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On June 02 2018 21:07 sc-darkness wrote:
a_flayer, I agree with you. People are trying to turn democracy into Orwellian state (thought police). I come from eastern Europe which was communist not too long ago, so my interest in democracy is greater than those hypersensitive political correct people in the west. Luckily, not everyone is like that, and I know that because I lived in the UK for a few years. However, it's super annoying western societies are plagued so innocent people who aren't racist/sexist in general have to feel guilty for one slip of the tongue or this one odd joke.
I guess new liberalism of the century will be as basic as restoring freedom of speech after political correctness hits the roof.
I reject communism and fascism, but I also reject this new movement of hypersensitive political correctness. All of them are bad. All of these ideologies are divisive in their own way.
racism/sexism aren't a binary yes/no thing; it's more of a spectrum. you probably simply fall on a different part of the spectrum; which is not x-ist by some older standards, and is by some newer standards. Which is pretty normal; standards evolve over time and vary by culture/place;
on many such issues where eastern europe is now normally corresponds to where "the west" was some ~30 ago (iirc on the vague estimates, been awhile since I looked at details). US is usually around 5-10 years behind western europe places.
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On June 02 2018 21:37 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2018 20:51 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 20:33 iamthedave wrote:On June 02 2018 19:30 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 18:14 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 02 2018 17:26 sc-darkness wrote:As I said in another thread, this is one of the most annoying traits of the west. Too much crying and not enough thinking (aka political correctness). Thought police is so communist. I'm so glad eastern Europe isn't suffering from this syndrome yet. "Political correctness" literally is thinking about what you're saying. Rephrasing your words in a diplomatic way for the person/people you're communicating with. There may be an argument about overthinking or over-analyzing words, but it's bizarre to say political correctness is not thinking and the opposite is. Political correctness at its current level is disgrace because it's overthinking as you say. I'm for some basic political correctness, but not for showing the racism/sexism/whatever card at every little sign you could misinterpret in your own way. Simply put, political correctness is abused by strawmen. E.g. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/dove-apologises-for-ad-showing-black-woman-turning-into-white-one That was an exceptionally poor choice, considering how many better, clearer examples of spurious PC-related incidents there are. I'm white as driven snow and I can see exactly how offensive that is with about 1 second of thought. That is neither a strawman, nor abuse of political correctness, nor even misinterpretation of the imagery presented. You've achieved transcendent wrongness. I applaud. This is a far clearer example of people going a bit nuts: 9. Gillingham fans had begun to fondly offer celery to their goalkeeper, ‘Big Fat’ Jim Stannard. The club, however, decided that celery could result in health and safety issues inside the ground. As a result, fans were subjected to celery searches with the ultimate sanction for possession of celery allegedly being a life ban.’ I'm sorry you're a victim of ultra political correctness and you're equally bad in that respect. Congrats. There's nothing else for me to discuss with you about this topic. I made my point clear and I don't even hate black people. If you find Dove's ad offensive, something is wrong with your interpretation. Edit: Just asked 2 friends and both found Dove's ad normal. Again, it's your inner desire to brand everything racist so you could claim moral high ground. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. Maybe you and your friends don't know the previous history of racist ads where Black people are turned into white people after washing themselves with soap, but others do
I'm aware of those, some of those were obvious racism but I'm inclined to believe Dove didn't do it on purpose.
On June 02 2018 21:40 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2018 21:07 sc-darkness wrote:
a_flayer, I agree with you. People are trying to turn democracy into Orwellian state (thought police). I come from eastern Europe which was communist not too long ago, so my interest in democracy is greater than those hypersensitive political correct people in the west. Luckily, not everyone is like that, and I know that because I lived in the UK for a few years. However, it's super annoying western societies are plagued so innocent people who aren't racist/sexist in general have to feel guilty for one slip of the tongue or this one odd joke.
I guess new liberalism of the century will be as basic as restoring freedom of speech after political correctness hits the roof.
I reject communism and fascism, but I also reject this new movement of hypersensitive political correctness. All of them are bad. All of these ideologies are divisive in their own way. racism/sexism aren't a binary yes/no thing; it's more of a spectrum. you probably simply fall on a different part of the spectrum; which is not x-ist by some older standards, and is by some newer standards. Which is pretty normal; standards evolve over time and vary by culture/place; on many such issues where eastern europe is now normally corresponds to where "the west" was some ~30 ago (iirc on the vague estimates, been awhile since I looked at details). US is usually around 5-10 years behind western europe places.
I understand what you mean, but I'd not define it as "being behind". Different countries have different cultures. That doesn't necessarily translate as ahead/behind.  If we were to interpret it like this, would that make the Middle East super ahead because monogomy isn't a social requirement? I mean it's more freedom so it has to be good, right?
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On June 02 2018 21:43 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2018 21:37 TheDwf wrote:On June 02 2018 20:51 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 20:33 iamthedave wrote:On June 02 2018 19:30 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 18:14 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 02 2018 17:26 sc-darkness wrote:As I said in another thread, this is one of the most annoying traits of the west. Too much crying and not enough thinking (aka political correctness). Thought police is so communist. I'm so glad eastern Europe isn't suffering from this syndrome yet. "Political correctness" literally is thinking about what you're saying. Rephrasing your words in a diplomatic way for the person/people you're communicating with. There may be an argument about overthinking or over-analyzing words, but it's bizarre to say political correctness is not thinking and the opposite is. Political correctness at its current level is disgrace because it's overthinking as you say. I'm for some basic political correctness, but not for showing the racism/sexism/whatever card at every little sign you could misinterpret in your own way. Simply put, political correctness is abused by strawmen. E.g. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/dove-apologises-for-ad-showing-black-woman-turning-into-white-one That was an exceptionally poor choice, considering how many better, clearer examples of spurious PC-related incidents there are. I'm white as driven snow and I can see exactly how offensive that is with about 1 second of thought. That is neither a strawman, nor abuse of political correctness, nor even misinterpretation of the imagery presented. You've achieved transcendent wrongness. I applaud. This is a far clearer example of people going a bit nuts: 9. Gillingham fans had begun to fondly offer celery to their goalkeeper, ‘Big Fat’ Jim Stannard. The club, however, decided that celery could result in health and safety issues inside the ground. As a result, fans were subjected to celery searches with the ultimate sanction for possession of celery allegedly being a life ban.’ I'm sorry you're a victim of ultra political correctness and you're equally bad in that respect. Congrats. There's nothing else for me to discuss with you about this topic. I made my point clear and I don't even hate black people. If you find Dove's ad offensive, something is wrong with your interpretation. Edit: Just asked 2 friends and both found Dove's ad normal. Again, it's your inner desire to brand everything racist so you could claim moral high ground. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. Maybe you and your friends don't know the previous history of racist ads where Black people are turned into white people after washing themselves with soap, but others do I'm aware of those, some of those were obvious racism but I'm inclined to believe Dove didn't do it on purpose.
Of course they didn't, but racism isn't only about intention
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On June 02 2018 21:43 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2018 21:37 TheDwf wrote:On June 02 2018 20:51 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 20:33 iamthedave wrote:On June 02 2018 19:30 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 18:14 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 02 2018 17:26 sc-darkness wrote:As I said in another thread, this is one of the most annoying traits of the west. Too much crying and not enough thinking (aka political correctness). Thought police is so communist. I'm so glad eastern Europe isn't suffering from this syndrome yet. "Political correctness" literally is thinking about what you're saying. Rephrasing your words in a diplomatic way for the person/people you're communicating with. There may be an argument about overthinking or over-analyzing words, but it's bizarre to say political correctness is not thinking and the opposite is. Political correctness at its current level is disgrace because it's overthinking as you say. I'm for some basic political correctness, but not for showing the racism/sexism/whatever card at every little sign you could misinterpret in your own way. Simply put, political correctness is abused by strawmen. E.g. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/dove-apologises-for-ad-showing-black-woman-turning-into-white-one That was an exceptionally poor choice, considering how many better, clearer examples of spurious PC-related incidents there are. I'm white as driven snow and I can see exactly how offensive that is with about 1 second of thought. That is neither a strawman, nor abuse of political correctness, nor even misinterpretation of the imagery presented. You've achieved transcendent wrongness. I applaud. This is a far clearer example of people going a bit nuts: 9. Gillingham fans had begun to fondly offer celery to their goalkeeper, ‘Big Fat’ Jim Stannard. The club, however, decided that celery could result in health and safety issues inside the ground. As a result, fans were subjected to celery searches with the ultimate sanction for possession of celery allegedly being a life ban.’ I'm sorry you're a victim of ultra political correctness and you're equally bad in that respect. Congrats. There's nothing else for me to discuss with you about this topic. I made my point clear and I don't even hate black people. If you find Dove's ad offensive, something is wrong with your interpretation. Edit: Just asked 2 friends and both found Dove's ad normal. Again, it's your inner desire to brand everything racist so you could claim moral high ground. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. Maybe you and your friends don't know the previous history of racist ads where Black people are turned into white people after washing themselves with soap, but others do I'm aware of those, some of those were obvious racism but I'm inclined to believe Dove didn't do it on purpose. Show nested quote +On June 02 2018 21:40 zlefin wrote:On June 02 2018 21:07 sc-darkness wrote:
a_flayer, I agree with you. People are trying to turn democracy into Orwellian state (thought police). I come from eastern Europe which was communist not too long ago, so my interest in democracy is greater than those hypersensitive political correct people in the west. Luckily, not everyone is like that, and I know that because I lived in the UK for a few years. However, it's super annoying western societies are plagued so innocent people who aren't racist/sexist in general have to feel guilty for one slip of the tongue or this one odd joke.
I guess new liberalism of the century will be as basic as restoring freedom of speech after political correctness hits the roof.
I reject communism and fascism, but I also reject this new movement of hypersensitive political correctness. All of them are bad. All of these ideologies are divisive in their own way. racism/sexism aren't a binary yes/no thing; it's more of a spectrum. you probably simply fall on a different part of the spectrum; which is not x-ist by some older standards, and is by some newer standards. Which is pretty normal; standards evolve over time and vary by culture/place; on many such issues where eastern europe is now normally corresponds to where "the west" was some ~30 ago (iirc on the vague estimates, been awhile since I looked at details). US is usually around 5-10 years behind western europe places. I understand what you mean, but I'd not define it as "being behind". Different countries have different cultures. That doesn't necessarily translate as ahead/behind. If we were to interpret it like this, would that make the Middle East super ahead because monogomy isn't a social requirement? I mean it's more freedom so it has to be good, right?
when I say "being behind" what I mean is behind on a recognizeable timeline. i.e. in 30 years now on those topics, eastern europe will look like the west does now. and the west 30 years from now, I do'nt know what that'll look like. this initially was based on observation of gay rights issues; where it's a bit clearer to point to some legal stances and standards of rhetoric and you can more pointedly say where place X is now, is where place Y was Z years ago.
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I'm generally down with the PC crowd, but I don't understand the issue with this commercial. Considering that later in the commercial, the white woman does the same thing and becomes middle eastern. Is the issue that the subject goes specifically from black to white? Would it be any better if the ME woman was in the middle or worse?
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No matter the inflection, associating cleanliness with a change in skin color is not a good idea.
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Blows my mind that there can be Europeans that get this better than Americans living in it.
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On June 02 2018 20:51 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2018 20:33 iamthedave wrote:On June 02 2018 19:30 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 18:14 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 02 2018 17:26 sc-darkness wrote:As I said in another thread, this is one of the most annoying traits of the west. Too much crying and not enough thinking (aka political correctness). Thought police is so communist. I'm so glad eastern Europe isn't suffering from this syndrome yet. "Political correctness" literally is thinking about what you're saying. Rephrasing your words in a diplomatic way for the person/people you're communicating with. There may be an argument about overthinking or over-analyzing words, but it's bizarre to say political correctness is not thinking and the opposite is. Political correctness at its current level is disgrace because it's overthinking as you say. I'm for some basic political correctness, but not for showing the racism/sexism/whatever card at every little sign you could misinterpret in your own way. Simply put, political correctness is abused by strawmen. E.g. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/dove-apologises-for-ad-showing-black-woman-turning-into-white-one That was an exceptionally poor choice, considering how many better, clearer examples of spurious PC-related incidents there are. I'm white as driven snow and I can see exactly how offensive that is with about 1 second of thought. That is neither a strawman, nor abuse of political correctness, nor even misinterpretation of the imagery presented. You've achieved transcendent wrongness. I applaud. This is a far clearer example of people going a bit nuts: 9. Gillingham fans had begun to fondly offer celery to their goalkeeper, ‘Big Fat’ Jim Stannard. The club, however, decided that celery could result in health and safety issues inside the ground. As a result, fans were subjected to celery searches with the ultimate sanction for possession of celery allegedly being a life ban.’ I'm sorry you're a victim of ultra political correctness and you're equally bad in that respect. Congrats. There's nothing else for me to discuss with you about this topic. I made my point clear and I don't even hate black people. If you find Dove's ad offensive, something is wrong with your interpretation. Edit: Just asked 2 friends and both found Dove's ad normal. Again, it's your inner desire to brand everything racist so you could claim moral high ground. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.
That doesn't make you or your friends any less wrong, I'm afraid. You're also making extremely broad assumptions. I didn't say that I found it racist, I said I can see how it is with less than a second's thought.
I'm sure Dove did it without a thought in their heads. Hence the swift apology and retraction. Nonetheless...
That's the problem.
When people first encountered black men from my part of the world, the explorers thought they were dirty and needed a damn good scrubbing to fix them up. And you can't see how an ad for soap that directly suggests it'll 'clean' the black woman and make her white can be seen as offensive?
If you really can't see the subtext, the problem is 100% with your ability to consume media critically, not with my ability to do so and understand the messages therein, even if unintentional.
So thank you. You are now living proof of why political correctness is needed in society.
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On June 02 2018 22:11 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2018 20:51 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 20:33 iamthedave wrote:On June 02 2018 19:30 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 18:14 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 02 2018 17:26 sc-darkness wrote:As I said in another thread, this is one of the most annoying traits of the west. Too much crying and not enough thinking (aka political correctness). Thought police is so communist. I'm so glad eastern Europe isn't suffering from this syndrome yet. "Political correctness" literally is thinking about what you're saying. Rephrasing your words in a diplomatic way for the person/people you're communicating with. There may be an argument about overthinking or over-analyzing words, but it's bizarre to say political correctness is not thinking and the opposite is. Political correctness at its current level is disgrace because it's overthinking as you say. I'm for some basic political correctness, but not for showing the racism/sexism/whatever card at every little sign you could misinterpret in your own way. Simply put, political correctness is abused by strawmen. E.g. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/dove-apologises-for-ad-showing-black-woman-turning-into-white-one That was an exceptionally poor choice, considering how many better, clearer examples of spurious PC-related incidents there are. I'm white as driven snow and I can see exactly how offensive that is with about 1 second of thought. That is neither a strawman, nor abuse of political correctness, nor even misinterpretation of the imagery presented. You've achieved transcendent wrongness. I applaud. This is a far clearer example of people going a bit nuts: 9. Gillingham fans had begun to fondly offer celery to their goalkeeper, ‘Big Fat’ Jim Stannard. The club, however, decided that celery could result in health and safety issues inside the ground. As a result, fans were subjected to celery searches with the ultimate sanction for possession of celery allegedly being a life ban.’ I'm sorry you're a victim of ultra political correctness and you're equally bad in that respect. Congrats. There's nothing else for me to discuss with you about this topic. I made my point clear and I don't even hate black people. If you find Dove's ad offensive, something is wrong with your interpretation. Edit: Just asked 2 friends and both found Dove's ad normal. Again, it's your inner desire to brand everything racist so you could claim moral high ground. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. That doesn't make you or your friends any less wrong, I'm afraid. You're also making extremely broad assumptions. I didn't say that I found it racist, I said I can see how it is with less than a second's thought. I'm sure Dove did it without a thought in their heads. Hence the swift apology and retraction. Nonetheless... That's the problem.When people first encountered black men from my part of the world, the explorers thought they were dirty and needed a damn good scrubbing to fix them up. And you can't see how an ad for soap that directly suggests it'll 'clean' the black woman and make her white can be seen as offensive? If you really can't see the subtext, the problem is 100% with your ability to consume media critically, not with my ability to do so and understand the messages therein, even if unintentional. So thank you. You are now living proof of why political correctness is needed in society.
The year is 2018. Not the time when you had your silly British Empire and were abusing black men. Thanks for your contribution. My country didn't abuse them so I naturally don't find the advertisement offensive. It's not a thought that occurs to me because that's a part of history that I hope is forgotten so we can move on.
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On June 02 2018 22:06 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2018 21:43 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 21:37 TheDwf wrote:On June 02 2018 20:51 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 20:33 iamthedave wrote:On June 02 2018 19:30 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 18:14 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 02 2018 17:26 sc-darkness wrote:As I said in another thread, this is one of the most annoying traits of the west. Too much crying and not enough thinking (aka political correctness). Thought police is so communist. I'm so glad eastern Europe isn't suffering from this syndrome yet. "Political correctness" literally is thinking about what you're saying. Rephrasing your words in a diplomatic way for the person/people you're communicating with. There may be an argument about overthinking or over-analyzing words, but it's bizarre to say political correctness is not thinking and the opposite is. Political correctness at its current level is disgrace because it's overthinking as you say. I'm for some basic political correctness, but not for showing the racism/sexism/whatever card at every little sign you could misinterpret in your own way. Simply put, political correctness is abused by strawmen. E.g. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/dove-apologises-for-ad-showing-black-woman-turning-into-white-one That was an exceptionally poor choice, considering how many better, clearer examples of spurious PC-related incidents there are. I'm white as driven snow and I can see exactly how offensive that is with about 1 second of thought. That is neither a strawman, nor abuse of political correctness, nor even misinterpretation of the imagery presented. You've achieved transcendent wrongness. I applaud. This is a far clearer example of people going a bit nuts: 9. Gillingham fans had begun to fondly offer celery to their goalkeeper, ‘Big Fat’ Jim Stannard. The club, however, decided that celery could result in health and safety issues inside the ground. As a result, fans were subjected to celery searches with the ultimate sanction for possession of celery allegedly being a life ban.’ I'm sorry you're a victim of ultra political correctness and you're equally bad in that respect. Congrats. There's nothing else for me to discuss with you about this topic. I made my point clear and I don't even hate black people. If you find Dove's ad offensive, something is wrong with your interpretation. Edit: Just asked 2 friends and both found Dove's ad normal. Again, it's your inner desire to brand everything racist so you could claim moral high ground. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. Maybe you and your friends don't know the previous history of racist ads where Black people are turned into white people after washing themselves with soap, but others do I'm aware of those, some of those were obvious racism but I'm inclined to believe Dove didn't do it on purpose. On June 02 2018 21:40 zlefin wrote:On June 02 2018 21:07 sc-darkness wrote:
a_flayer, I agree with you. People are trying to turn democracy into Orwellian state (thought police). I come from eastern Europe which was communist not too long ago, so my interest in democracy is greater than those hypersensitive political correct people in the west. Luckily, not everyone is like that, and I know that because I lived in the UK for a few years. However, it's super annoying western societies are plagued so innocent people who aren't racist/sexist in general have to feel guilty for one slip of the tongue or this one odd joke.
I guess new liberalism of the century will be as basic as restoring freedom of speech after political correctness hits the roof.
I reject communism and fascism, but I also reject this new movement of hypersensitive political correctness. All of them are bad. All of these ideologies are divisive in their own way. racism/sexism aren't a binary yes/no thing; it's more of a spectrum. you probably simply fall on a different part of the spectrum; which is not x-ist by some older standards, and is by some newer standards. Which is pretty normal; standards evolve over time and vary by culture/place; on many such issues where eastern europe is now normally corresponds to where "the west" was some ~30 ago (iirc on the vague estimates, been awhile since I looked at details). US is usually around 5-10 years behind western europe places. I understand what you mean, but I'd not define it as "being behind". Different countries have different cultures. That doesn't necessarily translate as ahead/behind. If we were to interpret it like this, would that make the Middle East super ahead because monogomy isn't a social requirement? I mean it's more freedom so it has to be good, right? when I say "being behind" what I mean is behind on a recognizeable timeline. i.e. in 30 years now on those topics, eastern europe will look like the west does now. and the west 30 years from now, I do'nt know what that'll look like. this initially was based on observation of gay rights issues; where it's a bit clearer to point to some legal stances and standards of rhetoric and you can more pointedly say where place X is now, is where place Y was Z years ago.
Unfortunately, human progress is not linear.
On June 02 2018 22:09 GreenHorizons wrote:
Blows my mind that there can be Europeans that get this better than Americans living in it.
Racism and the corresponding debates exist in Europe too bro^
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The best part about anti-PC criticisms that end with "you're just trying to take the moral high ground" is that by attempting to undercut the basis for the correction in the first place, the speaker is attempting to take some kind of imaginary moral high ground themselves. This dynamic can be seen in pretty much any "haha look at these thought-police liberals" diatribe and is a pretty clear extension of a "my opinion isn't opinion, it's fact" fallacy.
On June 02 2018 22:15 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2018 22:11 iamthedave wrote:On June 02 2018 20:51 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 20:33 iamthedave wrote:On June 02 2018 19:30 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 18:14 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 02 2018 17:26 sc-darkness wrote:As I said in another thread, this is one of the most annoying traits of the west. Too much crying and not enough thinking (aka political correctness). Thought police is so communist. I'm so glad eastern Europe isn't suffering from this syndrome yet. "Political correctness" literally is thinking about what you're saying. Rephrasing your words in a diplomatic way for the person/people you're communicating with. There may be an argument about overthinking or over-analyzing words, but it's bizarre to say political correctness is not thinking and the opposite is. Political correctness at its current level is disgrace because it's overthinking as you say. I'm for some basic political correctness, but not for showing the racism/sexism/whatever card at every little sign you could misinterpret in your own way. Simply put, political correctness is abused by strawmen. E.g. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/dove-apologises-for-ad-showing-black-woman-turning-into-white-one That was an exceptionally poor choice, considering how many better, clearer examples of spurious PC-related incidents there are. I'm white as driven snow and I can see exactly how offensive that is with about 1 second of thought. That is neither a strawman, nor abuse of political correctness, nor even misinterpretation of the imagery presented. You've achieved transcendent wrongness. I applaud. This is a far clearer example of people going a bit nuts: 9. Gillingham fans had begun to fondly offer celery to their goalkeeper, ‘Big Fat’ Jim Stannard. The club, however, decided that celery could result in health and safety issues inside the ground. As a result, fans were subjected to celery searches with the ultimate sanction for possession of celery allegedly being a life ban.’ I'm sorry you're a victim of ultra political correctness and you're equally bad in that respect. Congrats. There's nothing else for me to discuss with you about this topic. I made my point clear and I don't even hate black people. If you find Dove's ad offensive, something is wrong with your interpretation. Edit: Just asked 2 friends and both found Dove's ad normal. Again, it's your inner desire to brand everything racist so you could claim moral high ground. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. That doesn't make you or your friends any less wrong, I'm afraid. You're also making extremely broad assumptions. I didn't say that I found it racist, I said I can see how it is with less than a second's thought. I'm sure Dove did it without a thought in their heads. Hence the swift apology and retraction. Nonetheless... That's the problem.When people first encountered black men from my part of the world, the explorers thought they were dirty and needed a damn good scrubbing to fix them up. And you can't see how an ad for soap that directly suggests it'll 'clean' the black woman and make her white can be seen as offensive? If you really can't see the subtext, the problem is 100% with your ability to consume media critically, not with my ability to do so and understand the messages therein, even if unintentional. So thank you. You are now living proof of why political correctness is needed in society. The year is 2018. Not the time when you had your silly British Empire and were abusing black men. Thanks for your contribution. My country didn't abuse them so I naturally don't find the advertisement offensive. It's not a thought that occurs to me because I don't dislike them.
You're compounding the error being pointed out by others by repeatedly retreating to "it doesn't occur to me, therefore it isn't true." The point folks are making is that what occurs to the individual is actually only one component among many that play a role in dictating whether an act or utterance figures as racist.
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On June 02 2018 22:15 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2018 22:11 iamthedave wrote:On June 02 2018 20:51 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 20:33 iamthedave wrote:On June 02 2018 19:30 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 18:14 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 02 2018 17:26 sc-darkness wrote:As I said in another thread, this is one of the most annoying traits of the west. Too much crying and not enough thinking (aka political correctness). Thought police is so communist. I'm so glad eastern Europe isn't suffering from this syndrome yet. "Political correctness" literally is thinking about what you're saying. Rephrasing your words in a diplomatic way for the person/people you're communicating with. There may be an argument about overthinking or over-analyzing words, but it's bizarre to say political correctness is not thinking and the opposite is. Political correctness at its current level is disgrace because it's overthinking as you say. I'm for some basic political correctness, but not for showing the racism/sexism/whatever card at every little sign you could misinterpret in your own way. Simply put, political correctness is abused by strawmen. E.g. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/dove-apologises-for-ad-showing-black-woman-turning-into-white-one That was an exceptionally poor choice, considering how many better, clearer examples of spurious PC-related incidents there are. I'm white as driven snow and I can see exactly how offensive that is with about 1 second of thought. That is neither a strawman, nor abuse of political correctness, nor even misinterpretation of the imagery presented. You've achieved transcendent wrongness. I applaud. This is a far clearer example of people going a bit nuts: 9. Gillingham fans had begun to fondly offer celery to their goalkeeper, ‘Big Fat’ Jim Stannard. The club, however, decided that celery could result in health and safety issues inside the ground. As a result, fans were subjected to celery searches with the ultimate sanction for possession of celery allegedly being a life ban.’ I'm sorry you're a victim of ultra political correctness and you're equally bad in that respect. Congrats. There's nothing else for me to discuss with you about this topic. I made my point clear and I don't even hate black people. If you find Dove's ad offensive, something is wrong with your interpretation. Edit: Just asked 2 friends and both found Dove's ad normal. Again, it's your inner desire to brand everything racist so you could claim moral high ground. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. That doesn't make you or your friends any less wrong, I'm afraid. You're also making extremely broad assumptions. I didn't say that I found it racist, I said I can see how it is with less than a second's thought. I'm sure Dove did it without a thought in their heads. Hence the swift apology and retraction. Nonetheless... That's the problem.When people first encountered black men from my part of the world, the explorers thought they were dirty and needed a damn good scrubbing to fix them up. And you can't see how an ad for soap that directly suggests it'll 'clean' the black woman and make her white can be seen as offensive? If you really can't see the subtext, the problem is 100% with your ability to consume media critically, not with my ability to do so and understand the messages therein, even if unintentional. So thank you. You are now living proof of why political correctness is needed in society. The year is 2018. Not the time when you had your silly British Empire and were abusing black men. Thanks for your contribution. My country didn't abuse them so I naturally don't find the advertisement offensive. It's not a thought that occurs to me because I don't dislike them.
fine; you don't find it offensive; that doesn't mean it ISN'T offensive; just that you weren't offended.
also, a person from eastern europe may simply be unfamiliar with the particulars of the racial issues that occur in the US. just as I'm sure someone in the US might be unfamiliar with some particulars of issues that are local to where you are and would be sensitive about.
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On June 02 2018 22:15 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2018 22:11 iamthedave wrote:On June 02 2018 20:51 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 20:33 iamthedave wrote:On June 02 2018 19:30 sc-darkness wrote:On June 02 2018 18:14 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 02 2018 17:26 sc-darkness wrote:As I said in another thread, this is one of the most annoying traits of the west. Too much crying and not enough thinking (aka political correctness). Thought police is so communist. I'm so glad eastern Europe isn't suffering from this syndrome yet. "Political correctness" literally is thinking about what you're saying. Rephrasing your words in a diplomatic way for the person/people you're communicating with. There may be an argument about overthinking or over-analyzing words, but it's bizarre to say political correctness is not thinking and the opposite is. Political correctness at its current level is disgrace because it's overthinking as you say. I'm for some basic political correctness, but not for showing the racism/sexism/whatever card at every little sign you could misinterpret in your own way. Simply put, political correctness is abused by strawmen. E.g. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/dove-apologises-for-ad-showing-black-woman-turning-into-white-one That was an exceptionally poor choice, considering how many better, clearer examples of spurious PC-related incidents there are. I'm white as driven snow and I can see exactly how offensive that is with about 1 second of thought. That is neither a strawman, nor abuse of political correctness, nor even misinterpretation of the imagery presented. You've achieved transcendent wrongness. I applaud. This is a far clearer example of people going a bit nuts: 9. Gillingham fans had begun to fondly offer celery to their goalkeeper, ‘Big Fat’ Jim Stannard. The club, however, decided that celery could result in health and safety issues inside the ground. As a result, fans were subjected to celery searches with the ultimate sanction for possession of celery allegedly being a life ban.’ I'm sorry you're a victim of ultra political correctness and you're equally bad in that respect. Congrats. There's nothing else for me to discuss with you about this topic. I made my point clear and I don't even hate black people. If you find Dove's ad offensive, something is wrong with your interpretation. Edit: Just asked 2 friends and both found Dove's ad normal. Again, it's your inner desire to brand everything racist so you could claim moral high ground. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. That doesn't make you or your friends any less wrong, I'm afraid. You're also making extremely broad assumptions. I didn't say that I found it racist, I said I can see how it is with less than a second's thought. I'm sure Dove did it without a thought in their heads. Hence the swift apology and retraction. Nonetheless... That's the problem.When people first encountered black men from my part of the world, the explorers thought they were dirty and needed a damn good scrubbing to fix them up. And you can't see how an ad for soap that directly suggests it'll 'clean' the black woman and make her white can be seen as offensive? If you really can't see the subtext, the problem is 100% with your ability to consume media critically, not with my ability to do so and understand the messages therein, even if unintentional. So thank you. You are now living proof of why political correctness is needed in society. The year is 2018. Not the time when you had your silly British Empire and were abusing black men. Thanks for your contribution. My country didn't abuse them so I naturally don't find the advertisement offensive. It's not a thought that occurs to me because that's a part of history that I hope is forgotten so we can move on.
Yes. It's 2018, where a black man can be shot dead by police in his garage, and the police walks off without charges, while the family get $1 in compensation.
Good to know racism ended with OUR GLORIOUS EMPIRE.
There's also the most important truism to consider: you (or I, or anyone else) don't get to decide whether or not something is offensive. There are plenty of things I find to be fine that don't offend me. For example, I'm an agnostic; I don't get offended by religious stuff, ever. That doesn't mean nothing is offensive to religious people or that they're over-sensitive whiners who should just stop making a fuss.
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On June 02 2018 22:09 farvacola wrote:
No matter the inflection, associating cleanliness with a change in skin color is not a good idea.
Does the black woman use the soap a bit before the ad changes to the white woman?
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Racism is alive and well in the US of A. In fact, it is constantly trying to have its big comeback. This is why people are constantly concerned about. Racism isn’t something that goes away. And folks that hope we can “move on” have not put a lot of thought into what they are saying.
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I just find it hard to imagine that there wasn't someone calling it out at some point in the production process. There's certainly room for a harmless artistic explanation though. I wonder how much the actors involved in the commercial knew about what the end results were going to look like and what they thought about it.
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2 Weeks ago i was in Bratislava (Slowakias capital).
There was some Bachelors party that had a half stripped black guy in chains and his white friends wearing executioners clothes and toy axes while shouting at him...
If you don't think this is offensive, there is something clearly wrong with you. At our carnevals "anything goes" too but you just don't see stuff like this anymore and some groups recently got banned from some parades if the stuff they did was clearly racist.
This isn't "PC taking over", its basic decency...
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On June 02 2018 22:31 Velr wrote:
2 Weeks ago i was in Bratislava (Slowakias capital).
There was some Bachelors party that had a half stripped black guy in chains and his white friends wearing executioners clothes and toy axes while shouting at him...
If you don't think this is offensive, there is something clearly wrong with you. At our carnevals "anything goes" too but you just don't see stuff like this anymore and some groups recently got banned from some parades if the stuff they did was clearly racist.
This isn't "PC taking over", its basic decency...
Sometimes words don't work properly. So...
0_0
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On June 02 2018 22:31 Velr wrote:
2 Weeks ago i was in Bratislava (Slowakias capital).
There was some Bachelors party that had a half stripped black guy in chains and his white friends wearing executioners clothes and toy axes while shouting at him...
If you don't think this is offensive, there is something clearly wrong with you. At our carnevals "anything goes" too but you just don't see stuff like this anymore and some groups recently got banned from some parades if the stuff they did was clearly racist.
This isn't "PC taking over", its basic decency...
I don't think it's offensive because there's a black guy (I know you're going to refer to history here). I find it offensive that ANYONE has to do it. Very distasteful.
On June 02 2018 22:16 farvacola wrote:
You're compounding the error being pointed out by others by repeatedly retreating to "it doesn't occur to me, therefore it isn't true." The point folks are making is that what occurs to the individual is actually only one component among many that play a role in dictating whether an act or utterance figures as racist.
Isn't this this the goal of ending racism? Treating others as equal and having no racist thoughts. Hence, "it doesn't occur to me". So it's a good thing in a way
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On June 02 2018 22:39 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2018 22:31 Velr wrote:
2 Weeks ago i was in Bratislava (Slowakias capital).
There was some Bachelors party that had a half stripped black guy in chains and his white friends wearing executioners clothes and toy axes while shouting at him...
If you don't think this is offensive, there is something clearly wrong with you. At our carnevals "anything goes" too but you just don't see stuff like this anymore and some groups recently got banned from some parades if the stuff they did was clearly racist.
This isn't "PC taking over", its basic decency... I don't think it's offensive because there's a black guy (I know you're going to refer to history here). I find it offensive that ANYONE has to do it. Very distasteful.
Ignore it all you like, historical context matters. It's disgusting for more reasons than toy axes being in poor taste.
On June 02 2018 22:39 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2018 22:16 farvacola wrote:
You're compounding the error being pointed out by others by repeatedly retreating to "it doesn't occur to me, therefore it isn't true." The point folks are making is that what occurs to the individual is actually only one component among many that play a role in dictating whether an act or utterance figures as racist. Isn't this this the goal of ending racism? Treating others as equal and having no racist thoughts. Hence, "it doesn't occur to me". So it's a good thing in a way
The problem is you're saying "I don't see race or color, and racism hasn't been a thing in my corner of the world" when it's still very clearly alive and well, and then using your experience to invalidate the racism that's alive and well today for others. Saying you don't see it doesn't make it go away, and as long as it's around, you're part of the problem.
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EPT
