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On September 01 2020 02:13 Wombat_NornIron wrote:
Almost all of the corporate posturing etc came after shit hit the fan and it became a huge emotive issue. Though not so much when looting and violence is factored in, but the majority of folks support some manifestation of the ‘black lives matter’ slogan and corporate America bent with the direction of the wind.
I’m not seeing much of a pattern beyond something reactive.
Let’s say we can put Pandora back in her box for a bit, take BLM out of it, can rein in the violence etc. What then? Do you think the police need reform and in what manner?
Regarding the Kenosha shootings, maybe? Assuming he’s being honest about his motivations.
Be it Arbery, this, George Zimmerman etc etc frequently the only thing worse than police is people LARPing as police and fucking it up even more.
It’s idiotic behaviour, even if ultimately the scenario in which self defence was justified, everything leading up to this was completely avoidable.
Protests and disturbances aren’t exactly bastions of people under control of their emotional responses, but hey let’s add the accelerant of people with guns walking around.
You’d have to take back more than the violence for police reform. Defund/redirect funds from the police. Social media shaming for not doing the black boxes. Bailout funds for violent rioters (obviously not necessary if you remove the violence). The overcharging of the cop.
You’d get the reform over a year if all that was removed and it was focused on reform and restart. The no-knock warrant issue was already proposed by Rand Paul to be taken care of nationally, and actually just changed in Louisville, KY (Breonna Tailor was killed as part of one).
And one-sided unopposed or barely apposed rioting is the breeding ground for vigilante groups. Look at the videos of business owners risking their lives to protect their life’s work. If the cops can’t control the mob, or wait a couple days to ask for national guard help, what do you expect the law-abiding to do? (None of this should be taken to be a defense of crossing state lines and all that)
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Northern Ireland26764 Posts
On September 01 2020 02:54 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2020 02:13 Wombat_NornIron wrote:
Almost all of the corporate posturing etc came after shit hit the fan and it became a huge emotive issue. Though not so much when looting and violence is factored in, but the majority of folks support some manifestation of the ‘black lives matter’ slogan and corporate America bent with the direction of the wind.
I’m not seeing much of a pattern beyond something reactive.
Let’s say we can put Pandora back in her box for a bit, take BLM out of it, can rein in the violence etc. What then? Do you think the police need reform and in what manner?
Regarding the Kenosha shootings, maybe? Assuming he’s being honest about his motivations.
Be it Arbery, this, George Zimmerman etc etc frequently the only thing worse than police is people LARPing as police and fucking it up even more.
It’s idiotic behaviour, even if ultimately the scenario in which self defence was justified, everything leading up to this was completely avoidable.
Protests and disturbances aren’t exactly bastions of people under control of their emotional responses, but hey let’s add the accelerant of people with guns walking around.
You’d have to take back more than the violence for police reform. Defund/redirect funds from the police. Social media shaming for not doing the black boxes. Bailout funds for violent rioters (obviously not necessary if you remove the violence). The overcharging of the cop. You’d get the reform over a year if all that was removed and it was focused on reform and restart. The no-knock warrant issue was already proposed by Rand Paul to be taken care of nationally, and actually just changed in Louisville, KY (Breonna Tailor was killed as part of one). And one-sided unopposed or barely apposed rioting is the breeding ground for vigilante groups. Look at the videos of business owners risking their lives to protect their life’s work. If the cops can’t control the mob, or wait a couple days to ask for national guard help, what do you expect the law-abiding to do? (None of this should be taken to be a defense of crossing state lines and all that)
Don’t really disagree with much of that, albeit from a different perspectives on elements. Too big a portion of the populace don’t even think police need reform for the more radical stuff to get through.
I do think the extended civil unrest has pushed the issue enough to get some traction and that it was perhaps necessary to get to this stage. But it’s certainly becoming detrimental now if polling is to be believed, the longer it goes on the less the ‘it’s a spontaneous outburst of emotion, good luck controlling that’ really lands.
That aside as I’ve previously said in the thread I’m content with people defending things. My issue is more that people are clearly going down to engage in political street battles. It’s a thin enough line differentiating them but it’s still a distinction I’d consider important.
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On September 01 2020 04:01 Wombat_NornIron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2020 02:54 Danglars wrote:On September 01 2020 02:13 Wombat_NornIron wrote:
Almost all of the corporate posturing etc came after shit hit the fan and it became a huge emotive issue. Though not so much when looting and violence is factored in, but the majority of folks support some manifestation of the ‘black lives matter’ slogan and corporate America bent with the direction of the wind.
I’m not seeing much of a pattern beyond something reactive.
Let’s say we can put Pandora back in her box for a bit, take BLM out of it, can rein in the violence etc. What then? Do you think the police need reform and in what manner?
Regarding the Kenosha shootings, maybe? Assuming he’s being honest about his motivations.
Be it Arbery, this, George Zimmerman etc etc frequently the only thing worse than police is people LARPing as police and fucking it up even more.
It’s idiotic behaviour, even if ultimately the scenario in which self defence was justified, everything leading up to this was completely avoidable.
Protests and disturbances aren’t exactly bastions of people under control of their emotional responses, but hey let’s add the accelerant of people with guns walking around.
You’d have to take back more than the violence for police reform. Defund/redirect funds from the police. Social media shaming for not doing the black boxes. Bailout funds for violent rioters (obviously not necessary if you remove the violence). The overcharging of the cop. You’d get the reform over a year if all that was removed and it was focused on reform and restart. The no-knock warrant issue was already proposed by Rand Paul to be taken care of nationally, and actually just changed in Louisville, KY (Breonna Tailor was killed as part of one). And one-sided unopposed or barely apposed rioting is the breeding ground for vigilante groups. Look at the videos of business owners risking their lives to protect their life’s work. If the cops can’t control the mob, or wait a couple days to ask for national guard help, what do you expect the law-abiding to do? (None of this should be taken to be a defense of crossing state lines and all that) Don’t really disagree with much of that, albeit from a different perspectives on elements. Too big a portion of the populace don’t even think police need reform for the more radical stuff to get through. I do think the extended civil unrest has pushed the issue enough to get some traction and that it was perhaps necessary to get to this stage. But it’s certainly becoming detrimental now if polling is to be believed, the longer it goes on the less the ‘it’s a spontaneous outburst of emotion, good luck controlling that’ really lands. That aside as I’ve previously said in the thread I’m content with people defending things. My issue is more that people are clearly going down to engage in political street battles. It’s a thin enough line differentiating them but it’s still a distinction I’d consider important. The problem with asking the protesters to stop now and allow reforms to be put in place is that there is no answer to the inevitable question "and what if the reforms don't come, like last time, and the time before that, and the time before that".
This is a systemic issue that goes back pretty much to the very beginning, these aren't the first protests and I bet they aren't the first time that things have looked promising only to end up with little to no progress.
If the mayor wants riots to stop, he needs to implement reforms and since has been going on for 4 months? He should have been implementing reforms months ago.
(4 months of nightly protests and still nothing is being done? no wonder they are still protesting and won't stop until serious steps are taken)
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I don't want to sound like GH, but the only way forward that has worked for afro americans, is protesting. Unfortunatly, just dying doesn't do it, or it would've been fixed decades ago.
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On September 01 2020 04:23 Erasme wrote:
I don't want to sound like GH, but the only way forward that has worked for afro americans, is protesting. Unfortunatly, just dying doesn't do it, or it would've been fixed decades ago.
There is no historical precedent in the US for Black People being treated better without violent protest. Not a single example. Everyone whining about violent protest is being ridiculous. Violent protests are bad, but they are a natural result of refusing to treat Black People as humans. Humans will always fight for their rights. Either give them or have them taken over the course of a long time. It has never been reasonable to ask Black People to wait to be treated as humans.
If someone chose to never change the oil in their car, then cursed at their car when it stopped working, it would be equally reasonable as people whining about riots. There is not a single baby born with a desire to riot. It is done out of necessity, when backs are against the wall. People are broken throughout their lives and driven to rioting.
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Sorry to interrupt, but I read some good news from President Trump's retweet. Apparently only 9000 people have died from covid in the US.
And I thought it was a serious crisis.
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On September 01 2020 04:50 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2020 04:23 Erasme wrote:
I don't want to sound like GH, but the only way forward that has worked for afro americans, is protesting. Unfortunatly, just dying doesn't do it, or it would've been fixed decades ago. There is no historical precedent in the US for Black People being treated better without violent protest. Not a single example. Everyone whining about violent protest is being ridiculous. Violent protests are bad, but they are a natural result of refusing to treat Black People as humans. Humans will always fight for their rights. Either give them or have them taken over the course of a long time. It has never been reasonable to ask Black People to wait to be treated as humans. If someone chose to never change the oil in their car, then cursed at their car when it stopped working, it would be equally reasonable as people whining about riots. There is not a single baby born with a desire to riot. It is done out of necessity, when backs are against the wall. People are broken throughout their lives and driven to rioting.
This seems like poor crowd psychology and a little vague about what it means to be (treated like) a human.
One thing that's interesting to think about is why Cops and Live PD were such popular shows with white audiences before they were canceled. Do you think white viewers saw white suspects on those shows as humans and non-white suspects as inhuman/non-human?
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On September 01 2020 05:56 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2020 04:50 Mohdoo wrote:On September 01 2020 04:23 Erasme wrote:
I don't want to sound like GH, but the only way forward that has worked for afro americans, is protesting. Unfortunatly, just dying doesn't do it, or it would've been fixed decades ago. There is no historical precedent in the US for Black People being treated better without violent protest. Not a single example. Everyone whining about violent protest is being ridiculous. Violent protests are bad, but they are a natural result of refusing to treat Black People as humans. Humans will always fight for their rights. Either give them or have them taken over the course of a long time. It has never been reasonable to ask Black People to wait to be treated as humans. If someone chose to never change the oil in their car, then cursed at their car when it stopped working, it would be equally reasonable as people whining about riots. There is not a single baby born with a desire to riot. It is done out of necessity, when backs are against the wall. People are broken throughout their lives and driven to rioting. This seems like poor crowd psychology and a little vague about what it means to be (treated like) a human. One thing that's interesting to think about is why Cops and Live PD were such popular shows with white audiences before they were canceled. Do you think white viewers saw white suspects on those shows as humans and non-white suspects as inhuman/non-human?
The way white people are generally treated in American society is what I consider treated as a human. Anything less than the best scenario represents injustice. There is no "reasonable amount of racism" that people should endure.
And because the FBI has a well documented prevalence of white supremacy in police forces, our first step should be eliminate hate groups from government institutions. Until we can show that white supremacy has been eliminated from police forces, we need to diminish the amount of harm police can do by cutting funding and adding additional accountability.
In short, the US government is currently violating the social contract it has with Black People. It must meet the contract. Until then, justice is absent.
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Northern Ireland26764 Posts
On September 01 2020 05:56 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2020 04:50 Mohdoo wrote:On September 01 2020 04:23 Erasme wrote:
I don't want to sound like GH, but the only way forward that has worked for afro americans, is protesting. Unfortunatly, just dying doesn't do it, or it would've been fixed decades ago. There is no historical precedent in the US for Black People being treated better without violent protest. Not a single example. Everyone whining about violent protest is being ridiculous. Violent protests are bad, but they are a natural result of refusing to treat Black People as humans. Humans will always fight for their rights. Either give them or have them taken over the course of a long time. It has never been reasonable to ask Black People to wait to be treated as humans. If someone chose to never change the oil in their car, then cursed at their car when it stopped working, it would be equally reasonable as people whining about riots. There is not a single baby born with a desire to riot. It is done out of necessity, when backs are against the wall. People are broken throughout their lives and driven to rioting. This seems like poor crowd psychology and a little vague about what it means to be (treated like) a human. One thing that's interesting to think about is why Cops and Live PD were such popular shows with white audiences before they were canceled. Do you think white viewers saw white suspects on those shows as humans and non-white suspects as inhuman/non-human?
Probably largely equally, although probably with a sense of superiority. At least viewing them as people who’ve transgressed the social contract and whom it is satisfying to watch them get their comeuppance.
I mean aside from reality shows about police, there’s fictional ones or even superhero fodder, same sort of appeal. There are bad guys, they must be stopped behaving like bad guys by the good guys.
I’m expressing it pretty badly but I think that’s the base appeal anyway.
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MLK's success came alongside a wholesome rejection of Malcolm X violence and pro-black separation. I don't see any truth to someone here that says "There is no historical precedent in the US for Black People being treated better without violent protest." It denies a very important black figure in American history, and his protest that was distinguished by nonviolent protest. And if whatever point you're trying to make recasts history to a simpler timeline, then I don't think you should be taken seriously in what you want to achieve and how you're going to achieve it.
That's the first major point I hope more people come to realize. BLM just crashed in the polls after the violence, both meaning that there was significant support to bring demanded reforms, and significant loss when leaders or far left groups rejected that possibility coming without conflict and violence. If I came to someone here with a great injustice, and promised no peace for the citizens of the cities and states where that injustice continued, is that the pained resolution of a downtrodden emissary from the oppressed, or a threat of violence coming against the Democracy that still operates?
Written in the words of someone a little more attached to the causes and virtues of the left:
I’m a supporter of the motives of the good folks involved with the Black Lives Matter movement. But I’m equally repelled by the insistent attempt by BLM and its ideological founders to malign and dismiss the huge progress we’ve made, to re-describe the American experiment in freedom as one utterly defined by racism, and to call the most tolerant country on the planet, with unprecedented demographic diversity, a form of “white supremacy”. I’m tired of hearing Kamala Harris say, as she did yesterday: “The reality is that the life of a black person in America has never been treated as fully human.” This is what Trump has long defended as “truthful hyperbole” — which is a euphemism for a lie.
But here’s one thing I have absolutely no conflict about. Rioting and lawlessness is evil. And any civil authority that permits, condones or dismisses violence, looting and mayhem in the streets disqualifies itself from any legitimacy. [...]
I don’t think I’m the only one, as even the Democrats seem now to realize. And this massive blindspot is not hard to understand. When a political party finds itself so wedded to a new and potent ideology it cannot call out violence when it sees it, then it is walking straight into a trap. When the discourse on the left has become one in which scholars and editors and Tweeters vie with one another to up the ante on how inherently evil America has always been, redescribe it as a slaveocracy, and endorse racist books that foment the most egregious stereotypes about “whiteness”, most ordinary people, who love their country and are mostly proud of its past, will rightly balk. One of the most devastating lines in president Trump’s convention speech last night was this: “Tonight, I ask you a very simple question: How can the Democrat Party ask to lead our country when it spends so much time tearing down our country?” A cheap shot, yes. But in the current context, a political bullseye.
I'm from the right, and think it's a properly racist ideology putting guilt on the descendents of people with the same skin color as oppressors. I think people from the left should find something brave within themselves that opposes the "dialogue is over" rhetoric or excuses violence. It won't end well for inner cities, or policing, or urban business investment with this course of retribution/correction.
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There's a lot of nonsense in that post danglars but the most obvious indication of its absurdity is this part:
any civil authority that permits, condones or dismisses violence,... disqualifies itself from any legitimacy
Unless we're agreeing that the police have made themselves irredeemably illegitimate?
someone a little more attached to the causes and virtues of the left
Is Joe Scarborough btw lmao.
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On September 01 2020 08:08 GreenHorizons wrote:There's a lot of nonsense in that post danglars but the most obvious indication of its absurdity is this part: Show nested quote +any civil authority that permits, condones or dismisses violence,... disqualifies itself from any legitimacy Unless we're agreeing that the police have made themselves irredeemably illegitimate? Is Joe Scarborough btw lmao.
You've rejected some of the presuppositions of a liberal society, so I do expect much of it to be absurd to your mindset. This is not addressed to the socialist or to-the-left-of-Bernie voter. You've explained yourself quite well over the course of many years on this matter.
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On September 01 2020 08:08 GreenHorizons wrote:There's a lot of nonsense in that post danglars but the most obvious indication of its absurdity is this part: Show nested quote +any civil authority that permits, condones or dismisses violence,... disqualifies itself from any legitimacy Unless we're agreeing that the police have made themselves irredeemably illegitimate? Is Joe Scarborough btw lmao.
Yeah I was about to say. The whole post is Joe Scarborough type fanfiction, the type where he said that segregation in Alabama was a good and peaceful time.
MLK engaged in “peaceful protesting” because he knew how the opposition would react. In a society that still had some willingness to appear moral, having children protest was intentional. The fact that children had to get beat up by the American police to get people to care about their civil rights tells you everything about the situation.
This is not any different from Ghandi letting himself get beat up by the British. Because he knew how the world would react to the oppressor beating up the oppressed.
Now for a police department that is militant as heck and a population that still believes in the “just a few bad apples” narrative, despite everything we’ve seen, I can’t blame protestors getting increasingly militant. Peaceful protesting is a two way street, it doesn’t work when the other side just doesn’t care or isn’t listening.
It’s also rich to just say “well, if you want to treated like a human just let yourself get beat up by the oppressor, maybe the majority might change their world view this time round!”
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Northern Ireland26764 Posts
On September 01 2020 07:48 Danglars wrote:MLK's success came alongside a wholesome rejection of Malcolm X violence and pro-black separation. I don't see any truth to someone here that says "There is no historical precedent in the US for Black People being treated better without violent protest." It denies a very important black figure in American history, and his protest that was distinguished by nonviolent protest. And if whatever point you're trying to make recasts history to a simpler timeline, then I don't think you should be taken seriously in what you want to achieve and how you're going to achieve it. That's the first major point I hope more people come to realize. BLM just crashed in the polls after the violence, both meaning that there was significant support to bring demanded reforms, and significant loss when leaders or far left groups rejected that possibility coming without conflict and violence. If I came to someone here with a great injustice, and promised no peace for the citizens of the cities and states where that injustice continued, is that the pained resolution of a downtrodden emissary from the oppressed, or a threat of violence coming against the Democracy that still operates? Written in the words of someone a little more attached to the causes and virtues of the left: Show nested quote +I’m a supporter of the motives of the good folks involved with the Black Lives Matter movement. But I’m equally repelled by the insistent attempt by BLM and its ideological founders to malign and dismiss the huge progress we’ve made, to re-describe the American experiment in freedom as one utterly defined by racism, and to call the most tolerant country on the planet, with unprecedented demographic diversity, a form of “white supremacy”. I’m tired of hearing Kamala Harris say, as she did yesterday: “The reality is that the life of a black person in America has never been treated as fully human.” This is what Trump has long defended as “truthful hyperbole” — which is a euphemism for a lie.
But here’s one thing I have absolutely no conflict about. Rioting and lawlessness is evil. And any civil authority that permits, condones or dismisses violence, looting and mayhem in the streets disqualifies itself from any legitimacy. [...]
I don’t think I’m the only one, as even the Democrats seem now to realize. And this massive blindspot is not hard to understand. When a political party finds itself so wedded to a new and potent ideology it cannot call out violence when it sees it, then it is walking straight into a trap. When the discourse on the left has become one in which scholars and editors and Tweeters vie with one another to up the ante on how inherently evil America has always been, redescribe it as a slaveocracy, and endorse racist books that foment the most egregious stereotypes about “whiteness”, most ordinary people, who love their country and are mostly proud of its past, will rightly balk. One of the most devastating lines in president Trump’s convention speech last night was this: “Tonight, I ask you a very simple question: How can the Democrat Party ask to lead our country when it spends so much time tearing down our country?” A cheap shot, yes. But in the current context, a political bullseye. I'm from the right, and think it's a properly racist ideology putting guilt on the descendents of people with the same skin color as oppressors. I think people from the left should find something brave within themselves that opposes the "dialogue is over" rhetoric or excuses violence. It won't end well for inner cities, or policing, or urban business investment with this course of retribution/correction.
This person lost me rather quickly with ‘the most tolerant country on the planet’. What metric is that under exactly? Yes there is hyperbole all over the shop over how horrible America is, that’s as hyperbolic a claim.
People can take privilege whatever way they want, and yes people do go into outright racism here too, that said pondering that does really seem to piss people off, not really sure why.
People who don’t at least ponder their station and how they got there are prone to utterly ridiculous lapses in worldview and perceptions of others.
Anyone who is poor like me who has been the recipient of preposterous life advice from someone with cash or connections can tell you these people don’t actually know what it’s like materially to be poor, and say things that make you want to punch them. On the other hand someone who’s at least acknowledged they had a leg up in life but are self-aware and behave decently, they have nothing to feel ‘guilty’ for because they can’t change that past, only what they do with their life moving forwards.
Not really best placed to pontificate on the racial aspect, others here are better placed.
A reckoning with the negative aspects of a country’s past need not be a guilt fest, merely a way of improvement. In the American context many, myself included are rather fond of the founding ideals of the country. Teach that and where America both succeeded and failed in living up to those ideals. Where to improve going forward. Us Brits do a fucking shit job in this regard as well, attempts to point out that the Empire wasn’t great for a lot of people tend to get shouted down by passionate ‘patriots’.
Did Germany end up with generations of neurotic guilty people in confronting the monstrous nature of Nazism and the Holocaust?
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On September 01 2020 07:48 Danglars wrote:
I’m a supporter of the motives of the good folks involved with the Black Lives Matter movement. But I’m equally repelled by the insistent attempt by BLM and its ideological founders to malign and dismiss the huge progress we’ve made, to re-describe the American experiment in freedom as one utterly defined by racism, and to call the most tolerant country on the planet, with unprecedented demographic diversity, a form of “white supremacy”. I’m tired of hearing Kamala Harris say, as she did yesterday: “The reality is that the life of a black person in America has never been treated as fully human.” This is what Trump has long defended as “truthful hyperbole” — which is a euphemism for a lie.
But here’s one thing I have absolutely no conflict about. Rioting and lawlessness is evil. And any civil authority that permits, condones or dismisses violence, looting and mayhem in the streets disqualifies itself from any legitimacy. [...]
I don’t think I’m the only one, as even the Democrats seem now to realize. And this massive blindspot is not hard to understand. When a political party finds itself so wedded to a new and potent ideology it cannot call out violence when it sees it, then it is walking straight into a trap. When the discourse on the left has become one in which scholars and editors and Tweeters vie with one another to up the ante on how inherently evil America has always been, redescribe it as a slaveocracy, and endorse racist books that foment the most egregious stereotypes about “whiteness”, most ordinary people, who love their country and are mostly proud of its past, will rightly balk. One of the most devastating lines in president Trump’s convention speech last night was this: “Tonight, I ask you a very simple question: How can the Democrat Party ask to lead our country when it spends so much time tearing down our country?” A cheap shot, yes. But in the current context, a political bullseye.
Lol. Almost got me until the last sentence ahah. Good one.
The most tolerant country in the world asking to be allowed to be proud of their confederate heritage. Nice one.
On September 01 2020 05:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Sorry to interrupt, but I read some good news from President Trump's retweet. Apparently only 9000 people have died from covid in the US.
And I thought it was a serious crisis.
Well if you listen to the GOP, the crisis is already over, it's time to put it behind us and heal from the wounds of the past. I'm sure the people in reanimation are beyond happy.
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Trump is refusing to condemn Kyle Rittenhouse, saying that he was justified in his actions and probably would have been killed otherwise. This comes only days after him refusing to comment on Jacob Blake's shooting by cop due to the "ongoing investigation".
(Take your pick of sources - Fox News, Yahoo, Daily Mail, Mediaite, PSA - they have a tweet so I'm just embedding it)
If you were wondering how the Trump campaign was going to spin everything : just lie. Here's the mailer I got today (I live in OH, so a swing state before 2016). It's not even cherry picked statements : almost all of these are flat out lies, misquotes, or mis-attributions rather than mere cherry picking. Attaching sources that are almost what they say on it is a nice touch.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On September 01 2020 10:44 Nevuk wrote:Trump is refusing to condemn Kyle Rittenhouse, saying that he was justified in his actions and probably would have been killed otherwise. This comes only days after him refusing to comment on Jacob Blake's shooting by cop due to the "ongoing investigation". (Take your pick of sources - Fox News, Yahoo, Daily Mail, Mediaite, PSA - they have a tweet so I'm just embedding it) https://twitter.com/PodSaveAmerica/status/1300557665806868480If you were wondering how the Trump campaign was going to spin everything : just lie. Here's the mailer I got today (I live in OH, so a swing state before 2016). It's not even cherry picked statements : almost all of these are flat out lies, misquotes, or mis-attributions rather than mere cherry picking. Attaching sources that are almost what they say on it is a nice touch. + Show Spoiler +blob:https://imgur.com/73156ae6-992c-45e2-be87-f5fd480f4897 ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/5NPVcvb.jpg)
Definitely the most terrifying thing Trump has ever done
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I've looked up a couple of articles... honestly it does sound like self-defense in this instance. Even CNN reports that the people who got shot were trying to grab his gun. Pretty sure most juries would side with the defendant on his one unless some more details come out that indicate something else.
Optics are horrible of course but it's not like the Trump side cares. I'm sure the lad will be a new hero for them in good time.
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On September 01 2020 11:03 iamthedave wrote:
I've looked up a couple of articles... honestly it does sound like self-defense in this instance. Even CNN reports that the people who got shot were trying to grab his gun. Pretty sure most juries would side with the defendant on his one unless some more details come out that indicate something else.
Optics are horrible of course but it's not like the Trump side cares. I'm sure the lad will be a new hero for them in good time.
Wave a gun around in someone's face then shoot them when they grab it, and that still fits that description, and is clearly not self-defense. I'm pretty sure we'll never know the truth of the first killing, as it was off camera and eye witness testimony only. The other one was more in line with what you're saying.
Not sure I'd say "in good time" either. If he weren't in jail I'm sure they would've granted him a speaking slot at the RNC.
also:
Trump claims he spoke to Jacob Blake's family to arrange a meeting and backed out when they insisted on lawyers. Strange story.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/v4pFxwN.jpg)
