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On October 03 2020 01:40 Arghmyliver wrote:
45 dies before election we get Pence who is much worse. 45 ticket could still win regardless in which case we get Pence for 4 years which is awful. Overall hope it doesn't die until after it's lost and comes to realize the ignominy associated with its name.
Edit: Grammar
I don't even know if Pence is worse anymore. How do you get worse than Trump?
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I think that Pence would at least fill government positions with somewhat competent people rather than just campaign donors and absolute loyalists as Trump has. Yes he would be extremely socially regressive but I think there would at least be a more functional government under him. Much of Trump's damage has come from the extent to which he has consolidated power to himself. I don't know if Pence would do the same.
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Yeah, a narcissistic buffoon or a villain from Handmaid's Tales, Republicans are really treating us. Despite Pence being such a horrendous individual, I don't think he would massacre american institutions and democracy the way Trump does.
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I mean, for me, it comes down to that: someone who support Pence has polar opposite opinions on everything than me, but, well, people do have different opinion. Someone who support Trump doesn't just have different opinions: he is ready to give power to a completely depraved human being. I can respect a Pence supporter, although I would vehemently oppose his worldview. I can't respect a Trump supporter. To be ok enough with someone being such a piece of s... to vote for him speaks volumes about your own character and your own morality.
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Pence would not be worse imo, the regressive things he devotes himself to are mostly already being carried out by the Trump admin and he'd do less harm relative to all of the things breaking because of sheer neglect.
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On October 03 2020 02:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Yeah, a narcissistic buffoon or a villain from Handmaid's Tales, Republicans are really treating us. Despite Pence being such a horrendous individual, I don't think he would massacre american institutions and democracy the way Trump does.
It is indeed impressive. Maybe republicans are running a long-term experiment about how evil a party can be and still be elected?
The list of people that i would prefer the republicans to is getting shorter and shorter. I am currently seriously considering whether i would vote for Darth Vader over Trump. I would definitively vote for Camacho over Trump.
I am seriously staring at the US with utter confusion. Nothing that happens there makes any sense anymore. It is utterly inexplicable to me that people like Pence or Trump could be elected, or that a party like the republicans could be in power of anything.
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On October 03 2020 02:12 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2020 02:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 03 2020 01:48 PhoenixVoid wrote:Joe and Jill Biden tested negative.If Trump's case remains mild, I'm not convinced this alters the fundamentals of the race that much. He loses out on rallies, almost certainly misses the second debate and probably the third debate and adds to a week of bad press, but voters' minds are so calcified and the race has remained remarkably steady throughout. A Biden voter or Biden-leaning person probably looks at this and has a bit of schadenfreude and will vote. A Trump voter or Trump-leaning person sees this and wishes him good health or thinks this is the Deep State out to get him, and will vote. Trump recovers, continues to project that macho energy he is campaigning on and maybe even garners a small bump in sympathy approval. Now, if Trump's case worsens and is incapacitated, or faces the worst case scenario, well, that is something far beyond my armchair political scientist mind to consider. They've tested negative for now. If Trump did infect Biden it might well take a few more days (possibly up to 5 more) before Biden would build up enough of a viral load to test positive. Depends how the test was done. If they showed up to a university, a test could be done very quickly with insane accuracy. When you only need to test 1 person and cost is irrelevant, all of the typical constraints of testing vanish. Molecular biology conducted by a laboratory of PhDs is significantly more capable than test kits. Edit: Also, I think people are completely nuts for saying Pence is worse. Trump's major damage has been entirely cultural. I would say the pain Trump has inflicted on minorities is mostly cultural compared to what he's done through legislation.
It's a PCR test--the risk of false negatives is there no matter how much tech you throw at it. The swab just might not capture enough SARS-CoV-2.
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On October 03 2020 02:19 Nevuk wrote:
Pence would definitely be better than Trump. He'd also be less likely to get elected - charismatic the man is not.
It’s good to have some lefty debate on Trump-Pence. Too often only GH is willing to offer a contrary opinion (inner lefty fights on the left excluded, of course)
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What about you ? Which one would you rather have ?
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On October 03 2020 02:50 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2020 02:12 Mohdoo wrote:On October 03 2020 02:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 03 2020 01:48 PhoenixVoid wrote:Joe and Jill Biden tested negative.If Trump's case remains mild, I'm not convinced this alters the fundamentals of the race that much. He loses out on rallies, almost certainly misses the second debate and probably the third debate and adds to a week of bad press, but voters' minds are so calcified and the race has remained remarkably steady throughout. A Biden voter or Biden-leaning person probably looks at this and has a bit of schadenfreude and will vote. A Trump voter or Trump-leaning person sees this and wishes him good health or thinks this is the Deep State out to get him, and will vote. Trump recovers, continues to project that macho energy he is campaigning on and maybe even garners a small bump in sympathy approval. Now, if Trump's case worsens and is incapacitated, or faces the worst case scenario, well, that is something far beyond my armchair political scientist mind to consider. They've tested negative for now. If Trump did infect Biden it might well take a few more days (possibly up to 5 more) before Biden would build up enough of a viral load to test positive. Depends how the test was done. If they showed up to a university, a test could be done very quickly with insane accuracy. When you only need to test 1 person and cost is irrelevant, all of the typical constraints of testing vanish. Molecular biology conducted by a laboratory of PhDs is significantly more capable than test kits. Edit: Also, I think people are completely nuts for saying Pence is worse. Trump's major damage has been entirely cultural. I would say the pain Trump has inflicted on minorities is mostly cultural compared to what he's done through legislation. It's a PCR test--the risk of false negatives is there no matter how much tech you throw at it. The swab just might not capture enough SARS-CoV-2.
Everything that comes right before the PCR has quite a bit of flexibility and different PCR equipment has wildly different capabilities. There are also other methods of concentrating and detecting proteins that could be used if you literally threw a university at the problem.
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Northern Ireland27463 Posts
I’d take Pence personally. Where he is worse he doesn’t have a huge amount of wriggle room, and he doesn’t have Trump’s cult of ‘personality’ with all the destruction that brings.
Hopefully Trump’s ascent is an aberration rather than the irreversible opening of Pandora’s box. Not sure I can handle the rest of my life having arguments about vaccines and that everything is fake news.
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Problem with 45 dying before election is Pence takes control and they can probably at that point risk deploying military and stalling the election under guise of "keeping the peace."
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On October 03 2020 03:23 Arghmyliver wrote:
Problem with 45 dying before election is Pence takes control and they can probably at that point risk deploying military and stalling the election under guise of "keeping the peace." 1) the federal government has no control over the election, states decided all that and I don't see the Democratic states pausing an election just because Republican's find it inconvenient.
2) The constitution doesn't care about postponing an election. Middag Jan 20th the current President (be it Trump or Pence) is done, no matter the state of an election or not. In fact I believe without a President or VP-elect Pelosi would become the next POTUS. Pretty sure no Republican wants that to happen.
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An important thing to point out is that presidency expires, it isn't indefinite. The stuff about committing to a peaceful transition is to prevent it being messy, not to prevent him from staying. No matter what, current presidency expires. Its just a matter of what cultural damage is done by him leaving.
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On October 03 2020 03:31 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2020 03:23 Arghmyliver wrote:
Problem with 45 dying before election is Pence takes control and they can probably at that point risk deploying military and stalling the election under guise of "keeping the peace." 1) the federal government has no control over the election, states decided all that and I don't see the Democratic states pausing an election just because Republican's find it inconvenient. 2) The constitution doesn't care about postponing an election. Middag Jan 20th the current President (be it Trump or Pence) is done, no matter the state of an election or not. In fact I believe without a President or VP-elect Pelosi would become the next POTUS. Pretty sure no Republican wants that to happen.
Pence is way more likely to effectively attempt to delay/extend term expiry stall/falsify election results. If it came to such an (albeit unlikely) scenario, I would argue that it would be more likely for the GOP to attempt to stopgap with some kind of appointed layover position than turn power over to Pelosi as you say.
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I mean, the main thing limiting Trump's ability to do irreversible damage to the apparatus of government is that the man couldn't pass an AP Government exam and agrees with the last person to talk to him on the best course of action most of the time (even if that person is a 25 year old intern). Any attempts to meaningfully subvert the democratic process while he is in direct control are about as likely to succeed as Kanye's campaign because half of them are illegal and half of them are totally ineffective.
Other people ending up in control (either directly or by convincing him to let them "implement his ideas") is pretty much the only way I see anything effective happening. After all, the most effective voter suppression tactics historically have all come at the state level.
Also: apparently Trump's entire debate prep team met indoors without masks. Oopsie doodle.
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People way overstate the number of Washington DC executive officials that will not honor their oath to the constitution. Trump leaves in January unless enough electors select him from among the states, period. The reins of power get pulled from him even if there isn't a conclusive result by that time (unlikely, given the distance between voting day and inauguration day).
Complain away about his whiny rhetoric, because he has gone overboard on multiple occasions. He's still leaving even if he argues to the last minute that it was an illegitimate loss.
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Trump leaves in January unless enough electors select him from among the states, period. That a subtle endorsement of the strategy for faithless electors if needed?
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On October 03 2020 04:01 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2020 03:31 Gorsameth wrote:On October 03 2020 03:23 Arghmyliver wrote:
Problem with 45 dying before election is Pence takes control and they can probably at that point risk deploying military and stalling the election under guise of "keeping the peace." 1) the federal government has no control over the election, states decided all that and I don't see the Democratic states pausing an election just because Republican's find it inconvenient. 2) The constitution doesn't care about postponing an election. Middag Jan 20th the current President (be it Trump or Pence) is done, no matter the state of an election or not. In fact I believe without a President or VP-elect Pelosi would become the next POTUS. Pretty sure no Republican wants that to happen. Pence is way more likely to effectively attempt to delay/extend term expiry stall/falsify election results. If it came to such an (albeit unlikely) scenario, I would argue that it would be more likely for the GOP to attempt to stopgap with some kind of appointed layover position than turn power over to Pelosi as you say. term expiring is in the constitution, you can't get around it without amending the constitution which requires the house, senate and a (2/3?) majority of states.
Same with any attempt at a stopgap.
The US is not a country where your President until after the next election. The Presidential term is hard written to end at noon Jan 20th.
To stay President you need to win the electoral college vote. That is why Trump floated the ball for calling the results into question, getting Republican controlled states to appoint their own electors who would ignore the vote and appoint Trump as the winner.
Because there is no other possible path to being President on Jan 21st short of a full on coup d'etat.
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On October 03 2020 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2020 04:01 Arghmyliver wrote:On October 03 2020 03:31 Gorsameth wrote:On October 03 2020 03:23 Arghmyliver wrote:
Problem with 45 dying before election is Pence takes control and they can probably at that point risk deploying military and stalling the election under guise of "keeping the peace." 1) the federal government has no control over the election, states decided all that and I don't see the Democratic states pausing an election just because Republican's find it inconvenient. 2) The constitution doesn't care about postponing an election. Middag Jan 20th the current President (be it Trump or Pence) is done, no matter the state of an election or not. In fact I believe without a President or VP-elect Pelosi would become the next POTUS. Pretty sure no Republican wants that to happen. Pence is way more likely to effectively attempt to delay/extend term expiry stall/falsify election results. If it came to such an (albeit unlikely) scenario, I would argue that it would be more likely for the GOP to attempt to stopgap with some kind of appointed layover position than turn power over to Pelosi as you say. term expiring is in the constitution, you can't get around it without amending the constitution which requires the house, senate and a (2/3?) majority of states. Same with any attempt at a stopgap. The US is not a country where your President until after the next election. The Presidential term is hard written to end at noon Jan 20th. To stay President you need to win the electoral college vote. That is why Trump floated the ball for calling the results into question, getting Republican controlled states to appoint their own electors who would ignore the vote and appoint Trump as the winner. Because there is no other possible path to being President on Jan 21st short of a full on coup d'etat.
If the matter were to come before SCOTUS, I expect it would see things along those lines.
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EPT
