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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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"Take a knee" was already unacceptable to americans. And i really cannot think of a more peaceful and respectful protest.
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On June 01 2020 23:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2020 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 01 2020 21:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 01 2020 20:52 Simberto wrote:
I don't think a lot of people here are saying that rioting is really nice and cool (except maybe GH).
My point at least was "Why are we always only talking about rioting, and not about the utterly unjust justice system?". I think that rioting sucks, but is understandable, and that we should focus on the main topic at hand, namely that US police kill way too many people, and are not held responsible for that nearly enough. The US isn't even collecting data on how many people the police kill. That in itself is utterly and completely absurd. Every case where police kills someone should lead to a major investigation by an independent agency by default.
The main focus here should be on reforming the US police. Demilitarization, accountability, a new focus on "serve and protect (the citizens)", not "serve and protect yourself" Despite what people may believe I too believe uprisings suck. People suffer, wealth is lost, we destroy our lands, etc. They are a measure of last resort. There's a confluence of factors leading to what we're seeing now. If it were just systemic racist violence by police spurring these actions, they wouldn't be a fraction as massive/radical. That they refuse to even do something as basic as arrest the accomplices in this murder while others call for a more detailed treatise of requests before progress can be made (congress just goes on vacation) is emblematic of just how badly people from all walks are failing to grasp the size and significance of this moment imo. Having a competent government capable of meeting the needs of it's people (and adjust in a reasonable amount of time) is much more preferable than having to take to the streets risking life and limb just to get what the constitution already promises us. It's part of what is so infuriatingly insulting when people ignorantly propose that others pursue an unspecified or demonstratively ineffective strategy instead. I couldn't agree more. + Show Spoiler +What people don't realize is that riots sometimes ends up being the only way to be heard. Police officers not being held accountable for horrific acts of violence and murders against black folks have been going on for decades and no one seems to really talk about them. It's sad that it takes a riot before it makes the news, but instead of blaming rioters, we should ask yourself why we don't care until people start burning shit. I don't know much about the justice system in the US, but isn't the lack of accountability of police officers related to the fact that the judges are nothing without police cooperation? What I understood is that the police can basically make the job if judges or prosecutors if they get pissed of at them. That seems actually quite hard to fix; you need either a parallel justice system or changing the role of the police drastically in the judicial process.Then again, I don't know the details. I didn't land on police abolition (revolutionary politics, or socialism/communism either for that matter) because I read a viral tweet, want to be an edgelord teen, haven't thought about this stuff seriously or any of the other derogatory and dismissive attacks I've endured here or much worse elsewhere. A lifelong experience as a Black person in the US, researching the experiences of those that came before me, having my own run-ins with the criminal justice system, listening to the smartest most experienced community leaders and academics from past and present I can find, as well as more than a decade trying to work within the Democratic party including being a local delegate for Obama in 08 and arguing with old white ladies about why he was better than Hillary at caucuses and a whole lot of other directly relevant research and experience is how I got here. I don't mind disagreeing with people (happens in my own political circles frequently enough), what is incredible to endure are those who deign to paternally set the timetable of my liberation to their convenience without so much as a fraction of the effort to change it from something they hope I have one day to something we all share as promised more than a century ago. In this brief moment of egregious and incontrovertible horror a portion of people have seen the absurdity in this. But too soon, or as soon as we look beyond this particular systemic horror of police brutality the old lines of self-interest and preservation of the status quo demolish the bonds of class and racial solidarity built in these moments and the systemic issues underlying the greater socioeconomic suffering and exploitation go back to being beyond the realm of pragmatic plausibility until the next uprising. I'm tired of this.We're all tired. People are going to burn it all down and start from scratch if all people have is "wait, what about another way I have no insight on? You can't deny riots have negative consequences". It's an asinine point to raise at this point.
When you burn it down, you're not just taking down the bad apples. You're taking the entirety of the community down with you. Is that something we should be okay with?
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On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:16 Zambrah wrote:
Do we collectively agree that passive and peaceful action has been tried and has been shown to be ineffective? Whether or not mayhem is ideal, has peaceful non-violent protesting and voting done any good? I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business?
Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed.
Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day?
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On June 01 2020 23:35 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2020 23:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 01 2020 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 01 2020 21:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 01 2020 20:52 Simberto wrote:
I don't think a lot of people here are saying that rioting is really nice and cool (except maybe GH).
My point at least was "Why are we always only talking about rioting, and not about the utterly unjust justice system?". I think that rioting sucks, but is understandable, and that we should focus on the main topic at hand, namely that US police kill way too many people, and are not held responsible for that nearly enough. The US isn't even collecting data on how many people the police kill. That in itself is utterly and completely absurd. Every case where police kills someone should lead to a major investigation by an independent agency by default.
The main focus here should be on reforming the US police. Demilitarization, accountability, a new focus on "serve and protect (the citizens)", not "serve and protect yourself" Despite what people may believe I too believe uprisings suck. People suffer, wealth is lost, we destroy our lands, etc. They are a measure of last resort. There's a confluence of factors leading to what we're seeing now. If it were just systemic racist violence by police spurring these actions, they wouldn't be a fraction as massive/radical. That they refuse to even do something as basic as arrest the accomplices in this murder while others call for a more detailed treatise of requests before progress can be made (congress just goes on vacation) is emblematic of just how badly people from all walks are failing to grasp the size and significance of this moment imo. Having a competent government capable of meeting the needs of it's people (and adjust in a reasonable amount of time) is much more preferable than having to take to the streets risking life and limb just to get what the constitution already promises us. It's part of what is so infuriatingly insulting when people ignorantly propose that others pursue an unspecified or demonstratively ineffective strategy instead. I couldn't agree more. + Show Spoiler +What people don't realize is that riots sometimes ends up being the only way to be heard. Police officers not being held accountable for horrific acts of violence and murders against black folks have been going on for decades and no one seems to really talk about them. It's sad that it takes a riot before it makes the news, but instead of blaming rioters, we should ask yourself why we don't care until people start burning shit. I don't know much about the justice system in the US, but isn't the lack of accountability of police officers related to the fact that the judges are nothing without police cooperation? What I understood is that the police can basically make the job if judges or prosecutors if they get pissed of at them. That seems actually quite hard to fix; you need either a parallel justice system or changing the role of the police drastically in the judicial process.Then again, I don't know the details. I didn't land on police abolition (revolutionary politics, or socialism/communism either for that matter) because I read a viral tweet, want to be an edgelord teen, haven't thought about this stuff seriously or any of the other derogatory and dismissive attacks I've endured here or much worse elsewhere. A lifelong experience as a Black person in the US, researching the experiences of those that came before me, having my own run-ins with the criminal justice system, listening to the smartest most experienced community leaders and academics from past and present I can find, as well as more than a decade trying to work within the Democratic party including being a local delegate for Obama in 08 and arguing with old white ladies about why he was better than Hillary at caucuses and a whole lot of other directly relevant research and experience is how I got here. I don't mind disagreeing with people (happens in my own political circles frequently enough), what is incredible to endure are those who deign to paternally set the timetable of my liberation to their convenience without so much as a fraction of the effort to change it from something they hope I have one day to something we all share as promised more than a century ago. In this brief moment of egregious and incontrovertible horror a portion of people have seen the absurdity in this. But too soon, or as soon as we look beyond this particular systemic horror of police brutality the old lines of self-interest and preservation of the status quo demolish the bonds of class and racial solidarity built in these moments and the systemic issues underlying the greater socioeconomic suffering and exploitation go back to being beyond the realm of pragmatic plausibility until the next uprising. I'm tired of this.We're all tired. People are going to burn it all down and start from scratch if all people have is "wait, what about another way I have no insight on? You can't deny riots have negative consequences". It's an asinine point to raise at this point. When you burn it down, you're not just taking down the bad apples. You're taking the entirety of the community down with you. Is that something we should be okay with?
You don't want my opinion on what you should do. With that, allies can handle this kinda nonsense moving forward here, I'm done for a while.
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https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/04/09/race-in-america-2019/
This article is pretty illuminating. Only 15% of white people consider their race/ethnicity to be very or extremely important to how they think about themselves while this is the case for 74% of black people.
This is probably goes a long way to explaining why conservative white people find it so hard to understand why black people like to bring up race so much. It also explains why they often like to talk about how they are not racist because they feel like society should not care at all about race and they think liberals are the "true racists" for bringing up race all the time. I think most white people are not very self-conscious of their race because they are not judged nearly as often on the basis of their race as black people.
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On June 01 2020 23:57 Anc13nt wrote:https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/04/09/race-in-america-2019/This article is pretty illuminating. Only 15% of white people consider their race/ethnicity to be very or extremely important to how they think about themselves while this is the case for 74% of black people. This is probably goes a long way to explaining why conservative white people find it so hard to understand why black people like to bring up race so much. It also explains why they often like to talk about how they are not racist because they feel like society should not care at all about race and they think liberals are the "true racists" for bringing up race all the time. I think most white people are not very self-conscious of their race because they are not judged nearly as often on the basis of their race as black people.
That's the crux of White privilege. White people can set racial issues down whenever they want, if they ever get tired of it. Black people don't have that luxury. They're reminded on a regular basis that they're targeted for the color of their skin. White people don't get harassed for being white, so they don't have to think about how their race plays a role in things. That's the whole thrust of it. So yeah, pretty illuminating.
On June 01 2020 23:35 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2020 23:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 01 2020 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 01 2020 21:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 01 2020 20:52 Simberto wrote:
I don't think a lot of people here are saying that rioting is really nice and cool (except maybe GH).
My point at least was "Why are we always only talking about rioting, and not about the utterly unjust justice system?". I think that rioting sucks, but is understandable, and that we should focus on the main topic at hand, namely that US police kill way too many people, and are not held responsible for that nearly enough. The US isn't even collecting data on how many people the police kill. That in itself is utterly and completely absurd. Every case where police kills someone should lead to a major investigation by an independent agency by default.
The main focus here should be on reforming the US police. Demilitarization, accountability, a new focus on "serve and protect (the citizens)", not "serve and protect yourself" Despite what people may believe I too believe uprisings suck. People suffer, wealth is lost, we destroy our lands, etc. They are a measure of last resort. There's a confluence of factors leading to what we're seeing now. If it were just systemic racist violence by police spurring these actions, they wouldn't be a fraction as massive/radical. That they refuse to even do something as basic as arrest the accomplices in this murder while others call for a more detailed treatise of requests before progress can be made (congress just goes on vacation) is emblematic of just how badly people from all walks are failing to grasp the size and significance of this moment imo. Having a competent government capable of meeting the needs of it's people (and adjust in a reasonable amount of time) is much more preferable than having to take to the streets risking life and limb just to get what the constitution already promises us. It's part of what is so infuriatingly insulting when people ignorantly propose that others pursue an unspecified or demonstratively ineffective strategy instead. I couldn't agree more. + Show Spoiler +What people don't realize is that riots sometimes ends up being the only way to be heard. Police officers not being held accountable for horrific acts of violence and murders against black folks have been going on for decades and no one seems to really talk about them. It's sad that it takes a riot before it makes the news, but instead of blaming rioters, we should ask yourself why we don't care until people start burning shit. I don't know much about the justice system in the US, but isn't the lack of accountability of police officers related to the fact that the judges are nothing without police cooperation? What I understood is that the police can basically make the job if judges or prosecutors if they get pissed of at them. That seems actually quite hard to fix; you need either a parallel justice system or changing the role of the police drastically in the judicial process.Then again, I don't know the details. I didn't land on police abolition (revolutionary politics, or socialism/communism either for that matter) because I read a viral tweet, want to be an edgelord teen, haven't thought about this stuff seriously or any of the other derogatory and dismissive attacks I've endured here or much worse elsewhere. A lifelong experience as a Black person in the US, researching the experiences of those that came before me, having my own run-ins with the criminal justice system, listening to the smartest most experienced community leaders and academics from past and present I can find, as well as more than a decade trying to work within the Democratic party including being a local delegate for Obama in 08 and arguing with old white ladies about why he was better than Hillary at caucuses and a whole lot of other directly relevant research and experience is how I got here. I don't mind disagreeing with people (happens in my own political circles frequently enough), what is incredible to endure are those who deign to paternally set the timetable of my liberation to their convenience without so much as a fraction of the effort to change it from something they hope I have one day to something we all share as promised more than a century ago. In this brief moment of egregious and incontrovertible horror a portion of people have seen the absurdity in this. But too soon, or as soon as we look beyond this particular systemic horror of police brutality the old lines of self-interest and preservation of the status quo demolish the bonds of class and racial solidarity built in these moments and the systemic issues underlying the greater socioeconomic suffering and exploitation go back to being beyond the realm of pragmatic plausibility until the next uprising. I'm tired of this.We're all tired. People are going to burn it all down and start from scratch if all people have is "wait, what about another way I have no insight on? You can't deny riots have negative consequences". It's an asinine point to raise at this point. When you burn it down, you're not just taking down the bad apples. You're taking the entirety of the community down with you. Is that something we should be okay with?
Nobody's okay with it. People don't want to riot. They don't do this for shits and giggles. Yeah, it sucks. But for the people on the streets, they feel they have no choice because the community they're breaking down never did anything for them. And no matter how many times they tried to protest and make their struggles known, people ignored them. Of course a riot isn't ideal, and of course it isn't healthy. A heart attack isn't healthy either. It's a cry for help in a broken system.
How many stupid fucking debates did we have in this thread even, about whether Kaepernick's protest was acceptable? That informs this situation a lot.
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On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:16 Zambrah wrote:
Do we collectively agree that passive and peaceful action has been tried and has been shown to be ineffective? Whether or not mayhem is ideal, has peaceful non-violent protesting and voting done any good? I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day?
I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again.
The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that.
Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one.
That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground?
I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas:
-There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately.
-Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable.
-We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy.
This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated?
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On June 01 2020 21:47 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2020 14:48 Danglars wrote:On June 01 2020 13:50 Zambrah wrote:
I think that during such serious civil unrest congress should very much remain in session and communicate some plan of action. If Congress appears unwilling or incapable of addressing something as serious as this then why should people ever stop rioting and burning down police stations, etc. etc.
I have a hard time accepting inaction at times like these. Legislation passed quickly in a crisis is why we get things like the Patriot Act. Like congressmen seizing powers from states to force police departments to obey their will. Just imagine Trump having GOP control of both houses, and take ten seconds to think what they would do with powers given during major urban riots. The only thing they should be doing is debating and amending legislation to bring QI back to something reasonable. Agreed here, many a terrible law, policy or spending program has been embarked upon for the mere reason of doing something, or being seen to have been doing something. Visibly kickstarting a proper, well structured reform process is something that could/should be happening, one involving the various different groups and actors. QI? New one on me although I guess contextually I have a vague idea.
Qualified immunity is ripe for reform. You can find dozens of articles on why it should be limited or ended, but here’s one from Reason. Cops get away with stealing $250,000 during a search warrant or even shootings. NYT link as well.
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On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:16 Zambrah wrote:
Do we collectively agree that passive and peaceful action has been tried and has been shown to be ineffective? Whether or not mayhem is ideal, has peaceful non-violent protesting and voting done any good? I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated?
Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act.
Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s.
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How many stupid fucking debates did we have in this thread even, about whether Kaepernick's protest was acceptable? That informs this situation a lot.
I don't think people appreciate how fing terrorizing that 'debate' is and how offensive seemingly innocuous questions and opinions often are. Imagine half the voting public was vocally disputing whether you kneeling to draw attention to systemic violence targeting you was too egregious an affront to their sensibilities and "yes it is too egregious" won.
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On June 02 2020 00:11 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:16 Zambrah wrote:
Do we collectively agree that passive and peaceful action has been tried and has been shown to be ineffective? Whether or not mayhem is ideal, has peaceful non-violent protesting and voting done any good? I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated? Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act. Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s.
Montgomery county, December 1, 1955. Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat. This leads black community leaders to form the Montgomery improvement Association, which stages a boycott of the bus system. On November 14th 1956, the supreme court rules that segregated seating is unconstitutional.
Burning your community to the ground is not the only way to do this
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On June 02 2020 00:24 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 00:11 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:16 Zambrah wrote:
Do we collectively agree that passive and peaceful action has been tried and has been shown to be ineffective? Whether or not mayhem is ideal, has peaceful non-violent protesting and voting done any good? I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated? Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act. Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s. Montgomery county, December 1, 1955. Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat. This leads black community leaders to form the Montgomery improvement Association, which stages a boycott of the bus system. On November 14th 1956, the supreme court rules that segregated seating is unconstitutional. Burning your community to the ground is not the only way to do this
Let me clarify: Are you saying protests similar to Rosa Parks hasn't been tried recently? To your knowledge, which forms of non-violent protest have been absent in the last 5 years?
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I'm somewhat amazed at how effective propaganda has been at painting MLK and Rosa Parks as the main driving forces behind the civil rights movement.
It took both violent and nonviolent actors to achieve change back then. Malcolm X and the black panthers were always there as the alternative if no change happened. They got Reagan of all people to ban open carry of weapons in california.
There were also a ton of huge race riots during the 60s. Most famous was the watts riots. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_riots
The people in power have a vested interest in painting peaceful protest as the ideal way to go. So when they write the textbooks, they credit MLK and Rosa Parks. A peaceful protest can be ignored - it has no effect on the livelihood of those in power(or their funders). The economic damage of a riot is the point. I'm not arguing for them, but the way to stop them is to prevent the conditions that lead to them.
The largest protests ever were against the iraq war. Last I checked, people barely remember them and those in power didn't give two shits about it.
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On June 02 2020 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 00:24 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:11 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:16 Zambrah wrote:
Do we collectively agree that passive and peaceful action has been tried and has been shown to be ineffective? Whether or not mayhem is ideal, has peaceful non-violent protesting and voting done any good? I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated? Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act. Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s. Montgomery county, December 1, 1955. Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat. This leads black community leaders to form the Montgomery improvement Association, which stages a boycott of the bus system. On November 14th 1956, the supreme court rules that segregated seating is unconstitutional. Burning your community to the ground is not the only way to do this Let me clarify: Are you saying protests similar to Rosa Parks hasn't been tried recently? To your knowledge, which forms of non-violent protest have been absent in the last 5 years?
That didn't end the way he thinks it did either. Parks was chased out of Montgomery and white backlash cost many people their lives. Of course people also remember (obviously not) the Freedom Riders getting their asses whooped repeatedly because of the lack of enforcement of that aforementioned SC decision.
I don't know why people say these obviously ahistorical things like they're dropping knowledge.
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The Rosa Parks example is an interesting one that doesn't really help the "why won't anyone admit riots are bad" point if one analyzes her act of resistance against the backdrop of what was and was not accepted in society. Ubiquitous segregation in basically all public places was the norm in places like Montgomery County, so much so that it makes sense that an act of resistance that directly flouts that norm, like a black woman refusing to move on a segregated bus, proved a powerful starter for all sorts of progress. (with the obvious complication that comes from context like GH points out)
If we follow that line of "doing things that society says one cannot do" as a basis for progressive action, it isn't hard to see how we arrive at mass tinderbox protests that lead to violence if we admit that a lot of the superficial vestiges of racism, like ubiquitous public segregation, have been put to rest. The problem, as many have pointed out, is that the non-superficial vestiges of racism, the ones that run deep beneath the surface, are actually more fundamentally problematic than stuff like bus segregation and continue to go almost entirely unaddressed. That's related to why the Black Lives Matter movement is itself an important rhetorical iteration of resistance. It does Rosa Parks bus sitting, but in conversational terms that have a very good chance of teasing out latent vestiges of racism of the sort that many deny exist at all.
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On June 02 2020 00:40 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:24 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:11 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:16 Zambrah wrote:
Do we collectively agree that passive and peaceful action has been tried and has been shown to be ineffective? Whether or not mayhem is ideal, has peaceful non-violent protesting and voting done any good? I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated? Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act. Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s. Montgomery county, December 1, 1955. Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat. This leads black community leaders to form the Montgomery improvement Association, which stages a boycott of the bus system. On November 14th 1956, the supreme court rules that segregated seating is unconstitutional. Burning your community to the ground is not the only way to do this Let me clarify: Are you saying protests similar to Rosa Parks hasn't been tried recently? To your knowledge, which forms of non-violent protest have been absent in the last 5 years? That didn't end the way he thinks it did either. Parks was chased out of Montgomery and white backlash cost many people their lives. Of course people also remember (obviously not) the Freedom Riders getting their asses whooped repeatedly because of the lack of enforcement of that aforementioned SC decision. I don't know why people say these obviously ahistorical things like they're dropping knowledge.
The reason that I and others say things like that is because we have a point to argue. Is that so hard to understand?
Also I thought you excused yourself from the conversation earlier, nice to have you back. I wish you hadn't reappeared with a condescending and patronizing statement about what I think, but nice to have you back anyway
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On June 02 2020 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 00:24 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:11 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:16 Zambrah wrote:
Do we collectively agree that passive and peaceful action has been tried and has been shown to be ineffective? Whether or not mayhem is ideal, has peaceful non-violent protesting and voting done any good? I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated? Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act. Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s. Montgomery county, December 1, 1955. Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat. This leads black community leaders to form the Montgomery improvement Association, which stages a boycott of the bus system. On November 14th 1956, the supreme court rules that segregated seating is unconstitutional. Burning your community to the ground is not the only way to do this Let me clarify: Are you saying protests similar to Rosa Parks hasn't been tried recently? To your knowledge, which forms of non-violent protest have been absent in the last 5 years?
I'm sure they have
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On June 02 2020 00:48 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 00:40 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 02 2020 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:24 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:11 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:16 Zambrah wrote:
Do we collectively agree that passive and peaceful action has been tried and has been shown to be ineffective? Whether or not mayhem is ideal, has peaceful non-violent protesting and voting done any good? I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated? Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act. Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s. Montgomery county, December 1, 1955. Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat. This leads black community leaders to form the Montgomery improvement Association, which stages a boycott of the bus system. On November 14th 1956, the supreme court rules that segregated seating is unconstitutional. Burning your community to the ground is not the only way to do this Let me clarify: Are you saying protests similar to Rosa Parks hasn't been tried recently? To your knowledge, which forms of non-violent protest have been absent in the last 5 years? That didn't end the way he thinks it did either. Parks was chased out of Montgomery and white backlash cost many people their lives. Of course people also remember (obviously not) the Freedom Riders getting their asses whooped repeatedly because of the lack of enforcement of that aforementioned SC decision. I don't know why people say these obviously ahistorical things like they're dropping knowledge. The reason that I and others say things like that is because we have a point to argue. Is that so hard to understand? Also I thought you excused yourself from the conversation earlier, nice to have you back. I wish you hadn't reappeared with a condescending and patronizing statement about what I think, but nice to have you back anyway
As Farv mentioned, I know why, it was rhetorical.
Anyone with knowledge of the context of your point should find that offensive was the argument I was making earlier. You're essentially saying "boycott" (not even economically viable), "then if you manage to win some SC case in the conservative court eventually, don't expect it to be enforced. That'll take a few more years of being beaten and killed without accountability.
Maybe it is sincerely just ignorance and that's not what you mean to say because you really thought your Rosa Parks point was valid. For which I'd generally blame the whitewashed history we teach in this country. But you know better imo.
On June 02 2020 00:51 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:24 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:11 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:16 Zambrah wrote:
Do we collectively agree that passive and peaceful action has been tried and has been shown to be ineffective? Whether or not mayhem is ideal, has peaceful non-violent protesting and voting done any good? I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated? Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act. Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s. Montgomery county, December 1, 1955. Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat. This leads black community leaders to form the Montgomery improvement Association, which stages a boycott of the bus system. On November 14th 1956, the supreme court rules that segregated seating is unconstitutional. Burning your community to the ground is not the only way to do this Let me clarify: Are you saying protests similar to Rosa Parks hasn't been tried recently? To your knowledge, which forms of non-violent protest have been absent in the last 5 years? I'm sure they have
Yeah, see, you know what you're doing.
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On June 02 2020 00:51 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:24 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:11 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:16 Zambrah wrote:
Do we collectively agree that passive and peaceful action has been tried and has been shown to be ineffective? Whether or not mayhem is ideal, has peaceful non-violent protesting and voting done any good? I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated? Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act. Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s. Montgomery county, December 1, 1955. Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat. This leads black community leaders to form the Montgomery improvement Association, which stages a boycott of the bus system. On November 14th 1956, the supreme court rules that segregated seating is unconstitutional. Burning your community to the ground is not the only way to do this Let me clarify: Are you saying protests similar to Rosa Parks hasn't been tried recently? To your knowledge, which forms of non-violent protest have been absent in the last 5 years? I'm sure they have
So if we can say those things have been done already, and people are ***dying***, what incentive would you say activists have to pursue those avenues again? Keep in mind the issue here is police killing Black People. Its not a monument getting taken down, or asking a sports team to change their name, we are talking about people being alive one day, and then dead the next day, because a cop decided to kill them. To me, that is a really, really, really big issue that warrants stopping other stuff to prioritize.
I understand that if you are thinking peaceful protests were more effective than violent in the past, it totally makes sense to advocate for peaceful protests. But it is important to recognize that violence is often a crucial part in fight oppressors. People have already described this dynamic above, so I hope you can consider that this may truly be the final option.
This has been an issue for a long time, right? This is the first big riot in a very long time, right? So then we would say people have been doing a variety of other things until now. That is why a lot of people are angry: the frustration with the fact that peaceful protests don't work.
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