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Netherlands45349 Posts
I think one of the things that is surely true is that the economic response in the US has been terrible given the resources that they have. Covid is twofold in that and economic depression and the consequences of eviction/lack of governmental support is far, far worse in the US compared to plenty of European countries.
Where you had many furlough programs, huge money to support struggling (small) businesses and people and care systems. Like fuck the Netherlands fucked up so hard on healthcare but atleast we did oke-ish on supporting businesses and the like.
Part of the US solved this economic issue by just letting shit be open and letting the already vurnerable foot the bill basically in all aspects (most of the support money getting received by large businesses). The unemployment figures are completely staggering compared to many european countries to my knowledge. Even if they are doing oke(very doubtful) on the issue when it comes to the deaths/hospital takein I don't think there is any question that the economic support side of it wasn't handled very well.
Its a lot easier to vote for the opponent when the government does fuck all, you are close to eviction and have to claim unemployment and are happy enough to have stuff to feed your family and keep a roof above your head. It is perhaps a bit unclear as to what degree Trump would be able to give more economic support to the poor with his presedential powers, but that doesn't matter as ultimately I think people can and do hold the president politically responsible for that.
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I'm not sure about that. US unemployment figures are higher but that's because they try to handle the economic fallout different than the EU. They prefer to increase and extend unemployment benefits instead of paying most of the wages of companies in trouble. The US stimulus package was also much larger than the European ones and the FED still had room to cut rates.
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United Kingdom10026 Posts
Has anyone seen Lin Wood's twitter?
Who is this guy? Just some conspiracy theorist? I heard he's a well known lawyer.
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Lin Wood's claim to fame can traced to his representation of Richard Jewell, the dude who was falsely accused of the '96 Olympics bombing in Atlanta. He also repped Jon Benet Ramsey's parents and before Trump, he had the reputation of a wonky, off-color guy who was a top-notch defamation lawyer. A couple years ago or so, he became significantly more unhinged, it seems.
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United Kingdom10026 Posts
On January 05 2021 03:16 farvacola wrote:
Lin Wood's claim to fame can traced to his representation of Richard Jewell, the dude who was falsely accused of the '96 Olympics bombing in Atlanta. He also repped Jon Benet Ramsey's parents and before Trump, he had the reputation of a wonky, off-color guy who was a top-notch defamation lawyer. A couple years ago or so, he became significantly more unhinged, it seems.
He claims to have access to videos related to Epstein that are being used for blackmail by intelligence services.
He also claims to have shared these with others.
Massive claims, but he also seems to be a QAnon type so I don't trust him at all.
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He also claims that Epstein is still alive. The very best people ladies and gents
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United Kingdom10026 Posts
On January 05 2021 03:20 Erasme wrote:
He also claims that Epstein is still alive. The very best people ladies and gents
I wouldn't be so utterly sure about anything regarding this case.
Its one of those where a conspiracy is 100% taking place, its just a case of how big and who's involved. To think Epstein was doing this all off his own back with no state involvement is absolutely ludicrous.
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On January 05 2021 02:50 RvB wrote:
I'm not sure about that. US unemployment figures are higher but that's because they try to handle the economic fallout different than the EU. They prefer to increase and extend unemployment benefits instead of paying most of the wages of companies in trouble. The US stimulus package was also much larger than the European ones and the FED still had room to cut rates. Stimulus to who tho?
Because if you pay stimulus to companies that sack workers because they can't work anyway then that isn't helping the 'common man', just lining the pockets of CEO's.
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Giving big companies extra money because you want them to still pay wages doesn't mean they're going to take that money and spend it on wages, it means they're going to take the money. That's about it. It's all the bottom line.
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On January 05 2021 02:32 Kipsate wrote:
I think one of the things that is surely true is that the economic response in the US has been terrible given the resources that they have. Covid is twofold in that and economic depression and the consequences of eviction/lack of governmental support is far, far worse in the US compared to plenty of European countries.
Where you had many furlough programs, huge money to support struggling (small) businesses and people and care systems. Like fuck the Netherlands fucked up so hard on healthcare but atleast we did oke-ish on supporting businesses and the like.
I think this is the real story of how Trump failed things. Looking at any "comparable" country doesn't actually make the US look all that bad by death or infection rate despite the many half-baked arguments made so far that claim that it does. But it's hard to find a worse example of the handling of the economic aspect of the crisis than what the US has done. Everyone except big business has basically been hung out to dry.
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United States44450 Posts
On January 05 2021 03:41 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2021 02:32 Kipsate wrote:
I think one of the things that is surely true is that the economic response in the US has been terrible given the resources that they have. Covid is twofold in that and economic depression and the consequences of eviction/lack of governmental support is far, far worse in the US compared to plenty of European countries.
Where you had many furlough programs, huge money to support struggling (small) businesses and people and care systems. Like fuck the Netherlands fucked up so hard on healthcare but atleast we did oke-ish on supporting businesses and the like. I think this is the real story of how Trump failed things. Looking at any "comparable" country doesn't actually make the US look all that bad by death or infection rate despite the many half-baked arguments made so far that claim that it does. But it's hard to find a worse example of the handling of the economic aspect of the crisis than what the US has done. Everyone except big business has basically been hung out to dry.
Trump was briefed on the crisis early and the only government response was insider trading. There was no attempt made to even limit international travel until after domestic community spread had started. No attempt to marshal resources to get PPE or to limit non essential travel or to track and trace, or even to coordinate interstate responses. We had the Florida governor insisting there was no problem to ingratiate himself with Trump and Trump insisting there was no problem because the governor said so in a perfect loop. We had Trump refusing to wear masks on televised events and actually standing alongside people during the press conference when he announced social distancing. We had Trump actively spreading misinformation about how an aquarium fish medicine was a miracle cure (it wasn't) and suggesting that a combination of bleach and inserting UV lights "inside the body" might be the answer. It was all meant to be over by Easter, then the heat of May would stop it, then it was going to disappear like a miracle, then it was going to be gone by Fall, then it was going to fade away, then it was going to be eradicated with a vaccine, then it was going to disappear without a vaccine, then "This thing’s going away. It will go away like things go away", then it'll be gone soon, then it's ending anyway. His stance throughout the crisis has been that it's not a real problem and that it'll disappear without any government intervention.
Literally all he needed to do was go on tv and explain that we're dealing with an infectious disease and that if we all improve our personal hygiene a little bit by washing our hands, using sanitizer, and wearing masks we can lessen the impact but he couldn't even do that. He literally politicized personal hygiene and rallied half the country in the "against" camp during a pandemic. Had Obama been succeeded by his pet dog Sunny we would literally have had a better coronavirus response because at least then the personal hygiene message coming from the Whitehouse would have been limited to licking your own balls.
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Had Obama been succeeded by his pet dog Sunny we would literally have had a better coronavirus response because at least then the personal hygiene message coming from the Whitehouse would have been limited to licking your own balls.
You just made my day, thanks!
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Best measure of performance is relative to what was possible, not what happened elsewhere.
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On January 05 2021 03:31 NewSunshine wrote:
Giving big companies extra money because you want them to still pay wages doesn't mean they're going to take that money and spend it on wages, it means they're going to take the money. That's about it. It's all the bottom line.
Not sure how other EU countries are handling it, but in Germany they pay a percentage of the normal wages of people with shortened hours. So they aren't paying the companies directly afaik.
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On January 05 2021 03:24 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2021 03:20 Erasme wrote:
He also claims that Epstein is still alive. The very best people ladies and gents I wouldn't be so utterly sure about anything regarding this case. Its one of those where a conspiracy is 100% taking place, its just a case of how big and who's involved. To think Epstein was doing this all off his own back with no state involvement is absolutely ludicrous.
Sure, let's think about it. If Epstein was still alive, revealing it on twitter probably wouldn't be good for your lifespan. An utterly idiotic move either way.
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On January 05 2021 05:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Best measure of performance is relative to what was possible, not what happened elsewhere.
Easily said, much less easily made real. Truth is that the spread of the coronavirus ended up being so insidious that not a lot of countries ended up looking very effective in their response by the one-year mark. Success seems to be far more fleeting than failure in the long game of containment and mitigation.
You wouldn't be wrong to point to lots of mistakes that were made that exacerbated the infection and death rates, some of which were indefensible. It would be fair to also make note of some of the key successes and the infrastructural problems that nothing could be done about. One way or another, a remarkably large swathe of countries ended up in the same spot, leaving the US to look unremarkable despite its leadership's many obvious failings. I find it hard to justify saying "Trump did a uniquely bad job at managing the medical response" in light of that, and none of the arguments so far have made a meaningful case to the contrary. When there's lots of ways to fail and few ways to succeed, failure is the norm. It's really quite vapid to focus on the "what could have been" that didn't play out in almost any comparable country.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On January 05 2021 05:33 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +Had Obama been succeeded by his pet dog Sunny we would literally have had a better coronavirus response because at least then the personal hygiene message coming from the Whitehouse would have been limited to licking your own balls. You just made my day, thanks!
+1, although I did have to clean up after spitting my coffee everywhere
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On January 05 2021 05:41 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2021 03:31 NewSunshine wrote:
Giving big companies extra money because you want them to still pay wages doesn't mean they're going to take that money and spend it on wages, it means they're going to take the money. That's about it. It's all the bottom line. Not sure how other EU countries are handling it, but in Germany they pay a percentage of the normal wages of people with shortened hours. So they aren't paying the companies directly afaik.
We managed to convince our populace that Trickle-Down Economics was anything but a giant fucking scam, so what you're describing not only sounds like a breath of fresh air, it also sounds very unusual. Our government has, is, and will 100% give gigantic sums to corporations, no questions asked, and under the pretense of helping employees, only to either feign shock or say nothing at all when they just pocket the money. Business as usual for the ruling class in America.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On January 05 2021 06:34 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2021 05:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Best measure of performance is relative to what was possible, not what happened elsewhere. Easily said, much less easily made real. Truth is that the spread of the coronavirus ended up being so insidious that not a lot of countries ended up looking very effective in their response by the one-year mark. Success seems to be far more fleeting than failure in the long game of containment and mitigation. You wouldn't be wrong to point to lots of mistakes that were made that exacerbated the infection and death rates, some of which were indefensible. It would be fair to also make note of some of the key successes and the infrastructural problems that nothing could be done about. One way or another, a remarkably large swathe of countries ended up in the same spot, leaving the US to look unremarkable despite its leadership's many obvious failings. I find it hard to justify saying "Trump did a uniquely bad job at managing the medical response" in light of that, and none of the arguments so far have made a meaningful case to the contrary. When there's lots of ways to fail and few ways to succeed, failure is the norm. It's really quite vapid to focus on the "what could have been" that didn't play out in almost any comparable country.
It’s not like crossroads were reached with many unknowns and we’re sitting bemoaning the road not taken. That kind of navel gazing after the fact with the benefit of hindsight is rather futile, agreed there.
Smarter people than I will pore over this with a fine toothcomb when it finally does settle down, and perhaps short of locking people up results in comparable nations will level out to some kind of mean.
Specifically the Trump administration vs the wider US response at every juncture where leadership and sound judgement were required, almost every time it wasn’t.
Aside from practicalities of particular note has been the downplaying of the virus, using it for political purposes, giving terrible public advice etc etc that is actually quite unique amongst leadership of comparable nations.
Which is probably the worst thing of all given that as I said, short of authoritarian crackdowns there is probably some average kind of result that is realistic with a combination of some curtailing of personal freedoms plus the population buying in and hitting the trenches.
If you’re not failing by incompetence but in actual intent and messaging in trying to cultivate that public buy-in it is a shocking abrogation of responsibility.
Now that is pretty unique to the States, we shall see if that does have an appreciable effect in the longer-term. If I was a betting man, which thankfully for my bank balance I am not, the States has more Covid skeptics than elsewhere, partly because of that and I don’t think that bodes well in terms of the compliance needed in the public sphere
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EPT
