are still angry about the lockdowns. The idea that the populist democracies of the west would have made informed proactive choices had they only been informed earlier is laughable. I’d say they needed the disaster in order to learn but that implies they’re capable of learning. Sound strategic planning is not a strength of populism. That is exactly what happened in Poland. A promptly introduced lockdown resulted in almost no deaths and a massive surge during the second wave because people acted like idiots. That made Poland one of the worst performers in Europe across the two waves...
Somewhat similar in germany. Did really well in the beginning, not so great after people stopped taking it serious because "it wasn't so bad". Of course, ignoring that "it wasn't so bad" due to people taking it serious in the beginning.
It doesn't even have anything to do with the "type" of government. You had populist/hard right wing countries fail (poland, US, UK etc), but you also had centrist/left leaning governments fail - see sweden, see germany etc. The only real difference to case load in the end was how densely populated any country was.
"The west" collectively failed, because the majority of people "in the west" are entitled, ignorant idiots, crying murder over the necessity to wear a mask or not being able to get hammered in the pub. Or to put it differently, not giving a shit whether they kill someone if that means they don't need to wear a piece of cloth or have to practice their alcoholism confined in their own sad homes.
It's not the governments. It's the people. You can blame the government failures too (i certainly do in the UK), but in the end, it's the people who couldn't give less of a shit. Not everyone, of course, but the vast majority.
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EPT
