|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On June 02 2020 00:56 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 00:48 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:40 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 02 2020 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:24 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:11 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated? Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act. Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s. Montgomery county, December 1, 1955. Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat. This leads black community leaders to form the Montgomery improvement Association, which stages a boycott of the bus system. On November 14th 1956, the supreme court rules that segregated seating is unconstitutional. Burning your community to the ground is not the only way to do this Let me clarify: Are you saying protests similar to Rosa Parks hasn't been tried recently? To your knowledge, which forms of non-violent protest have been absent in the last 5 years? That didn't end the way he thinks it did either. Parks was chased out of Montgomery and white backlash cost many people their lives. Of course people also remember (obviously not) the Freedom Riders getting their asses whooped repeatedly because of the lack of enforcement of that aforementioned SC decision. I don't know why people say these obviously ahistorical things like they're dropping knowledge. The reason that I and others say things like that is because we have a point to argue. Is that so hard to understand? Also I thought you excused yourself from the conversation earlier, nice to have you back. I wish you hadn't reappeared with a condescending and patronizing statement about what I think, but nice to have you back anyway As Farv mentioned, I know why, it was rhetorical. Anyone with knowledge of the context of your point should find that offensive was the argument I was making earlier. You're essentially saying "boycott" (not even economically viable), "then if you manage to win some SC case in the conservative court eventually, don't expect it to be enforced. That'll take a few more years of being beaten and killed without accountability. Maybe it is sincerely just ignorance and that's not what you mean to say because you really thought your Rosa Parks point was valid. For which I'd generally blame the whitewashed history we teach in this country. But you know better imo. Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 00:51 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:24 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:11 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:16 Zambrah wrote:
Do we collectively agree that passive and peaceful action has been tried and has been shown to be ineffective? Whether or not mayhem is ideal, has peaceful non-violent protesting and voting done any good? I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated? Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act. Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s. Montgomery county, December 1, 1955. Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat. This leads black community leaders to form the Montgomery improvement Association, which stages a boycott of the bus system. On November 14th 1956, the supreme court rules that segregated seating is unconstitutional. Burning your community to the ground is not the only way to do this Let me clarify: Are you saying protests similar to Rosa Parks hasn't been tried recently? To your knowledge, which forms of non-violent protest have been absent in the last 5 years? I'm sure they have Yeah, see, you know what you're doing.
Its just impossible to have a debate with you when you interact with people like this. I'm trying to have a discussion in good faith and at the moment I'm boiling mad that you can be so dismissive, condescending, and rude.
I guess maybe I'll circle back later and try to respond calmly
|
On June 01 2020 23:35 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2020 23:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 01 2020 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 01 2020 21:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 01 2020 20:52 Simberto wrote:
I don't think a lot of people here are saying that rioting is really nice and cool (except maybe GH).
My point at least was "Why are we always only talking about rioting, and not about the utterly unjust justice system?". I think that rioting sucks, but is understandable, and that we should focus on the main topic at hand, namely that US police kill way too many people, and are not held responsible for that nearly enough. The US isn't even collecting data on how many people the police kill. That in itself is utterly and completely absurd. Every case where police kills someone should lead to a major investigation by an independent agency by default.
The main focus here should be on reforming the US police. Demilitarization, accountability, a new focus on "serve and protect (the citizens)", not "serve and protect yourself" Despite what people may believe I too believe uprisings suck. People suffer, wealth is lost, we destroy our lands, etc. They are a measure of last resort. There's a confluence of factors leading to what we're seeing now. If it were just systemic racist violence by police spurring these actions, they wouldn't be a fraction as massive/radical. That they refuse to even do something as basic as arrest the accomplices in this murder while others call for a more detailed treatise of requests before progress can be made (congress just goes on vacation) is emblematic of just how badly people from all walks are failing to grasp the size and significance of this moment imo. Having a competent government capable of meeting the needs of it's people (and adjust in a reasonable amount of time) is much more preferable than having to take to the streets risking life and limb just to get what the constitution already promises us. It's part of what is so infuriatingly insulting when people ignorantly propose that others pursue an unspecified or demonstratively ineffective strategy instead. I couldn't agree more. + Show Spoiler +What people don't realize is that riots sometimes ends up being the only way to be heard. Police officers not being held accountable for horrific acts of violence and murders against black folks have been going on for decades and no one seems to really talk about them. It's sad that it takes a riot before it makes the news, but instead of blaming rioters, we should ask yourself why we don't care until people start burning shit. I don't know much about the justice system in the US, but isn't the lack of accountability of police officers related to the fact that the judges are nothing without police cooperation? What I understood is that the police can basically make the job if judges or prosecutors if they get pissed of at them. That seems actually quite hard to fix; you need either a parallel justice system or changing the role of the police drastically in the judicial process.Then again, I don't know the details. I didn't land on police abolition (revolutionary politics, or socialism/communism either for that matter) because I read a viral tweet, want to be an edgelord teen, haven't thought about this stuff seriously or any of the other derogatory and dismissive attacks I've endured here or much worse elsewhere. A lifelong experience as a Black person in the US, researching the experiences of those that came before me, having my own run-ins with the criminal justice system, listening to the smartest most experienced community leaders and academics from past and present I can find, as well as more than a decade trying to work within the Democratic party including being a local delegate for Obama in 08 and arguing with old white ladies about why he was better than Hillary at caucuses and a whole lot of other directly relevant research and experience is how I got here. I don't mind disagreeing with people (happens in my own political circles frequently enough), what is incredible to endure are those who deign to paternally set the timetable of my liberation to their convenience without so much as a fraction of the effort to change it from something they hope I have one day to something we all share as promised more than a century ago. In this brief moment of egregious and incontrovertible horror a portion of people have seen the absurdity in this. But too soon, or as soon as we look beyond this particular systemic horror of police brutality the old lines of self-interest and preservation of the status quo demolish the bonds of class and racial solidarity built in these moments and the systemic issues underlying the greater socioeconomic suffering and exploitation go back to being beyond the realm of pragmatic plausibility until the next uprising. I'm tired of this.We're all tired. People are going to burn it all down and start from scratch if all people have is "wait, what about another way I have no insight on? You can't deny riots have negative consequences". It's an asinine point to raise at this point. When you burn it down, you're not just taking down the bad apples. You're taking the entirety of the community down with you. Is that something we should be okay with?
That's only good-faith if I grant far more ignorance than you're willing to accept. Surely you didn't sincerely think after reading the post you were responding to that such elementary analysis and pejorative questioning could be taken in good-faith.
|
On June 02 2020 00:57 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 00:51 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:24 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:11 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:16 Zambrah wrote:
Do we collectively agree that passive and peaceful action has been tried and has been shown to be ineffective? Whether or not mayhem is ideal, has peaceful non-violent protesting and voting done any good? I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated? Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act. Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s. Montgomery county, December 1, 1955. Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat. This leads black community leaders to form the Montgomery improvement Association, which stages a boycott of the bus system. On November 14th 1956, the supreme court rules that segregated seating is unconstitutional. Burning your community to the ground is not the only way to do this Let me clarify: Are you saying protests similar to Rosa Parks hasn't been tried recently? To your knowledge, which forms of non-violent protest have been absent in the last 5 years? I'm sure they have So if we can say those things have been done already, and people are ***dying***, what incentive would you say activists have to pursue those avenues again? Keep in mind the issue here is police killing Black People. Its not a monument getting taken down, or asking a sports team to change their name, we are talking about people being alive one day, and then dead the next day, because a cop decided to kill them. To me, that is a really, really, really big issue that warrants stopping other stuff to prioritize. I understand that if you are thinking peaceful protests were more effective than violent in the past, it totally makes sense to advocate for peaceful protests. But it is important to recognize that violence is often a crucial part in fight oppressors. People have already described this dynamic above, so I hope you can consider that this may truly be the final option. This has been an issue for a long time, right? This is the first big riot in a very long time, right? So then we would say people have been doing a variety of other things until now. That is why a lot of people are angry: the frustration with the fact that peaceful protests don't work.
I guess I can admit that the violent protests in the past are certainly eye opening, and can't be ignored. So from an effective standpoint, in the broader context of history, they've played a part.
It just frustrates me terribly that innocent people have to get caught up in it. Like how can I look at a business owner in the eye and say "Sorry man, we tried everything else but the only way forward is for us to smash in your windows and loot all your inventory"
Our generation has unprecedented abilities to communicate and organize that haven't existed in the broader context of history. What if we organized a series of kneeldowns at our local police stations, and invite the police officers to join? Some of the rare heartwarming scenes I've seen recently have been events like this. Would days of that send a message that couldn't be ignored to the powers that be? I'm not certain either way, history has conflicting results. But I would certainly like to try that before trashing the community as a supposed "last resort"
|
On June 02 2020 01:01 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 00:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 02 2020 00:48 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:40 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 02 2020 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:24 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:11 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:
[quote]
Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck.
Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer.
I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated? Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act. Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s. Montgomery county, December 1, 1955. Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat. This leads black community leaders to form the Montgomery improvement Association, which stages a boycott of the bus system. On November 14th 1956, the supreme court rules that segregated seating is unconstitutional. Burning your community to the ground is not the only way to do this Let me clarify: Are you saying protests similar to Rosa Parks hasn't been tried recently? To your knowledge, which forms of non-violent protest have been absent in the last 5 years? That didn't end the way he thinks it did either. Parks was chased out of Montgomery and white backlash cost many people their lives. Of course people also remember (obviously not) the Freedom Riders getting their asses whooped repeatedly because of the lack of enforcement of that aforementioned SC decision. I don't know why people say these obviously ahistorical things like they're dropping knowledge. The reason that I and others say things like that is because we have a point to argue. Is that so hard to understand? Also I thought you excused yourself from the conversation earlier, nice to have you back. I wish you hadn't reappeared with a condescending and patronizing statement about what I think, but nice to have you back anyway As Farv mentioned, I know why, it was rhetorical. Anyone with knowledge of the context of your point should find that offensive was the argument I was making earlier. You're essentially saying "boycott" (not even economically viable), "then if you manage to win some SC case in the conservative court eventually, don't expect it to be enforced. That'll take a few more years of being beaten and killed without accountability. Maybe it is sincerely just ignorance and that's not what you mean to say because you really thought your Rosa Parks point was valid. For which I'd generally blame the whitewashed history we teach in this country. But you know better imo. On June 02 2020 00:51 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:24 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:11 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated? Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act. Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s. Montgomery county, December 1, 1955. Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat. This leads black community leaders to form the Montgomery improvement Association, which stages a boycott of the bus system. On November 14th 1956, the supreme court rules that segregated seating is unconstitutional. Burning your community to the ground is not the only way to do this Let me clarify: Are you saying protests similar to Rosa Parks hasn't been tried recently? To your knowledge, which forms of non-violent protest have been absent in the last 5 years? I'm sure they have Yeah, see, you know what you're doing. Its just impossible to have a debate with you when you interact with people like this. I'm trying to have a discussion in good faith and at the moment I'm boiling mad that you can be so dismissive, condescending, and rude. I guess maybe I'll circle back later and try to respond calmly
Just an observation from a lurker: Maybe you are able to relate more than you realize with people of other communities who have tried to engage in good-faith discussion and been dismissed, ignored or talked down to.
|
On June 02 2020 01:21 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 00:57 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:51 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:24 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:11 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated? Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act. Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s. Montgomery county, December 1, 1955. Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat. This leads black community leaders to form the Montgomery improvement Association, which stages a boycott of the bus system. On November 14th 1956, the supreme court rules that segregated seating is unconstitutional. Burning your community to the ground is not the only way to do this Let me clarify: Are you saying protests similar to Rosa Parks hasn't been tried recently? To your knowledge, which forms of non-violent protest have been absent in the last 5 years? I'm sure they have So if we can say those things have been done already, and people are ***dying***, what incentive would you say activists have to pursue those avenues again? Keep in mind the issue here is police killing Black People. Its not a monument getting taken down, or asking a sports team to change their name, we are talking about people being alive one day, and then dead the next day, because a cop decided to kill them. To me, that is a really, really, really big issue that warrants stopping other stuff to prioritize. I understand that if you are thinking peaceful protests were more effective than violent in the past, it totally makes sense to advocate for peaceful protests. But it is important to recognize that violence is often a crucial part in fight oppressors. People have already described this dynamic above, so I hope you can consider that this may truly be the final option. This has been an issue for a long time, right? This is the first big riot in a very long time, right? So then we would say people have been doing a variety of other things until now. That is why a lot of people are angry: the frustration with the fact that peaceful protests don't work. I guess I can admit that the violent protests in the past are certainly eye opening, and can't be ignored. So from an effective standpoint, in the broader context of history, they've played a part. It just frustrates me terribly that innocent people have to get caught up in it. Like how can I look at a business owner in the eye and say "Sorry man, we tried everything else but the only way forward is for us to smash in your windows and loot all your inventory" Our generation has unprecedented abilities to communicate and organize that haven't existed in the broader context of history. What if we organized a series of kneeldowns at our local police stations, and invite the police officers to join? Some of the rare heartwarming scenes I've seen recently have been events like this. Would days of that send a message that couldn't be ignored to the powers that be? I'm not certain either way, history has conflicting results. But I would certainly like to try that before trashing the community as a supposed "last resort"
I'm sorry, that sounds sincere.
The answer is no, we tried that several times. Die ins, kneeling, all that stuff already happened 6 ways from sunday is what everyone is telling you (this uprising is quite literally that manifested) and you should tell the shop owner. Though I advise against looking them in the eye unless you're adequately protecting your identity 
|
On June 02 2020 01:21 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 00:57 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:51 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:24 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:11 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated? Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act. Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s. Montgomery county, December 1, 1955. Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat. This leads black community leaders to form the Montgomery improvement Association, which stages a boycott of the bus system. On November 14th 1956, the supreme court rules that segregated seating is unconstitutional. Burning your community to the ground is not the only way to do this Let me clarify: Are you saying protests similar to Rosa Parks hasn't been tried recently? To your knowledge, which forms of non-violent protest have been absent in the last 5 years? I'm sure they have So if we can say those things have been done already, and people are ***dying***, what incentive would you say activists have to pursue those avenues again? Keep in mind the issue here is police killing Black People. Its not a monument getting taken down, or asking a sports team to change their name, we are talking about people being alive one day, and then dead the next day, because a cop decided to kill them. To me, that is a really, really, really big issue that warrants stopping other stuff to prioritize. I understand that if you are thinking peaceful protests were more effective than violent in the past, it totally makes sense to advocate for peaceful protests. But it is important to recognize that violence is often a crucial part in fight oppressors. People have already described this dynamic above, so I hope you can consider that this may truly be the final option. This has been an issue for a long time, right? This is the first big riot in a very long time, right? So then we would say people have been doing a variety of other things until now. That is why a lot of people are angry: the frustration with the fact that peaceful protests don't work. I guess I can admit that the violent protests in the past are certainly eye opening, and can't be ignored. So from an effective standpoint, in the broader context of history, they've played a part. It just frustrates me terribly that innocent people have to get caught up in it. Like how can I look at a business owner in the eye and say "Sorry man, we tried everything else but the only way forward is for us to smash in your windows and loot all your inventory" Our generation has unprecedented abilities to communicate and organize that haven't existed in the broader context of history. What if we organized a series of kneeldowns at our local police stations, and invite the police officers to join? Some of the rare heartwarming scenes I've seen recently have been events like this. Would days of that send a message that couldn't be ignored to the powers that be? I'm not certain either way, history has conflicting results. But I would certainly like to try that before trashing the community as a supposed "last resort"
It is very frustrating and sad to me as well. But it is important to recognize that the only thing required for these riots not to happen is for cops to accountable. If cops were arrested for abuses of power, there would be no issue. Bad people would rarely do bad things and the culture of police would drastically change as they are thrown in prison every time.
I have a hard time "blaming" the rioters when so many other things were tried, such as the kneeldowns you described, without a good outcome. So long as the current police culture remains intact, Black People have the right to fight for their lives.
While it may seem crazy for me to support the riots, it is important to keep in mind that I do so because I am convinced Black People have 0 other options left. They are fighting for their lives. If I was fighting for my life, I would get desperate too. Kneeldowns with police, tons of stuff has been tried. And yet we still get video evidence that 3 guys watched their co-worker kill a dude while being recorded. That was a very clear indicator that the job is simply not getting done and the methods needed to be escalated. I don't want Portland to get burned down, but so long as I believe Black People are fighting for their lives (I do), and I am convinced they have tried literally every other thing many times for many years, there is no other conclusion. They deserve to live. They aren't being given that right, despite everything they have tried. I'm out of ideas so I don't feel like I can tell them to stop when all that really means is them agreeing to die more.
|
Keith Ellison, MN Attorney General has said they're "seriously considering" charging the other three officers.
He said it on the Joe Madison (who?) show :
https://www.siriusxm.com/clips/clip/0469a9b1-fd7d-4257-ab28-f76acc8fa2aa/285b20a4-21ca-474f-8754-e98b147217f4
Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison to Joe Madison: "I don't deny that your eyes are working well and you saw what you saw. But that doesn't mean that when we get to a courtroom that it's going to be some sort of easy slam dunk. History proves that it isn't. So what I'd say is we're going to be fair, we're going to investigate the case carefully, we're going to prepare carefully...but I hope that I can maintain the trust because people know that I am serious about justice and will pursue it. But I'm going to be fair to all parties concerned."
I'm not sure why there's a delay. Yes, qualified immunity is an issue here - but you can charge them with the smallest crime possible to just get them off the streets and calm things down, then escalate the charges to what is correct and has a chance of sticking.
|
Hearing some conspiracy stuff about what went down last night in DC. A full minute of social media silence and immediate clearing of protesters. If i hear anything that seems plausible I'll post it here. If anyone else has anything, let me know.
|
On June 02 2020 01:59 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Hearing some conspiracy stuff about what went down last night in DC. A full minute of social media silence and immediate clearing of protesters. If i hear anything that seems plausible I'll post it here. If anyone else has anything, let me know.
What exactly are the theories? Where can I read about this situation?
|
On June 02 2020 01:21 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 00:57 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:51 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:24 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:11 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:20 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I agree. Until someone can explain what people haven't tried yet to achieve equality for minorities, telling people "but riots are damaging!!" is really annoying. Every single other thing has been done. People whining about the riots need to point to some alternative which hasn't been done yet. Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck. Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer. I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated? Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act. Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s. Montgomery county, December 1, 1955. Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat. This leads black community leaders to form the Montgomery improvement Association, which stages a boycott of the bus system. On November 14th 1956, the supreme court rules that segregated seating is unconstitutional. Burning your community to the ground is not the only way to do this Let me clarify: Are you saying protests similar to Rosa Parks hasn't been tried recently? To your knowledge, which forms of non-violent protest have been absent in the last 5 years? I'm sure they have So if we can say those things have been done already, and people are ***dying***, what incentive would you say activists have to pursue those avenues again? Keep in mind the issue here is police killing Black People. Its not a monument getting taken down, or asking a sports team to change their name, we are talking about people being alive one day, and then dead the next day, because a cop decided to kill them. To me, that is a really, really, really big issue that warrants stopping other stuff to prioritize. I understand that if you are thinking peaceful protests were more effective than violent in the past, it totally makes sense to advocate for peaceful protests. But it is important to recognize that violence is often a crucial part in fight oppressors. People have already described this dynamic above, so I hope you can consider that this may truly be the final option. This has been an issue for a long time, right? This is the first big riot in a very long time, right? So then we would say people have been doing a variety of other things until now. That is why a lot of people are angry: the frustration with the fact that peaceful protests don't work. I guess I can admit that the violent protests in the past are certainly eye opening, and can't be ignored. So from an effective standpoint, in the broader context of history, they've played a part. It just frustrates me terribly that innocent people have to get caught up in it. Like how can I look at a business owner in the eye and say "Sorry man, we tried everything else but the only way forward is for us to smash in your windows and loot all your inventory" Our generation has unprecedented abilities to communicate and organize that haven't existed in the broader context of history. What if we organized a series of kneeldowns at our local police stations, and invite the police officers to join? Some of the rare heartwarming scenes I've seen recently have been events like this. Would days of that send a message that couldn't be ignored to the powers that be? I'm not certain either way, history has conflicting results. But I would certainly like to try that before trashing the community as a supposed "last resort"
It's fair to be frustrated because having to be in a position where you're backed into a corner enough that rioting feels like the only answer is an extremely frustrating situation. I can't fault frustration, I just caution against pinning your frustration on the protestors and rioters, they wouldn't feel like they have to do this if they weren't victim to or witness to incredible police brutality. The police and our criminal justice system are who our frustration should be directed at.
|
On June 02 2020 02:01 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 01:59 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Hearing some conspiracy stuff about what went down last night in DC. A full minute of social media silence and immediate clearing of protesters. If i hear anything that seems plausible I'll post it here. If anyone else has anything, let me know. What exactly are the theories? Where can I read about this situation?
Here is a tweet that I was sent. You can follow the train to read more.
+ Show Spoiler +https://twitter.com/thetaylight/status/1267467205886836737
Edit: Put in spoiler tag just to be a bit cautious. The more I read and the more I look for info, I'm not sure.
|
There were reports that Trump was taken to a bunker 2 days ago (when he made his posts about the secret service using dogs or whatever on protestors). So the whole administration is probably a bit on edge.
|
On June 02 2020 02:07 Nevuk wrote:
There were reports that Trump was taken to a bunker 2 days ago (when he made his posts about the secret service using dogs or whatever on protestors). So the whole administration is probably a bit on edge.
Meanwhile Biden outside brofisting people.
If Trump had any shred of shame he would have resigned many months ago, so he's going to cling to his chair until the bitter end.
He's on some vendetta against Americans because he's been derided so much.
|
On June 02 2020 02:03 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 01:21 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:57 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:51 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:24 Aveng3r wrote:On June 02 2020 00:11 Mohdoo wrote:On June 02 2020 00:06 Aveng3r wrote:On June 01 2020 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On June 01 2020 23:27 Aveng3r wrote:
[quote]
Riots ARE damaging. Have you ever seen one? I just drove through one yesterday, twice. They fucking suck.
Every single other thing has not been done. Our generation has unprecedented access to connections with each other, opportunities to organize, and communicate. Again, I don't have the answer sitting in front of me, but resorting to mob behavior and taking your frustration out on innocent people is not the answer.
I can't believe how many people seem to be defending this shit. How would you feel if someone bashed in the windows of your business? Everything you are describing, which has been done, still led to Floyd dying. The current situation for Black People in America is untenable. It isn't reasonable to tell Black People to just be patient when they are being killed. Society is all about forming social contracts. We are not honoring our contract with Black People. What incentive would Floyd have had to behave himself if he knew he was going to be choked to death on camera the next day? I'm not asking anyone to be patient, I'm at the end of my patience for this crap too. Seeing that image of George Floyd's last moments was chilling, it was unacceptable, and it should never ever ever happen again. The sense I'm getting this morning seems to be largely "we've tried everything else, mayhem and rioting is the only way" and I'd like to offer exactly why I disagree with that. Those who have protested peacefully, again and again and again, are saying "We are not okay with this. Humans should treat each other with respect and compassion, and what we saw with George Floyd, Eric Garner, and countless others was violence and hate". Its even more horrifying that these acts of violence are coming from our police offers, who's duty in the contract is to protect and serve, not attack and instigate. So I get it. I get that people have had enough. I get that the contract has been breached over and over and over and its time to write a new one. That message is lost when peaceful protests devolve into violence, looting, riots, and mayhem. The headlines I see this morning all read: "violence continues and national guard called in" or "police continue to clash with protestors" or "countless local business's face irreparable damage" or "families already hanging on by a thread now have nowhere to turn". How has this made anything better? Where on this path does the grass get greener? Have we just thrown in the towel and given up? Time to burn everything to the ground? I don't think this is the way to go. A common response I'm seeing is "what else is there to try?" I'll offer a few ideas: -There needs to be a comprehensive review of the service record of every single police officer in America, and if there is a single instance where an officer has demonstrated anything short of exemplary service to his community, they're out. This is a profession that cannot have bad apples, and they need to be identified and removed immediately. -Police Officers need to be held accountable for their actions immediately and without preferential bias. How did it take that Minneapolis precinct so long to press charges on a murderer? This can't be acceptable. -We're going to start teach people from a young age that racism has been a problem in this country for years, its not acceptable, and that people are to be treated with compassion and empathy. This isn't a perfect plan and it won't solve everything, but can we agree that maybe its a start, and that we can still maintain faith in each other enough to not resort to smashing in the window of a business owner because you're angry and frustrated? Violent protest has a great track record for progress. The civil Rights act was passed after 6 days of rioting. I understand that it feels counterproductive but the history speaks for itself. It worked before the 60s. It worked during the 60s and it can work again. Lots of bad labels in the 60s and yet we got the civil Rights act. Also everything you describe has been tried. Police unions shut it down. They resist what you are describing. Oppressors don't give up power. It can.only be taken, as evidenced by the 60s. Montgomery county, December 1, 1955. Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat. This leads black community leaders to form the Montgomery improvement Association, which stages a boycott of the bus system. On November 14th 1956, the supreme court rules that segregated seating is unconstitutional. Burning your community to the ground is not the only way to do this Let me clarify: Are you saying protests similar to Rosa Parks hasn't been tried recently? To your knowledge, which forms of non-violent protest have been absent in the last 5 years? I'm sure they have So if we can say those things have been done already, and people are ***dying***, what incentive would you say activists have to pursue those avenues again? Keep in mind the issue here is police killing Black People. Its not a monument getting taken down, or asking a sports team to change their name, we are talking about people being alive one day, and then dead the next day, because a cop decided to kill them. To me, that is a really, really, really big issue that warrants stopping other stuff to prioritize. I understand that if you are thinking peaceful protests were more effective than violent in the past, it totally makes sense to advocate for peaceful protests. But it is important to recognize that violence is often a crucial part in fight oppressors. People have already described this dynamic above, so I hope you can consider that this may truly be the final option. This has been an issue for a long time, right? This is the first big riot in a very long time, right? So then we would say people have been doing a variety of other things until now. That is why a lot of people are angry: the frustration with the fact that peaceful protests don't work. I guess I can admit that the violent protests in the past are certainly eye opening, and can't be ignored. So from an effective standpoint, in the broader context of history, they've played a part. It just frustrates me terribly that innocent people have to get caught up in it. Like how can I look at a business owner in the eye and say "Sorry man, we tried everything else but the only way forward is for us to smash in your windows and loot all your inventory" Our generation has unprecedented abilities to communicate and organize that haven't existed in the broader context of history. What if we organized a series of kneeldowns at our local police stations, and invite the police officers to join? Some of the rare heartwarming scenes I've seen recently have been events like this. Would days of that send a message that couldn't be ignored to the powers that be? I'm not certain either way, history has conflicting results. But I would certainly like to try that before trashing the community as a supposed "last resort" It's fair to be frustrated because having to be in a position where you're backed into a corner enough that rioting feels like the only answer is an extremely frustrating situation. I can't fault frustration, I just caution against pinning your frustration on the protestors and rioters, they wouldn't feel like they have to do this if they weren't victim to or witness to incredible police brutality. The police and our criminal justice system are who our frustration should be directed at.
This is pretty much exactly how I feel. Ultimately, these riots are happening because the police murdered a man. Whether they're instigated by white supremacists, backed by the ultrarich liberal elite, or controlled by aliens and reptilians, the reason they are happening is because a police officer felt fine murdering a man in front of two fellow officers. Losing sight of that is, to me, missing the point.
|
This is a US Senator literally advocating using the military to summarily execute political dissidents "if necessary" whatever that means.
And the AG released a statement that the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Forces (JTTF). will be used to label people as terrorists and treat them accordingly.
Federal law enforcement actions will be directed at apprehending and charging the violent radical agitators who have hijacked peaceful protest and are engaged in violations of federal law.
To identify criminal organizers and instigators, and to coordinate federal resources with our state and local partners, federal law enforcement is using our existing network of 56 regional FBI Joint Terrorism Task Forces (JTTF).
The violence instigated and carried out by Antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly.”
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-william-p-barrs-statement-riots-and-domestic-terrorism
Also a lot of relief at the state/federal level is phasing out and rent was due. So things seem to be stabilizing /s
|
Yeah it's always Cotton who loves the confrontative, violent approaches. Remember him for his initiatives on China. He loves it in Trumps backside.
That guy is a textbook psychopath. Like all good psychopaths he is able to coat his antisocial messages in acceptable words.
|
On June 02 2020 03:15 GreenHorizons wrote:This is a US Senator literally advocating using the military to summarily execute political dissidents "if necessary" whatever that means. https://twitter.com/TomCottonAR/status/1267459561675468800And the AG released a statement that the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Forces (JTTF). will be used to label people as terrorists and treat them accordingly. Show nested quote +Federal law enforcement actions will be directed at apprehending and charging the violent radical agitators who have hijacked peaceful protest and are engaged in violations of federal law.
To identify criminal organizers and instigators, and to coordinate federal resources with our state and local partners, federal law enforcement is using our existing network of 56 regional FBI Joint Terrorism Task Forces (JTTF).
The violence instigated and carried out by Antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly.” https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-william-p-barrs-statement-riots-and-domestic-terrorismAlso a lot of relief at the state and federal level is phasing out and rent was due. So things seem to be stabilizing /s
Two things that stood out to me: first, Cotton name-checking specific units to score points. It’s not that those specific units are the ones he think should be deployed - he’s just trying to sound like a hard-ass by showing off he knows specific names, while hoping people associated with those units will like the shout-out (picture a rockstar screaming “hello Toronto!” on stage).
Second, “treated accordingly” is awfully euphemistic. Does that reference some USA PATRIAT act-type removal of civil rights? Does it just mean “we’ll prosecute them for any crimes they commit?” What exactly is being glosses over with those two words?
|
|
|
On June 02 2020 03:27 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 03:15 GreenHorizons wrote:This is a US Senator literally advocating using the military to summarily execute political dissidents "if necessary" whatever that means. https://twitter.com/TomCottonAR/status/1267459561675468800And the AG released a statement that the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Forces (JTTF). will be used to label people as terrorists and treat them accordingly. Federal law enforcement actions will be directed at apprehending and charging the violent radical agitators who have hijacked peaceful protest and are engaged in violations of federal law.
To identify criminal organizers and instigators, and to coordinate federal resources with our state and local partners, federal law enforcement is using our existing network of 56 regional FBI Joint Terrorism Task Forces (JTTF).
The violence instigated and carried out by Antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly.” https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-william-p-barrs-statement-riots-and-domestic-terrorismAlso a lot of relief at the state and federal level is phasing out and rent was due. So things seem to be stabilizing /s Two things that stood out to me: first, Cotton name-checking specific units to score points. It’s not that those specific units are the ones he think should be deployed - he’s just trying to sound like a hard-ass by showing off he knows specific names, while hoping people associated with those units will like the shout-out (picture a rockstar screaming “hello Toronto!” on stage). Second, “treated accordingly” is awfully euphemistic. Does that reference some USA PATRIAT act-type removal of civil rights? Does it just mean “we’ll prosecute them for any crimes they commit?” What exactly is being glosses over with those two words? what is being glossed over? Whatever the read wants. prosecute the, throw em in jail, beat them up, kill them.
That is the wonder of ambiguous terms, you can let the reader fill in whatever you want while you keep complete deniability yourself.
|
They have the perfect excuse now though, they are on a presidentially sanctioned terrorist hunt, and the pressure from the top is to be as vicious about as possible.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
