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On February 02 2021 00:34 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2021 22:51 WombaT wrote:
I mean the issue with the peace prize is its by its very nature extremely political and arbitrary. You sometimes get recipients who most people will tend to agree were worthy of recognition as per the intent of the award, and you get some extremely whacky choices for whom the word ‘peacemaker’ does not seem applicable at all, your Kissingers of the world And you get prizes going to people who seem deserving of it, then get into a position of power and turn out to be just as genocidal as the guys they were initially combating (ahem, Aung Suu Kyi).
She might not be the best example. Very recent events show she had very good reasons to be extremely cautious about the military.
But there are plenty of others, even Obama has blood on his hands. It is highly debatable how often the peace price works as intended when they give it to push an ongoing conflict in a certain (peaceful?) direction.
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I think its basically impossible Schumer and Biden conclude they can trust Republicans to work with them if they make a peace offering here. Which is great. Republicans will finally see the cost of arguing in the worst possible faith of all time. Budget reconciliation is the only answer here. Do all of it, no holding back. Show people Democrats have something worth fighting for. Make a stand and take a position, its what voters want.
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On February 02 2021 02:01 Mohdoo wrote:
I think its basically impossible Schumer and Biden conclude they can trust Republicans to work with them if they make a peace offering here. Which is great. Republicans will finally see the cost of arguing in the worst possible faith of all time. Budget reconciliation is the only answer here. Do all of it, no holding back. Show people Democrats have something worth fighting for. Make a stand and take a position, its what voters want.
I hope this is what they conclude, and I am heartened by what little I've heard so far.
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I mean getting Republican buy-in would be helpful for the future, as you could just point back to them having accepted the the covid relief package when the inevitable deficit-hawking begins. And similarly giving them a reasonable chance to participate makes it easier before next elections to point out that they didn't. Offer of cooperation at their own terms seems like a win-win for the Dems.
Obviously it's a fine balance between unnecessary delay and making that offer. Especially if (and when) it is expected to be rejected regardless.
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I have to imagine the Biden administration's conclusion from the Obama era is to go big or go home in terms of passing bills and openly broadcast their successes. No more pared down compromises dictated by the Republicans when the olive branch was slapped down. I couldn't imagine an easier way for the Biden honeymoon to end with a failure to pass the stimulus or an anemic vaccination and economic relief package.
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On February 02 2021 02:01 Mohdoo wrote:
I think its basically impossible Schumer and Biden conclude they can trust Republicans to work with them if they make a peace offering here. Which is great. Republicans will finally see the cost of arguing in the worst possible faith of all time. Budget reconciliation is the only answer here. Do all of it, no holding back. Show people Democrats have something worth fighting for. Make a stand and take a position, its what voters want.
The biggest signs of this so far are that McConnell has blinked about demanding the filibuster be enshrined before cooperating with the democrats on anything. He backed off after saying "Synema and Manchin said they wouldn't and that's plenty", but Manchin is probably open if it REALLY comes to it. Obscure parliamentary maneuvering is the type of thing WV voters do not care about, and they hate McConnell for his black lung policies (ie, Manchin would be far more likely to abuse reconciliation than to outright overturn the filibuster, but he can overturn it in all but name without his voters caring)
(The issue at hand was how to distribute committee seats, since Harris can't be seated on committees there are equal numbers, meaning all committees have equal dem and rep. McConnell was threatening to kill EVERYTHING in committee unless the filibuster was guaranteed until 2022. Schumer told him he had the 50 votes needed to allow Harris to cast tiebreaking votes in committees, and McConnell backed down).
Sidenote: I'm not sure what the hell Synema is doing. Her state just went blue in what was a red favoring year, and it's been trending bluer for a while. There's no reason for her to be the second most conservative democrat in the senate.
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Biden's FB just posted a demand that Congress pass his stimulus package as proposed, so I think he's sticking to his guns.
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On February 02 2021 03:03 farvacola wrote:
Biden's FB just posted a demand that Congress pass his stimulus package as proposed, so I think he's sticking to his guns.
I really hope so because I truly think its what voters want. They want vision and determination, just like the current republican party. Show people you know you're the boss right now and show them what you can do. You won the election, go start changing shit.
Fundamentally, it is very important to recognize that our country has ****PERMANENTLY**** moved past the days of the middle determining things. We are NOT a united people, we do NOT agree on the future of the country and we will NOT be reaching bipartisan conclusions. Use these next 2 years to show what another 6 would look like. If you are elected the leader, maybe actually fucking lead and have some nuts.
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All I care about is getting rid of the filibuster. Just as every move pre-Georgia was about winning Georgia, every move now has to be about dismantling McConnell's empire, especially now he's run it out onto the field like this.
No single issue, not even the recovery package, outweighs the damage the reps will do if they're allowed to squeak into 2023 with minority rule intact. The dems should be charting whatever course will most pressure Manchin into tearing it up, imo. Everything else is secondary.
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Bisutopia19246 Posts
On February 02 2021 03:28 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2021 03:03 farvacola wrote:
Biden's FB just posted a demand that Congress pass his stimulus package as proposed, so I think he's sticking to his guns. I really hope so because I truly think its what voters want. They want vision and determination, just like the current republican party. Show people you know you're the boss right now and show them what you can do. You won the election, go start changing shit. Fundamentally, it is very important to recognize that our country has ****PERMANENTLY**** moved past the days of the middle determining things. We are NOT a united people, we do NOT agree on the future of the country and we will NOT be reaching bipartisan conclusions. Use these next 2 years to show what another 6 would look like. If you are elected the leader, maybe actually fucking lead and have some nuts.
You say that, and preach that to your friends and family and children. That’s why there is no middle. I am conservative/libertarian, I am still willing to meet in the middle, and I still love all of you for your views on the left. I don’t have belief that we are permanently passed that stage, and I hope the millions like me will stop being disenfranchised by our party so we can work with yours. And I believe that there are those on the left who remain moderate and believe in the same things I do. I hope to help rebuild this nation by starting with my children and raising them to be party tolerant and appreciate all views of the world to the fullest. I just wanted to share this positivity with you as someone who truly believes in what I say and feel.
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Democrats can meet you in the middle, but not the current GOP. If you want to stop being disenfranchised by the GOP, stop voting GOP. As simple as that. Why would your party listen to you if you're going to vote for them no matter what ?
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Bisutopia19246 Posts
On February 02 2021 10:00 Erasme wrote:
Democrats can meet you in the middle, but not the current GOP. If you want to stop being disenfranchised by the GOP, stop voting GOP. As simple as that. Why would your party listen to you if you're going to vote for them no matter what ?
I’ve never voted a republican president. I do my part with my vote. I vote for quality over party tags.
Edit: been around for 4 presidential elections
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On February 02 2021 09:56 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2021 03:28 Mohdoo wrote:On February 02 2021 03:03 farvacola wrote:
Biden's FB just posted a demand that Congress pass his stimulus package as proposed, so I think he's sticking to his guns. I really hope so because I truly think its what voters want. They want vision and determination, just like the current republican party. Show people you know you're the boss right now and show them what you can do. You won the election, go start changing shit. Fundamentally, it is very important to recognize that our country has ****PERMANENTLY**** moved past the days of the middle determining things. We are NOT a united people, we do NOT agree on the future of the country and we will NOT be reaching bipartisan conclusions. Use these next 2 years to show what another 6 would look like. If you are elected the leader, maybe actually fucking lead and have some nuts. You say that, and preach that to your friends and family and children. That’s why there is no middle. I am conservative/libertarian, I am still willing to meet in the middle, and I still love all of you for your views on the left. I don’t have belief that we are permanently passed that stage, and I hope the millions like me will stop being disenfranchised by our party so we can work with yours. And I believe that there are those on the left who remain moderate and believe in the same things I do. I hope to help rebuild this nation by starting with my children and raising them to be party tolerant and appreciate all views of the world to the fullest. I just wanted to share this positivity with you as someone who truly believes in what I say and feel.
I could meet in the middle with Romney. But Trump has 82% approval in the republican most recently (https://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx). They are victims of fascism and the sad part is that they are literally unable to see it, because that's what fascism does. All the people on this forum who defended Trump were once people who saw him as miles beneath the office. The reason fascism is so dangerous is that it truly warps the minds of people who give in to it. You end up with broken people after its all said and done. I think you gotta try to appreciate what it means for 82% of a major party thinking Trump is totally fine because Democrats are the other option. The party of Romney is dead. I still think Romney is a shit bag for many reasons, but he is an actual person who seems to think government has non-zero value. But the conservative party you want to have doesn't exist.
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Popular positions have support from the middle. That's what 'middle' means. The middle supports stimulus checks, a $15 minimum wage, legal marijuana, and plenty of other measures. Opposition to those measures isn't centrist -- it's firmly right-wing.
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On February 02 2021 09:56 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2021 03:28 Mohdoo wrote:On February 02 2021 03:03 farvacola wrote:
Biden's FB just posted a demand that Congress pass his stimulus package as proposed, so I think he's sticking to his guns. I really hope so because I truly think its what voters want. They want vision and determination, just like the current republican party. Show people you know you're the boss right now and show them what you can do. You won the election, go start changing shit. Fundamentally, it is very important to recognize that our country has ****PERMANENTLY**** moved past the days of the middle determining things. We are NOT a united people, we do NOT agree on the future of the country and we will NOT be reaching bipartisan conclusions. Use these next 2 years to show what another 6 would look like. If you are elected the leader, maybe actually fucking lead and have some nuts. You say that, and preach that to your friends and family and children. That’s why there is no middle. I am conservative/libertarian, I am still willing to meet in the middle, and I still love all of you for your views on the left. I don’t have belief that we are permanently passed that stage, and I hope the millions like me will stop being disenfranchised by our party so we can work with yours. And I believe that there are those on the left who remain moderate and believe in the same things I do. I hope to help rebuild this nation by starting with my children and raising them to be party tolerant and appreciate all views of the world to the fullest. I just wanted to share this positivity with you as someone who truly believes in what I say and feel. You are willing to meet in the middle, but the Democrats are not negotiating with you. They are negotiating with the GOP, and that well has been truly poisoned.
There is no reason for the Democrats to even look towards the middle until the GOP proves that they are willing to have genuine negotiations in good faith.
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On February 02 2021 17:34 Severedevil wrote:
Popular positions have support from the middle. That's what 'middle' means. The middle supports stimulus checks, a $15 minimum wage, legal marijuana, and plenty of other measures. Opposition to those measures isn't centrist -- it's firmly right-wing.
Those positions align far more nicely with Democrats than Republicans though, as opposed to those positions being some sort of compromise / middle ground between two parties significantly distanced from those positions. That "middle" is the mainstream Democratic party.
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On February 02 2021 19:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2021 17:34 Severedevil wrote:
Popular positions have support from the middle. That's what 'middle' means. The middle supports stimulus checks, a $15 minimum wage, legal marijuana, and plenty of other measures. Opposition to those measures isn't centrist -- it's firmly right-wing. Those positions align far more nicely with Democrats than Republicans though, as opposed to those positions being some sort of compromise / middle ground between two parties significantly distanced from those positions. That "middle" is the mainstream Democratic party.
Which fits pretty well to my view of the US political system. The US has one party which is in the middle, and one party of hardcore rightwing crazypeople. The problem is that said crazypeople are also really good at playing the broken US system to get power, and somehow relevant parts of the population simply do not recognize them for what they are, and believe that you can be a "centrist" or anything along those lines and still vote republican.
A conservative should vote for the right wing of the democratic party. Republicans are not for them.
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On February 02 2021 21:34 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2021 19:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 02 2021 17:34 Severedevil wrote:
Popular positions have support from the middle. That's what 'middle' means. The middle supports stimulus checks, a $15 minimum wage, legal marijuana, and plenty of other measures. Opposition to those measures isn't centrist -- it's firmly right-wing. Those positions align far more nicely with Democrats than Republicans though, as opposed to those positions being some sort of compromise / middle ground between two parties significantly distanced from those positions. That "middle" is the mainstream Democratic party. Which fits pretty well to my view of the US political system. The US has one party which is in the middle, and one party of hardcore rightwing crazypeople. The problem is that said crazypeople are also really good at playing the broken US system to get power, and somehow relevant parts of the population simply do not recognize them for what they are, and believe that you can be a "centrist" or anything along those lines and still vote republican. A conservative should vote for the right wing of the democratic party. Republicans are not for them.
Agreed. And labels/categories like liberal, conservative, moderate, centrist, Democrat, and Republican have so many different meanings nowadays, that it's very likely that people get into semantics arguments over definitions rather than having a meaningful discussion about "what's your specific view on Topic X"?
Wikipedia alone cites at least 22 variants of the word "conservatism" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism ), and it's so easy to drown in these identities instead of having substantial dialogue.
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Northern Ireland25509 Posts
On February 02 2021 09:56 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2021 03:28 Mohdoo wrote:On February 02 2021 03:03 farvacola wrote:
Biden's FB just posted a demand that Congress pass his stimulus package as proposed, so I think he's sticking to his guns. I really hope so because I truly think its what voters want. They want vision and determination, just like the current republican party. Show people you know you're the boss right now and show them what you can do. You won the election, go start changing shit. Fundamentally, it is very important to recognize that our country has ****PERMANENTLY**** moved past the days of the middle determining things. We are NOT a united people, we do NOT agree on the future of the country and we will NOT be reaching bipartisan conclusions. Use these next 2 years to show what another 6 would look like. If you are elected the leader, maybe actually fucking lead and have some nuts. You say that, and preach that to your friends and family and children. That’s why there is no middle. I am conservative/libertarian, I am still willing to meet in the middle, and I still love all of you for your views on the left. I don’t have belief that we are permanently passed that stage, and I hope the millions like me will stop being disenfranchised by our party so we can work with yours. And I believe that there are those on the left who remain moderate and believe in the same things I do. I hope to help rebuild this nation by starting with my children and raising them to be party tolerant and appreciate all views of the world to the fullest. I just wanted to share this positivity with you as someone who truly believes in what I say and feel.
What does the middle look like there though, I mean where is the commonality?
On social issues there should be a lot, and there is between many regular libertarians and the regular right, although with the caveat that a lot of self-identified libertarians seem closer aligned with outright or crypto fascists making even that a bit complicated.
A huge problem is a pretty obvious one, many folks just aren’t being paid enough and it causes a huge amount of knock-on, be it social problems or impeding economic growth.
The left’s prescription to fix this is totally different from the non-libertarian right, and very different from the libertarians too, I’m not sure where the middle ground would even look like here.
One area I could think of are the likes of Walmart paying so badly that employees still need food stamps and other government assistance to get by. It’s in effect both outrageous to the left’s sensibilities, but also against true free market sensibilities at the same time, the government is in essence enabling big corporations to pay badly by taking up the slack.
I’m sure there are other areas of confluence, equally I’m struggling to find a huge amount.
Progress in terms of bipartisanship and unity would be considering other people’s prescriptions for society as merely wrong rather than evil or insidious NWO plots. I mean that’s how big the fracture is now.
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On February 02 2021 21:45 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2021 09:56 BisuDagger wrote:On February 02 2021 03:28 Mohdoo wrote:On February 02 2021 03:03 farvacola wrote:
Biden's FB just posted a demand that Congress pass his stimulus package as proposed, so I think he's sticking to his guns. I really hope so because I truly think its what voters want. They want vision and determination, just like the current republican party. Show people you know you're the boss right now and show them what you can do. You won the election, go start changing shit. Fundamentally, it is very important to recognize that our country has ****PERMANENTLY**** moved past the days of the middle determining things. We are NOT a united people, we do NOT agree on the future of the country and we will NOT be reaching bipartisan conclusions. Use these next 2 years to show what another 6 would look like. If you are elected the leader, maybe actually fucking lead and have some nuts. You say that, and preach that to your friends and family and children. That’s why there is no middle. I am conservative/libertarian, I am still willing to meet in the middle, and I still love all of you for your views on the left. I don’t have belief that we are permanently passed that stage, and I hope the millions like me will stop being disenfranchised by our party so we can work with yours. And I believe that there are those on the left who remain moderate and believe in the same things I do. I hope to help rebuild this nation by starting with my children and raising them to be party tolerant and appreciate all views of the world to the fullest. I just wanted to share this positivity with you as someone who truly believes in what I say and feel. What does the middle look like there though, I mean where is the commonality? On social issues there should be a lot, and there is between many regular libertarians and the regular right, although with the caveat that a lot of self-identified libertarians seem closer aligned with outright or crypto fascists making even that a bit complicated. A huge problem is a pretty obvious one, many folks just aren’t being paid enough and it causes a huge amount of knock-on, be it social problems or impeding economic growth. The left’s prescription to fix this is totally different from the non-libertarian right, and very different from the libertarians too, I’m not sure where the middle ground would even look like here. One area I could think of are the likes of Walmart paying so badly that employees still need food stamps and other government assistance to get by. It’s in effect both outrageous to the left’s sensibilities, but also against true free market sensibilities at the same time, the government is in essence enabling big corporations to pay badly by taking up the slack. I’m sure there are other areas of confluence, equally I’m struggling to find a huge amount. Progress in terms of bipartisanship and unity would be considering other people’s prescriptions for society as merely wrong rather than evil or insidious NWO plots. I mean that’s how big the fracture is now.
I think a lot of people on the left view bipartisanship as the republicans demanding that people come to them, do stuff their way, then still sabotaging it and blaming the democrats afterwards that the thing that they sabotaged didn't work. This is the reason bipartisanship currently has a bad image, and it is in an absolutely correct image in this situation.
If republicans really want bipartisanship, they need to be the ones who give up some stuff. And then they need to prove that they are actually willing to do stuff to improve the country rather than using everything as a tool to "win" at the US election system.
My current impression of that party is if they had the choice to make the country better, or to win a seat somewhere, they will always choose the latter. And with such a party, bipartisanship isn't possible. Bipartisanship requires a desire to improve the country from both parties.
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