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On January 06 2020 00:06 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2020 21:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2020 11:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 05 2020 09:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Pompeo says that Europeans aren't being as helpful as he'd like relating to the assassination of Soleimani On January 05 2020 03:53 Nouar wrote:On January 05 2020 00:29 GreenHorizons wrote:
Top UN reporter on torture says Chelsea Manning's imprisonment and the US's treatment of her violate international human rights obligations.
A shame the US doesn't recognize any international institution that could hold them to account for anything. Think he's talking about stuff like that Nouar, not very helpful at all. He says you guys just don't understand. "The Brits, the French, the Germans all need to understand that what we did, what the Americans did, saved lives in Europe as well,"
"This was a good thing for the entire world, and we're urging everyone in the world to get behind what the United States is trying to do, to get the Islamic Republic of Iran to simply behave like a normal nation" A little appreciation Europeans would be nice is all I'm saying. I'm being facetious but it's pretty much on you guys to check the US by way of siding against the US in more than symbolic UN votes. Just hand-wringing and berating the buffoons in charge won't be enough. But yes they don’t fucking do anything tangible other than handwringing. The entire EU saying fuck off we don’t support this measure and we’ll actually do something tangible actually means something. What the Europeans do doesn’t tend to be anywhere near as forceful, which is a real shame. Turns out the assassination was a bit of a "whoopsie" by the military leaders dealing with Trump Probably not much of a consolation but the hand-wringing seems to be the go to strategy for Democrats and even the military too. It's a bit strange that the officials feel obliged to follow up on the orders and carry out the strike they never really wanted to do, out of some sort of honor duty to the chain of command, but have no honor issue with immediately telling the press about these sensitive decisions afterwards, because they were 'flabbergasted' and feel bad. How about they don't do the strike in the first place if it was an outlandish option.
Yeah and you'll see military folks wipe a year from their eye hearing about this sort of thing. Even the well educated military people I know take extreme pride in the fact that they would never defy command. They love the idea of completely surrendering their own morals to the military.
It's a really weird and sad thing. It's similar to cultural hegemony. Somehow, we allowed the powerful to let us believe the young and powerless never questioning the morality of what they are doing is a good thing. It isn't. It makes the military more efficient, but at the cost of shame.
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On January 06 2020 00:59 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2020 00:06 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On January 05 2020 21:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2020 11:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 05 2020 09:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Pompeo says that Europeans aren't being as helpful as he'd like relating to the assassination of Soleimani https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1213500591646945286On January 05 2020 03:53 Nouar wrote:A shame the US doesn't recognize any international institution that could hold them to account for anything. Think he's talking about stuff like that Nouar, not very helpful at all. He says you guys just don't understand. "The Brits, the French, the Germans all need to understand that what we did, what the Americans did, saved lives in Europe as well,"
"This was a good thing for the entire world, and we're urging everyone in the world to get behind what the United States is trying to do, to get the Islamic Republic of Iran to simply behave like a normal nation" A little appreciation Europeans would be nice is all I'm saying. I'm being facetious but it's pretty much on you guys to check the US by way of siding against the US in more than symbolic UN votes. Just hand-wringing and berating the buffoons in charge won't be enough. But yes they don’t fucking do anything tangible other than handwringing. The entire EU saying fuck off we don’t support this measure and we’ll actually do something tangible actually means something. What the Europeans do doesn’t tend to be anywhere near as forceful, which is a real shame. Turns out the assassination was a bit of a "whoopsie" by the military leaders dealing with Trump https://twitter.com/KBAndersen/status/1213663996152340481Probably not much of a consolation but the hand-wringing seems to be the go to strategy for Democrats and even the military too. It's a bit strange that the officials feel obliged to follow up on the orders and carry out the strike they never really wanted to do, out of some sort of honor duty to the chain of command, but have no honor issue with immediately telling the press about these sensitive decisions afterwards, because they were 'flabbergasted' and feel bad. How about they don't do the strike in the first place if it was an outlandish option. Yeah and you'll see military folks wipe a year from their eye hearing about this sort of thing. Even the well educated military people I know take extreme pride in the fact that they would never defy command. They love the idea of completely surrendering their own morals to the military. It's a really weird and sad thing. It's similar to cultural hegemony. Somehow, we allowed the powerful to let us believe the young and powerless never questioning the morality of what they are doing is a good thing. It isn't. It makes the military more efficient, but at the cost of shame.
Dont know who you know in the military, but as someone that is in the military, I would say that this is a pretty poor generalization.
Also those tweets, if true, are pretty damning.
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On January 06 2020 00:48 ImFromPortugal wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Basically the guy was in Iraq on a diplomatic mission to mediate between Iran and Saudi Arabia.
That is fucked up if it's true.
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On January 06 2020 00:59 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2020 00:06 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On January 05 2020 21:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2020 11:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 05 2020 09:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Pompeo says that Europeans aren't being as helpful as he'd like relating to the assassination of Soleimani https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1213500591646945286On January 05 2020 03:53 Nouar wrote:A shame the US doesn't recognize any international institution that could hold them to account for anything. Think he's talking about stuff like that Nouar, not very helpful at all. He says you guys just don't understand. "The Brits, the French, the Germans all need to understand that what we did, what the Americans did, saved lives in Europe as well,"
"This was a good thing for the entire world, and we're urging everyone in the world to get behind what the United States is trying to do, to get the Islamic Republic of Iran to simply behave like a normal nation" A little appreciation Europeans would be nice is all I'm saying. I'm being facetious but it's pretty much on you guys to check the US by way of siding against the US in more than symbolic UN votes. Just hand-wringing and berating the buffoons in charge won't be enough. But yes they don’t fucking do anything tangible other than handwringing. The entire EU saying fuck off we don’t support this measure and we’ll actually do something tangible actually means something. What the Europeans do doesn’t tend to be anywhere near as forceful, which is a real shame. Turns out the assassination was a bit of a "whoopsie" by the military leaders dealing with Trump https://twitter.com/KBAndersen/status/1213663996152340481Probably not much of a consolation but the hand-wringing seems to be the go to strategy for Democrats and even the military too. It's a bit strange that the officials feel obliged to follow up on the orders and carry out the strike they never really wanted to do, out of some sort of honor duty to the chain of command, but have no honor issue with immediately telling the press about these sensitive decisions afterwards, because they were 'flabbergasted' and feel bad. How about they don't do the strike in the first place if it was an outlandish option. Yeah and you'll see military folks wipe a year from their eye hearing about this sort of thing. Even the well educated military people I know take extreme pride in the fact that they would never defy command. They love the idea of completely surrendering their own morals to the military. It's a really weird and sad thing. It's similar to cultural hegemony. Somehow, we allowed the powerful to let us believe the young and powerless never questioning the morality of what they are doing is a good thing. It isn't. It makes the military more efficient, but at the cost of shame.
There are few jobs where probing the morality of what you're doing won't get you fired and few communities that don't treat that unemployment as your own personal failure.
Alternatively, unquestioning obedience to your superiors is one of the most reliable ways to both secure a position and rise in an organization over better qualified candidates.
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So from those Tweets, we lured Sol by asking him to help resolve a conflict, then blew him up while he was on his way?
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Canada5565 Posts
It's been interesting to watch conservative right infighting over the assassination and Iran in general. Seems to have added a lot to a growing fissure between neocons and 'America First' people highly critical of Trump. Imo, every overseas military action (except al baghdadi) weakens Trump's base.
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Looks like the US is now getting voted out of Iraq. This will create interesting logistic problems for the 'secure the oil' troopers in east Syria
It's also an interesting case in point that lack of soft power can also lead to a worsened military position.
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United States24740 Posts
On January 06 2020 00:59 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2020 00:06 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On January 05 2020 21:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2020 11:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 05 2020 09:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Pompeo says that Europeans aren't being as helpful as he'd like relating to the assassination of Soleimani https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1213500591646945286On January 05 2020 03:53 Nouar wrote:A shame the US doesn't recognize any international institution that could hold them to account for anything. Think he's talking about stuff like that Nouar, not very helpful at all. He says you guys just don't understand. "The Brits, the French, the Germans all need to understand that what we did, what the Americans did, saved lives in Europe as well,"
"This was a good thing for the entire world, and we're urging everyone in the world to get behind what the United States is trying to do, to get the Islamic Republic of Iran to simply behave like a normal nation" A little appreciation Europeans would be nice is all I'm saying. I'm being facetious but it's pretty much on you guys to check the US by way of siding against the US in more than symbolic UN votes. Just hand-wringing and berating the buffoons in charge won't be enough. But yes they don’t fucking do anything tangible other than handwringing. The entire EU saying fuck off we don’t support this measure and we’ll actually do something tangible actually means something. What the Europeans do doesn’t tend to be anywhere near as forceful, which is a real shame. Turns out the assassination was a bit of a "whoopsie" by the military leaders dealing with Trump https://twitter.com/KBAndersen/status/1213663996152340481Probably not much of a consolation but the hand-wringing seems to be the go to strategy for Democrats and even the military too. It's a bit strange that the officials feel obliged to follow up on the orders and carry out the strike they never really wanted to do, out of some sort of honor duty to the chain of command, but have no honor issue with immediately telling the press about these sensitive decisions afterwards, because they were 'flabbergasted' and feel bad. How about they don't do the strike in the first place if it was an outlandish option. Yeah and you'll see military folks wipe a year from their eye hearing about this sort of thing. Even the well educated military people I know take extreme pride in the fact that they would never defy command. They love the idea of completely surrendering their own morals to the military.It's a really weird and sad thing. It's similar to cultural hegemony. Somehow, we allowed the powerful to let us believe the young and powerless never questioning the morality of what they are doing is a good thing. It isn't. It makes the military more efficient, but at the cost of shame.
First of all, are you sure the part in bold is actually true? I don't think I've encountered that type of mindset outside of those whose job it is to deliver nuclear weapons, and I expect I've spoken with many more "well education military people" than you. Even in the case of participants in the nuclear triad, they have to say they will follow orders no matter what (even launching nuclear strikes against populated cities) because otherwise the deterrent doesn't work.
Second, this may vary depending on the branch of the military you are talking about, but I can say in recent years (if not decades) there has been a strong push for everyone in the military from the lowest to the highest ranks to develop their brains and actually use them, rather than just blindly follow orders. I have not seen emphasis on the importance of following orders even when they are morally and ethically wrong. In my initial officer training, one of the points emphasized for us was the hierarchy of ethical responsibilities. #1 wasn't the Commander in Chief, it was the constitution.
Of course, we can't have every soldier disobeying every order until their leadership can fully explain all of the geopolitical factors that contributed towards the order. Most of the time people receiving orders have incomplete information, and refusing to comply while in the military is at best a silver bullet that, if you are really lucky, will get you exonerated later.
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On January 05 2020 11:08 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2020 10:55 Erasme wrote:On January 05 2020 09:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Pompeo says that Europeans aren't being as helpful as he'd like relating to the assassination of Soleimani https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1213500591646945286On January 05 2020 03:53 Nouar wrote:A shame the US doesn't recognize any international institution that could hold them to account for anything. Think he's talking about stuff like that Nouar, not very helpful at all. He says you guys just don't understand. "The Brits, the French, the Germans all need to understand that what we did, what the Americans did, saved lives in Europe as well,"
"This was a good thing for the entire world, and we're urging everyone in the world to get behind what the United States is trying to do, to get the Islamic Republic of Iran to simply behave like a normal nation" A little appreciation Europeans would be nice is all I'm saying. I'm being facetious but it's pretty much on you guys to check the US by way of siding against the US in more than symbolic UN votes. Just hand-wringing and berating the buffoons in charge won't be enough. i dont think europeans wanted to be a part of it, just like some countries didn't want to be part of an intervention in iraq If we hold our hands over our eyes that means we can tell people we didn't know it happened and couldn't have done anything about what happened.
More like the war in Iraq was illegal so we told the US to fuckoff, and that assassination was a dumb move that noone with a brain would've ordered.
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Northern Ireland26021 Posts
On January 06 2020 01:12 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2020 00:59 Mohdoo wrote:On January 06 2020 00:06 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On January 05 2020 21:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2020 11:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 05 2020 09:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Pompeo says that Europeans aren't being as helpful as he'd like relating to the assassination of Soleimani https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1213500591646945286On January 05 2020 03:53 Nouar wrote:A shame the US doesn't recognize any international institution that could hold them to account for anything. Think he's talking about stuff like that Nouar, not very helpful at all. He says you guys just don't understand. "The Brits, the French, the Germans all need to understand that what we did, what the Americans did, saved lives in Europe as well,"
"This was a good thing for the entire world, and we're urging everyone in the world to get behind what the United States is trying to do, to get the Islamic Republic of Iran to simply behave like a normal nation" A little appreciation Europeans would be nice is all I'm saying. I'm being facetious but it's pretty much on you guys to check the US by way of siding against the US in more than symbolic UN votes. Just hand-wringing and berating the buffoons in charge won't be enough. But yes they don’t fucking do anything tangible other than handwringing. The entire EU saying fuck off we don’t support this measure and we’ll actually do something tangible actually means something. What the Europeans do doesn’t tend to be anywhere near as forceful, which is a real shame. Turns out the assassination was a bit of a "whoopsie" by the military leaders dealing with Trump https://twitter.com/KBAndersen/status/1213663996152340481Probably not much of a consolation but the hand-wringing seems to be the go to strategy for Democrats and even the military too. It's a bit strange that the officials feel obliged to follow up on the orders and carry out the strike they never really wanted to do, out of some sort of honor duty to the chain of command, but have no honor issue with immediately telling the press about these sensitive decisions afterwards, because they were 'flabbergasted' and feel bad. How about they don't do the strike in the first place if it was an outlandish option. Yeah and you'll see military folks wipe a year from their eye hearing about this sort of thing. Even the well educated military people I know take extreme pride in the fact that they would never defy command. They love the idea of completely surrendering their own morals to the military. It's a really weird and sad thing. It's similar to cultural hegemony. Somehow, we allowed the powerful to let us believe the young and powerless never questioning the morality of what they are doing is a good thing. It isn't. It makes the military more efficient, but at the cost of shame. Dont know who you know in the military, but as someone that is in the military, I would say that this is a pretty poor generalization. Also those tweets, if true, are pretty damning.
It’s bloody mind-boggling if it’s true. If.
It only makes any kind of sense if Trump wants to fuck off out of the Middle East entirely, bar propping up the Saudis and Israel of course.
If that’s the end game then I guess, sure doing things like this, or abandoning the Kurds do that.
Even being that charitable, which I feel is a stretch anyway, showing yourself as a totally unreliable and duplicitous ally is about the worst way you can go about it.
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On January 06 2020 03:06 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2020 01:12 Stratos_speAr wrote:On January 06 2020 00:59 Mohdoo wrote:On January 06 2020 00:06 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On January 05 2020 21:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2020 11:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 05 2020 09:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Pompeo says that Europeans aren't being as helpful as he'd like relating to the assassination of Soleimani https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1213500591646945286On January 05 2020 03:53 Nouar wrote:A shame the US doesn't recognize any international institution that could hold them to account for anything. Think he's talking about stuff like that Nouar, not very helpful at all. He says you guys just don't understand. "The Brits, the French, the Germans all need to understand that what we did, what the Americans did, saved lives in Europe as well,"
"This was a good thing for the entire world, and we're urging everyone in the world to get behind what the United States is trying to do, to get the Islamic Republic of Iran to simply behave like a normal nation" A little appreciation Europeans would be nice is all I'm saying. I'm being facetious but it's pretty much on you guys to check the US by way of siding against the US in more than symbolic UN votes. Just hand-wringing and berating the buffoons in charge won't be enough. But yes they don’t fucking do anything tangible other than handwringing. The entire EU saying fuck off we don’t support this measure and we’ll actually do something tangible actually means something. What the Europeans do doesn’t tend to be anywhere near as forceful, which is a real shame. Turns out the assassination was a bit of a "whoopsie" by the military leaders dealing with Trump https://twitter.com/KBAndersen/status/1213663996152340481Probably not much of a consolation but the hand-wringing seems to be the go to strategy for Democrats and even the military too. It's a bit strange that the officials feel obliged to follow up on the orders and carry out the strike they never really wanted to do, out of some sort of honor duty to the chain of command, but have no honor issue with immediately telling the press about these sensitive decisions afterwards, because they were 'flabbergasted' and feel bad. How about they don't do the strike in the first place if it was an outlandish option. Yeah and you'll see military folks wipe a year from their eye hearing about this sort of thing. Even the well educated military people I know take extreme pride in the fact that they would never defy command. They love the idea of completely surrendering their own morals to the military. It's a really weird and sad thing. It's similar to cultural hegemony. Somehow, we allowed the powerful to let us believe the young and powerless never questioning the morality of what they are doing is a good thing. It isn't. It makes the military more efficient, but at the cost of shame. Dont know who you know in the military, but as someone that is in the military, I would say that this is a pretty poor generalization. Also those tweets, if true, are pretty damning. It’s bloody mind-boggling if it’s true. If. It only makes any kind of sense if Trump wants to fuck off out of the Middle East entirely, bar propping up the Saudis and Israel of course. If that’s the end game then I guess, sure doing things like this, or abandoning the Kurds do that. Even being that charitable, which I feel is a stretch anyway, showing yourself as a totally unreliable and duplicitous ally is about the worst way you can go about it.
If ?
Why exactly would the Iraki prime minister lie in front of his parliament when he says the guy was here to see him ? I mean, it's not a random guy, it's the Prime Minister of a (technically) sovereign country, that doesn't have to inform the "guest" helping country of everything it's doing.
In a previously undisclosed detail one observer described as "stunning," Mahdi said Soleimani was in Baghdad to meet with him about a Saudi request for dialogue to relieve tensions in the region—not, as the U.S. has claimed, to plan attacks against American forces.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/01/05/iraqi-parliament-votes-expel-all-american-troops-and-submit-un-complaint-against-us
The government still has to approve the measure voted by parliament it seems.
By the way GH, do you now see the slight difference in political answers you get, between an assassination of stateless terrorists, and officials holding formal (high) positions ? (even if these guys are also terrorists, from the attacking party's point of view)
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On January 06 2020 03:11 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2020 03:06 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 06 2020 01:12 Stratos_speAr wrote:On January 06 2020 00:59 Mohdoo wrote:On January 06 2020 00:06 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On January 05 2020 21:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2020 11:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 05 2020 09:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Pompeo says that Europeans aren't being as helpful as he'd like relating to the assassination of Soleimani https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1213500591646945286On January 05 2020 03:53 Nouar wrote:A shame the US doesn't recognize any international institution that could hold them to account for anything. Think he's talking about stuff like that Nouar, not very helpful at all. He says you guys just don't understand. "The Brits, the French, the Germans all need to understand that what we did, what the Americans did, saved lives in Europe as well,"
"This was a good thing for the entire world, and we're urging everyone in the world to get behind what the United States is trying to do, to get the Islamic Republic of Iran to simply behave like a normal nation" A little appreciation Europeans would be nice is all I'm saying. I'm being facetious but it's pretty much on you guys to check the US by way of siding against the US in more than symbolic UN votes. Just hand-wringing and berating the buffoons in charge won't be enough. But yes they don’t fucking do anything tangible other than handwringing. The entire EU saying fuck off we don’t support this measure and we’ll actually do something tangible actually means something. What the Europeans do doesn’t tend to be anywhere near as forceful, which is a real shame. Turns out the assassination was a bit of a "whoopsie" by the military leaders dealing with Trump https://twitter.com/KBAndersen/status/1213663996152340481Probably not much of a consolation but the hand-wringing seems to be the go to strategy for Democrats and even the military too. It's a bit strange that the officials feel obliged to follow up on the orders and carry out the strike they never really wanted to do, out of some sort of honor duty to the chain of command, but have no honor issue with immediately telling the press about these sensitive decisions afterwards, because they were 'flabbergasted' and feel bad. How about they don't do the strike in the first place if it was an outlandish option. Yeah and you'll see military folks wipe a year from their eye hearing about this sort of thing. Even the well educated military people I know take extreme pride in the fact that they would never defy command. They love the idea of completely surrendering their own morals to the military. It's a really weird and sad thing. It's similar to cultural hegemony. Somehow, we allowed the powerful to let us believe the young and powerless never questioning the morality of what they are doing is a good thing. It isn't. It makes the military more efficient, but at the cost of shame. Dont know who you know in the military, but as someone that is in the military, I would say that this is a pretty poor generalization. Also those tweets, if true, are pretty damning. It’s bloody mind-boggling if it’s true. If. It only makes any kind of sense if Trump wants to fuck off out of the Middle East entirely, bar propping up the Saudis and Israel of course. If that’s the end game then I guess, sure doing things like this, or abandoning the Kurds do that. Even being that charitable, which I feel is a stretch anyway, showing yourself as a totally unreliable and duplicitous ally is about the worst way you can go about it. If ? Why exactly would the Iraki prime minister lie in front of his parliament when he says the guy was here to see him ? I mean, it's not a random guy, it's the Prime Minister of a (technically) sovereign country, that doesn't have to inform the "guest" helping country of everything it's doing. Show nested quote +In a previously undisclosed detail one observer described as "stunning," Mahdi said Soleimani was in Baghdad to meet with him about a Saudi request for dialogue to relieve tensions in the region—not, as the U.S. has claimed, to plan attacks against American forces. https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/01/05/iraqi-parliament-votes-expel-all-american-troops-and-submit-un-complaint-against-usThe government still has to approve the measure voted by parliament it seems. By the way GH, do you now see the slight difference in political answers you get, between an assassination of stateless terrorists, and officials holding formal (high) positions ? (even if these guys are also terrorists, from the attacking party's point of view)
I'm unclear on the point you're making? Been a long week for me.
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On January 06 2020 03:19 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2020 03:11 Nouar wrote:On January 06 2020 03:06 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 06 2020 01:12 Stratos_speAr wrote:On January 06 2020 00:59 Mohdoo wrote:On January 06 2020 00:06 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On January 05 2020 21:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2020 11:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 05 2020 09:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Pompeo says that Europeans aren't being as helpful as he'd like relating to the assassination of Soleimani https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1213500591646945286On January 05 2020 03:53 Nouar wrote:
[quote]
A shame the US doesn't recognize any international institution that could hold them to account for anything. Think he's talking about stuff like that Nouar, not very helpful at all. He says you guys just don't understand. "The Brits, the French, the Germans all need to understand that what we did, what the Americans did, saved lives in Europe as well,"
"This was a good thing for the entire world, and we're urging everyone in the world to get behind what the United States is trying to do, to get the Islamic Republic of Iran to simply behave like a normal nation" A little appreciation Europeans would be nice is all I'm saying. I'm being facetious but it's pretty much on you guys to check the US by way of siding against the US in more than symbolic UN votes. Just hand-wringing and berating the buffoons in charge won't be enough. But yes they don’t fucking do anything tangible other than handwringing. The entire EU saying fuck off we don’t support this measure and we’ll actually do something tangible actually means something. What the Europeans do doesn’t tend to be anywhere near as forceful, which is a real shame. Turns out the assassination was a bit of a "whoopsie" by the military leaders dealing with Trump https://twitter.com/KBAndersen/status/1213663996152340481Probably not much of a consolation but the hand-wringing seems to be the go to strategy for Democrats and even the military too. It's a bit strange that the officials feel obliged to follow up on the orders and carry out the strike they never really wanted to do, out of some sort of honor duty to the chain of command, but have no honor issue with immediately telling the press about these sensitive decisions afterwards, because they were 'flabbergasted' and feel bad. How about they don't do the strike in the first place if it was an outlandish option. Yeah and you'll see military folks wipe a year from their eye hearing about this sort of thing. Even the well educated military people I know take extreme pride in the fact that they would never defy command. They love the idea of completely surrendering their own morals to the military. It's a really weird and sad thing. It's similar to cultural hegemony. Somehow, we allowed the powerful to let us believe the young and powerless never questioning the morality of what they are doing is a good thing. It isn't. It makes the military more efficient, but at the cost of shame. Dont know who you know in the military, but as someone that is in the military, I would say that this is a pretty poor generalization. Also those tweets, if true, are pretty damning. It’s bloody mind-boggling if it’s true. If. It only makes any kind of sense if Trump wants to fuck off out of the Middle East entirely, bar propping up the Saudis and Israel of course. If that’s the end game then I guess, sure doing things like this, or abandoning the Kurds do that. Even being that charitable, which I feel is a stretch anyway, showing yourself as a totally unreliable and duplicitous ally is about the worst way you can go about it. If ? Why exactly would the Iraki prime minister lie in front of his parliament when he says the guy was here to see him ? I mean, it's not a random guy, it's the Prime Minister of a (technically) sovereign country, that doesn't have to inform the "guest" helping country of everything it's doing. In a previously undisclosed detail one observer described as "stunning," Mahdi said Soleimani was in Baghdad to meet with him about a Saudi request for dialogue to relieve tensions in the region—not, as the U.S. has claimed, to plan attacks against American forces. https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/01/05/iraqi-parliament-votes-expel-all-american-troops-and-submit-un-complaint-against-usThe government still has to approve the measure voted by parliament it seems. By the way GH, do you now see the slight difference in political answers you get, between an assassination of stateless terrorists, and officials holding formal (high) positions ? (even if these guys are also terrorists, from the attacking party's point of view) I'm unclear on the point you're making? Been a long week for me.
I was talking about the exchange below (notably the "sorta" part), but it seems the week was long for me as well, as it seems I read too fast and missed your last sentence talking about the strategic implication rather than the moral ones, which is correct and the point I tried to make afterwards. My mistake.
While morality is already long gone with these drone strikes, I didn't expect them to disregard legality as well. What was a grey area is in this case completely in the red.
(note : Trump now threatening war crimes by targeting cultural sites is... now a real legal issue as well if he wants foreign support...)
On January 03 2020 23:17 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2020 23:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 03 2020 23:01 Gorsameth wrote:On January 03 2020 22:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 03 2020 22:38 stilt wrote:
Even for american standarts, this murder is madness, I hope usa pays for this as should any nations, the damages they did in middle east/north africa are terribles and americans prove once again they are a scourge for peace.
The worst is its motivation is purely electoral, what a mess, Trump was at least more isolationnist than the democrats which was really good, he just screwed badly, it might be the great disaster of his mandate.
The worst is obviously for the iranians, now they risk seeing liberals and americans imposing the liberal democracy by murders and rapes while dealing with the religious fanatism of the mollahs. After Obama assassinated an American kid with a drone it became pretty clear there were no "better angels" to appeal to anymore. So then when Trump had commandos murder that kid's 8 year old little sister, no one even noticed. Everyone: Talk about Trump killing a foreign general GH: Hey remember that time Obama killed a kid. ... stilt: "Even for american standarts, this murder is madness" GH: Sorta? I'm saying Trump had commandos kill an 8 year old girl and no one even noticed so it's mostly the strategic implications rather than moral ones that make this "madness" non-governmental actors vs state general of a country recognized by all laws and conventions while not being at war ? You don't see any difference ? The two children were bystanders from the looks of it. They "happened" to be US citizens, which I don't give a damn about. Children from any nationalities should have the same rights, US citizens don't have holy rights granted by god and are not above the others, so if you selectively mention one or two, at least make a footnote about the others. Show nested quote +According to statistical analyses provided by Reprieve, 9 children have been killed for every targeted adult the United States has tried to assassinate, and, in numerous failed attempts to kill Ayman al-Zawahri, the CIA has killed 76 children and 29 adult bystanders. Obama didn't "kill a kid, and no one noticed", administrations have done it constantly, and collateral damage is conveniently omitted each time. This one is different and dangerous. I can understand killing terrorist leaders, if done cleanly (yes it's fucking hard). This however, was clearly a crime against a sovereign nation in the legal sense. And the madness referred to is about the implications of it, not the legality. You were already at war with Al-Qaeda. You were not, officially, with Iran. The consequences could be enormous.
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Canada5565 Posts
Would prefer a better source but apparently Iran put an 80 million bounty on Trump. "During the televised funeral of the top Iranian, official state broadcasters said one US dollar would be tabled for every Iranian in the country, with the cash going to whoever killed the US President." "We can attack the White House itself, we can respond to them on the American soil," he said according to the Iranian Labour News Agency.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/iran-offers-80million-bounty-donald-21219180
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United States24740 Posts
They have been declaring "death to America" for years so I wouldn't take that threat seriously. I would take the overall threat of retaliation somewhere less central than the White House/POTUS seriously though.
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On January 06 2020 03:48 micronesia wrote:
They have been declaring "death to America" for years so I wouldn't take that threat seriously. I would take the overall threat of retaliation somewhere less central than the White House/POTUS seriously though. Bad time to be a high ranking officer in Iraq, Afghanistan or Syria right now.
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On January 06 2020 00:06 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2020 21:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2020 11:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 05 2020 09:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Pompeo says that Europeans aren't being as helpful as he'd like relating to the assassination of Soleimani https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1213500591646945286On January 05 2020 03:53 Nouar wrote:A shame the US doesn't recognize any international institution that could hold them to account for anything. Think he's talking about stuff like that Nouar, not very helpful at all. He says you guys just don't understand. "The Brits, the French, the Germans all need to understand that what we did, what the Americans did, saved lives in Europe as well,"
"This was a good thing for the entire world, and we're urging everyone in the world to get behind what the United States is trying to do, to get the Islamic Republic of Iran to simply behave like a normal nation" A little appreciation Europeans would be nice is all I'm saying. I'm being facetious but it's pretty much on you guys to check the US by way of siding against the US in more than symbolic UN votes. Just hand-wringing and berating the buffoons in charge won't be enough. But yes they don’t fucking do anything tangible other than handwringing. The entire EU saying fuck off we don’t support this measure and we’ll actually do something tangible actually means something. What the Europeans do doesn’t tend to be anywhere near as forceful, which is a real shame. Turns out the assassination was a bit of a "whoopsie" by the military leaders dealing with Trump https://twitter.com/KBAndersen/status/1213663996152340481Probably not much of a consolation but the hand-wringing seems to be the go to strategy for Democrats and even the military too. It's a bit strange that the officials feel obliged to follow up on the orders and carry out the strike they never really wanted to do, out of some sort of honor duty to the chain of command, but have no honor issue with immediately telling the press about these sensitive decisions afterwards, because they were 'flabbergasted' and feel bad. How about they don't do the strike in the first place if it was an outlandish option.
Yeah this really is just a self-own by the (probably random, fairly low level) Pentagon officials leaking this. The burden is on them to present viable options to the commander in chief, and if they fucked up they shouldn't really run to the press and tell them about it lol.
It's also pretty insignificant that a couple of administrative state officials were "stunned" and "alarmed" at the commander in chief's decision. He made a risky decision, very much on purpose. The staffers who were "stunned" are pretty much irrelevant to the conversation.
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On January 06 2020 02:53 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2020 11:08 Sermokala wrote:On January 05 2020 10:55 Erasme wrote:On January 05 2020 09:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Pompeo says that Europeans aren't being as helpful as he'd like relating to the assassination of Soleimani https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1213500591646945286On January 05 2020 03:53 Nouar wrote:A shame the US doesn't recognize any international institution that could hold them to account for anything. Think he's talking about stuff like that Nouar, not very helpful at all. He says you guys just don't understand. "The Brits, the French, the Germans all need to understand that what we did, what the Americans did, saved lives in Europe as well,"
"This was a good thing for the entire world, and we're urging everyone in the world to get behind what the United States is trying to do, to get the Islamic Republic of Iran to simply behave like a normal nation" A little appreciation Europeans would be nice is all I'm saying. I'm being facetious but it's pretty much on you guys to check the US by way of siding against the US in more than symbolic UN votes. Just hand-wringing and berating the buffoons in charge won't be enough. i dont think europeans wanted to be a part of it, just like some countries didn't want to be part of an intervention in iraq If we hold our hands over our eyes that means we can tell people we didn't know it happened and couldn't have done anything about what happened. More like the war in Iraq was illegal so we told the US to fuckoff, and that assassination was a dumb move that noone with a brain would've ordered.
This "illegal war" shtick is really dumb and you should feel bad about using it. Secondly, do you really think your country told the US to fuck off after 9/11? France declined to be involved in iraq but has been involved in the war on terror just like any other major country.
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On January 06 2020 04:01 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2020 03:48 micronesia wrote:
They have been declaring "death to America" for years so I wouldn't take that threat seriously. I would take the overall threat of retaliation somewhere less central than the White House/POTUS seriously though. Bad time to be a high ranking officer in Iraq, Afghanistan or Syria right now.
I'd be worried about working in a building with the Trump name on it. I can imagine this POTUS invading Iran because terrorists blew up his tower in Saudi Arabia though which is scary to think about.
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There's reports that US Customs are detaining any person they deem "suspicious" of Iranian descent despite if they're a US citizen. So far 60+ Iranians were held for 11+ hours at the Canadian border.
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EPT
