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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On April 15 2020 20:21 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2020 17:56 Slydie wrote:
Dropping WHO support is an obvious spin move, Trump doing as always: everything in his power to escape responsibility and shift the blame away from himself.
But the numbers don't lie: Currently the US has 26000 covid-19 deaths to China's 3300 (and a much higher population.)
I will be extremely disappointed if American voters don't see through this bullshit. I would be careful about saying "numbers don't lie" when quoting statistics released from China.. Show nested quote +On April 15 2020 20:04 Neneu wrote:
I think if Trump wins his second term, it will be the final confirmation for allies that USA is an unreliable and destabilizing partner. That note has been well and thoroughly marked by now anyways. Even if Trump doesn't win a second term, US is never more than 4 years away from possibly fucking over all their allies on a whim from a madman. US has well and truly established themselves as completely untrustworthy.
Yeah, if that gets ever fixed, it will take decades. Everyone thought the neocons and W Bush were just one weird anomaly, and that the US would be the reliable partner for the West they always were. It's quite clear to me that 2016 was the end of that illusion, and of american global leadership. Bush was a blundering, messianic, dangerous idiot, but trying to figure out what he was doing was a walk in the park compared to this clusterfuck.
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On April 15 2020 20:29 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2020 20:04 Neneu wrote:
I think if Trump wins his second term, it will be the final confirmation for allies that USA is an unreliable and destabilizing partner. And probably a good sign for progressives to try to leave the country and move to somewhere sensible. I think i am slowly arriving at the conclusion that the US simply cannot and does not want to be saved from their shitty systems. As such, on an individual level, the best choice is to try to get out to a country which is more sensible. The healthcare system alone is reason enough to leave. The fact that the votes of almost everyone are simply irrelevant, and those who can vote have to decide which the lesser of the two evils is does not bode well for any change in a positive direction either. The US seems to become worse and worse over time.
I think the most viable option would be for Progressives to push for a two-round presidential election. That would give them a chance to actually build momentum over a few election cycles, with a real shot at having their candidate in the second round.
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On April 15 2020 20:48 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2020 20:29 Simberto wrote:On April 15 2020 20:04 Neneu wrote:
I think if Trump wins his second term, it will be the final confirmation for allies that USA is an unreliable and destabilizing partner. And probably a good sign for progressives to try to leave the country and move to somewhere sensible. I think i am slowly arriving at the conclusion that the US simply cannot and does not want to be saved from their shitty systems. As such, on an individual level, the best choice is to try to get out to a country which is more sensible. The healthcare system alone is reason enough to leave. The fact that the votes of almost everyone are simply irrelevant, and those who can vote have to decide which the lesser of the two evils is does not bode well for any change in a positive direction either. The US seems to become worse and worse over time. I think the most viable option would be for Progressives to push for a two-round presidential election. That would give them a chance to actually build momentum over a few election cycles, with a real shot at having their candidate in the second round.
What candidate is going to vote away their own safety though?
Between gerrymandering, electoral college, electronic voting w/o paper trail, no holiday for voting, no voting rights for felons, voter id laws, voter registration restrictions, polling place closures, mail in restrictions/overhead, and massive lines our elections don't really function as is and has a massive backlog of issues neither party is inclined to address. I highly doubt something on the scale of a 2-tier election is more achievable than any other policy position.
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On April 15 2020 20:48 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2020 20:29 Simberto wrote:On April 15 2020 20:04 Neneu wrote:
I think if Trump wins his second term, it will be the final confirmation for allies that USA is an unreliable and destabilizing partner. And probably a good sign for progressives to try to leave the country and move to somewhere sensible. I think i am slowly arriving at the conclusion that the US simply cannot and does not want to be saved from their shitty systems. As such, on an individual level, the best choice is to try to get out to a country which is more sensible. The healthcare system alone is reason enough to leave. The fact that the votes of almost everyone are simply irrelevant, and those who can vote have to decide which the lesser of the two evils is does not bode well for any change in a positive direction either. The US seems to become worse and worse over time. I think the most viable option would be for Progressives to push for a two-round presidential election. That would give them a chance to actually build momentum over a few election cycles, with a real shot at having their candidate in the second round. Doesn't the primary already accomplish this?
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On April 15 2020 21:09 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2020 20:48 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 20:29 Simberto wrote:On April 15 2020 20:04 Neneu wrote:
I think if Trump wins his second term, it will be the final confirmation for allies that USA is an unreliable and destabilizing partner. And probably a good sign for progressives to try to leave the country and move to somewhere sensible. I think i am slowly arriving at the conclusion that the US simply cannot and does not want to be saved from their shitty systems. As such, on an individual level, the best choice is to try to get out to a country which is more sensible. The healthcare system alone is reason enough to leave. The fact that the votes of almost everyone are simply irrelevant, and those who can vote have to decide which the lesser of the two evils is does not bode well for any change in a positive direction either. The US seems to become worse and worse over time. I think the most viable option would be for Progressives to push for a two-round presidential election. That would give them a chance to actually build momentum over a few election cycles, with a real shot at having their candidate in the second round. Doesn't the primary already accomplish this?
They wouldn't have to deal with the DNC bullshit. It could also potentially incentivize Progressives who are apathetic about the process and don't vote to actually vote.
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On April 15 2020 21:20 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2020 21:09 Gorsameth wrote:On April 15 2020 20:48 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 20:29 Simberto wrote:On April 15 2020 20:04 Neneu wrote:
I think if Trump wins his second term, it will be the final confirmation for allies that USA is an unreliable and destabilizing partner. And probably a good sign for progressives to try to leave the country and move to somewhere sensible. I think i am slowly arriving at the conclusion that the US simply cannot and does not want to be saved from their shitty systems. As such, on an individual level, the best choice is to try to get out to a country which is more sensible. The healthcare system alone is reason enough to leave. The fact that the votes of almost everyone are simply irrelevant, and those who can vote have to decide which the lesser of the two evils is does not bode well for any change in a positive direction either. The US seems to become worse and worse over time. I think the most viable option would be for Progressives to push for a two-round presidential election. That would give them a chance to actually build momentum over a few election cycles, with a real shot at having their candidate in the second round. Doesn't the primary already accomplish this? They wouldn't have to deal with the DNC bullshit. It could also potentially incentivize Progressives who are apathetic about the process and don't vote to actually vote.
1. How would it avoid DNC bullshit?
2. Progressives can't (well, shouldn't) blame DNC bullshit this time around... they lost to Americans voting for a different candidate.
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On April 15 2020 21:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2020 21:20 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 21:09 Gorsameth wrote:On April 15 2020 20:48 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 20:29 Simberto wrote:On April 15 2020 20:04 Neneu wrote:
I think if Trump wins his second term, it will be the final confirmation for allies that USA is an unreliable and destabilizing partner. And probably a good sign for progressives to try to leave the country and move to somewhere sensible. I think i am slowly arriving at the conclusion that the US simply cannot and does not want to be saved from their shitty systems. As such, on an individual level, the best choice is to try to get out to a country which is more sensible. The healthcare system alone is reason enough to leave. The fact that the votes of almost everyone are simply irrelevant, and those who can vote have to decide which the lesser of the two evils is does not bode well for any change in a positive direction either. The US seems to become worse and worse over time. I think the most viable option would be for Progressives to push for a two-round presidential election. That would give them a chance to actually build momentum over a few election cycles, with a real shot at having their candidate in the second round. Doesn't the primary already accomplish this? They wouldn't have to deal with the DNC bullshit. It could also potentially incentivize Progressives who are apathetic about the process and don't vote to actually vote. 1. How would it avoid DNC bullshit? 2. Progressives can't (well, shouldn't) blame DNC bullshit this time around... they lost to Americans voting for a different candidate.
To clarify, I was talking about the presidential election, not the primaries being a two-round election. Progressives would circumvent the DNC by running their own candidate in the actual election. They could safely vote for him/her without the fear of splitting the vote.
I agree that there are many issues with the US and it does seem beyond repair.
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On April 15 2020 21:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2020 21:20 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 21:09 Gorsameth wrote:On April 15 2020 20:48 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 20:29 Simberto wrote:On April 15 2020 20:04 Neneu wrote:
I think if Trump wins his second term, it will be the final confirmation for allies that USA is an unreliable and destabilizing partner. And probably a good sign for progressives to try to leave the country and move to somewhere sensible. I think i am slowly arriving at the conclusion that the US simply cannot and does not want to be saved from their shitty systems. As such, on an individual level, the best choice is to try to get out to a country which is more sensible. The healthcare system alone is reason enough to leave. The fact that the votes of almost everyone are simply irrelevant, and those who can vote have to decide which the lesser of the two evils is does not bode well for any change in a positive direction either. The US seems to become worse and worse over time. I think the most viable option would be for Progressives to push for a two-round presidential election. That would give them a chance to actually build momentum over a few election cycles, with a real shot at having their candidate in the second round. Doesn't the primary already accomplish this? They wouldn't have to deal with the DNC bullshit. It could also potentially incentivize Progressives who are apathetic about the process and don't vote to actually vote. 2. Progressives can't (well, shouldn't) blame DNC bullshit this time around... they lost to Americans voting for a different candidate.
A Bombardment of Manufactured Consent. Obama/DNC pushing/bribing other candidates out of the race + endorsements for Biden. Voter disenfranchisement/long lines in many states. Iowa. Debate rule adjustments to allow/disallow candidates. Stacking debate audiences. Arguably the entire impeachment proceeding (I'm sure it's just coincidence that the two things they've actually tried to nail Trump for are for going after Hillary and going after Biden and not any of the horrible stuff he has done).
Claiming there was no DNC bullshit is just hilarious and/or malicious.
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On April 15 2020 21:35 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2020 21:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 15 2020 21:20 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 21:09 Gorsameth wrote:On April 15 2020 20:48 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 20:29 Simberto wrote:On April 15 2020 20:04 Neneu wrote:
I think if Trump wins his second term, it will be the final confirmation for allies that USA is an unreliable and destabilizing partner. And probably a good sign for progressives to try to leave the country and move to somewhere sensible. I think i am slowly arriving at the conclusion that the US simply cannot and does not want to be saved from their shitty systems. As such, on an individual level, the best choice is to try to get out to a country which is more sensible. The healthcare system alone is reason enough to leave. The fact that the votes of almost everyone are simply irrelevant, and those who can vote have to decide which the lesser of the two evils is does not bode well for any change in a positive direction either. The US seems to become worse and worse over time. I think the most viable option would be for Progressives to push for a two-round presidential election. That would give them a chance to actually build momentum over a few election cycles, with a real shot at having their candidate in the second round. Doesn't the primary already accomplish this? They wouldn't have to deal with the DNC bullshit. It could also potentially incentivize Progressives who are apathetic about the process and don't vote to actually vote. 1. How would it avoid DNC bullshit? 2. Progressives can't (well, shouldn't) blame DNC bullshit this time around... they lost to Americans voting for a different candidate. To clarify, I was talking about the presidential election, not the primaries being a two-round election. Progressives would circumvent the DNC by running their own candidate in the actual election. They could safely vote for him/her without the fear of splitting the vote. I agree that there are many issues with the US and it does seem beyond repair.
What would round one of the general election look like, and what would round two look like? I'm also wondering how, at some point, it doesn't come down to the Democratic party splitting the vote between the moderate liberal candidate and the progressive candidate.
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On April 15 2020 21:20 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2020 21:09 Gorsameth wrote:On April 15 2020 20:48 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 20:29 Simberto wrote:On April 15 2020 20:04 Neneu wrote:
I think if Trump wins his second term, it will be the final confirmation for allies that USA is an unreliable and destabilizing partner. And probably a good sign for progressives to try to leave the country and move to somewhere sensible. I think i am slowly arriving at the conclusion that the US simply cannot and does not want to be saved from their shitty systems. As such, on an individual level, the best choice is to try to get out to a country which is more sensible. The healthcare system alone is reason enough to leave. The fact that the votes of almost everyone are simply irrelevant, and those who can vote have to decide which the lesser of the two evils is does not bode well for any change in a positive direction either. The US seems to become worse and worse over time. I think the most viable option would be for Progressives to push for a two-round presidential election. That would give them a chance to actually build momentum over a few election cycles, with a real shot at having their candidate in the second round. Doesn't the primary already accomplish this? They wouldn't have to deal with the DNC bullshit. It could also potentially incentivize Progressives who are apathetic about the process and don't vote to actually vote.
The DNC is not great and should be totally reformed, but it has nothing to do with the progressive losing this primaries. They just got the lessons from 2016 and Trump victory wrong imo.
Elections with two rounds have big advantages but also big drawbacks. We saw that in France when Le Pen went to the second round in 2002, beating Lionel Jospin who was probably going to beat Chirac. It just happened there were 5 or 6 left wing parties and he ended up with 18% or something like that. The Front National had no rival on the far right and narrowly beat him, to only lose 20-80 to Chirac in the second round.
In a way, having "first rounds" for the left and the right separately ensures you don't get this kind of scenarios. The superdelegate system itself is not that dumb, it's meant to prevent someone like Trump to win, but it clearly creates the feeling that some movements don't have a fair chance and imo should be removed.
Now, the main thing is that, had this election been in two rounds, Biden would have beaten Sanders all the same. And I have french friends voting for the far left who refuse to vote for a centre left or even centre right candidate when the opposition is Marine Le Pen for exactly the same argument as I read here, which makes me think that she will get elected one day. I just hope I have norwegian citizenship by then because she will go full Viktor Orban after a month if she gets the chance.
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I would be careful about saying "numbers don't lie" when quoting statistics released from China..
Numbers from any country might have inaccuracies, including the US, but that China is completely destroying the US in how they have handled the damage of the virus is not debatable. The number of infected in the US is also still rising rapidly.
The fact he blames the WHO for being "China friendly" when he fucked up this much worse himself almost made me chuckle.
I hope all this bridgeburning blows up in his face soon.
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On April 15 2020 21:35 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2020 21:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 15 2020 21:20 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 21:09 Gorsameth wrote:On April 15 2020 20:48 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 20:29 Simberto wrote:On April 15 2020 20:04 Neneu wrote:
I think if Trump wins his second term, it will be the final confirmation for allies that USA is an unreliable and destabilizing partner. And probably a good sign for progressives to try to leave the country and move to somewhere sensible. I think i am slowly arriving at the conclusion that the US simply cannot and does not want to be saved from their shitty systems. As such, on an individual level, the best choice is to try to get out to a country which is more sensible. The healthcare system alone is reason enough to leave. The fact that the votes of almost everyone are simply irrelevant, and those who can vote have to decide which the lesser of the two evils is does not bode well for any change in a positive direction either. The US seems to become worse and worse over time. I think the most viable option would be for Progressives to push for a two-round presidential election. That would give them a chance to actually build momentum over a few election cycles, with a real shot at having their candidate in the second round. Doesn't the primary already accomplish this? They wouldn't have to deal with the DNC bullshit. It could also potentially incentivize Progressives who are apathetic about the process and don't vote to actually vote. 2. Progressives can't (well, shouldn't) blame DNC bullshit this time around... they lost to Americans voting for a different candidate. A Bombardment of Manufactured Consent. Obama/DNC pushing/bribing other candidates out of the race + endorsements for Biden. Voter disenfranchisement/long lines in many states. Iowa. Debate rule adjustments to allow/disallow candidates. Stacking debate audiences. Arguably the entire impeachment proceeding (I'm sure it's just coincidence that the two things they've actually tried to nail Trump for are for going after Hillary and going after Biden and not any of the horrible stuff he has done). Claiming there was no DNC bullshit is just hilarious and/or malicious.
I love the "manufacture of consent" argument. It's so patronizing it's sickening. When people don't agree with you, instead of reevaluating how you deliver your message and figure out why you failed to convince, you just blame it on them being brainwashed and your opponent holding unfair advantages.
I wish for the progressives to grow stronger and one day, win. But fuck, with that attitude it's not happening anytime soon.
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On April 15 2020 21:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2020 21:35 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 21:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 15 2020 21:20 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 21:09 Gorsameth wrote:On April 15 2020 20:48 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 20:29 Simberto wrote:On April 15 2020 20:04 Neneu wrote:
I think if Trump wins his second term, it will be the final confirmation for allies that USA is an unreliable and destabilizing partner. And probably a good sign for progressives to try to leave the country and move to somewhere sensible. I think i am slowly arriving at the conclusion that the US simply cannot and does not want to be saved from their shitty systems. As such, on an individual level, the best choice is to try to get out to a country which is more sensible. The healthcare system alone is reason enough to leave. The fact that the votes of almost everyone are simply irrelevant, and those who can vote have to decide which the lesser of the two evils is does not bode well for any change in a positive direction either. The US seems to become worse and worse over time. I think the most viable option would be for Progressives to push for a two-round presidential election. That would give them a chance to actually build momentum over a few election cycles, with a real shot at having their candidate in the second round. Doesn't the primary already accomplish this? They wouldn't have to deal with the DNC bullshit. It could also potentially incentivize Progressives who are apathetic about the process and don't vote to actually vote. 1. How would it avoid DNC bullshit? 2. Progressives can't (well, shouldn't) blame DNC bullshit this time around... they lost to Americans voting for a different candidate. To clarify, I was talking about the presidential election, not the primaries being a two-round election. Progressives would circumvent the DNC by running their own candidate in the actual election. They could safely vote for him/her without the fear of splitting the vote. I agree that there are many issues with the US and it does seem beyond repair. What would round one of the general election look like, and what would round two look like? I'm also wondering how, at some point, it doesn't come down to the Democratic party splitting the vote between the moderate liberal candidate and the progressive candidate.
In the first round everyone votes according to their beliefs and in the second round for whatever they think is the best of two options left.
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Are you sure you want a social democracy, Biff? Literally all of your posting is consistent with the neoliberal framework of capitalism.
Not trying to judge, just curious.
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On April 15 2020 21:35 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2020 21:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 15 2020 21:20 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 21:09 Gorsameth wrote:On April 15 2020 20:48 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 20:29 Simberto wrote:On April 15 2020 20:04 Neneu wrote:
I think if Trump wins his second term, it will be the final confirmation for allies that USA is an unreliable and destabilizing partner. And probably a good sign for progressives to try to leave the country and move to somewhere sensible. I think i am slowly arriving at the conclusion that the US simply cannot and does not want to be saved from their shitty systems. As such, on an individual level, the best choice is to try to get out to a country which is more sensible. The healthcare system alone is reason enough to leave. The fact that the votes of almost everyone are simply irrelevant, and those who can vote have to decide which the lesser of the two evils is does not bode well for any change in a positive direction either. The US seems to become worse and worse over time. I think the most viable option would be for Progressives to push for a two-round presidential election. That would give them a chance to actually build momentum over a few election cycles, with a real shot at having their candidate in the second round. Doesn't the primary already accomplish this? They wouldn't have to deal with the DNC bullshit. It could also potentially incentivize Progressives who are apathetic about the process and don't vote to actually vote. 2. Progressives can't (well, shouldn't) blame DNC bullshit this time around... they lost to Americans voting for a different candidate. A Bombardment of Manufactured Consent. Obama/DNC pushing/bribing other candidates out of the race + endorsements for Biden. Voter disenfranchisement/long lines in many states. Iowa. Debate rule adjustments to allow/disallow candidates. Stacking debate audiences. Arguably the entire impeachment proceeding (I'm sure it's just coincidence that the two things they've actually tried to nail Trump for are for going after Hillary and going after Biden and not any of the horrible stuff he has done). Claiming there was no DNC bullshit is just hilarious and/or malicious.
The impeachment of Donald Trump was actually a secret plan to give Biden the primary win over Sanders, instead of the millions of legitimate reasons to actually impeach Donald Trump? That's a pretty absurd conspiracy theory, and I'd like you to provide a source that the DNC pushed for Trump's impeachment just so Biden would beat Sanders. Otherwise, I see the assertion as a complete non sequitur.
Also, source please that the long lines for voting were only against progressives and that voters for Biden somehow magically got to cut those long lines and weren't similarly disenfranchised?
I also thought it was laid to rest the silly idea that other moderate liberal candidates unifying behind their heaviest hitter was "DNC bullshit", as opposed to normal, common sense strategy for actually winning the primary and not diluting the centrist vote. I guess not.
Additionally (and separately... I'm not saying you're saying this part), I think it's seriously dangerous if progressives don't take any responsibility for losing the primary. The idea that progressives would have won the primary if only the primary were actually "fair" is a dangerous idea, because:
1. It's literally false;
2. It's not useful to us, as we should be continuously looking for ways to change the minds of voters and energizing them to vote. We did that quite a bit in 2016 and 2020, but it simply wasn't enough. Yet! It shouldn't come as a surprise that two election cycles weren't enough for a smaller wing of a large political party to overtake the establishment. At the end of the day, the Biden supporters outvoted the Sanders supporters. The argument that the DNC rigged the 2020 primary so now Sanders supporters should stay home in November to get revenge on the Democratic party... by ensuring that even less-progressive policies end up occurring for the next 4 years with a Trump win... is antithetical to our stances as progressives.
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On April 15 2020 21:59 Nebuchad wrote:
Are you sure you want a social democracy, Biff? Literally all of your posting is consistent with the neoliberal framework of capitalism.
Not trying to judge, just curious.
Absolutely. I live in Norway and I find the system here quite ideal. Low inequalities, excellent welfare state and so on and so forth. And within Norway, I vote left. In France I voted Mélenchon twice although to be frank he sickens me, for the exact same reason I am sickened by many Berniebros.
Care to tell me how I am a neoliberal capitalist?
I am curious of your definition of neoliberalism, though. 99,99% of the time it's used, it's a vague strawman that doesn't encompass anything real at all, used by people who have only very vague ideas of what they are talking about.
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On April 15 2020 21:56 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2020 21:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 15 2020 21:35 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 21:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 15 2020 21:20 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 21:09 Gorsameth wrote:On April 15 2020 20:48 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 20:29 Simberto wrote:On April 15 2020 20:04 Neneu wrote:
I think if Trump wins his second term, it will be the final confirmation for allies that USA is an unreliable and destabilizing partner. And probably a good sign for progressives to try to leave the country and move to somewhere sensible. I think i am slowly arriving at the conclusion that the US simply cannot and does not want to be saved from their shitty systems. As such, on an individual level, the best choice is to try to get out to a country which is more sensible. The healthcare system alone is reason enough to leave. The fact that the votes of almost everyone are simply irrelevant, and those who can vote have to decide which the lesser of the two evils is does not bode well for any change in a positive direction either. The US seems to become worse and worse over time. I think the most viable option would be for Progressives to push for a two-round presidential election. That would give them a chance to actually build momentum over a few election cycles, with a real shot at having their candidate in the second round. Doesn't the primary already accomplish this? They wouldn't have to deal with the DNC bullshit. It could also potentially incentivize Progressives who are apathetic about the process and don't vote to actually vote. 1. How would it avoid DNC bullshit? 2. Progressives can't (well, shouldn't) blame DNC bullshit this time around... they lost to Americans voting for a different candidate. To clarify, I was talking about the presidential election, not the primaries being a two-round election. Progressives would circumvent the DNC by running their own candidate in the actual election. They could safely vote for him/her without the fear of splitting the vote. I agree that there are many issues with the US and it does seem beyond repair. What would round one of the general election look like, and what would round two look like? I'm also wondering how, at some point, it doesn't come down to the Democratic party splitting the vote between the moderate liberal candidate and the progressive candidate. In the first round everyone votes according to their beliefs and in the second round for whatever they think is the best of two options left.
I'm having some trouble understanding how that would effectively change things. Isn't that basically what happened anyway? As the incumbent Republican leader with a high approval rate (within the Republican party), Trump easily takes one of those two spots; the other spot would go to the Democratic candidate who has the most support... which was Biden. Even if we're limiting this double-round scenario to just Democrats and excluding Trump, the primary still demonstrated (even more extremely) how the final two (Biden vs. Sanders) resulted in a pretty lopsided win for Biden over Sanders. The primary votes demonstrated this... it would still be Biden vs. Trump.
Also, I'm worried that we're trying to merely posit a new voting system that literally rigs the election for our progressive candidate, as opposed to it being legitimately fair. This would fail the "veil of ignorance" test pretty easily, I think.
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You remove the other candidates by cutting off their funding and promising stuff to them. If you have a somewhat coordinated, small, donor class, it's pretty easy to do that, especially if they all have the same interests. You keep Warren in the race by not cutting her funding, actually by increasing her funding (remember how she suddenly got a Superpac at the end?) That Superpac was heavily financed by a specific donor, Karla Jurvetson. If you look into her you can clearly see that she wasn't actually interested in Warren winning (and btw, immediately after Biden got his big win, she stopped funding Warren).
For the DNC alone, you can see Tom Perez after Iowa, when Sanders was doing his remontada and looked like he was going to get Buttigieg: "Enough is enough, recount!!", but suddenly Sanders stopped just short of overcoming: "Actually it's okay, no recount". A bunch of mistakes are discovered in the calculations of the Iowa primary, they have a lawyer arguing that it would be unfair to the spirit of the primary to correct those mistakes (or whatever he said exactly, I don't remember).
The DNC is liberal, they want a liberal to win. Why wouldn't they? It makes logical sense. I don't understand why leftists are supposed to be all naive about what we can do with politics because politics are treacherous and we want unicorns, but when presented with the most obvious political maneuvers, we're the only people who don't deny their existence.
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Warren officially endorsing Biden. Does that mean she's out of the VP race? or does endorsing not impact that?
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On April 15 2020 21:56 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2020 21:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 15 2020 21:35 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 21:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 15 2020 21:20 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 21:09 Gorsameth wrote:On April 15 2020 20:48 maybenexttime wrote:On April 15 2020 20:29 Simberto wrote:On April 15 2020 20:04 Neneu wrote:
I think if Trump wins his second term, it will be the final confirmation for allies that USA is an unreliable and destabilizing partner. And probably a good sign for progressives to try to leave the country and move to somewhere sensible. I think i am slowly arriving at the conclusion that the US simply cannot and does not want to be saved from their shitty systems. As such, on an individual level, the best choice is to try to get out to a country which is more sensible. The healthcare system alone is reason enough to leave. The fact that the votes of almost everyone are simply irrelevant, and those who can vote have to decide which the lesser of the two evils is does not bode well for any change in a positive direction either. The US seems to become worse and worse over time. I think the most viable option would be for Progressives to push for a two-round presidential election. That would give them a chance to actually build momentum over a few election cycles, with a real shot at having their candidate in the second round. Doesn't the primary already accomplish this? They wouldn't have to deal with the DNC bullshit. It could also potentially incentivize Progressives who are apathetic about the process and don't vote to actually vote. 1. How would it avoid DNC bullshit? 2. Progressives can't (well, shouldn't) blame DNC bullshit this time around... they lost to Americans voting for a different candidate. To clarify, I was talking about the presidential election, not the primaries being a two-round election. Progressives would circumvent the DNC by running their own candidate in the actual election. They could safely vote for him/her without the fear of splitting the vote. I agree that there are many issues with the US and it does seem beyond repair. What would round one of the general election look like, and what would round two look like? I'm also wondering how, at some point, it doesn't come down to the Democratic party splitting the vote between the moderate liberal candidate and the progressive candidate. In the first round everyone votes according to their beliefs and in the second round for whatever they think is the best of two options left. That is what you have now. Round 1 is the primary where people vote according to their beliefs and round 2 is the general election where they vote for the best of 2 options left.
Those who cba to vote now in the primary will do the same in round 1 of a 2 round general election.
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EPT
