EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2361
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23671 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26304 Posts
On June 01 2020 14:48 Danglars wrote: Legislation passed quickly in a crisis is why we get things like the Patriot Act. Like congressmen seizing powers from states to force police departments to obey their will. Just imagine Trump having GOP control of both houses, and take ten seconds to think what they would do with powers given during major urban riots. The only thing they should be doing is debating and amending legislation to bring QI back to something reasonable. Agreed here, many a terrible law, policy or spending program has been embarked upon for the mere reason of doing something, or being seen to have been doing something. Visibly kickstarting a proper, well structured reform process is something that could/should be happening, one involving the various different groups and actors. QI? New one on me although I guess contextually I have a vague idea. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26304 Posts
On June 01 2020 21:03 GreenHorizons wrote: Despite what people may believe I too believe uprisings suck. People suffer, wealth is lost, we destroy our lands, etc. They are a measure of last resort. There's a confluence of factors leading to what we're seeing now. If it were just systemic racist violence by police spurring these actions, they wouldn't be a fraction as massive/radical. That they refuse to even do something as basic as arrest the accomplices in this murder while others call for a more detailed treatise of requests before progress can be made (congress just goes on vacation) is emblematic of just how badly people from all walks are failing to grasp the size and significance of this moment imo. Having a competent government capable of meeting the needs of it's people (and adjust in a reasonable amount of time) is much more preferable than having to take to the streets risking life and limb just to get what the constitution already promises us. It's part of what is so infuriatingly insulting when people ignorantly propose that others pursue an unspecified or demonstratively ineffective strategy instead. Why would many people disenfranchised and lacking the ability to actually own much property should overly care about some collateral damage, after yet another incident of someone being killed for no reason whatsoever? Especially at a time of such huge economic uncertainty where the government can sort out mortgage relief programs but not extend that to rent relief. I’m unsure how much of those grievances are blending over into these riots, I’m sure there must be a fair bit of crossover. You’re much more clued in than I GH, I’m merely pontificating but perhaps you can add actual insight. At least over here people I know who are usually merely grumpy about society are now extremely angry, Covid has really visually manifested the dividing lines of class in this country. If we added Catholics being shot for no reason into the equation I’m pretty sure we’d see rioting on the level of the Troubles again. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
list of demands by some Cincinnati protestors | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9036 Posts
@Artisreal thank you for the link and responding to his question. Weird how that got glossed over by so many people or dodged. E: Read the link and the demands seem reasonable and something that is well within the city to accommodate without much effort. The data that they request will take time of course, but it should be available to the public. | ||
micronesia
United States24755 Posts
On June 01 2020 21:45 GreenHorizons wrote: Anyone know what's going on in DC, there's definitely some misinformation going around but also something seems to be up? I was told to telework outside of DC today. I do not know if that was out of an abundance of caution or not. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35171 Posts
On June 01 2020 20:45 Manifesto7 wrote: No, I think you missed the point I was trying to make. The people rationalizing property damage because of the existence of insurance are the ones I take issue with, not the ones rationalizing property damage as a form of protest. Then take issue with the system not changing, because that's the cause of it. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On June 01 2020 22:31 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: I've read reports that the protests have gone global in Germany, UK, and India I believe. Anything anyone from those areas can shed insight on? @Artisreal thank you for the link and responding to his question. Weird how that got glossed over by so many people or dodged. I can understand that a specific list of demands is not regarded as worthwhile when the excercise has been done to the point of exhaustion over the last decades. Insofar as no ever so detailed list of bullet points will make a difference if the addressee doesn't want to listen. With regard to your question, there was a huge demonstration in front of the US Embassy here in Berlin on saturday - 2,000 protestors - and the following mural was painted in a highly frequented park: ![[image loading]](https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/5056390df9f54cc00dc63a9c819e8872e00e7e6b/0_76_3500_2102/master/3500.jpg?width=620&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=1b7e7c44a2d9a545cb9b9778d7b54bdd) | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23671 Posts
On June 01 2020 22:41 Artisreal wrote: I can understand that a specific list of demands is not regarded as worthwhile when the excercise has been done to the point of exhaustion over the last decades. Insofar as no ever so detailed list of bullet points will make a difference if the addressee doesn't want to listen. With regard to your question, there was a huge demonstration in front of the US Embassy here in Berlin on saturday - 2,000 protestors - and the following mural was painted in a highly frequented park: Indeed, besides the one I mentioned as the most obvious listed at #1 the rest are old/standard demands that are as I said longstanding locally and nationally. Pretty sure most of the non Cincinnati specific ones have almost all been mentioned here. There's no disputing that the issue is NOT that the demands aren't known/clear. That was thoroughly debunked (here and elsewhere) at least as far back as the Ferguson uprisings. It is clearly a distraction from the intransigence of those in power and their allies. (next comes disputing the plausibility and effectiveness, usually with the old "that doesn't solve everything without any negative consequences and republicans will never allow it" bs) Wall's dope | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7986 Posts
On June 01 2020 21:03 GreenHorizons wrote: Despite what people may believe I too believe uprisings suck. People suffer, wealth is lost, we destroy our lands, etc. They are a measure of last resort. There's a confluence of factors leading to what we're seeing now. If it were just systemic racist violence by police spurring these actions, they wouldn't be a fraction as massive/radical. That they refuse to even do something as basic as arrest the accomplices in this murder while others call for a more detailed treatise of requests before progress can be made (congress just goes on vacation) is emblematic of just how badly people from all walks are failing to grasp the size and significance of this moment imo. Having a competent government capable of meeting the needs of it's people (and adjust in a reasonable amount of time) is much more preferable than having to take to the streets risking life and limb just to get what the constitution already promises us. It's part of what is so infuriatingly insulting when people ignorantly propose that others pursue an unspecified or demonstratively ineffective strategy instead. I couldn't agree more. What people don't realize is that riots sometimes ends up being the only way to be heard. Police officers not being held accountable for horrific acts of violence and murders against black folks have been going on for decades and no one seems to really talk about them. It's sad that it takes a riot before it makes the news, but instead of blaming rioters, we should ask yourself why we don't care until people start burning shit. I don't know much about the justice system in the US, but isn't the lack of accountability of police officers related to the fact that the judges are nothing without police cooperation? What I understood is that the police can basically make the job if judges or prosecutors if they get pissed of at them. That seems actually quite hard to fix; you need either a parallel justice system or changing the role of the police drastically in the judicial process. Then again, I don't know the details. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9036 Posts
On June 01 2020 22:41 Artisreal wrote: I can understand that a specific list of demands is not regarded as worthwhile when the excercise has been done to the point of exhaustion over the last decades. Insofar as no ever so detailed list of bullet points will make a difference if the addressee doesn't want to listen. With regard to your question, there was a huge demonstration in front of the US Embassy here in Berlin on saturday - 2,000 protestors - and the following mural was painted in a highly frequented park: I can dig that answer and appreciate it. I took the question posed by puppykiller to be one of what solutions can people ask for now and later as these protests go on. If they've already been discussed before, that's fine, copy/paste that list. If the addressee doesn't want to listen, then how to solve that issue. There seems to me to be some room for discussion on the topic, even if it is short lived. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On June 01 2020 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote: I couldn't agree more. What people don't realize is that riots sometimes ends up being the only way to be heard. Police officers not being held accountable for horrific acts of violence and murders against black folks have been going on for decades and no one seems to really talk about them. It's sad that it takes a riot before it makes the news, but instead of blaming rioters, we should ask yourself why we don't care until people start burning shit. I don't know much about the justice system in the US, but isn't the lack of accountability of police officers related to the fact that the judges are nothing without police cooperation? What I understood is that the police can basically make the job if judges or prosecutors if they get pissed of at them. That seems actually quite hard to fix; you need either a parallel justice system or changing the role of the police drastically in the judicial process. Then again, I don't know the details. I think you mean prosecutors not judges. Prosecutors are elected officials in the US (with a ton of different titles depending on the state you're in). The police union holds an incredible amount of power on who gets elected to these positions since people don't vote in this country. If you're a prosecutor who doesn't protect cops you aren't going to get reelected. Look at Geogia and the Ahmaud Arbery case. The prosecutor in Geogia is called a district attorney. Why are they on their fourth district attorney in the case? | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
On June 01 2020 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote: I couldn't agree more. What people don't realize is that riots sometimes ends up being the only way to be heard. Police officers not being held accountable for horrific acts of violence and murders against black folks have been going on for decades and no one seems to really talk about them. It's sad that it takes a riot before it makes the news, but instead of blaming rioters, we should ask yourself why we don't care until people start burning shit. I don't know much about the justice system in the US, but isn't the lack of accountability of police officers related to the fact that the judges are nothing without police cooperation? What I understood is that the police can basically make the job if judges or prosecutors if they get pissed of at them. That seems actually quite hard to fix; you need either a parallel justice system or changing the role of the police drastically in the judicial process. Then again, I don't know the details. While I agree that enough is enough and I'm fine with drastic measure to be heard, I just can't support rioting, destruction of private property, and arson as the way to do it. I found myself driving through Philadelphia twice yesterday.. and it was horrible. Not only could you see the damage that had been done on the streets, but people just looked off. The collective mood was sad, frustrated, angry, and for the moment, hopeless. I agree with your and GH's point that we can't just keep trying the same old shit that doesn't work anymore, but I just can't believe that rioting and mayhem are the best answer. I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think this is it. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
On June 01 2020 23:16 Zambrah wrote: Do we collectively agree that passive and peaceful action has been tried and has been shown to be ineffective? Whether or not mayhem is ideal, has peaceful non-violent protesting and voting done any good? Rosa Parks would certainly like a word with you | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
This has happened too many times for this time to be different. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15742 Posts
On June 01 2020 23:16 Zambrah wrote: Do we collectively agree that passive and peaceful action has been tried and has been shown to be ineffective? Whether or not mayhem is ideal, has peaceful non-violent protesting and voting done any good? I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9036 Posts
On June 01 2020 23:16 Zambrah wrote: Do we collectively agree that passive and peaceful action has been tried and has been shown to be ineffective? Whether or not mayhem is ideal, has peaceful non-violent protesting and voting done any good? Since when? It worked to some degree in the 60s and 70s. Most recently it hasn't done a damn thing to help quell the frustration being felt by minorities. A number of factors can be looked at, but I think the biggest prevailing one is that the internet and the proliferation of information has allowed the pathetic state of the system to be put on full display for all to see. Now it's just a matter of who stays silent and complicit and who takes an appreciable effort to make things right and work for all involved. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote: I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23671 Posts
On June 01 2020 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote: I couldn't agree more. + Show Spoiler + What people don't realize is that riots sometimes ends up being the only way to be heard. Police officers not being held accountable for horrific acts of violence and murders against black folks have been going on for decades and no one seems to really talk about them. It's sad that it takes a riot before it makes the news, but instead of blaming rioters, we should ask yourself why we don't care until people start burning shit. I don't know much about the justice system in the US, but isn't the lack of accountability of police officers related to the fact that the judges are nothing without police cooperation? What I understood is that the police can basically make the job if judges or prosecutors if they get pissed of at them. That seems actually quite hard to fix; you need either a parallel justice system or changing the role of the police drastically in the judicial process. Then again, I don't know the details. I didn't land on police abolition (revolutionary politics, or socialism/communism either for that matter) because I read a viral tweet, want to be an edgelord teen, haven't thought about this stuff seriously or any of the other derogatory and dismissive attacks I've endured here or much worse elsewhere. A lifelong experience as a Black person in the US, researching the experiences of those that came before me, having my own run-ins with the criminal justice system, listening to the smartest most experienced community leaders and academics from past and present I can find, as well as more than a decade trying to work within the Democratic party including being a local delegate for Obama in 08 and arguing with old white ladies about why he was better than Hillary at caucuses and a whole lot of other directly relevant research and experience is how I got here. I don't mind disagreeing with people (happens in my own political circles frequently enough), what is incredible to endure are those who deign to paternally set the timetable of my liberation to their convenience without so much as a fraction of the effort to change it from something they hope I have one day to something we all share as promised more than a century ago. In this brief moment of egregious and incontrovertible horror a portion of people have seen the absurdity in this. But too soon, or as soon as we look beyond this particular systemic horror of police brutality the old lines of self-interest and preservation of the status quo demolish the bonds of class and racial solidarity built in these moments and the systemic issues underlying the greater socioeconomic suffering and exploitation go back to being beyond the realm of pragmatic plausibility until the next uprising. I'm tired of this.We're all tired. People are going to burn it all down and start from scratch if all people have is "wait, what about another way I have no insight on? You can't deny riots have negative consequences". It's an asinine point to raise at this point. | ||
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