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On June 03 2018 02:50 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2018 02:05 Excludos wrote:On June 02 2018 22:22 Gahlo wrote:On June 02 2018 22:09 farvacola wrote:
No matter the inflection, associating cleanliness with a change in skin color is not a good idea. Does the black woman use the soap a bit before the ad changes to the white woman? It's an add for a soap, with a "before / after" implication. It's definitively (albeit probably accidental) racist. The fact that a lot of people think it is pretty much automatically means that it is. The only true characteristic of whether something is racist or not is after all what people think of it. Scoffing it off with "Political correctness gone mad" isn't any different than walking up to a religious person, calling Jesus an asshole, and then whining about political correctness when he gets rightfully angry. Just because any one person isn't offended by a specific scenario doesn't make it not wrong. So if a certain amount of people sincerely hold a conviction then they must be right? I think you should reconsider whether that is actually an argument you want to make.
could you elaborate on your point? I may be disagreeing with you, but I'm not sure as it depends on what exactly you mean by your points. What would your objection be if they did indeed want to make that argument?
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On June 03 2018 02:50 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2018 02:05 Excludos wrote:On June 02 2018 22:22 Gahlo wrote:On June 02 2018 22:09 farvacola wrote:
No matter the inflection, associating cleanliness with a change in skin color is not a good idea. Does the black woman use the soap a bit before the ad changes to the white woman? It's an add for a soap, with a "before / after" implication. It's definitively (albeit probably accidental) racist. The fact that a lot of people think it is pretty much automatically means that it is. The only true characteristic of whether something is racist or not is after all what people think of it. Scoffing it off with "Political correctness gone mad" isn't any different than walking up to a religious person, calling Jesus an asshole, and then whining about political correctness when he gets rightfully angry. Just because any one person isn't offended by a specific scenario doesn't make it not wrong. So if a certain amount of people sincerely hold a conviction then they must be right? I think you should reconsider whether that is actually an argument you want to make.
This is kind of vague, and not at all what I said. Opinions are opinions, they are seldom subject to right or wrong. If you have a conviction that the Earth is flat, you are wrong. If you have a conviction that you yourself is offended, then I can't tell you that you are wrong.
Equally, if enough people are offended by an ad because they believe it to be racist, then I can't outright tell them that they are wrong
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On June 03 2018 02:05 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2018 22:22 Gahlo wrote:On June 02 2018 22:09 farvacola wrote:
No matter the inflection, associating cleanliness with a change in skin color is not a good idea. Does the black woman use the soap a bit before the ad changes to the white woman? It's an add for a soap, with a "before / after" implication. It's definitively (albeit probably accidental) racist.The fact that a lot of people think it is pretty much automatically means that it is. The only true characteristic of whether something is racist or not is after all what people think of it. Scoffing it off with "Political correctness gone mad" isn't any different than walking up to a religious person, calling Jesus an asshole, and then whining about political correctness when he gets rightfully angry. Just because any one person isn't offended by a specific scenario doesn't make it not wrong.
Oh, yeah, in that case fuck that commercial. The description I read was just about the woman changing races a couple times by taking her shirt off as a transition.
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Except there is no before/after implication at all, how does that work with 3 women being shown, before/after/???.
Its 3 women of different skin type and color being randomly shown, message being: dove will give you beautiful, clean skin regardless of type or color.
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On June 03 2018 06:28 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2018 02:05 Excludos wrote:On June 02 2018 22:22 Gahlo wrote:On June 02 2018 22:09 farvacola wrote:
No matter the inflection, associating cleanliness with a change in skin color is not a good idea. Does the black woman use the soap a bit before the ad changes to the white woman? It's an add for a soap, with a "before / after" implication. It's definitively (albeit probably accidental) racist.The fact that a lot of people think it is pretty much automatically means that it is. The only true characteristic of whether something is racist or not is after all what people think of it. Scoffing it off with "Political correctness gone mad" isn't any different than walking up to a religious person, calling Jesus an asshole, and then whining about political correctness when he gets rightfully angry. Just because any one person isn't offended by a specific scenario doesn't make it not wrong. Oh, yeah, in that case fuck that commercial. The description I read was just about the woman changing races a couple times by taking her shirt off as a transition.
It was women changed races as they changed clothes. The description you gave is 100% accurate.
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On June 03 2018 06:42 Oleo wrote:
Except there is no before/after implication at all, how does that work with 3 women being shown, before/after/???.
Its 3 women of different skin type and color being randomly shown, message being: dove will give you beautiful, clean skin regardless of type or color.
It's the only reason I think it's accidental racist instead of malicious. In the same vain the ad is saying a white person who washes themselves turn into an Asian (or, more likely, as you said they where just trying to point out that color doesn't matter..which kinda backfired). But of course the latter doesn't have the same historical implications as the first change does.
I'm not hating on Dove for this ad, and I don't think anyone who watched it thinks that Dove is a racist company because of it. You can commit accidental racism without actually being a racist, and in those situations it's fair to point it out and say "not ok", and move on.
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On June 03 2018 06:42 Oleo wrote:
Except there is no before/after implication at all, how does that work with 3 women being shown, before/after/???.
Its 3 women of different skin type and color being randomly shown, message being: dove will give you beautiful, clean skin regardless of type or color.
Yeah, it's not racist. The child who cried wolf...
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On June 03 2018 07:24 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2018 06:42 Oleo wrote:
Except there is no before/after implication at all, how does that work with 3 women being shown, before/after/???.
Its 3 women of different skin type and color being randomly shown, message being: dove will give you beautiful, clean skin regardless of type or color. Yeah, it's not racist. The child who cried wolf...
I think for communication purposes the term that most accurately captures it is "racially insensitive"
This one is straight up racist
+ Show Spoiler +
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It's only racist if you're white, right? Because it's always nice to blame white people for everything (btw I'm white) :D
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You can find racism in everything if you look for it.
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On June 03 2018 07:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2018 07:24 nojok wrote:On June 03 2018 06:42 Oleo wrote:
Except there is no before/after implication at all, how does that work with 3 women being shown, before/after/???.
Its 3 women of different skin type and color being randomly shown, message being: dove will give you beautiful, clean skin regardless of type or color. Yeah, it's not racist. The child who cried wolf... I think for communication purposes the term that most accurately captures it is "racially insensitive"
I don't get how it's insensitive.
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On June 03 2018 08:02 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2018 07:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 03 2018 07:24 nojok wrote:On June 03 2018 06:42 Oleo wrote:
Except there is no before/after implication at all, how does that work with 3 women being shown, before/after/???.
Its 3 women of different skin type and color being randomly shown, message being: dove will give you beautiful, clean skin regardless of type or color. Yeah, it's not racist. The child who cried wolf... I think for communication purposes the term that most accurately captures it is "racially insensitive" I don't get how it's insensitive.
Transforming a Black person into a white person is insensitive to the history of this country and those living in it's shadow.
When you systematically destroy people's culture and force them to adopt your own by threat of torture and/or death it's then insensitive to create imagery that transforms Black people into white people.
On June 03 2018 08:00 Emnjay808 wrote:
You can find racism in everything if you look for it.
There's a reason we went from talking about atrocious and blatant racism to some stupid ad. It's a lot more comfortable for many white people to talk about how racism makes them feel attacked rather than why they are failing so terribly at addressing the issues.
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Wait a minute, why are we talking about white people when the advertisement shows how a black person turns into an Asian dude?
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On June 03 2018 08:20 sc-darkness wrote:
Wait a minute, why are we talking about white people when the advertisement shows how a black person turns into an Asian dude?
Two different situations. That one is racist for what should be obvious reasons. Black is not dirt and doesn't come off in the washer.
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United States43215 Posts
On June 03 2018 07:42 sc-darkness wrote:
It's only racist if you're white, right? Because it's always nice to blame white people for everything (btw I'm white) :D
I mean in fairness white people do pretty much have responsibility for how things are. You can't be in control, enjoy all the benefits of being in control, and then insist that nobody ever blame you for how things are.
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On June 03 2018 09:21 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2018 07:42 sc-darkness wrote:
It's only racist if you're white, right? Because it's always nice to blame white people for everything (btw I'm white) :D I mean in fairness white people do pretty much have responsibility for how things are. You can't be in control, enjoy all the benefits of being in control, and then insist that nobody ever blame you for how things are.
I can't wait for a time where white people aren't in control of the majority of things...some other group will have to figure out how to deal with our divided civilization.
I think that "rich" and "white" are being used interchangeably and shouldn't be...there are plenty of corrupt POCs in power. Just look at Ben "poverty is a mindset" Carson.
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On June 03 2018 12:31 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2018 09:21 KwarK wrote:On June 03 2018 07:42 sc-darkness wrote:
It's only racist if you're white, right? Because it's always nice to blame white people for everything (btw I'm white) :D I mean in fairness white people do pretty much have responsibility for how things are. You can't be in control, enjoy all the benefits of being in control, and then insist that nobody ever blame you for how things are. I can't wait for a time where white people aren't in control of the majority of things...some other group will have to figure out how to deal with our divided civilization. I think that "rich" and "white" are being used interchangeably and shouldn't be...there are plenty of corrupt POCs in power. Just look at Ben "poverty is a mindset" Carson.
Ben Carson is part and parcel of white supremacy. Just because someone is Black doesn't mean they can't be a white supremacist. Plenty of house slaves were white supremacists.
For much of the world it can be reduced to class without devastating the rest of the population, in the US though, there simply isn't a way to address class without including race. There's been several times when the US government sponsored programs to lift people out of poverty, every time black people were exploited to make it better for white people. Every time. There's nothing to indicate that if we did another massive spending policy to lift people out of poverty it would be any different than every other time where it would help lift white people and leave Black people behind.
All that said there are idiots everywhere. You can't find a policy or position that doesn't have idiotic advocates. In that way racism/anti-racism is no different.
I can't wait for a time where white people aren't in control of the majority of things
You and me both. Best I can tell is that exploiting minorities and vulnerable people is literally the only way we can have a society so it's going to have to be white people. Unless they can figure out how to run a society without exploiting vulnerable people before they become the vulnerable ones.
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On June 03 2018 09:21 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2018 07:42 sc-darkness wrote:
It's only racist if you're white, right? Because it's always nice to blame white people for everything (btw I'm white) :D I mean in fairness white people do pretty much have responsibility for how things are. You can't be in control, enjoy all the benefits of being in control, and then insist that nobody ever blame you for how things are.
I refuse to feel guilty for several reasons:
- my country didn't abuse black people as far as I know
- there is such a thing as due date in my opinion
So, Germans shouldn't feel guilty forever for nazis. Americans and British people shouldn't feel guilty forever for Africa or people of African origin, etc.
That's not to say I approve of history; I just dislike being blamed for mistakes 50+ years ago and putting up with that for decades. At some point we should forget about history because it limits the way we interact and we should just get on with each other. Not easily done though.
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On June 03 2018 08:08 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2018 08:02 nojok wrote:On June 03 2018 07:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 03 2018 07:24 nojok wrote:On June 03 2018 06:42 Oleo wrote:
Except there is no before/after implication at all, how does that work with 3 women being shown, before/after/???.
Its 3 women of different skin type and color being randomly shown, message being: dove will give you beautiful, clean skin regardless of type or color. Yeah, it's not racist. The child who cried wolf... I think for communication purposes the term that most accurately captures it is "racially insensitive" I don't get how it's insensitive. Transforming a Black person into a white person is insensitive to the history of this country and those living in it's shadow. When you systematically destroy people's culture and force them to adopt your own by threat of torture and/or death it's then insensitive to create imagery that transforms Black people into white people. Show nested quote +On June 03 2018 08:00 Emnjay808 wrote:
You can find racism in everything if you look for it. There's a reason we went from talking about atrocious and blatant racism to some stupid ad. It's a lot more comfortable for many white people to talk about how racism makes them feel attacked rather than why they are failing so terribly at addressing the issues.
Ok it's very far fetched but I get it. But your second point is exactly the thing I said, focusing on this ad is a distraction from actually racist problems and an hindrance to solve said problems.
We also have some racism issues in France but the descendants from salvery don't feel closely related to slavery. It's a thing from the past though they point some problematic consequences, they don't identify as strongly with their enslaved ancestors. The founders of negritude don't seem full of hatred, they're heavily inspired by the Enlightenment.
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