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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
Not at relief efforts to help foster a healthy recovery from the virus, ultimately improving the stock market as well. No. Directly at the market. They threw $1,500 billion dollars down the pisser. Enough money to fund fucking anything. Money that "just isn't there" for programs like Medicare for All, or student debt forgiveness programs. Or economic stimulus. Or fucking pandemic aid. The market went up for about 15 minutes and carried on its merry downward trend anyway. This is fine. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46060 Posts
On March 13 2020 11:11 NewSunshine wrote: Let's not let it slide that while all this is happening, the federal government threw 1.5 trillion dollars at the stock market to keep it from plummeting as the virus takes its toll. Not at relief efforts to help foster a healthy recovery from the virus, ultimately improving the stock market as well. No. Directly at the market. They threw $1,500 billion dollars down the pisser. Enough money to fund fucking anything. Money that "just isn't there" for programs like Medicare for All, or student debt forgiveness programs. Or economic stimulus. Or fucking pandemic aid. The market went up for about 15 minutes and carried on its merry downward trend anyway. This is fine. I'm so pissed at this. There is literally no price tag too expensive for the USA, if our leaders want it bad enough. That's why we need to elect leaders who want the same things we do. Anyone who ever whines "But how will we pay for program X that has huge benefits for society!?" needs to be kicked off this planet. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On March 13 2020 11:11 NewSunshine wrote: Let's not let it slide that while all this is happening, the federal government threw 1.5 trillion dollars at the stock market to keep it from plummeting as the virus takes its toll. Not at relief efforts to help foster a healthy recovery from the virus, ultimately improving the stock market as well. No. Directly at the market. They threw $1,500 billion dollars down the pisser. Enough money to fund fucking anything. Money that "just isn't there" for programs like Medicare for All, or student debt forgiveness programs. Or economic stimulus. Or fucking pandemic aid. The market went up for about 15 minutes and carried on its merry downward trend anyway. This is fine. Indeed. At least as much money as the 2008 bailout (probably much more), spent like it's nothing, right where it will do the least good. Propping up the stock market may be futile at this point, but that doesn't change that too many people have convinced themselves (by virtue of a very long, profitable run) that the stock market is the economy. Of course, even all this money is just a fraction of how much value is evaporating as the market falls, so of course it did remarkably little. | ||
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RenSC2
United States1091 Posts
On March 13 2020 11:11 NewSunshine wrote: Let's not let it slide that while all this is happening, the federal government threw 1.5 trillion dollars at the stock market to keep it from plummeting as the virus takes its toll. Not at relief efforts to help foster a healthy recovery from the virus, ultimately improving the stock market as well. No. Directly at the market. They threw $1,500 billion dollars down the pisser. Enough money to fund fucking anything. Money that "just isn't there" for programs like Medicare for All, or student debt forgiveness programs. Or economic stimulus. Or fucking pandemic aid. The market went up for about 15 minutes and carried on its merry downward trend anyway. This is fine. Can you give a summary of how the government threw 1.5 trillion dollars at the stock market? I presume they didn’t just buy up 1.5 trillion dollars worth of stock. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On March 13 2020 12:30 RenSC2 wrote: Can you give a summary of how the government threw 1.5 trillion dollars at the stock market? I presume they didn’t just buy up 1.5 trillion dollars worth of stock. They basically gave the banks more money to play with, so that they would throw 1.5 trillion dollars at the market. This article gives a reasonably good overview of how the concept is meant to work: Basically, the Fed is offering to do a bunch of dirt-cheap overnight lending to the banks through an oddball financial transaction, to make sure the whole financial system has enough immediately-accessible money to keep functioning smoothly. That's your short and pithy summary. But explaining it further requires a brief history lesson, plus some wonkery. So buckle up! When people say the Federal Reserve "creates" money, what they're actually referring to are reserves — the money banks hold at the Fed, the same way you hold your money at the bank. Traditionally, the way the Fed adjusted interest rates was by creating reserves and using them to buy U.S. Treasury bonds from the banks, or by selling bonds to the banks and taking reserves in exchange. The first move added to the supply of reserves in the system, while lowering the interest banks charged each other for those reserves. The second move did the opposite. By manipulating the interest banks charged each other for reserves, the Fed adjusted how much lending the banks would do to businesses and individuals, and what interest rate they would charge. The advantage of doing so seems pretty dubious, though, since it does nothing to address the actual problem. It just pumps money into the system where it's just going to get swept away by the larger trend of the tumbling stock market. If anything, the application of the stimulus just increases the panic of people who are increasingly becoming convinced that this whole thing is a massive crisis. | ||
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RenSC2
United States1091 Posts
On March 13 2020 13:33 LegalLord wrote: They basically gave the banks more money to play with, so that they would throw 1.5 trillion dollars at the market. This article gives a reasonably good overview of how the concept is meant to work: The advantage of doing so seems pretty dubious, though, since it does nothing to address the actual problem. It just pumps money into the system where it's just going to get swept away by the larger trend of the tumbling stock market. If anything, the application of the stimulus just increases the panic of people who are increasingly becoming convinced that this whole thing is a massive crisis. Which is borrowed money that will be paid back. So the only thing they're missing out on is the higher interest that they should have had. That's very different than spending 1.5 trillion on something. | ||
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On March 13 2020 09:34 m4ini wrote: I was thinking similar. At first i somehow felt somewhat offended, but after looking closer at how the US handles this pandemic (or the shocking, jaw dropping lack of handling), i started to be happy again. Then i remembered that i now live in the US' I absolutely can't grasp why people aren't taking to the streets (well probably not the greatest idea currently, granted) and demanding actual action. Four days ago, the US tested a whopping 4500 people altogether, nationwide - of which around 10% tested positive. That's a ridiculous number. Both because it's so laughably small in people tested, and because it's so shockingly obvious that there's a lot of cases out there. If that doesn't show the blatant inability of your administration, i don't know who's worse: trump, trying his usual spin of "hoax", then "foreign invasion" - or people actually arguing that this isn't the absolutely most retarded way possible to respond to something that is fucking obviously the worst threat to our health in our lifetime/generation. To the point where the UK Prime Minister prepares his people with the sentence "more families, uh, many more families are going to lose loved ones before their time". I can't stand the dumb memes of "flu kills that many people, corona only killed that many" - which is basically the US in a nutshell. I just can't fathom the idiocy of it. If extrapolated and 10% of the population is infected with C-19 then the CFR for C-19 is laughably low and the hysteria about it is doing far more harm (economic, which is real life and death shit, just ask any poor and or communist/socialist country) than the virus itself. Also, comparing C-19 to the Flu is apt, as the flu is one of the deadliest seasonal virologies on the planet and yet our response to the flu isn't to destroy economic activity and isolate ourselves like its 28-days later. I suspect the CFR rate is closer to the #'s in Korea (probably somewhere between 4-6x of the flu's .1% CFR). The "upside" to C-19 is that it is less deadly for healthy adults and children/babies than the flu. Speaking of, didn't some of y'all talk about wanting boomers to die for your glorious revolution anyways? /shrug | ||
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CatharsisUT
United States487 Posts
On March 13 2020 11:11 NewSunshine wrote: Let's not let it slide that while all this is happening, the federal government threw 1.5 trillion dollars at the stock market to keep it from plummeting as the virus takes its toll. Not at relief efforts to help foster a healthy recovery from the virus, ultimately improving the stock market as well. No. Directly at the market. They threw $1,500 billion dollars down the pisser. Enough money to fund fucking anything. Money that "just isn't there" for programs like Medicare for All, or student debt forgiveness programs. Or economic stimulus. Or fucking pandemic aid. The market went up for about 15 minutes and carried on its merry downward trend anyway. This is fine. You guys know that's not how this works, right? These are short-term secured loans. They didn't just give money away. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On March 13 2020 07:35 Introvert wrote: Dude, read the parts you quoted to me also. They all begin something like "The fiscal year (FY) 201X President’s Budget request." before listing numbers. While I accept your response to Belisarius as typically accurate introvert, we're breaching willfully ignorant with the data here. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On March 13 2020 13:33 LegalLord wrote: They basically gave the banks more money to play with, so that they would throw 1.5 trillion dollars at the market. This article gives a reasonably good overview of how the concept is meant to work: The advantage of doing so seems pretty dubious, though, since it does nothing to address the actual problem. It just pumps money into the system where it's just going to get swept away by the larger trend of the tumbling stock market. If anything, the application of the stimulus just increases the panic of people who are increasingly becoming convinced that this whole thing is a massive crisis. I mean if they really wanted to solve the root cause, for that money they could've given every American ~$4300, imposed lockdown procedures for a month (basically everything non-essential shuts down), and let it burn out. Probably a bit more thought needs to go into it for things like mortgages/rent payments etc, but that's the basics of it. Without addressing why the market is spooked, they might as well burn the money instead as all the money in the world won't stem the bleeding. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24024 Posts
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On March 13 2020 16:10 GreenHorizons wrote: CNN clip explaining why our healthcare system not being a universal single payer one directly contributes to our inability to handle even the rudimentary steps of handling this pandemic, namely testing. https://twitter.com/jakemerci/status/1238198942254448644 Can you describe to me the Italian healthcare system, thanks. (PS: You do know the CDC/FDA has basically outlawed private lab testing, right? That's a huge issue, but sure, let's gloss over that to push the narrative) | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
As Wegandi points out it seems to be the case that federal legislation stopped localities from developing their own tests (I think in this case it's a simple PCR procedure?) which is ridiculous. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24024 Posts
On March 13 2020 17:27 Nyxisto wrote: The reason why the US isn't testing well enough is a lack of infrastructure and supplies to actually test. Insurance pays your bills, they don't take mouth swaps. The UK is in the absolutely same atrocious situation, not to mention they actually halved the number of hospital beds in the last 20 years. Lots of reasons the US isn't testing enough and fear of not being able to afford the test is one of them. It means even if we had the tests and the ability to use them, people couldn't afford them. Even if they were free people would be skeptical they wouldn't end up billed for other aspects of care they can't afford. If we managed to clear all that there would still be a bureaucratic mishmash of nonsense process to make sure people can profit from this misery that slows down every aspect. Pandemics are very much a "time is of the essence" situation as well. | ||
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On March 13 2020 17:32 GreenHorizons wrote: Lots of reasons the US isn't testing enough and fear of not being able to afford the test is one of them. It means even if we had the tests and the ability to use them, people couldn't afford them. Even if they were free people would be skeptical they wouldn't end up billed for other aspects of care they can't afford. If we managed to clear all that there would still be a bureaucratic mishmash of nonsense process to make sure people can profit from this misery that slows down every aspect. Pandemics are very much a "time is of the essence" situation as well. Yeah, the US should be more like Italy. | ||
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thePunGun
598 Posts
On March 13 2020 14:21 RenSC2 wrote: Which is borrowed money that will be paid back. So the only thing they're missing out on is the higher interest that they should have had. That's very different than spending 1.5 trillion on something. Uhm, you do know how money is created right? Every dollar ever created is basically a debt/loan by the US government and it's the american people, who'll be paying off that debt for years to come. That's how treasury bonds work... edit: On March 13 2020 19:00 RenSC2 wrote: It's short term loans that will be paid back within days to ensure the repo market doesn't freeze up. This is not dollar creation in any meaningful way. The US taxpayer doesn't suddenly owe 1.5 trillion more unless you want to say that in a few days the US taxpayer will suddenly receive 1.5 trillion dollars. https://slate.com/business/2020/03/federal-reserve-bond-market-wall-street-trillion.html Oh, ok..nvm then.  | ||
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RenSC2
United States1091 Posts
On March 13 2020 18:31 thePunGun wrote: Uhm, you do know how money is created right? Every dollar ever created is basically a debt/loan by the US government and it's the american people, who'll be paying off that debt for years to come. That's how treasury bonds work... It's short term loans that will be paid back within days to ensure the repo market doesn't freeze up. This is not dollar creation in any meaningful way. The US taxpayer doesn't suddenly owe 1.5 trillion more unless you want to say that in a few days the US taxpayer will suddenly receive 1.5 trillion dollars. https://slate.com/business/2020/03/federal-reserve-bond-market-wall-street-trillion.html | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8098 Posts
On March 13 2020 14:24 Wegandi wrote: If extrapolated and 10% of the population is infected with C-19 then the CFR for C-19 is laughably low and the hysteria about it is doing far more harm (economic, which is real life and death shit, just ask any poor and or communist/socialist country) than the virus itself. Also, comparing C-19 to the Flu is apt, as the flu is one of the deadliest seasonal virologies on the planet and yet our response to the flu isn't to destroy economic activity and isolate ourselves like its 28-days later. I suspect the CFR rate is closer to the #'s in Korea (probably somewhere between 4-6x of the flu's .1% CFR). The "upside" to C-19 is that it is less deadly for healthy adults and children/babies than the flu. Speaking of, didn't some of y'all talk about wanting boomers to die for your glorious revolution anyways? /shrug I don't get it. If you have no clue what you are talking about why do you talk? The mortality of the covid is between 1 and 3% according to the WHO data. The flu is at 0,1% at its very worst. And that's if people are treated properly. In Italy there has been 600 death for 10000 people infected, because the health services were totally overwhelmed. That's 6 fucking percent. Doctors had to chose who would be left dying and who would get a respirator. In China the death rate was 18+% for the elderly, but still 1,3% for the 50-59 yo, which is huge. Do you think China puts dozen of millions of people under quarantine and Europe literally grinds to a halt because of "hysteria". This shit is much more contagious than the regular flu, again, according to the WHO. And wtf does it have to do with socialism. Get a grip. | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On March 13 2020 19:03 Biff The Understudy wrote: I don't get it. If you have no clue what you are talking about why do you talk? The mortality of the covid is between 1 and 3% according to the WHO data. The flu is at 0,1% at its very worst. And that's if people are treated properly. In Italy there has been 600 death for 10000 people infected, because the health services were totally overwhelmed. That's 6 fucking percent. Doctors had to chose who would be left dying and who would get a respirator. In China the death rate was 18+% for the elderly, but still 1,3% for the 50-59 yo, which is huge. Do you think China puts dozen of millions of people under quarantine and Europe literally grinds to a halt because of "hysteria". This shit is much more contagious than the regular flu, again, according to the WHO. And wtf does it have to do with socialism. Get a grip. Not the right topic for this, but if https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ is about right with the numbers, the mortality is possibly even worse. That is if you compare Recovered and Dead. If their "serious or critical" number is right, the number might remain like that or get worse. And yes, the virus gets worse and the worse the more infected there are, because of what you said. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9860 Posts
On March 13 2020 14:24 Wegandi wrote: If extrapolated and 10% of the population is infected with C-19 then the CFR for C-19 is laughably low and the hysteria about it is doing far more harm (economic, which is real life and death shit, just ask any poor and or communist/socialist country) than the virus itself. Also, comparing C-19 to the Flu is apt, as the flu is one of the deadliest seasonal virologies on the planet and yet our response to the flu isn't to destroy economic activity and isolate ourselves like its 28-days later. I think i misunderstood your post as criticizing lockdowns for the virus... anyway The US WILL take measures similar to Italy, they just aren't there yet. That is, unless they are confident their healthcare system can handle a ridiculous spike in activity without massive, life threatening issues. The shutdowns and quarantines and lockdowns aren't to stop the virus, they are to slow it down to smooth out the spike of hospital admissions at a time where staff in hospitals are likely to be infected and working anyway to be able to cope with demand. Have you seen what is happening in hospitals in countries that weren't prepared for this? Virus infected staff passing the illness on to patients, under resourced hospitals having to literally choose who to let die because they have too many cases to deal with in addition to their normal workload etc etc. So its a case of balancing the economic issues with huge potential for loss of life. | ||
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