EPTGH you're not an authority on socialist thought. No one is going to just take your word that "its great if you'd just read these books and change your mind completly".
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1992
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Sermokala
United States13739 Posts
GH you're not an authority on socialist thought. No one is going to just take your word that "its great if you'd just read these books and change your mind completly". | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22706 Posts
On January 06 2020 15:06 Sermokala wrote: No I think you've supplied exactly the necessary response to your arguments. Attempting to dismiss them for no reason other then "they're outdated" or "they haven't bought into the ideology and the people who don't agree with me don't agree with me because they don't buy into socialism". GH you're not an authority on socialist thought. No one is going to just take your word that "its great if you'd just read these books and change your mind completly". Not no reason, iirc several people have gone over the outdated nature of the sociology (glorified or literal phrenology in a lot of cases) on which that stuff is based. Of course I'm not an authority on socialist thought and I wouldn't claim to be. People not just taking my word for it is sorta the point. They should get an actual grasp of how socialists see the world and what to do with it by engaging with the source material first hand so they can discuss it, instead of dismissing it outright. Unlike the banking model of education that is pushed under capitalism, my understanding of socialism necessitates a critical pedagogy if it wants any lasting success. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13739 Posts
I have no idea what your last paragraph is supposed to tell me. It's so far out of left field the umps are useing video replay to see if its fair or foul. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22706 Posts
On January 06 2020 16:09 Sermokala wrote: Don't you see how you are still deflecting any perceived need to defend yourself though? That other people need to change their minds on order to have a conversation with you? I have no idea what your last paragraph is supposed to tell me. It's so far out of left field the umps are useing video replay to see if its fair or foul. This perfectly demonstrates my point. I'm not deflecting. You don't have to change your mind, you have to understand the related words and concepts even if you don't agree with them. You didn't have to do that with what you currently believe because you're inundated with it from birth so you just accept it as what "is". That's cultural hegemony. Your position is not really much different than those that accepted feudalism as the immutable will of God or practically indistinguishable from God's will. It appeals to the practical failure of alternatives that opposed feudalism as evidence of the futility of seeking/improving others, the immutability of sin/greed, and in some ways, the divinity of it all(to the degree one believes in intelligent creation and rhetoric about leaders being chosen/sent by God). | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23831 Posts
On January 06 2020 12:40 Nebuchad wrote: Aw that's too bad the 4d chess Trumpers had already started to craft a narrative that this was his plan to get the troops out of Iraq faster (faster than, I suppose, just telling them to get out). Someone needs to introduce such fellows to Occam’s Razor. I did somewhat facetiously suggest such a thing was the only ‘plan’ I could even stretch myself to see, that people actually think it’s the case would be hilarious if the stakes were less high. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23831 Posts
On January 06 2020 14:13 Sermokala wrote: You say that like it hasn't failed in the past constantly or any way that it won't fail like people tell you how it fails. People don't want to murder innocent people and then march off to war to die themselves. Why does it have to involve murder anyway? I don’t see Iranian internment camps a la the Japanese ones in WW2 being at all likely a prospect. That said in hypothetical land if that occurs what then? Checks and balances clearly wouldn’t have done their job, oh well wait until we elect another President? Mass action could be lead by revolutionary thought, or firmly within the wheelhouse of capitalism. Mass strikes for example, most people who strike aren’t looking to destroy capitalism but to get a fairer share of the spoils. Of course good luck actually pressuring the government in such a manner on basically any issue, systemic orthodoxy is so bedded in that taking time off work for issues of political principle is either practically a no-go for those barely struggling to make ends meet, or culturally something vast swathes of people wouldn’t countenance. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11926 Posts
On January 07 2020 02:57 Erasme wrote: This is a typical issue with americans, you hate the word "socialism" even though the definition is quite broad. If you link bernie sanders to stalin because they're both "socialist" then you're an idiot Politics is overall very simple, but a lot of people have had a vested interest in making it appear more complex for a lot of centuries, so it's easy to lose yourself in the conflicting information that's floating around; that's what it's there for. | ||
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Yurie
11686 Posts
On January 07 2020 03:06 JimmiC wrote: One thing I was thinking about with this strike is if it opens the decision makers to being hit instead of just the soldiers, maybe that is not a bad thing. Too often the Generals and decision makers get to be safe, might change the calculations on what wars to get into and what to do if they know that it will make them personally a target. Obviously not saying it was a good choice, or well thought out, just looking for a silver lining. We never had wars in the time when Monarchs and generals were expected to lead from the front? It might have a minor positive impact but the only thing really slowing down conflicts has been MAD which is increasing in amount of nations and thus untouchable regions. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15398 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Sermokala
United States13739 Posts
On January 06 2020 17:16 GreenHorizons wrote: This perfectly demonstrates my point. I'm not deflecting. You don't have to change your mind, you have to understand the related words and concepts even if you don't agree with them. You didn't have to do that with what you currently believe because you're inundated with it from birth so you just accept it as what "is". That's cultural hegemony. Your position is not really much different than those that accepted feudalism as the immutable will of God or practically indistinguishable from God's will. It appeals to the practical failure of alternatives that opposed feudalism as evidence of the futility of seeking/improving others, the immutability of sin/greed, and in some ways, the divinity of it all(to the degree one believes in intelligent creation and rhetoric about leaders being chosen/sent by God). You are deflecting. Instead of doing what everyone else does with everything else they discuss in this thread you refuse to even begin to defend socialism or provide a single legitimate reason for people to support it. Instead according to you it's up to everyone else to do the work to change their minds. It's up to everyone else to do research on the topic. You can't be bothered to explain the holy scriptures until everyone else accepts them into their hearts and acknowledges that they are the only true word and way forward. People don't get to have real conversation with you beacuse don't have real conversation with them. You advocate for nothing real so no one can dispute them. You refuse to define anything so any talkback to your sermon gets funneled into the same "you're just an ignorant brainwashed capitalist that hasn't seen the light of socialism". If you stopped posting no arguments would ever be effected by it. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22706 Posts
On January 07 2020 07:31 Sermokala wrote: You are deflecting. Instead of doing what everyone else does with everything else they discuss in this thread you refuse to even begin to defend socialism or provide a single legitimate reason for people to support it. Instead according to you it's up to everyone else to do the work to change their minds. It's up to everyone else to do research on the topic. You can't be bothered to explain the holy scriptures until everyone else accepts them into their hearts and acknowledges that they are the only true word and way forward. People don't get to have real conversation with you beacuse don't have real conversation with them. You advocate for nothing real so no one can dispute them. You refuse to define anything so any talkback to your sermon gets funneled into the same "you're just an ignorant brainwashed capitalist that hasn't seen the light of socialism". If you stopped posting no arguments would ever be effected by it. Defend it from what? Socialism is real (as well as theory) whether you choose to engage with it in any meaningful way or not. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
On January 07 2020 07:47 Erasme wrote: Can't you just look at the US healthcare compared to the socialist healthcare most europeans countries enjoy ? Costs more does less. Unregulated capitalism is a cancer that is only equaled by china's approach Something funny about our healthcare, it's actually some what socialized. If you literally don't have the money to afford an emergency room visit, and choose to not pay, the US Government subsidizes that emergency visit with our tax paying dollars. I can easily say 95% of US Citizens don't know this. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21364 Posts
On January 07 2020 08:52 ShoCkeyy wrote: Yes but this is only when your dying. It doesn't help when you get something not immediately life threatening that you can't afford to deal with but that is going to render you unable to work, so you lose your job, lose everything then finally get sick enough to qualify for the emergency room, get fixed up just enough to not be dying and thrown back out into the cold with nothing.Something funny about our healthcare, it's actually some what socialized. If you literally don't have the money to afford an emergency room visit, and choose to not pay, the US Government subsidizes that emergency visit with our tax paying dollars. I can easily say 95% of US Citizens don't know this. Not really a viable thing. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11926 Posts
On January 07 2020 07:31 Sermokala wrote: You are deflecting. Instead of doing what everyone else does with everything else they discuss in this thread you refuse to even begin to defend socialism or provide a single legitimate reason for people to support it. Instead according to you it's up to everyone else to do the work to change their minds. It's up to everyone else to do research on the topic. You can't be bothered to explain the holy scriptures until everyone else accepts them into their hearts and acknowledges that they are the only true word and way forward. People don't get to have real conversation with you beacuse don't have real conversation with them. You advocate for nothing real so no one can dispute them. You refuse to define anything so any talkback to your sermon gets funneled into the same "you're just an ignorant brainwashed capitalist that hasn't seen the light of socialism". If you stopped posting no arguments would ever be effected by it. If by real you mean "practical" as opposed to "theoretical", then you don't want GH to advocate for socialism anymore, you want him to advocate for something more particular, anarchism, libertarian socialism, democratic socialism, marxism-leninism, maoism... Because of the types of people that I've seen make this argument in general, my initial reaction is always that they want something concrete so that they can attack it. It's very hard to defend capitalism because it's becoming increasingly apparent that capitalism, on top of being generally terrible and failing at upholding liberal ideals, is also on the verge of destroying the planet. But if instead of defending capitalism, you can just attack the concrete thing that random people with no power elaborate on forums to build an alternative, you can convince yourself that this justifies not actively fighting to create a less awful system. That being said, in your case specifically I don't know that this is what you're doing, since I remember that you reacted quite positively to democratic socialism when I presented it some time ago. So I'm getting the sense that maybe you are actually worried about which type of socialism GH would prefer. Is that accurate? If it is, I'd like to ask... why? Do you genuinely think he's a tankie or something? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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