Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
People defending contradictory views just to spite and smash the other side, irrational justifications and rationalizations, etc.
Fifty-five percent of Republicans said Democrats are "more immoral" than other Americans, and 47 percent of Democrats said likewise about Republicans, as Pew Research noted last month. "The level of division and animosity—including negative sentiments among partisans toward the members of the opposing party—has only deepened" since the last survey three years ago.
Fifty-five percent of Republicans and 44 percent of Democrats say the party opposing their own is "not just worse for politics—they are downright evil," according to a YouGov survey. Thirty-four percent of Republicans and 27 percent of Democrats say the other party "lack the traits to be considered fully human—they behave like animals."
More to the point:
Factions that aren't really firm about what they believe, shift positions, but are dead-set in their hatred for one another to the point of dehumanization? In a weird way, such partisan animus for its own sake sounds an awful lot like the ancient rivalry between the Blues and the Greens—the chariot teams turned political parties that played such a prominent role in sixth-century Byzantine political life. As with modern Republicans and Democrats it was never entirely clear what they stood for beyond opposition to one another, but rioting between the two factions ultimately burned half of Constantinople to the ground.
When the Blues and Greens set about burning down their city, they were encouraged by senators who hoped to seize the imperial throne for themselves. They sought to take advantage of the chaos.
Nothing much has changed over the centuries.
"Partisan negativity is self-reinforcing, that is, political elites are motivated to stoke negativity to boost their chances of reelection," Iyengar and Krupenkin wrote in their 2018 paper.
How anyone can sit there and defend that thousand large groups of people in close proximity is perfectly fine, but a congregation of folks is not and Government power should be wielded to smash one and protect the other. I guess it just so happens one side tends to be on the Blues the other the Greens. Fucking stupid. All the way down to every issue. It reminds me of the Babylon 5 episode with the Drazi purple and greens.
As with modern Republicans and Democrats it was never entirely clear what they stood for beyond opposition to one another
The idea that there are no ideological divide between republicans and democrats - and that they compare to sport fans turned political - is mind boggling. The problem is actually that they oppose on absolutely everything, and disagree on even totally objective scientific facts.
Here are a few examples in which the GOP and the democratic party are in complete disagreement:
Abortion Gay / Transgender rights Environmental issues and policies Taxation Education Gun rights Dilplomacy International trade policies
... and I am probably forgetting half of them.
The disaster is not that politics is tribal and without content. It's that half the country has polar opposite opinions of the other half.
Fifty-five percent of Republicans said Democrats are "more immoral" than other Americans, and 47 percent of Democrats said likewise about Republicans, as Pew Research noted last month. "The level of division and animosity—including negative sentiments among partisans toward the members of the opposing party—has only deepened" since the last survey three years ago.
Fifty-five percent of Republicans and 44 percent of Democrats say the party opposing their own is "not just worse for politics—they are downright evil," according to a YouGov survey. Thirty-four percent of Republicans and 27 percent of Democrats say the other party "lack the traits to be considered fully human—they behave like animals."
Factions that aren't really firm about what they believe, shift positions, but are dead-set in their hatred for one another to the point of dehumanization? In a weird way, such partisan animus for its own sake sounds an awful lot like the ancient rivalry between the Blues and the Greens—the chariot teams turned political parties that played such a prominent role in sixth-century Byzantine political life. As with modern Republicans and Democrats it was never entirely clear what they stood for beyond opposition to one another, but rioting between the two factions ultimately burned half of Constantinople to the ground.
When the Blues and Greens set about burning down their city, they were encouraged by senators who hoped to seize the imperial throne for themselves. They sought to take advantage of the chaos.
Nothing much has changed over the centuries.
"Partisan negativity is self-reinforcing, that is, political elites are motivated to stoke negativity to boost their chances of reelection," Iyengar and Krupenkin wrote in their 2018 paper.
How anyone can sit there and defend that thousand large groups of people in close proximity is perfectly fine, but a congregation of folks is not and Government power should be wielded to smash one and protect the other. I guess it just so happens one side tends to be on the Blues the other the Greens. Fucking stupid. All the way down to every issue. It reminds me of the Babylon 5 episode with the Drazi purple and greens.
As with modern Republicans and Democrats it was never entirely clear what they stood for beyond opposition to one another
The idea that there are no ideological divide between republicans and democrats - and that they compare to sport fans turned political - is mind boggling. The problem is actually that they oppose on absolutely everything, and disagree on even totally objective scientific facts.
Here are a few examples in which the GOP and the democratic party are in complete disagreement:
Abortion Gay / Transgender rights Environmental issues and policies Taxation Education Gun rights Dilplomacy International trade policies
... and I am probably forgetting half of them.
The disaster is not that politics is tribal and without content. It's that half the country has polar opposite opinions of the other half.
That was Wegandi's point, they're in complete opposition to each other, for the sake of opposing each other.
I agree with Wegandi to some extent on this point. As I understand it, republicans tend to be a bit of "let's stick it to the libs" which effectively is opposing for the sake of opposing.
I don't think, however, that both parties are equivalent in this. I have seen a lot less of this from the Dems, but they nevertheless also amplify these sort of points for political gain.
On August 07 2020 20:25 Gorsameth wrote: Its a 2 party system. Of course the 2 parties in a 2 party system hold opposite views.
This is of course true. However, the point is about why? Is it because of your ideology, or is it because the other party supports it? Take mask wearing, why is this a political issue in the first place? It doesn't make sense in an ideological context, but makes perfect sense as a reaction to the other party endorsing it.
I'm sure conservatives can also find other instances where the democratic position was defined in diametric opposition for no particular reason other than republicans wanting it.
In my, very biased, opinion? This is all the result of the southern strategy, Republicans tapped into the far right for electoral votes which pulled the party to the right. Their core voting base more and more consists of 'deplorables', which influences the policies that get pushed to please them which makes them less palatable to the rest of the country. Party controlled media further fuels the narrative and influences people's viewpoints. Then disaster strikes and a black man elected President. The racist base blows a fuse and doubles down on the culture war. Queue the rise of the tea-party as the voter base piles on more and more pressure to turn the dog-whistles of the past into open racism, ending (for now) with the election of Trump. The GOP has lost control of their own party as the racist base they themselves courted has now grown big and loud enough to decide their fate internally, but is to unpalatable to survive externally.
Having lost the war for America (its hard to claim your succeeding in keeping America for the whites when there is a black President) the only thing left is to win battles and inflict damage where you can out of spite. Policy doesn't matter, beliefs don't even matter. So long as they can stick it to the other side one more time.
I don't buy the idea that most of these politicians actually believe what they are saying. That they actually think staying open is the right choice or that masks really are the devil. But their supporters won't let them make the sane choices, because the fight has to be fought, no matter how dumb it might be. And they have long since sold their morals off to stay in power, so its to late to back off now.
On August 07 2020 20:54 EnDeR_ wrote:I'm sure conservatives can also find other instances where the democratic position was defined in diametric opposition for no particular reason other than republicans wanting it.
And I would love to hear from conservatives what those instances might be, it can be hard to see them from the inside.
Yeah. I think the notion that it's both parties responsibility is kind of untenable when you consider that the Democratic party aligns on positions of parties around the world that range from centre left to right, while you would have to go to the most extreme populist right internationally to find anything that resemble the GOP ideological position.
On August 07 2020 22:06 Biff The Understudy wrote: Yeah. I think the notion that it's both parties responsibility is kind of untenable when you consider that the Democratic party aligns on positions of parties around the world that range from centre left to right, while you would have to go to the most extreme populist right internationally to find anything that resemble the GOP ideological position.
Just curious with this framing (and a 2 party system), if you think the opposition party to Democrats should be to their left or to their right?
Basically is there more space to Joe Manchin's right on this international scale or to Bernie's left?
As calls to defund and abolish the police grow around the country, a new poll by Gallup finds that a large majority—81 percent—of black Americans want the same or increased levels of police presence in their neighborhoods. Just 19 percent of black Americans said they want the police to spend less time in their neighborhoods, a figure that accords with earlier surveys finding that only 22 percent of black Americans want to get rid of police forces as we know then.
I don't think the tactics employed these last 2 months are doing any good, what say you?
As calls to defund and abolish the police grow around the country, a new poll by Gallup finds that a large majority—81 percent—of black Americans want the same or increased levels of police presence in their neighbourhoods. Just 19 percent of black Americans said they want the police to spend less time in their neighbourhoods, a figure that accords with earlier surveys finding that only 22 percent of black Americans want to get rid of police forces as we know then.
I don't think the tactics employed these last 2 months are doing any good, what say you?
people want competent police who don't kill innocent people for lolz to patrol their streets to keep neighbourhoods safe.
I don't see how that conflicts with not wanting police to kill innocent people for lolz.
As calls to defund and abolish the police grow around the country, a new poll by Gallup finds that a large majority—81 percent—of black Americans want the same or increased levels of police presence in their neighborhoods. Just 19 percent of black Americans said they want the police to spend less time in their neighborhoods, a figure that accords with earlier surveys finding that only 22 percent of black Americans want to get rid of police forces as we know then.
I don't think the tactics employed these last 2 months are doing any good, what say you?
From the linked Gallup polling some 58% of Americans across the board wanted ‘major changes’ and 56% wanted an end to police unions.
Which are pretty big numbers, hell I include myself in the number of people who were relatively unaware of the myriad of negative ways the police unions were prior to this more sustained wave of protest.
That’s still a pretty big shift towards reforms, even though not quite to as radical a degree as GH would likely want.
As calls to defund and abolish the police grow around the country, a new poll by Gallup finds that a large majority—81 percent—of black Americans want the same or increased levels of police presence in their neighborhoods. Just 19 percent of black Americans said they want the police to spend less time in their neighborhoods, a figure that accords with earlier surveys finding that only 22 percent of black Americans want to get rid of police forces as we know then.
I don't think the tactics employed these last 2 months are doing any good, what say you?
Have to consider how that's changed over time.
Don't know if Gallup asks those questions consistently, but I did find in 2015 they reported that 38% of Black people wanted a greater presence, and only 10% wanted a smaller presence. So I suppose it depends on what one means by "working" but most significant changes have taken a while to go from obscure radical position to mainstream acceptability/advocacy.
On August 07 2020 15:37 Sr18 wrote: Danglars, on a scale of 1 to 10, how likely is it that you will vote for Biden come november?
Biden’s appointments for his policy groups, and promise to send the group of nuns back to court, are the main reason it’s a zero. Title IX, foreign policy, second amendment, religious freedoms ... yeah I’ll stop there I’m not writing a novel. Likelihood that I won’t vote for either of them is pretty high.
Privatising (lets just call it what it is,because that is what abolishing the police will result in) the police is a typical libertarian idea that they tried to atribute to the left while making use of the public outrage against police brutatily to do so. I guess it would be the dream for all the private security firms in the usa. Maybe one day its gonna happen in the usa but not on behalve of the left.
On August 07 2020 15:37 Sr18 wrote: Danglars, on a scale of 1 to 10, how likely is it that you will vote for Biden come november?
Biden’s appointments for his policy groups, and promise to send the group of nuns back to court, are the main reason it’s a zero. Title IX, foreign policy, second amendment, religious freedoms ... yeah I’ll stop there I’m not writing a novel. Likelihood that I won’t vote for either of them is pretty high.
Whats better in the end ? An american controlled muppet, or a russian one ?
On August 07 2020 15:37 Sr18 wrote: Danglars, on a scale of 1 to 10, how likely is it that you will vote for Biden come november?
Biden’s appointments for his policy groups, and promise to send the group of nuns back to court, are the main reason it’s a zero. Title IX, foreign policy, second amendment, religious freedoms ... yeah I’ll stop there I’m not writing a novel. Likelihood that I won’t vote for either of them is pretty high.
Whats better in the end ? An american controlled muppet, or a russian one ?
Ahh yes, the old Russian-controlled canard. The results of the Barr & Durham investigations, and possibly the John Bash one, cannot come soon enough. Domestic spying and leak campaigns are popular when done by Democratic administrations against Republican ones.
As calls to defund and abolish the police grow around the country, a new poll by Gallup finds that a large majority—81 percent—of black Americans want the same or increased levels of police presence in their neighborhoods. Just 19 percent of black Americans said they want the police to spend less time in their neighborhoods, a figure that accords with earlier surveys finding that only 22 percent of black Americans want to get rid of police forces as we know then.
I don't think the tactics employed these last 2 months are doing any good, what say you?
From the linked Gallup polling some 58% of Americans across the board wanted ‘major changes’ and 56% wanted an end to police unions.
Which are pretty big numbers, hell I include myself in the number of people who were relatively unaware of the myriad of negative ways the police unions were prior to this more sustained wave of protest.
That’s still a pretty big shift towards reforms, even though not quite to as radical a degree as GH would likely want.
I wonder what % of Americans want to do away with union's in general. I think they are pretty unpopular in the USA.
Isn’t anything vaguely sensible unpopular in the USA?
EPT
