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On February 04 2021 00:11 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2021 00:06 Acrofales wrote:On February 03 2021 20:45 Erasme wrote:
There was still a public human zoo in belgium in 1958. I'm not sure how that connects to anything I said, but yes, there was. Can't really say that europeans were above the concept of slavery when you could buy a zoo ticket to see how the "savages" lived in 1958.
Where did I say that? I said it was a "far far away" problem for most Europeans. Moreover, the "look how backwards these people are" thing isn't slavery. Slavery as such was abolished in 1958. That the Belgians behaved atrociously in Congo, and treated native Congolese appallingly, doesn't have much to do with slave trade. And in all honesty, things haven't improved much since the Belgium World Expo, 1958. There are still human zoos. They just happen to be "in situ" in Africa, SE Asia or South America now.
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On February 04 2021 00:20 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2021 00:11 Erasme wrote:On February 04 2021 00:06 Acrofales wrote:On February 03 2021 20:45 Erasme wrote:
There was still a public human zoo in belgium in 1958. I'm not sure how that connects to anything I said, but yes, there was. Can't really say that europeans were above the concept of slavery when you could buy a zoo ticket to see how the "savages" lived in 1958. Where did I say that? I said it was a "far far away" problem for most Europeans. Moreover, the "look how backwards these people are" thing isn't slavery. Slavery as such was abolished in 1958. That the Belgians behaved atrociously in Congo, and treated native Congolese appallingly, doesn't have much to do with slave trade. And in all honesty, things haven't improved much since the Belgium World Expo, 1958. There are still human zoos. They just happen to be "in situ" in Africa, SE Asia or South America now.
I feel like you're getting worked up over an imaginary issue. I simply stated that we cannot pretend that europeans were above slavery when you had humans zoo open until 1958. I do not disagree with you, quite the opposite.
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I am glad McConnell is making a fuss about budget reconciliation, literally the exact same strategy he used. Republican arguments have never been good faith, but everything during Trump’s blemish on American history made it so much more clear. Biden and the democrats don’t have nearly the pressure to “reach across the aisle” as they did during Obama’s presidency. If they push this package through, I’ll have faith in democrats again. Limited and conditional faith, but at the core, democrats need to be willing to act like they won and use their power. Trump showed Americans his vision. People want to see and feel vision and leadership. If Biden and Democrats do the same thing, I think they can win again in 2022 and 2024
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American slavery was pretty uniquely awful in history, iirc, for a whole host of reasons (most other competitors for how awful it was involved european colonizers and a native population).
Most places with slavery before it didn't have it include the "passes on to children" part, and slavery was all over the place as to how good or bad it could be (varying from something like the current working middle class to something like prison conditions).
America also still practices slavery. It's in the 13th amendment as an acceptable punishment for crimes and a small handful of states use involuntary unpaid labor in their prisons. Last time I brought this up in the thread people said "but that isn't SLAVERY", no, that's exactly slavery. It just isn't as awful as the chattel slavery practiced pre Civil War.
(It's also somewhat pointless : it doesn't really save much money and the labor can obviously only be used on manual, very unskilled labor).
Most other states pay way below the minimum wage for prisoners which isn't much better (on the lines of .50 an hour and then some even charge the prisoners for items like tooth brushes).
On February 04 2021 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:
I am glad McConnell is making a fuss about budget reconciliation, literally the exact same strategy he used. Republican arguments have never been good faith, but everything during Trump’s blemish on American history made it so much more clear. Biden and the democrats don’t have nearly the pressure to “reach across the aisle” as they did during Obama’s presidency. If they push this package through, I’ll have faith in democrats again. Limited and conditional faith, but at the core, democrats need to be willing to act like they won and use their power. Trump showed Americans his vision. People want to see and feel vision and leadership. If Biden and Democrats do the same thing, I think they can win again in 2022 and 2024
Biden being white is a big advantage he has over Obama here, in that no one will blindly back McConnell purely out of unconscious racism. (McConnell always complained that Obama lectured him).
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On February 04 2021 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:
I am glad McConnell is making a fuss about budget reconciliation, literally the exact same strategy he used. Republican arguments have never been good faith, but everything during Trump’s blemish on American history made it so much more clear. Biden and the democrats don’t have nearly the pressure to “reach across the aisle” as they did during Obama’s presidency. If they push this package through, I’ll have faith in democrats again. Limited and conditional faith, but at the core, democrats need to be willing to act like they won and use their power. Trump showed Americans his vision. People want to see and feel vision and leadership. If Biden and Democrats do the same thing, I think they can win again in 2022 and 2024
So very amen. I am desperate to see a Democrat Senate flex some muscle and prove that not only are they willing to govern, but that their version of governance is actively good. Not just not-the-Republicans, but actively good. So far I am cautiously on the precipice of mild optimism, and I hope that we see stuff get done ASAP. In the best case scenario I dunno if Im confident they hold in 2024 or 2022, but I think their best chances are going to be done off the back of aggressive policy that makes an effort to reach out to the majority of Americans in tangible ways.
Heres to hoping.
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United States10237 Posts
McConnell's whole shtick just brings me back to Danglars whole "we must argue in good faith" while talking out of his ass 99% of the time.
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On February 04 2021 02:11 FlaShFTW wrote:
McConnell's whole shtick just brings me back to Danglars whole "we must argue in good faith" while talking out of his ass 99% of the time.
Yes and that is the difference between weird role playing as if you're a senator running for re-election, or just having a conversation on an internet forum like a normal person. The people who argue like they are running for re-election are so weird. Its like dude nothing we say here matters, just be normal. "What you said is why people hate democrats" bro no one knows who mohdoo is and they shouldn't because I don't matter.
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On February 04 2021 02:10 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2021 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:
I am glad McConnell is making a fuss about budget reconciliation, literally the exact same strategy he used. Republican arguments have never been good faith, but everything during Trump’s blemish on American history made it so much more clear. Biden and the democrats don’t have nearly the pressure to “reach across the aisle” as they did during Obama’s presidency. If they push this package through, I’ll have faith in democrats again. Limited and conditional faith, but at the core, democrats need to be willing to act like they won and use their power. Trump showed Americans his vision. People want to see and feel vision and leadership. If Biden and Democrats do the same thing, I think they can win again in 2022 and 2024 So very amen. I am desperate to see a Democrat Senate flex some muscle and prove that not only are they willing to govern, but that their version of governance is actively good. Not just not-the-Republicans, but actively good. So far I am cautiously on the precipice of mild optimism, and I hope that we see stuff get done ASAP. In the best case scenario I dunno if Im confident they hold in 2024 or 2022, but I think their best chances are going to be done off the back of aggressive policy that makes an effort to reach out to the majority of Americans in tangible ways. Heres to hoping.
I think if they raise the minimum wage to $15 and covid is dealt with appropriately, 2022 is basically on lock. We won't lose the house if those 2 things happen.
For 2024, I would like to see Biden dump insane government money into funding green manufacturing in shitty states. All these states that manufactured old ass technology no one gives a shit about anymore, just build new factories that build new shit. Bunch of semiconductor fabs pumping out government subsidized solar panels sounds great to me.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On February 04 2021 02:21 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2021 02:10 Zambrah wrote:On February 04 2021 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:
I am glad McConnell is making a fuss about budget reconciliation, literally the exact same strategy he used. Republican arguments have never been good faith, but everything during Trump’s blemish on American history made it so much more clear. Biden and the democrats don’t have nearly the pressure to “reach across the aisle” as they did during Obama’s presidency. If they push this package through, I’ll have faith in democrats again. Limited and conditional faith, but at the core, democrats need to be willing to act like they won and use their power. Trump showed Americans his vision. People want to see and feel vision and leadership. If Biden and Democrats do the same thing, I think they can win again in 2022 and 2024 So very amen. I am desperate to see a Democrat Senate flex some muscle and prove that not only are they willing to govern, but that their version of governance is actively good. Not just not-the-Republicans, but actively good. So far I am cautiously on the precipice of mild optimism, and I hope that we see stuff get done ASAP. In the best case scenario I dunno if Im confident they hold in 2024 or 2022, but I think their best chances are going to be done off the back of aggressive policy that makes an effort to reach out to the majority of Americans in tangible ways. Heres to hoping. I think if they raise the minimum wage to $15 and covid is dealt with appropriately, 2022 is basically on lock. We won't lose the house if those 2 things happen. For 2024, I would like to see Biden dump insane government money into funding green manufacturing in shitty states. All these states that manufactured old ass technology no one gives a shit about anymore, just build new factories that build new shit. Bunch of semiconductor fabs pumping out government subsidized solar panels sounds great to me.
The minimum wage increase in this bill would force me to vote R for the next President. I'm sorry, but it completely takes away the whole point of state and local government for the Federal government to completely overrule our already established plan to get to $15 an hour. I think there are more people like me and therefore 2022 would not be a lock because of that.
You can have literally any counter argument you want, nothing will convince me to go "Woah, the president was right to discard our wage bill passed in the same election as him." I'm being very tolerant and patient with him as president as long as it does not override our rights to govern within our state.
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On February 04 2021 02:49 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2021 02:21 Mohdoo wrote:On February 04 2021 02:10 Zambrah wrote:On February 04 2021 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:
I am glad McConnell is making a fuss about budget reconciliation, literally the exact same strategy he used. Republican arguments have never been good faith, but everything during Trump’s blemish on American history made it so much more clear. Biden and the democrats don’t have nearly the pressure to “reach across the aisle” as they did during Obama’s presidency. If they push this package through, I’ll have faith in democrats again. Limited and conditional faith, but at the core, democrats need to be willing to act like they won and use their power. Trump showed Americans his vision. People want to see and feel vision and leadership. If Biden and Democrats do the same thing, I think they can win again in 2022 and 2024 So very amen. I am desperate to see a Democrat Senate flex some muscle and prove that not only are they willing to govern, but that their version of governance is actively good. Not just not-the-Republicans, but actively good. So far I am cautiously on the precipice of mild optimism, and I hope that we see stuff get done ASAP. In the best case scenario I dunno if Im confident they hold in 2024 or 2022, but I think their best chances are going to be done off the back of aggressive policy that makes an effort to reach out to the majority of Americans in tangible ways. Heres to hoping. I think if they raise the minimum wage to $15 and covid is dealt with appropriately, 2022 is basically on lock. We won't lose the house if those 2 things happen. For 2024, I would like to see Biden dump insane government money into funding green manufacturing in shitty states. All these states that manufactured old ass technology no one gives a shit about anymore, just build new factories that build new shit. Bunch of semiconductor fabs pumping out government subsidized solar panels sounds great to me. The minimum wage increase in this bill would force me to vote R for the next President. I'm sorry, but it completely takes away the whole point of state and local government for the Federal government to completely overrule our already established plan to get to $15 an hour. I think there are more people like me and therefore 2022 would not be a lock because of that. You can have literally any counter argument you want, nothing will convince me to go "Woah, the president was right to discard our wage bill passed in the same election as him." I'm being very tolerant and patient with him as president as long as it does not override our rights to govern within our state.
Sounds weirdly "you're not the boss of me". The federal government has decided many times to shit on state decisions. The federal government is king in many situations. States can't say no to war or plenty of other things.
As I see it, Florida decided on a timeline for $15 min wage. Federal government said it should happen faster. In some situations, states win, in other situations, feds win. Is it that you are against any forms of fed overruling state, or is it this specific policy?
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On February 04 2021 02:49 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2021 02:21 Mohdoo wrote:On February 04 2021 02:10 Zambrah wrote:On February 04 2021 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:
I am glad McConnell is making a fuss about budget reconciliation, literally the exact same strategy he used. Republican arguments have never been good faith, but everything during Trump’s blemish on American history made it so much more clear. Biden and the democrats don’t have nearly the pressure to “reach across the aisle” as they did during Obama’s presidency. If they push this package through, I’ll have faith in democrats again. Limited and conditional faith, but at the core, democrats need to be willing to act like they won and use their power. Trump showed Americans his vision. People want to see and feel vision and leadership. If Biden and Democrats do the same thing, I think they can win again in 2022 and 2024 So very amen. I am desperate to see a Democrat Senate flex some muscle and prove that not only are they willing to govern, but that their version of governance is actively good. Not just not-the-Republicans, but actively good. So far I am cautiously on the precipice of mild optimism, and I hope that we see stuff get done ASAP. In the best case scenario I dunno if Im confident they hold in 2024 or 2022, but I think their best chances are going to be done off the back of aggressive policy that makes an effort to reach out to the majority of Americans in tangible ways. Heres to hoping. I think if they raise the minimum wage to $15 and covid is dealt with appropriately, 2022 is basically on lock. We won't lose the house if those 2 things happen. For 2024, I would like to see Biden dump insane government money into funding green manufacturing in shitty states. All these states that manufactured old ass technology no one gives a shit about anymore, just build new factories that build new shit. Bunch of semiconductor fabs pumping out government subsidized solar panels sounds great to me. The minimum wage increase in this bill would force me to vote R for the next President. I'm sorry, but it completely takes away the whole point of state and local government for the Federal government to completely overrule our already established plan to get to $15 an hour. I think there are more people like me and therefore 2022 would not be a lock because of that. You can have literally any counter argument you want, nothing will convince me to go "Woah, the president was right to discard our wage bill passed in the same election as him." I'm being very tolerant and patient with him as president as long as it does not override our rights to govern within our state. And what about the states that are not willing to increase the minimum wage?
Its great that there are a bunch of states who take this up on their own, but there are always a whole bunch who do not and have have to be dragged kicking and screaming forward.
Its a problem with 'state rights'. At what point does the federal government need to stop in when some states don't do things themselves?
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On February 04 2021 02:49 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2021 02:21 Mohdoo wrote:On February 04 2021 02:10 Zambrah wrote:On February 04 2021 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:
I am glad McConnell is making a fuss about budget reconciliation, literally the exact same strategy he used. Republican arguments have never been good faith, but everything during Trump’s blemish on American history made it so much more clear. Biden and the democrats don’t have nearly the pressure to “reach across the aisle” as they did during Obama’s presidency. If they push this package through, I’ll have faith in democrats again. Limited and conditional faith, but at the core, democrats need to be willing to act like they won and use their power. Trump showed Americans his vision. People want to see and feel vision and leadership. If Biden and Democrats do the same thing, I think they can win again in 2022 and 2024 So very amen. I am desperate to see a Democrat Senate flex some muscle and prove that not only are they willing to govern, but that their version of governance is actively good. Not just not-the-Republicans, but actively good. So far I am cautiously on the precipice of mild optimism, and I hope that we see stuff get done ASAP. In the best case scenario I dunno if Im confident they hold in 2024 or 2022, but I think their best chances are going to be done off the back of aggressive policy that makes an effort to reach out to the majority of Americans in tangible ways. Heres to hoping. I think if they raise the minimum wage to $15 and covid is dealt with appropriately, 2022 is basically on lock. We won't lose the house if those 2 things happen. For 2024, I would like to see Biden dump insane government money into funding green manufacturing in shitty states. All these states that manufactured old ass technology no one gives a shit about anymore, just build new factories that build new shit. Bunch of semiconductor fabs pumping out government subsidized solar panels sounds great to me. The minimum wage increase in this bill would force me to vote R for the next President. I'm sorry, but it completely takes away the whole point of state and local government for the Federal government to completely overrule our already established plan to get to $15 an hour. I think there are more people like me and therefore 2022 would not be a lock because of that. You can have literally any counter argument you want, nothing will convince me to go "Woah, the president was right to discard our wage bill passed in the same election as him." I'm being very tolerant and patient with him as president as long as it does not override our rights to govern within our state.
So is "do exactly what I want on this one issue or I'll vote for the people who think Hollywood gays are attacking Christian society" the socially liberal component of your political identity? How is this any different from a political version of "sorry you made me hit you, baby, just don't make me mad next time?"
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Lol @ bisudagger
I can understand your opposition to a policy matter.
Unless you are hyperbolic, you very much lost me when you don't even need to see the factual consequences of said policy to throw a tantrum and say "ok Go on without me". Moreover these are potential (!!!) Consequences which I'm certain you can as much predict as anyone here.
I find this position so incredibly untenable it's almost comical.
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15$ minimum wage when it was first proposed was pretty absurd, but it's now only a little bit higher than the highest minimum wage in US history. (It was ~11.55 in 2018 dollars in 1968, and it's been falling from ~10 in 2018 dollars since 1979, per this cnn article https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/business/us-minimum-wage-by-year/index.html ).
The states/local rights on wages, conservatives blew that one up themselves. It doesn't work due to their own hypocrisy.
The thing is that when localities have proposed raising their minimum wage to 15$ in a red state, the state themselves has blocked their raises. It's true that 15$ is too high for a lot of places, especially rural ones (I've seen arguments that 12$ is the proper number instead for this reason). The issue is that when an attempt was made to do this on the local level, conservatives blocked it.
If conservatives had operated in good faith then this wouldn't still be relevant at all and cities would have raised their wages and it wouldn't have affected rural areas.
It's not that conservatives want it decided on the local level, it's that they want to pay poor people less money.
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On February 04 2021 02:58 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2021 02:49 BisuDagger wrote:On February 04 2021 02:21 Mohdoo wrote:On February 04 2021 02:10 Zambrah wrote:On February 04 2021 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:
I am glad McConnell is making a fuss about budget reconciliation, literally the exact same strategy he used. Republican arguments have never been good faith, but everything during Trump’s blemish on American history made it so much more clear. Biden and the democrats don’t have nearly the pressure to “reach across the aisle” as they did during Obama’s presidency. If they push this package through, I’ll have faith in democrats again. Limited and conditional faith, but at the core, democrats need to be willing to act like they won and use their power. Trump showed Americans his vision. People want to see and feel vision and leadership. If Biden and Democrats do the same thing, I think they can win again in 2022 and 2024 So very amen. I am desperate to see a Democrat Senate flex some muscle and prove that not only are they willing to govern, but that their version of governance is actively good. Not just not-the-Republicans, but actively good. So far I am cautiously on the precipice of mild optimism, and I hope that we see stuff get done ASAP. In the best case scenario I dunno if Im confident they hold in 2024 or 2022, but I think their best chances are going to be done off the back of aggressive policy that makes an effort to reach out to the majority of Americans in tangible ways. Heres to hoping. I think if they raise the minimum wage to $15 and covid is dealt with appropriately, 2022 is basically on lock. We won't lose the house if those 2 things happen. For 2024, I would like to see Biden dump insane government money into funding green manufacturing in shitty states. All these states that manufactured old ass technology no one gives a shit about anymore, just build new factories that build new shit. Bunch of semiconductor fabs pumping out government subsidized solar panels sounds great to me. The minimum wage increase in this bill would force me to vote R for the next President. I'm sorry, but it completely takes away the whole point of state and local government for the Federal government to completely overrule our already established plan to get to $15 an hour. I think there are more people like me and therefore 2022 would not be a lock because of that. You can have literally any counter argument you want, nothing will convince me to go "Woah, the president was right to discard our wage bill passed in the same election as him." I'm being very tolerant and patient with him as president as long as it does not override our rights to govern within our state. And what about the states that are not willing to increase the minimum wage? Its great that there are a bunch of states who take this up on their own, but there are always a whole bunch who do not and have have to be dragged kicking and screaming forward. Its a problem with 'state rights'. At what point does the federal government need to stop in when some states don't do things themselves?
I'm also curious about this. After all, states' rights aren't automatically, inherently, definitionally preferable to federal rights. There is nothing implicit within each state deciding at their own pace that makes it necessarily better than a national law coming into effect. And the reason why this is true is because some decisions are just plain beneficial for people (e.g., civil rights), and so any states that necessarily lag behind will be doing a disservice to their states' constituents. Sometimes that drawback doesn't happen, although that's generally only when the national policy hurts people, rather than helps them (and so the states who would have preferred to wait longer to implement their state policy would have been able to possibly prevent damage to themselves, by first seeing the damage in other states that voluntarily took the lead on transitioning to the new, harmful policy).
But BisuDagger's issue doesn't seem to be with the specific policy of a $15 minimum wage (i.e., the argument that increasing the minimum wage would be a net negative, rather than a net positive)... rather, BD's issue seems to be with the fact that the federal government is rolling this out en masse, rather than allowing states to enforce it whenever they see fit. If one agrees that increasing the minimum wage is going to provide more benefits than drawbacks, then it's necessarily the case that any state that chooses to lag behind (from a states' rights perspective) will necessarily be hurting their citizens by not helping them as soon as possible.
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On February 04 2021 02:49 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2021 02:21 Mohdoo wrote:On February 04 2021 02:10 Zambrah wrote:On February 04 2021 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:
I am glad McConnell is making a fuss about budget reconciliation, literally the exact same strategy he used. Republican arguments have never been good faith, but everything during Trump’s blemish on American history made it so much more clear. Biden and the democrats don’t have nearly the pressure to “reach across the aisle” as they did during Obama’s presidency. If they push this package through, I’ll have faith in democrats again. Limited and conditional faith, but at the core, democrats need to be willing to act like they won and use their power. Trump showed Americans his vision. People want to see and feel vision and leadership. If Biden and Democrats do the same thing, I think they can win again in 2022 and 2024 So very amen. I am desperate to see a Democrat Senate flex some muscle and prove that not only are they willing to govern, but that their version of governance is actively good. Not just not-the-Republicans, but actively good. So far I am cautiously on the precipice of mild optimism, and I hope that we see stuff get done ASAP. In the best case scenario I dunno if Im confident they hold in 2024 or 2022, but I think their best chances are going to be done off the back of aggressive policy that makes an effort to reach out to the majority of Americans in tangible ways. Heres to hoping. I think if they raise the minimum wage to $15 and covid is dealt with appropriately, 2022 is basically on lock. We won't lose the house if those 2 things happen. For 2024, I would like to see Biden dump insane government money into funding green manufacturing in shitty states. All these states that manufactured old ass technology no one gives a shit about anymore, just build new factories that build new shit. Bunch of semiconductor fabs pumping out government subsidized solar panels sounds great to me. The minimum wage increase in this bill would force me to vote R for the next President. I'm sorry, but it completely takes away the whole point of state and local government for the Federal government to completely overrule our already established plan to get to $15 an hour. I think there are more people like me and therefore 2022 would not be a lock because of that. You can have literally any counter argument you want, nothing will convince me to go "Woah, the president was right to discard our wage bill passed in the same election as him." I'm being very tolerant and patient with him as president as long as it does not override our rights to govern within our state.
Like many other posters, I don't understand your issue. Your state wanted to up it to 15$ an hour with your benediction. Then Biden thought 'damn great plan, lets do that everywhere', and that's where he lost you ? Is it just a "you don't get to tell me what to do" issue or what ?
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Norway28712 Posts
I understood his issue to be that he's happy with the timeline Florida is doing it at, but he doesn't like the timeline the Biden admin wants to aim for, and he dislikes that they are trying to overrule the Florida timeline, specifically because he thinks the Biden timeline is so quick that what he perceives as a positive policy will end up having negative consequences.
I think it seems like a weird single issue of a hill to die on, but oh well.
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Are there any precedents for those negative consequences ? Aka was there a time where raising the minimum wage for an industry effectively killed it ? Or had negative repercussions on the economy ?
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On February 04 2021 03:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2021 02:58 Gorsameth wrote:On February 04 2021 02:49 BisuDagger wrote:On February 04 2021 02:21 Mohdoo wrote:On February 04 2021 02:10 Zambrah wrote:On February 04 2021 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:
I am glad McConnell is making a fuss about budget reconciliation, literally the exact same strategy he used. Republican arguments have never been good faith, but everything during Trump’s blemish on American history made it so much more clear. Biden and the democrats don’t have nearly the pressure to “reach across the aisle” as they did during Obama’s presidency. If they push this package through, I’ll have faith in democrats again. Limited and conditional faith, but at the core, democrats need to be willing to act like they won and use their power. Trump showed Americans his vision. People want to see and feel vision and leadership. If Biden and Democrats do the same thing, I think they can win again in 2022 and 2024 So very amen. I am desperate to see a Democrat Senate flex some muscle and prove that not only are they willing to govern, but that their version of governance is actively good. Not just not-the-Republicans, but actively good. So far I am cautiously on the precipice of mild optimism, and I hope that we see stuff get done ASAP. In the best case scenario I dunno if Im confident they hold in 2024 or 2022, but I think their best chances are going to be done off the back of aggressive policy that makes an effort to reach out to the majority of Americans in tangible ways. Heres to hoping. I think if they raise the minimum wage to $15 and covid is dealt with appropriately, 2022 is basically on lock. We won't lose the house if those 2 things happen. For 2024, I would like to see Biden dump insane government money into funding green manufacturing in shitty states. All these states that manufactured old ass technology no one gives a shit about anymore, just build new factories that build new shit. Bunch of semiconductor fabs pumping out government subsidized solar panels sounds great to me. The minimum wage increase in this bill would force me to vote R for the next President. I'm sorry, but it completely takes away the whole point of state and local government for the Federal government to completely overrule our already established plan to get to $15 an hour. I think there are more people like me and therefore 2022 would not be a lock because of that. You can have literally any counter argument you want, nothing will convince me to go "Woah, the president was right to discard our wage bill passed in the same election as him." I'm being very tolerant and patient with him as president as long as it does not override our rights to govern within our state. And what about the states that are not willing to increase the minimum wage? Its great that there are a bunch of states who take this up on their own, but there are always a whole bunch who do not and have have to be dragged kicking and screaming forward. Its a problem with 'state rights'. At what point does the federal government need to stop in when some states don't do things themselves? I'm also curious about this. After all, states' rights aren't automatically, inherently, definitionally preferable to federal rights. There is nothing implicit within each state deciding at their own pace that makes it necessarily better than a national law coming into effect. And the reason why this is true is because some decisions are just plain beneficial for people (e.g., civil rights), and so any states that necessarily lag behind will be doing a disservice to their states' constituents. Sometimes that drawback doesn't happen, although that's generally only when the national policy hurts people, rather than helps them (and so the states who would have preferred to wait longer to implement their state policy would have been able to possibly prevent damage to themselves, by first seeing the damage in other states that voluntarily took the lead on transitioning to the new, harmful policy). But BisuDagger's issue doesn't seem to be with the specific policy of a $15 minimum wage (i.e., the argument that increasing the minimum wage would be a net negative, rather than a net positive)... rather, BD's issue seems to be with the fact that the federal government is rolling this out en masse, rather than allowing states to enforce it whenever they see fit. If one agrees that increasing the minimum wage is going to provide more benefits than drawbacks, then it's necessarily the case that any state that chooses to lag behind (from a states' rights perspective) will necessarily be hurting their citizens by not helping them as soon as possible.
It seems pretty trivial to have the federal government mandate that states should have a plan to increase the minimum wage to $15 in this case. Florida already has one so they can keep what they voted for exactly as BisuDagger wants. The federal government can create a standard that states can adopt if they don't want to develop their own.
This has its own issues though like RealID and getting states to stop mucking around for decade+
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On February 04 2021 04:08 Erasme wrote:
Are there any precedents for those negative consequences ? Aka was there a time where raising the minimum wage for an industry effectively killed it ? Or had negative repercussions on the economy ?
There are lots of instances you can point to where garbage business owners who basically thought "I am boot strapz!!!11" and had some shitty ass idea to make a shitty ass "small business", did a terrible job and basically couldn't afford to pay their employees. This is common. Many small business owners are profoundly bad at what they do. Many can't survive even with the existing minimum wage.
A friend of mine instituted a $15 minimum wage at his car dealership about 4 years ago. He said "If you can't afford to pay your receptionist $15/hour, you are probably a terrible businessman".
Since many businesses die from $8 min wage, better business owners die off at $10, then even better ones at $12, $14, $20, $25.
If the minimum wage was $1, we would get tons of new jobs. Those new jobs would be similar to our current situation. Because people aren't paid enough by their employers, they go into debt, can't afford healthcare and a variety of things happen that make their situation even worse, relying on government aid and many other things. So even if the minimum wage was $1, the benefits from "having more jobs" isn't real because those wages aren't enough to support someone. This is why the argument is a false narrative. The country having more $5/hr jobs is not the same as the country supporting more people.
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EPT
