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Northern Ireland23815 Posts
On December 06 2019 11:00 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 10:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 10:55 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 10:49 Mohdoo wrote:On December 06 2019 09:42 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 09:02 Gorsameth wrote:On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 06:06 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:
[quote]
No specifically the point of my post was that it’s still ethnic cleansing way before the ‘exterminating everyone’ point, not that it’s not ethnic cleansing because Israel aren’t ritually exterminating everyone.
What would happen? Really? There’s no justification for it, whatsoever and Israel isn’t a global power like China that we have to pay lip service to.
That neighbours aren’t exactly fans of Israel is irrelevant, the state only exists because world powers felt the Holocaust was a bit shit, that people descended from those people treat another people as they do is a disgrace anyway but especially informed by that.
First I think it is a huge issue if we are only willing to crack down on people doing horrible things that are not big enough economic powers that it does not hurt us. China is rounding up people of a specific ethnicity, to put them in camps for "reeducation" and not all of them make it out. It is state sponsored organized and actively concealed. It is done to their own citizens and those people provide no threat to them, other than that they worship a different god than the communist party of China. As I started off I don't know enough about the situation in Israel to make a determination about whether or not what they are doing is ethnic cleansing so I don't want to be put in a position of defending them when I'm not sure that I would if I knew more. What I do know is it is far more complex because there are actually large groups of people who want them wiped from the planet, and they still don't even have a peace agreement with Palestine. There is no simple solution to Israel or Palestine as both groups feel that they have rights to the land for holy reasons and both seem willing to kill the other. Right now Israel and the Jews have more might there so they are abusing it, 70 years ago that wasn't the case, 200 years before that no, 1000 years ago no, and so on. It is a deep seeded religious war that scholars who have studied it there whole lives don't agree and don't have any good solutions for solving it. The China one is simple, they should just stop their ethnic cleansing and stop trying to eradicate a entire culture of people. Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018. 5287 people were killed during Venezuelan security operations in 2018, and those are the "registered" number of extrajudicial killings linked to "resistance to authority", They include such crimes as a starving indigenous tribe trying to get food aid and being shot. Can you imagine how many go unreported by the government supported colectivo's? It is disturbing to say the least. There is a reason why so many Jews through out the world think this type of talk is just people hiding their antisemitism because Hamas has declared Jihad and does want to wipe Israel from the map, so does Iran. Many of them remember actually being rounded up and sent to gas chambers, or have direct relatives who did. Does that justify some of their governments heinous acts, no it doesn't. And the center and the left with-in Israel itself is trying to fight that right now. People should be supporting the people within the country (that make up a huge %) that want to do the right thing instead of denouncing the whole country and acting as if they are evil. I have yet to hear anyone say "Venezuela is ethnic cleansing", in fact there is way way to many people on the left who support Maduro and justify his heinous acts. If you want to be about human rights great, we all should be, but it shouldn't be about human rights of the people on the left or right. It should be about human rights of everyone. And sadly the far right does not have exclusive rights to being horrible horrible people who do horrible things, the far left has a pretty ugly history and sadly current record as well. Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out. Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Israel's issues go well beyond Netanyahu. They have been hiding from any form of criticism against the state, not the people, by shouting antisemitism for a long time. And yes as always there are other countries that also do bad things, they are also still bad. More then 1 country can be bad and we can be mad at all of them at once. I totally agree with your second point, in fact it was my point. So lets not keep banging the Israel drum and go after them all. Because when you single out Israel and not the other bad actors it does become to look and feel a lot like antisemitism. Israel is a particularly bad actor in the region. Worse than Iran and probably equal to Saudi Arabia in terms of "ruining the world". I agree that they are bad actor, I'm not sure particularly. Saudi Arabia, Iran Syria, Egypt and Iraq all have done some pretty terrible things over time and recently. And what is your purposed solution to the problem? None of those countries have a US rhetoric of ‘they’re our greatest ally’ and policies that push out from that. And we know the US isn't doing it out of the goodness of their heart, and Israel does not have oil. So why is that? And further more what do you think happens to the Israeli people without US support?
I don’t know, hopefully what they deserve from their own behaviour but I doubt that’ll come to pass
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On December 06 2019 11:02 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 10:58 Aquanim wrote:On December 06 2019 10:45 Wombat_NI wrote:...
Who cares? It’s bollocks where the US talks about Israel being their ‘greatest ally’(despite doing fucking nothing to help the US in any foreign entaglement)
It’s not complicated at all, but yet it still persists anyway.Hm wonder why.
I agree that it's not complicated whether Israel is in any way morally justified in occupying Palestine etc. That part is not complicated. The actual real-life consequences of them stopping or being made to stop, on the other hand, I would expect to be very complicated indeed. Which doesn't mean they shouldn't. It would just be the first step towards fixing the problems in that part of the world, with a fair few difficult steps to go. Where’s the complexity? It’s really not complicated at all Don’t throw non Jews into substandard accommodations of various kinds, don’t expand your settlements beyond previously agree borders etc There’s nothing complicated about this whatsoever
Read my post again. I didn't say what they should morally do is complicated. I said the consequences of doing those things are complicated.
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On December 06 2019 10:58 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 10:55 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 10:49 Mohdoo wrote:On December 06 2019 09:42 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 09:02 Gorsameth wrote:On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 06:06 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 00:23 JimmiC wrote:[quote] Which is why it early to proclaim it as happening, he could happen, but treating a presumption like a fact is very dangerous. There is a ton of people against what the right in Israel is doing in the west bank as well. Also, there is a real threat to all the jews in Israel. What would happen if all the countries pulled their support tomorrow? In current news on the impeachment NPR had a great break down on the phone record's. They show the dates and times of the call's between Giuliani and the white house. Nunes calls and the mystery "-1" number that everyone thinks is Trump but has yet to be confirmed. If it is confirmed it will be another nail in the coffin for non partisan people and sadly probably meaningless to everyone who still support trump. https://www.npr.org/2019/12/04/784819728/giuliani-nunes-and-1-a-look-at-what-the-impeachment-report-phone-records-mean No specifically the point of my post was that it’s still ethnic cleansing way before the ‘exterminating everyone’ point, not that it’s not ethnic cleansing because Israel aren’t ritually exterminating everyone. What would happen? Really? There’s no justification for it, whatsoever and Israel isn’t a global power like China that we have to pay lip service to. That neighbours aren’t exactly fans of Israel is irrelevant, the state only exists because world powers felt the Holocaust was a bit shit, that people descended from those people treat another people as they do is a disgrace anyway but especially informed by that. First I think it is a huge issue if we are only willing to crack down on people doing horrible things that are not big enough economic powers that it does not hurt us. China is rounding up people of a specific ethnicity, to put them in camps for "reeducation" and not all of them make it out. It is state sponsored organized and actively concealed. It is done to their own citizens and those people provide no threat to them, other than that they worship a different god than the communist party of China. As I started off I don't know enough about the situation in Israel to make a determination about whether or not what they are doing is ethnic cleansing so I don't want to be put in a position of defending them when I'm not sure that I would if I knew more. What I do know is it is far more complex because there are actually large groups of people who want them wiped from the planet, and they still don't even have a peace agreement with Palestine. There is no simple solution to Israel or Palestine as both groups feel that they have rights to the land for holy reasons and both seem willing to kill the other. Right now Israel and the Jews have more might there so they are abusing it, 70 years ago that wasn't the case, 200 years before that no, 1000 years ago no, and so on. It is a deep seeded religious war that scholars who have studied it there whole lives don't agree and don't have any good solutions for solving it. The China one is simple, they should just stop their ethnic cleansing and stop trying to eradicate a entire culture of people. Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018. 5287 people were killed during Venezuelan security operations in 2018, and those are the "registered" number of extrajudicial killings linked to "resistance to authority", They include such crimes as a starving indigenous tribe trying to get food aid and being shot. Can you imagine how many go unreported by the government supported colectivo's? It is disturbing to say the least. There is a reason why so many Jews through out the world think this type of talk is just people hiding their antisemitism because Hamas has declared Jihad and does want to wipe Israel from the map, so does Iran. Many of them remember actually being rounded up and sent to gas chambers, or have direct relatives who did. Does that justify some of their governments heinous acts, no it doesn't. And the center and the left with-in Israel itself is trying to fight that right now. People should be supporting the people within the country (that make up a huge %) that want to do the right thing instead of denouncing the whole country and acting as if they are evil. I have yet to hear anyone say "Venezuela is ethnic cleansing", in fact there is way way to many people on the left who support Maduro and justify his heinous acts. If you want to be about human rights great, we all should be, but it shouldn't be about human rights of the people on the left or right. It should be about human rights of everyone. And sadly the far right does not have exclusive rights to being horrible horrible people who do horrible things, the far left has a pretty ugly history and sadly current record as well. Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out. Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Israel's issues go well beyond Netanyahu. They have been hiding from any form of criticism against the state, not the people, by shouting antisemitism for a long time. And yes as always there are other countries that also do bad things, they are also still bad. More then 1 country can be bad and we can be mad at all of them at once. I totally agree with your second point, in fact it was my point. So lets not keep banging the Israel drum and go after them all. Because when you single out Israel and not the other bad actors it does become to look and feel a lot like antisemitism. Israel is a particularly bad actor in the region. Worse than Iran and probably equal to Saudi Arabia in terms of "ruining the world". I agree that they are bad actor, I'm not sure particularly. Saudi Arabia, Iran Syria, Egypt and Iraq all have done some pretty terrible things over time and recently. And what is your purposed solution to the problem? None of those countries have a US rhetoric of ‘they’re our greatest ally’ and policies that push out from that.
To be fair Saudi Arabia has been referred to by the US as "a great ally" and that "The United States intends to remain a steadfast partner of Saudi Arabia" after they cut that journalist up into pieces.
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Northern Ireland23815 Posts
On December 06 2019 11:03 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 11:02 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 10:58 Aquanim wrote:On December 06 2019 10:45 Wombat_NI wrote:...
Who cares? It’s bollocks where the US talks about Israel being their ‘greatest ally’(despite doing fucking nothing to help the US in any foreign entaglement)
It’s not complicated at all, but yet it still persists anyway.Hm wonder why.
I agree that it's not complicated whether Israel is in any way morally justified in occupying Palestine etc. That part is not complicated. The actual real-life consequences of them stopping or being made to stop, on the other hand, I would expect to be very complicated indeed. Which doesn't mean they shouldn't. It would just be the first step towards fixing the problems in that part of the world, with a fair few difficult steps to go. Where’s the complexity? It’s really not complicated at all Don’t throw non Jews into substandard accommodations of various kinds, don’t expand your settlements beyond previously agree borders etc There’s nothing complicated about this whatsoever Read my post again. I didn't say what they should morally do is complicated. I said the consequences of doing those things are complicated.
Why are the consequences of not shoving Palestinians into shit living conditions an issue of complexity at all?
You can just choose not to do that. Just because one’s intransigence has had you do that for decades doesn’t really make the actual issue particularly complex
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Northern Ireland23815 Posts
On December 06 2019 11:05 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 11:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 11:00 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 10:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 10:55 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 10:49 Mohdoo wrote:On December 06 2019 09:42 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 09:02 Gorsameth wrote:On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
[quote]
Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out.
Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Israel's issues go well beyond Netanyahu. They have been hiding from any form of criticism against the state, not the people, by shouting antisemitism for a long time. And yes as always there are other countries that also do bad things, they are also still bad. More then 1 country can be bad and we can be mad at all of them at once. I totally agree with your second point, in fact it was my point. So lets not keep banging the Israel drum and go after them all. Because when you single out Israel and not the other bad actors it does become to look and feel a lot like antisemitism. Israel is a particularly bad actor in the region. Worse than Iran and probably equal to Saudi Arabia in terms of "ruining the world". I agree that they are bad actor, I'm not sure particularly. Saudi Arabia, Iran Syria, Egypt and Iraq all have done some pretty terrible things over time and recently. And what is your purposed solution to the problem? None of those countries have a US rhetoric of ‘they’re our greatest ally’ and policies that push out from that. And we know the US isn't doing it out of the goodness of their heart, and Israel does not have oil. So why is that? And further more what do you think happens to the Israeli people without US support? I don’t know, hopefully what they deserve from their own behaviour but I doubt that’ll come to pass And what do you think the Israeli people deserve for their governments behavior? What do the Chinese people deserve? How about the Venezuelans?
The Israeli people whose state only exists because of colonial guilt over an eradication of their people, decides as a state to subjugate another people
So they really get what they deserve, in whatever form it takes.
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Northern Ireland23815 Posts
On December 06 2019 11:07 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 11:06 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 11:03 Aquanim wrote:On December 06 2019 11:02 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 10:58 Aquanim wrote:On December 06 2019 10:45 Wombat_NI wrote:...
Who cares? It’s bollocks where the US talks about Israel being their ‘greatest ally’(despite doing fucking nothing to help the US in any foreign entaglement)
It’s not complicated at all, but yet it still persists anyway.Hm wonder why.
I agree that it's not complicated whether Israel is in any way morally justified in occupying Palestine etc. That part is not complicated. The actual real-life consequences of them stopping or being made to stop, on the other hand, I would expect to be very complicated indeed. Which doesn't mean they shouldn't. It would just be the first step towards fixing the problems in that part of the world, with a fair few difficult steps to go. Where’s the complexity? It’s really not complicated at all Don’t throw non Jews into substandard accommodations of various kinds, don’t expand your settlements beyond previously agree borders etc There’s nothing complicated about this whatsoever Read my post again. I didn't say what they should morally do is complicated. I said the consequences of doing those things are complicated. Why are the consequences of not shoving Palestinians into shit living conditions an issue of complexity at all? You can just choose not to do that. Just because one’s intransigence has had you do that for decades doesn’t really make the actual issue particularly complex Is it your belief that there was peace before they did that? And is it your belief that all the Israelis want to do that?
Well no on both. It’s complex thing that requires a bit of work, and the Israelis don’t want to try
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On December 06 2019 11:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
The Israeli people whose state only exists because of colonial guilt over an eradication of their people, decides as a state to subjugate another people
So they really get what they deserve, in whatever form it takes.
They're probably more scared about it happening to them again than about it happening to somebody else. Not a principled or moral position under the circumstances, but one which will have to be engaged with if a more diplomatic or long-term solution is sought after than "beat Israel into line".
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Northern Ireland23815 Posts
On December 06 2019 11:11 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 11:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 11:05 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 11:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 11:00 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 10:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 10:55 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 10:49 Mohdoo wrote:On December 06 2019 09:42 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 09:02 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]Israel's issues go well beyond Netanyahu. They have been hiding from any form of criticism against the state, not the people, by shouting antisemitism for a long time.
And yes as always there are other countries that also do bad things, they are also still bad.
More then 1 country can be bad and we can be mad at all of them at once.
I totally agree with your second point, in fact it was my point. So lets not keep banging the Israel drum and go after them all. Because when you single out Israel and not the other bad actors it does become to look and feel a lot like antisemitism. Israel is a particularly bad actor in the region. Worse than Iran and probably equal to Saudi Arabia in terms of "ruining the world". I agree that they are bad actor, I'm not sure particularly. Saudi Arabia, Iran Syria, Egypt and Iraq all have done some pretty terrible things over time and recently. And what is your purposed solution to the problem? None of those countries have a US rhetoric of ‘they’re our greatest ally’ and policies that push out from that. And we know the US isn't doing it out of the goodness of their heart, and Israel does not have oil. So why is that? And further more what do you think happens to the Israeli people without US support? I don’t know, hopefully what they deserve from their own behaviour but I doubt that’ll come to pass And what do you think the Israeli people deserve for their governments behavior? What do the Chinese people deserve? How about the Venezuelans? The Israeli people whose state only exists because of colonial guilt over an eradication of their people, decides as a state to subjugate another people So they really get what they deserve, in whatever form it takes. Gotcha, so I assume the same thing for all non indigenous in North and South America?
Show me the state in either region that can do what it wants with the full support of the United States in doing so
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On December 06 2019 11:13 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 11:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
The Israeli people whose state only exists because of colonial guilt over an eradication of their people, decides as a state to subjugate another people
So they really get what they deserve, in whatever form it takes. They're probably more scared about it happening to them again than about it happening to somebody else. Not a principled or moral position under the circumstances, but one which will have to be engaged with if a more diplomatic or long-term solution is sought after than "beat Israel into line".
The
Not a principled or moral position under the circumstances, but one which will have to be engaged with if a more diplomatic or long-term solution is sought after than "beat _____ into line"
is an argument not unique to Israel, whereas the US support of Israel, in defiance of international law and global consensus, is.
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Northern Ireland23815 Posts
On December 06 2019 11:19 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 11:13 Aquanim wrote:On December 06 2019 11:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
The Israeli people whose state only exists because of colonial guilt over an eradication of their people, decides as a state to subjugate another people
So they really get what they deserve, in whatever form it takes. They're probably more scared about it happening to them again than about it happening to somebody else. Not a principled or moral position under the circumstances, but one which will have to be engaged with if a more diplomatic or long-term solution is sought after than "beat Israel into line". The Show nested quote +Not a principled or moral position under the circumstances, but one which will have to be engaged with if a more diplomatic or long-term solution is sought after than "beat _____ into line" is an argument not unique to Israel, whereas the US support of Israel, in defiance of international law and global consensus, is.
It’s a shit argument anyway. An Israel that was a light in the region and enfranchised various groups goes a long way towards defusing all this anti Israel sentiment
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On December 06 2019 11:19 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 11:13 Aquanim wrote:On December 06 2019 11:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
The Israeli people whose state only exists because of colonial guilt over an eradication of their people, decides as a state to subjugate another people
So they really get what they deserve, in whatever form it takes. They're probably more scared about it happening to them again than about it happening to somebody else. Not a principled or moral position under the circumstances, but one which will have to be engaged with if a more diplomatic or long-term solution is sought after than "beat Israel into line". The Show nested quote +Not a principled or moral position under the circumstances, but one which will have to be engaged with if a more diplomatic or long-term solution is sought after than "beat _____ into line" is an argument not unique to Israel, whereas the US support of Israel, in defiance of international law and global consensus, is.
I'd have to do some research to verify that the United States doesn't support anything else awful in defiance of international law and global consensus. And then another batch to verify what other individual countries (or cliques of countries) support awful stuff in defiance of international law and global consensus.
That having been said I'm not arguing that the United States is morally right to support Israel's occupation of Palestine et al.
On December 06 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote:
An Israel that was a light in the region and enfranchised various groups goes a long way towards defusing all this anti Israel sentiment
I consider this a very optimistic position, at least as far as anti-Israel sentiment in the Middle East goes.
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Northern Ireland23815 Posts
On December 06 2019 11:21 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 11:11 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 11:07 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 11:06 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 11:03 Aquanim wrote:On December 06 2019 11:02 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 10:58 Aquanim wrote:On December 06 2019 10:45 Wombat_NI wrote:...
Who cares? It’s bollocks where the US talks about Israel being their ‘greatest ally’(despite doing fucking nothing to help the US in any foreign entaglement)
It’s not complicated at all, but yet it still persists anyway.Hm wonder why.
I agree that it's not complicated whether Israel is in any way morally justified in occupying Palestine etc. That part is not complicated. The actual real-life consequences of them stopping or being made to stop, on the other hand, I would expect to be very complicated indeed. Which doesn't mean they shouldn't. It would just be the first step towards fixing the problems in that part of the world, with a fair few difficult steps to go. Where’s the complexity? It’s really not complicated at all Don’t throw non Jews into substandard accommodations of various kinds, don’t expand your settlements beyond previously agree borders etc There’s nothing complicated about this whatsoever Read my post again. I didn't say what they should morally do is complicated. I said the consequences of doing those things are complicated. Why are the consequences of not shoving Palestinians into shit living conditions an issue of complexity at all? You can just choose not to do that. Just because one’s intransigence has had you do that for decades doesn’t really make the actual issue particularly complex Is it your belief that there was peace before they did that? And is it your belief that all the Israelis want to do that? Well no on both. It’s complex thing that requires a bit of work, and the Israelis don’t want to try This is patently wrong. SOME Israeli's don't want to try. You might want to look into their politics, they actually have charges against the leader of the right wing and he is trying to form a government to avoid incarceration. It would be much simpler if they were all doing awful things. It also would be simpler if awful things didn't happen to their friends and family. Like I said from the start, it is complicated what we should do. Never did I say I support everything they do. I did say it is extremely frustrating that some people from the far Left simultaneously bring up how bad it is that the US supports Israel and they should condemn them AND how bad it is that the US is that US condemns and Sanctions Maduro and his cronies. So it is pretty frustrating when they are on their soap boxes condemning people for supporting politicians who support Israel while themselves actively supporting the Venezuelan government. Trying to point out hypocrisy while being hypocritical is never a good look. What the US should do is condemn bad behavior of all. It is what we should all do and it sad that we don't. Now how to fix it I have no idea. And much like in Syria I don't think making a mess and then just picking up and leaving is a great idea for the people. I really don't know what is, hopefully a new more progressive US leader can partner with the best parts of Israel and the best parts of Palestine and figure something out. However I think there is so much bad blood there we might see it this bad for 100 years or more.
I don’t recall expressing support for Venezuelan politicians
Personally I don’t care, shit behaviour is shit behaviour regardless of the justification behind it. Young me had my windows blown in by a bomb, although slept blissfully through it somehow. Never really care on the relative merits of either side over here
Never really cared as to the relative merits of Israel either, either behave like a civilised society or don’t but I’ll judge you either way
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On December 06 2019 11:29 Wombat_NI wrote:
Never really cared as to the relative merits of Israel either, either behave like a civilised society or don’t but I’ll judge you either way
To clarify what this means, which if any of the countries/regions in the Middle East do you believe "behave like a civilised society"?
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EPT
