EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 246
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Gahlo
United States35159 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12262 Posts
In both cases it's not an excuse to not try and better yourself of course. And in the case of racism, there is a case to be made that if people improve on an individual level systemic racism is weakened, which is not really the case for ecology. But the impact feels similar. | ||
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Yurie
11879 Posts
On June 03 2018 22:14 Nebuchad wrote: I find some correlation between discussing racism, conscious or not, on an individual level like this in a society where there is still so much systemic racism and discussing what you can do for ecology on a personal level in a society where the industry in general is responsible for so much more of the emissions and pollution. In both cases it's not an excuse to not try and better yourself of course. And in the case of racism, there is a case to be made that if people improve on an individual level systemic racism is weakened, which is not really the case for ecology. But the impact feels similar. If every single individual stops buying anything more than necessities and then only locally grown/made we would solve the environmental problems pretty instantly. Companies don't make products they can't sell. I am not a good example on that but the change needed is to a large degree on individual level. Companies will of course need to improve as well. You can't manufacture a gold watch in a fully environmentally neutral way currently but the product never needed to be made in the first place if nobody bought it. Same with a Banana Holder or a gasoline Leaf Blower for home usage. At least in the Nordic countries companies are rapidly improving their environmental footprint and taking a societal impact view on the issue. It is one of the nice things about working for them and having it as part of the decision process on top of just the profit. | ||
micronesia
United States24701 Posts
On June 03 2018 15:28 sc-darkness wrote: I refuse to feel guilty for several reasons: - my country didn't abuse black people as far as I know - there is such a thing as due date in my opinion So, Germans shouldn't feel guilty forever for nazis. Americans and British people shouldn't feel guilty forever for Africa or people of African origin, etc. That's not to say I approve of history; I just dislike being blamed for mistakes 50+ years ago and putting up with that for decades. At some point we should forget about history because it limits the way we interact and we should just get on with each other. Not easily done though. This part of the conversation seems to have been overshadowed by the general arguing about what is or is not racist but I think it's important. I do generally agree that we shouldn't be personally blamed for the actions of those that came before us. On the other hand, your thought that we should forget about those actions (i.e., the history) at some point is very scary. We don't need to keep apologizing for it necessarily, but we absolutely must remember and understand it. The moment Germans stop being up front about how awful the Nazis were and say let's forget about it is the moment a similar movement is free to take hold. The same thing applies to the slave trade. Those who do not learn from history are due to repeat it. There is also the fact that some of the damages from your examples are actually still ongoing. | ||
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On June 03 2018 21:37 Plansix wrote: You can accidentally say something racist. I know, my white ass from an all whit community said a few thinghe should have whenI move away from home. It was fine, because I apologized and didn’t do it again. Racism isn’t about intent. What about my example? Is a commercial with a woman working in the kitchen inherently sexist? It's not so much about "accidental racism" or "intent" for me, it's more about the fundamentals of communication and sociology. You can, for example, consider the notion that "black magic" is associated with badness and "white magic" is considered the magic of good as something that is based in racism. But we don't, right? Similarly, I don't think the skin color of the people involved in the commercial matters in the slightest: just because it shows something black (magic or skin), doesn't mean it HAS to be associated with race. And now you get these "ladies for compassionate lynching" on social media who are saying the commercial should be removed, as if that solves anything. Just bleep over it and the problem is gone? Put a black bar over the offending bit and the perception of racism is gone? Ban the book and nobody has any racist thoughts anymore? It's whitewashing of a different kind, really, and one that doesn't do anything to address the fundamental problems. Do you reckon we'll have a society in 100 years where nothing that could be remotely associated with race or gender exists on TV? I mean, if you go forward 100 years, and after being subjected to the "right" kind of media, nobody in society is racist anymore -- is the commercial still racist then if nobody appears to notice it because they don't associate the transition from the black girl to the white girl as being related to the soap? I'm not going to launch some kind of campaign to stop this kind of behavior, but I just think it's dumb. | ||
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micronesia
United States24701 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28683 Posts
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On June 03 2018 23:44 Liquid`Drone wrote: I don't watch much tv nowadays but I'm pretty certain I've seen Norwegian commercials with men doing kitchen stuff so many times that it doesn't make me bat an eye anymore. Yeah, but they still show women too, right? It's not wrong to show women doing kitchen work, just as it's not wrong to show men doing kitchen work. The commercial doesn't depend on that at all to send its message of buying more nonsensical crap. Similarly, I don't think the Dove commercial would be improved by replacing the black girl with a white one. It'd be the same commercial, still pushing its unrealistic beauty standards on society. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On June 03 2018 23:36 micronesia wrote: I wonder what would happen if a company put out a commercial for a kitchen product involving a man doing the kitchen chores. It would probably get a lot of attention which I think would be good publicity and a way to help break out of the mold. Imagine if companies stopped putting out commercials showing an affable dunce of a man totally sucking at household chores? He’s the comedy angle. Frequently he made the mess and woman with Product A smiles knowingly. | ||
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sc-darkness
856 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15712 Posts
On June 03 2018 23:58 Danglars wrote: Imagine if companies stopped putting out commercials showing an affable dunce of a man totally sucking at household chores? He’s the comedy angle. Frequently he made the mess and woman with Product A smiles knowingly. "Men sure are fucking idiots, right, ladies? Fortunately this cleaner gets the job done regardless of how badly your failure of a man fucked up for the 3rd time this week" | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On June 04 2018 00:18 sc-darkness wrote: To change topic to one that's less boring than the current one (it's been discussed too much), how is the Russian investigation going on? Is there some deadline? It feels like forever, but I kind of want Trump to be incriminated as well. That's an even MORE boring topic. At least this one's current. Nothing interesting is going on in the Russian investigation. If it was you'd probably see it beamed onto the surface of the moon at this point. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On June 04 2018 00:18 sc-darkness wrote: To change topic to one that's less boring than the current one (it's been discussed too much), how is the Russian investigation going on? Is there some deadline? It feels like forever, but I kind of want Trump to be incriminated as well. there is no formal deadline, it takes as long as it takes. it's typical for investigations like this to last years. it's probably still got quite aways to go. It's going better than average for such investigations, as it's already gotten a number of indictments and a few guilty pleas. | ||
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sc-darkness
856 Posts
On June 04 2018 00:29 zlefin wrote: there is no formal deadline, it takes as long as it takes. it's typical for investigations like this to last years. it's probably still got quite aways to go. It's going better than average for such investigations, as it's already gotten a number of indictments and a few guilty pleas. So we should expect Trump to cry witch hunt every now and then? He's already lost patience. I can't imagine if he has to endure it for a few more years, haha. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On June 04 2018 00:31 sc-darkness wrote: So we should expect Trump to cry witch hunt every now and then? He's already lost patience. I can't imagine if he has to endure it for a few more years, haha. trump's been crying witch hunt since it started iiirc, so for over a year by now; so yes, he will keep crying witch hunt over it. | ||
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Reivax
Sweden214 Posts
On June 04 2018 00:20 Mohdoo wrote: "Men sure are fucking idiots, right, ladies? Fortunately this cleaner gets the job done regardless of how badly your failure of a man fucked up for the 3rd time this week" The only commercials i am regularly exposed to is at the Cinema and Youtube as i have no regular Tv subscription (only streaming services) but this is a pretty typical swedish commercial i think. Its very rare to have the typical housewife/handyman tropes unless you are being humorous. Edit: vardag would be translated as "everyday life" | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23293 Posts
On June 04 2018 00:18 sc-darkness wrote: To change topic to one that's less boring than the current one (it's been discussed too much), how is the Russian investigation going on? Is there some deadline? It feels like forever, but I kind of want Trump to be incriminated as well. The investigation is basically over, Mueller is going to give his version of "extremely careless" and leave it up to Congress. Congress isn't going to do anything so it will be up to voters. Democrats are explicitly not running on impeachment (or much of anything else) so it's not going to happen. It will be up to voters in 2020 to decide whether Trump gets a second term or not. Which is why Democrats lining up behind Kamala 'The Cop' Harris is all but assuring it will be up to Trump if he wants a second term or not. As for racism and white people not doing enough about it, that's not unrelated to why Trump will be president through at least 2020. Turning the discussion from "what are white people going to do to stop the horrid injustices we see constantly" to "But this dove ad is PC culture run amok", finally to "this dove ad is boring, lets change the subject" is a great rhetorical technique, but it is terrible when it comes to resolving the issue. At some point white America is going to have to confront the reality that the horrid stories they see of abuse, murder, and systemic oppression are their responsibility, they have the power to do something and they simply don't care about the humanity of the people abused enough to do anything about it. This is Amerikkka | ||
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KwarK
United States42956 Posts
On June 03 2018 23:58 Danglars wrote: Imagine if companies stopped putting out commercials showing an affable dunce of a man totally sucking at household chores? He’s the comedy angle. Frequently he made the mess and woman with Product A smiles knowingly. Preface: I don't support that male stereotype and think it's part of a generally demeaning image of male household labour that leads to shit like men "babysitting" when they're taking care of their own kids etc. It sucks and it should change. It's important to distinguish between punching up and punching down. They're both punching, but the damage isn't comparable. To give an example, there is an awful lot of anti-white racism and stereotyping in China, that white people are cheats, that they will try to steal given any opportunity, that kind of thing. But I can laugh about it because I don't need shit from any racist Chinese person because I'm white, have a professional career, and am reasonably affluent. They have no power over me. The stereotype that men are overgrown babies that are incapable of taking care of their own homes is shitty, and hopefully it will change. But it's not as damaging as a lazy Mexican stereotype. | ||
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sc-darkness
856 Posts
On June 04 2018 03:21 KwarK wrote: Preface: I don't support that male stereotype and think it's part of a generally demeaning image of male household labour that leads to shit like men "babysitting" when they're taking care of their own kids etc. It sucks and it should change. To give an example, there is an awful lot of anti-white racism and stereotyping in China, that white people are cheats, that they will try to steal given any opportunity, that kind of thing. But I can laugh about it because I don't need shit from any racist Chinese person because I'm white, have a professional career, and am reasonably affluent. They have no power over me. The stereotype that men are overgrown babies that are incapable of taking care of their own homes is shitty, and hopefully it will change. But it's not as damaging as a lazy Mexican stereotype. You realise how this could be interpreted as white superiority, right? The same thing (ignoring racial implications) you were accusing me of about Dove's advert. Oops!  Are you going to edit your post now? | ||
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